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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:11 AM
Original message
Gore v. Clinton? no contest ...
(Note to mods: this article is in the public domain under the Fair Use laws)

source: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/29/2177/

When Democrats compare Al Gore to Hillary Clinton, they see two political titans — similar experience, similar gravitas, similar authority both to manage the labyrinthine federal government and to credibly represent the United States in the global arena.

But Hillary Clinton has always engendered bitter antipathies, like perhaps no other figure in American political life today. These come not only from the millions of Republicans who say they would “never” vote for her, but from much of the core left Democratic base as well. I’ve never quite figured out why so many on the right so loathe the Clintons. But many progressives read the June 4, 2007 cover story of The Nation magazine by Ari Berman, entitled “Hillary, Inc.,” which detailed the intricate web of the senator’s corporate connections. Much of the core left sees her as a centrist, an incrementalist, a triangulator, a hawk who would do little to challenge the unaccountable leviathan that Eisenhower’s military/industrial complex has become, a DLC Democrat who favors caution over conviction, calculation over commitment.

And with both the intensity of feelings about the Bush legacy and the rise even just since the last presidential election of the “net roots,” that core left today is quite substantial.

In addition, with Senator Clinton, the old chestnut about her ultimate “electability” seems destined to become her decisive variable. In a June 12 Los Angeles Times survey, Senator Clinton comes out 11 points ahead of any competitor to win the Democratic nomination. When matched up against Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani, however, Obama defeats Giuliani 46-41 percent, and Edwards defeats Giuliani 46- 43 percent. But Giuliani defeats Clinton by a whopping 49- 39 percent margin!

Several polls have consistently validated this result. Although a Wall Street Journal/NBC poll two weeks ago had Clinton over Giuliani 48-43 percent, three others by Gallup have had Giuliani over Clinton by an average of 5 points. This, despite some surveys reporting that voters favor a generic Democrat over a generic Republican by more than 20 points.

There is no way this does not become the defining issue for Democratic primary voters in the first three months of 2008.

Senator Clinton’s healthy and enduring advantage in the polls clearly indicates that many Democrats do like her. But in their moment of truth in the privacy of the voting booth, primary voters who think highly of her may in the end not pull the lever for her. Why not? Think the opposite of what happened to John Kerry.

Remember how, in the first three months of 2004, millions of voters who did not adore Kerry voted for him anyway, because they said they saw him as the most “electable” Democratic candidate? (Some wags observed that Democratic voters were so intent on ejecting George Bush from the White House that they voted not for the candidate they liked, but for a candidate they believed others would like in November.) Four years later, we may see almost exactly the reverse phenomenon. Millions of voters who like Hillary Clinton may vote for someone else anyway, because they will conclude, regrettably, that she “cannot win” in November.

And there really is only one possible “someone else.”
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I vote "Someone Else."
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. writers on the left seem to deny all common sense in their adoration of Al Gore
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 08:27 AM by wyldwolf
Why not be honest and avoid these 1000 word op-eds and say "Since Gore didn't support the war, we support him. We'll ignore the inconvenient truths about him - that his negatives are about as high as Clinton's, that he was heavily involved in every policy from the Clinton administration we hate, like NAFTA and Welfare reform and Iraq sanctions - and hasn't backtracked on them. We'll pretend that he isn't hated by the media and his candidacy won't start a rehash of the Clinton years. We'll pretend that just about everything we dislike Clinton for, we should dislike Gore for. Except he didn't have a constituency to please in 2002 when he opposed the Iraq war. Even though Gore had a desire to topple Saddam himself, we'll just pretend he didn't. He didn't support the war in 2002."

There. The writer didn't have to stay up until midnight to write the long piece.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. would you support Gore in the primary if he runs?
or do you prefer Hillary?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It would be a toss up for me at the moment
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 08:32 AM by wyldwolf
They're cut from the same cloth and would both govern from the center. Gore might edge Hillary in my mind only because some people think a penis makes one more electable. But there sure would be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the netroots once Gore started the job. "He fooled us!"

No, I would say, you fooled yourself.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. their paths may have been one years ago,
but he has most certainly evolved ideologically since 2000.

I think you are flat-out wrong, and gratuitously so I suspect, to suggest he would govern from the center.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. OK. Whatever you say, AK
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 08:58 AM by wyldwolf
But there is no evidence he has "evolved ideologically."

In 2000, he was pushing faith based initiatives. Has he backtracked?
Just last year on Larry King, he expressed a belief NAFTA was still a good idea despite unforeseen issues. Backtracked?
welfare reform - backtracked?
Telecom act: Backtracked?

He was always an environmentalist.

So where has he "evolved ideologically?"
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Correct
He has not proven that he has evolved ideologically. Not at all.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I consider you intelligent enough to have already done
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 09:10 AM by AtomicKitten
the research on that you are pretending to question, most already answered in his speeches and interviews since 2000, the remainder to be answered, but he most certainly deserves the benefit of the doubt until actually being allowed to answer before summarily passing judgment on what you think the answer is.

As long as I've been at DU, you have had the same 'tude towards Al Gore which leads me to conclude that you, in fact, aren't listening and aren't inclined to listen with an open mind and heart. So, please do continue to engage in the reindeer games of subtly and sometimes not so subtly trying to throw a monkey-wrench into his path.

80%+ of DU supports him and for good reason. I expected some the anarchists and generally uninformed to shoot themselves in the foot like this, you not so much.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. you are correct
Of all the research I've done, Al Gore either still supports or has not stated he no longer supports:

Welfare reform
Nafta
Faith-based initiatives
Telecom reform
... and everything else he supported in the 90s

The only reindeer games being played are by those who choose to ignore this.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. ignore what?
Your extrapolation of where you think he stands on issues?

No thanks. I'll wait to hear it from the horse's mouth rather than idle chatter here on DU.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. well, you are ignoring the fact he hasn't backtracked on those issues... and in terms of NAFTA..
...still spoke glowingly of it last summer.

I realize you're biased where Gore is concerned. So I'll continue to assume he is still in favor of everything he ever was and you can believe he isn't.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. biased?
pot.kettle.black
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. do you know the definition of "biased," AK? Do you think that is an insult?
You use pictures and images of Al Gore in your sig line. Yes, you are biased in Al Gore's favor. Nothing wrong with that. But it is a fact. You want to say I'm biased in favor of someone? The Clintons? Why, yes I am.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. clearly you don't know the definition
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 10:30 AM by AtomicKitten
It is not simply being in favor of as you seem to think but rather a slant in one direction, in this case your predisposition to summarily kick Gore and anything to do with him to the curb.

And disagreeing with you is not an inherent insult, but you are welcome to ascribe those negative connotations if you wish.

Bias Meaning and Definition

1. (v. t.) To incline to one side; to give a particular direction to; to influence; to prejudice; to prepossess.
2. (n.) A weight on the side of the ball used in the game of bowls, or a tendency imparted to the ball, which turns it from a straight line.
3. (n.) A slant; a diagonal; as, to cut cloth on the bias.
4. (n.) A leaning of the mind; propensity or prepossession toward an object or view, not leaving the mind indifferent; bent; inclination.
5. (n.) A wedge-shaped piece of cloth taken out of a garment (as the waist of a dress) to diminish its circumference.
6. (a.) Cut slanting or diagonally, as cloth.
7. (a.) Inclined to one side; swelled on one side.
8. (adv.) In a slanting manner; crosswise; obliquely; diagonally; as, to cut cloth bias.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. it describes you perfectly
To incline to one side... to give a particular direction to... A leaning of the mind; propensity or prepossession toward an object or view.. THAT is you and Al Gore.

in this case your predisposition to summarily kick Gore and anything to do with him to the curb.

I'm not at all kicking Gore to the curb. I happen to agree with just about everything is has stood for. NAFTA WAS a good idea in theory and (as he said last summer) void of unforeseen economic turns in Mexico, it would have worked like a charm.

I was in favor of welfare reform.

I was in favor of Gore's faith-based initiative.

I admire his environmental stances.

I'm just not fooled by the left's re-packaging of him
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. really?
I realize not believing your extrapolated theories about where Gore stands on issues must be disappointing, but I reserve judgment until all the facts are in.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. yes, really
I realize living in the left netroots' repackaged Al Gore fantasy must be disappointing when you realize he really hasn't backtracked on anything he did in the 90s and, indeed, confirmed his support for NAFTA less than one year ago.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. If nothing else,
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 11:13 AM by AtomicKitten
if you haven't learned by now that my opinion is often not simpatico with the "left netroots," then you haven't been paying attention.

On researching his alleged confirmation of continued support for NAFTA less than a year ago, it turns out he was actually discussing what was intended and how it turned out, not at all as you have described it; it seems you are doing a bit of "repackaging" yourself.

Even more puzzling is why you continue to denigrate him since you apparently agree with your own version of repackaging of this potential candidate.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. if nothing else...
...it appears, though, you've bought into the left netroot's rebranding of Al Gore.

On researching his alleged confirmation of continued support for NAFTA less than a year ago, it turns out he was actually discussing what was intended and how it turned out, not at all as you have described it; it seems you are doing a bit of "repackaging" yourself.

Let's examine it, then:


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORE: The best way to eliminate our influence down there is to defeat NAFTA. The best way to preserve it is to enter into this bargain, continue the lowering of the barriers. We've got a commitment that they're going to raise their minimum wage with productivity. We've got an agreement for the first time in history to use trade sanctions to compel the enforcement of their environmental standards. As they begin to develop and locate better jobs farther south, we cut down on illegal immigration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Has that happened?

GORE: Well, it's hard to say that illegal immigration got any better. It obviously got a lot worse. But it might have been worse still without the effort to try to boost the economy in Mexico.

You know, during the Clinton-Gore administration, we faced a couple of big challenges on that front. There was a financial crisis in Mexico and we took the bold step of shoring them up. And then when it came to this agreement to try to strengthen their economy and get more good jobs down there to slow down the flow of immigration, I think we did the right thing.

I think other developments in the aftermath of those years, principally the rise of China and the movement of jobs from Mexico to China and to other Asian countries, made the situation worse than it would have otherwise been. But without the agreement that was made and without the shoring up of their economy back then, it could have been much worse still.


Verbatim. Not out of context. Gore said Illegal immigration might have been worse without NAFTA, and he said NAFTA was the right thing to do to strengthen Mexico's economy. Most important of all, Gore said he thinks they did the right thing.

Even more puzzling is why you continue to denigrate him

The puzzling thing is how you continue to ignore the fact Gore has not backtracked on anything that the left finds offensive and how you think me pointing that out is "denigrating" him.

But good thing you weren't going to engage in "idle chatter on DU."

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Again, he discussed its intent and how it played out.
He made no reference to whether or not he would continue it as is or at all in the future, and isn't that the point?

Instead you are attempting to marginalize him on an issue YOU SUPPORT no less - the pinnacle of my suspicions as to your intentions - extrapolating that one interview, trying to repackage it as a policy statement for a future run at the White House.

It's almost as if you support Al Gore circa 2000 and before and resent the fact that others, the same "left netroots" you frequently butt heads with, support him now as well and somehow that just doesn't compute in your head.

This has to be the most bizarre attempt to manipulate opinion I have ever encountered at DU. I'll give you snaps for originality.

Good luck on all that.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Again, what he said was very specific - "It was a good thing."
He made no reference to whether or not he would continue it as is or at all in the future, and isn't that the point?

I've never made that contention.

This has to be the most bizarre attempt to manipulate opinion I have ever encountered at DU. I'll give you snaps for originality.

Well, I've seen more bizarre attempts than yours at keeping a head in the sand. Yours is still bizarre, though.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I am calling bullshit on a couple things
Edited on Mon Jul-02-07 01:31 PM by AtomicKitten
1) The OP's poorly veiled attack on Al Gore from the anarchist/far left.
2) Your poorly veiled attack on Al Gore from the Dem right on behalf of HRC. (Yes, I understand you LUV the DLC policies and would LUV to include Gore in on them currently, but I also know that you are trying to throw a monkeywrench in Gore's path because you rightly perceive him as a threat to HRC if he jumps into the race.)

* Together, a match made in hell. Two positions so severely embedded with head in sand, it's pathetic. Trying to hamstring a candidate even before he declares by putting words in his mouth and offering it up for consumption by the sheep so willing to exude the outrage but not willing to do the hard work of scrutiny. This all may be a moot issue in the end, but the machinations of some will not be forgotten.

And, again, I'll wait until Gore puts forward policy positions before summarily kicking him to the curb, but thanks for your concern.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. Maybe he hasn't backtracked, because he's busy with Live Earth?
If I were organizing a massive worldwide concert on behalf of my pet cause, I'd be busy too.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Reality has evolved more than Al
But that's OK; it only shows that he was right all along on what has become a central issue of our times. Always an environmentalist, but where was that issue in 2000? "Ozone Man" wouldn't/couldn't touch it.

I think the environment, no pun intended, remains at the heart of his decision whether to run. Unfortunately, global warming remains a bit of a boutique issue on the campaign trail, and Al would have to devote substantial amounts of time to issues that don't interest him nearly as much (and, where, as you note, he is not nearly as to the left as many of his admirers might think).
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. has Gore evolved ideologically?
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 09:33 AM by welshTerrier2
from the same article linked in the OP:

He discussed the relevance of Marshall McLuhan to our present predicaments, and the overwhelming dominance today of images over ideas. He lamented that the “well-informed citizenry” envisioned by our framers has degenerated into a “well-amused audience.” He issued a plea for all Americans to work to restore to our public square a rational policy debate within a democratic marketplace of ideas.

On a more prosaic and immediate level, he delivered a blistering critique of the Bush Administration’s Iraq debacle, its inaction on climate change, its obeisance to the rich and the powerful and the corporate elite, and its casting aside the long-standing American ethos against torture — first insisted upon, he reminded us, by George Washington. And he made my own anti-nuclear heart beat more quickly when he delivered a one-word verdict on Bush’s plans to build a new generation of nuclear weapons while hectoring countries like Iran and North Korea (and likely soon others) to forego nuclear weapons.


i look for that from a candidate. I look for the words "corporate elite". I have NOT yet read Gore's latest book but I understand it contains a substantial focus on the loss of our democracy. That's a view I consider critical in a candidate. Did Al Gore 1.0 talk about the corporate elite? Did he talk about the loss of our democracy? Whether he did or did not, these words are ringing true for many in the Party. They are words and ideas that are very appealing especially to the left.

Does this reflect an "ideological evolution"? Many seem to believe it does. Rightly or wrongly, people are seeing the "new" Al Gore as Al Gore 2.0. Will there be disenchantment when the masses learn the details on the issues you mentioned? I doubt it. Contrary to what many centrist propagandize, the left is not looking for "perfection" any more than anyone else is. It looks like Gore's their man because he is speaking out about some of the most critical issues including corporate abuses of our political processes and the resultant loss of our democracy.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. has he?
On a more prosaic and immediate level, he delivered a blistering critique of the Bush Administration’s Iraq debacle,

Which I addressed in my first reply in this thread.

its obeisance to the rich and the powerful and the corporate elite,

Al Gore was never about empowering the "powerful and the corporate elite." :shrug:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. i don't think that's responsive to what i wrote
i was not emphasizing Iraq in what I wrote. its inclusion in the extract was to make the points I highlighted which did not pertain to Iraq at all.

1. Gore is talking about the loss of our democracy. you didn't address that at all in your response. My point is that this is a very compelling theme for many on the left and I'm not at all aware Gore had made this a part of his earlier political life.

2. Your statement that Al Gore was never about empowering the "powerful and the corporate elite." also misses the point. First and most importantly, whether Gore was or was not about empowering the corporate elite in his earlier political life, I am not aware he spoke in terms like obeisance to the rich and the powerful and the corporate elite before now. Regardless of his previous views on the corporate elite, he did not raise the issue in a "visible" and passionate way. I think the left is responding to the powerful words he's now using. And it seems reasonable to conclude his words and his passion for them reflect an important ideological change and a new awareness about the depth of the problem. And second, I'm not sure many on the left who are supporting Gore would agree with your statement, even based on some of the very examples you provided above, that Al Gore 1.0 was not about empowering the "powerful and the corporate elite." Think Nafta. Think Telecommunications Act. Both of those examples do concern me.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. it was completely responsive
Gore is talking about the loss of our democracy. you didn't address that at all in your response.

So? In the 90s, he was all about Democracy, and the loss he is referring to was not a reality then. It isn't relevant in a discussion about his views now vs. then.

Your statement that Al Gore was never about empowering the "powerful and the corporate elite." also misses the point. First and most importantly, whether Gore was or was not about empowering the corporate elite in his earlier political life, I am not aware he spoke in terms like obeisance to the rich and the powerful and the corporate elite before now.

So, your contention is because he is using revolutionary rhetoric, he's somehow a revolutionary. I had an interesting conversation with Aaron Banks of NDN last spring on this very subject. He says because Al Gore uses the language of the left is hardly an indicator of any leftward turn. Banks knows Gore.

Al Gore STILL thinks NAFTA was a grand plan. And void of any statements to contrary, he must still think the telecom act was awesome, too.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. perceptions and realities ...
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 10:41 AM by welshTerrier2
a couple of points ...

you stated "in the 90's, he was all about Democracy." I want to put some focus on not just the reality of Gore's positions but the perception of them as well. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that, even IF Gore has not "evolved ideologically", there are reasons many perceive that he has. I can honestly tell you, whether through my own ignorance or otherwise, that I have ZERO AWARENESS what your statement means. Al was "all about Democracy in the 90's". Maybe so. I assure you I could not make that case. Do you agree there is NO PUBLIC PERCEPTION to support that view. And beyond perception, what case would you make for that statement?

As to your second point, keeping in mind that I have NOT endorsed Gore, it remains to be seen what is in Gore's heart. Speaking only of PERCEPTION, it seems you are acknowledging that Gore's rhetoric is "the language of the left". So, at a minimum, it seems to me, you've provided at least some legitimacy for the left's reaction to that rhetoric. Is it all just for show? Does it matter? Is it fair to conclude that talking the talk is, in itself, a revolutionary act? Is speech and "framing" not engaging in the battle?

I think that your painting the left as "bandwagoning" behind Gore with no basis at all beyond his Iraq stand falls short of the facts. Gore is indeed speaking to issues most of us have not heard him address before and we certainly have not heard him address these issues with the same language or the same passion. That's not something to be dismissed lightly. I have raised, in numerous posts I've made about Gore, some of the very issues you've raised. Who is the real Al Gore is not as clear as I would like it to be. But the guy is not yet a candidate. My counsel to the bandwagon crowd is that we have an obligation to learn more. It's not a criticism; it's not an endorsement. Perhaps the facts on his "corporate issues" are as you state them; or perhaps Al Gore 2.0 has somehow found himself standing in front of a juggernaut that he is more than willing to lead. In the end, I believe we are seeing a new Al Gore. That doesn't mean he's perfect and that doesn't mean we don't need to learn more.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. that is exactly what this this thread has become
because Al Gore didn't support the Iraq war and has shown great environmental leadership, the left has a perception he has become reborn somehow.

But Gore was ALWAYS a champion if the environment. So where is the evidence of his rebirth? NAFTA? Still supports it. Welfare reform and the Telecom act? He helped push it through and has never backtracked on it. For a group of people (the left) who claim to not be one issue voters, it is amazing the amount of teeth gnashing you do over Hillary not apologizing for her war vote, but you give Gore a pass for everything else you deplore.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Hillary is not using the rhetoric of the left ...
Edited on Sat Jun-30-07 10:50 AM by welshTerrier2
maybe if people heard her "speaking to their issues", she would have more support.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. but Al Gore is, hence the perception.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. what is Gore's motive?
is Al Gore using the language of the left to dupe the left into supporting him should he run? Or is his use of this language and the passion he's displayed a sincere statement of his views and values?

If it's a sincere statement of his views and values, i.e. his focus on the corporate elite and on the shortcomings of the media and on the loss of democracy, why would you see that as not values "the left" should endorse? You seem to be arguing that Gore has created a false PERCEPTION about who he really is. He's used the language and yet you continue to paint the left as not basing their newfound support for Gore on something real.

Is it real or isn't it? Making the case about the corporate elite and making the case about the loss of democracy does NOT necessitate that Gore has reversed his views on NAFTA. Would I prefer he did? Yes. Is it reasonable to accept him in spite of this flaw in his platform? Are you arguing the left should only accept perfect candidates? There are reasons to stand behind the idea of Gore 2.0. To argue that it's the same old Al seems inconsistent with his rhetoric at a minimum and very possibly the reality as well.
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Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Well said. I support Gore and I think he would be elected (again). But
I'm fully prepared to be disappointed in some particulars by the actions (or inactions) of a Gore administration. The problems left behind by Bush - left to be faced any Democratic President - are monumental and some will probably turn out badly despite the best efforts of any new President.

As for the matter of "evolving," our times are evolving into some serious crises. The "corporate elites" in their Lear jets and gated compounds are selling the country out, and I think Gore understands that. I dislike his association with NAFTA, but I find him to be a man who is constantly thinking ahead and who has shown great character and integrity in how he has spent his life since 2000. I wish he were perfect, but I'll take him "warts and all" as the best now standing among us.

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churchofreality Donating Member (545 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. Besides, he already lost (or won) and he is a tired act
I love what he does, what he stands for, etc, but the guy is a bore, is about as long winded as Kerry, and is condescending and pompous.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. thanks for repeating a RW meme
condescending and pompous

Hardly.

But this rhetoric does demonstrate the very thin line between our wingnuts and theirs.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. You sound exactly like a Republican.
"I love what he does, what he stands for, etc, but the guy is a bore, is about as long winded as Kerry, and is condescending and pompous."

Oh yeah, Gore really came across as pompous on Oprah. :eyes: Gimme a break.

But thanks for continuing to cop such a shit attitude about Democratic candidates.

And good luck making it to 1000 posts.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. What does he stand for that you love?
Was it his vision to champion the Internet democratizing information and thereby empowering you to post your wisdom for all the world to see, for which the MCM trashed and slandered him relentlessly because he took some of their power and gave it to the American People?

Could it have been his vision and efforts to save you, your family and all your friends lives by warning of the looming catastrophe of global warming climate change, for which his documentary won two Academy Awards and earned him a Nobel Peace Prize nomination?

Maybe it was his prescience in warning of the folly and immorality of going into a premeditated war with Iraq which would only weaken our efforts of actually fighting terrorism, while damaging our standing with the very allies we so desperately need for that endeavor?

Possibly it was his scathing speech attacking the Bush Administration for their enabling of torture putting our troops lives in even more jeopardy while simultaneously hurting any chances of winning hearts and minds, torture being something no President has condoned going back to the days of George Washington?

Perhaps it was his defending the American People's right to privacy by forcefully attacking the Bush Administration for possibly illegally wiretapping you, your family and all your friends along with the rest of the American People without any judicial oversight?

Apparently whether he won or lost means nothing to you so I'm curious as to what it is you love about him, because I can't tell much difference from your loving post from those of the people that hate him.


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churchofreality Donating Member (545 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Look, I know the media was unfair to him, but he brought some of it on
Why can everyone trash Hillary and it's OK, but you dare say anything about Al Gore...

Face it, he turned alot of people off because of his personality. He should have smoked Bush.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I'm not trashing Hillary, I'm just asking questions,
for which I haven't gotten any answers. I listed only a few things I love about him, I thought some of them might apply to you as well, what do you love about Al Gore?

Regarding smoking Bush, their was a perfect storm of events which made that nearly impossible, and one of the primary underlying causes of it was his empowering you and the rest of the American People by his championing of the Internet.
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churchofreality Donating Member (545 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-03-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I think he is extermely smart and passionate.
He has been outspoken against the war and his environmental record is outstanding.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Ok, now I know the real reason you're on DU. Enjoy your short stay.
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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. I will vote for Hillary if she gets the nom.
but I have a fear that she will never win the presidency simply beacause she is a woman. The writer states that they never quite figured out why so many on the right loathe her, but I fear the answer is quite simple....she is a strong WOMAN. I conducted my own little survey of every rightwinger I know by asking the question of why do you hate Hillary. Not one person could give me an answer with any substance, in fact most of them couldn't answer at all. Lacking an informed reason to loathe her leads me to believe that the hatred stems from old school sexism that our so-called evolved society refuses to admit. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the christian right (and possibly the christian left) feel this way because the religion teaches a level of subserviance to women. Roots go deep, especially religious ones, and I fear that the majority of our society has a bad case of root rot.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Agree with the conclusion, but there is SO much wrong with that article
I'll just start at the top.

When Democrats compare Al Gore to Hillary Clinton, they see two political titans — similar experience, similar gravitas, similar authority both to manage the labyrinthine federal government and to credibly represent the United States in the global arena.


No, I don't see a "political titan" in Hillary - she does NOT have similar experience to Gore, he was VP and actually negotiated agreements with international leaders, actually accomplished things when he was in office. He really did "take the lead" on visionary initiatives like funding ARPANet. What has Hillary really led on besides labeling video games for explicit content, and a health care initiative that failed (but was initially based on elements of the successful S-CHIP program that was initiated by John Kerry and pushed across the goal line by Ted Kennedy)?

Much of the core left sees her as a centrist, an incrementalist, a triangulator, a hawk who would do little to challenge the unaccountable leviathan that Eisenhower’s military/industrial complex has become, a DLC Democrat who favors caution over conviction, calculation over commitment.


Mostly true, but I don't like the inclusion of "incrementalist" in with those others, because it is not related. Nothing in politics happens unless there is extremely broad consensus (where do we have that today?) or by incrementalism. Being a realist that incrementalism is necessary would actually be a point in Hillary's favor - but it hardly distinguishes her from Gore or any other politician who has any chance at all.

Finally, the stuff at the end of your excerpt about people voting for Kerry because he was "electable" rather than because they thought he was the best candidate, is just an old excuse that tries to leave the door open that another candidate really could have done better in the general. My own experience, my own decision in 2004 and of people I have talked to, people really did like Kerry. IMO he did best in the debates I watched - in terms of what I wanted to hear and the way he presented himself.

Perhaps someday someone will produce some hard evidence backing up that slam against Kerry and those of us who chose him on the merits. Maybe then I'll shut up about it, but for now it just ticks me off every time I see that, because it seems to marginalize those of us who chose Kerry for Kerry - and that's a lot of people.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. incrementalism
i've used the term regularly over the last few months to describe, not just Hillary, but the Democratic Party as well.

I use the term because I believe, regardless of currently popular perceptions or whether Democrats "have the votes", that leadership demands vision. It demands a bold agenda to address the great problems that confront us. It demands courage to speak out beyond the "safe" status quo. The last energy bill the Democrats jsut passed was a pathetic example of incrementalism. Could they have passed a better bill? Maybe not. But they didn't even try. The bill will make almost ZERO reductions in our CO2 output by the target year of 2020. It was a bill that "sounded good" but did nothing to address the crisis we face.

Does this mean I expect the Democrats to accomplish the impossible? Of course not. No one is telling them to ignore the realities. The problem with today's Democratic Party and the reason I see most Democrats as incrementalists is because they are failing to educate Americans on where we need to go. They are failing to stray more than a millimeter or two off the current path. They are unwilling to recognize and call for some of the radical changes I believe this country badly needs. You are not "being a realist" by believing that incrementalism is necessary; you are failing to LEAD the country in the right direction. Changes won't happen overnight but they won't happen at all if our leaders don't lead. We're rapidly running out of time. Americans are already fed up with the political process because they see it as political posturing vacant of big ideas and real solutions. Same old same old is not much of a political strategy.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-30-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
33. i suggest that Gore dissenters go back and view the speeches that
he has given in the past 3 or 4 years on a variety of topics. Also read An Assault on Reason, a lesson on his current ideals and beliefs. Then go back and read or re-read Earth in the Balance and see how much that he was declaring might happen in 1992 has actually transpired. Then revisit his kindness during Katrina when W and our entire government did nada to help our own American citizens and Gore sent two airplanes paid for with his own money to rescue patients trapped in the city. He had the clout and he used it for good. After that I hope you will choose to remember that Gore has chosen to tour the world in order to stir action almost singlehandedly against the human annihilation of the entire planet. The world at large appreciates Gore's monumental achievements, just as it abhors Bush's atrocious inanities and worse. It has gone so far as to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize, which is an honor in and of itself, and much deserved.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Can't even make his argument without distortion.
"In addition, with Senator Clinton, the old chestnut about her ultimate “electability” seems destined to become her decisive variable. In a June 12 Los Angeles Times survey, Senator Clinton comes out 11 points ahead of any competitor to win the Democratic nomination. When matched up against Republican front-runner Rudy Giuliani, however, Obama defeats Giuliani 46-41 percent, and Edwards defeats Giuliani 46- 43 percent. But Giuliani defeats Clinton by a whopping 49- 39 percent margin!"

Here we have the citing of a single poll.

"Several polls have consistently validated this result."

Really? Which polls were they?

"Although a Wall Street Journal/NBC poll two weeks ago had Clinton over Giuliani 48-43 percent,"

That apprently isn't it?

"three others by Gallup have had Giuliani over Clinton by an average of 5 points."

So they averaged the last 3 Gallup polls when that wasn't done with the LA times poll? I wonder why that is? Could it be the last Gallup poll had Hillary winning? So where are the other polls that consistently show that? Why the need to manipulate data?

Half a dozen DUers argue electability in the most bitter of partisan arenas and yet they do not feel the need to distort to make their point?

So much for being about the "truth".





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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-02-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Gore's favorability ratings are much higher than Hillary's...




http://www.galluppoll.com/content/Default.aspx?ci=27019&VERSION=p

And they both have approximately the same "No opinion" %, meaning voters already know Gore and Clinton and have made up their minds...

Furthermore, Gore would beat Clinton in New Hampshire if he entered the race.

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070627/NATION/106270092/1001

"Former Vice President Al Gore is New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's worst nightmare in the nation"s first primary, a new poll shows.

If Mr. Gore got into the 2008 presidential nomination contest, he would edge out Mrs. Clinton in New Hampshire 32 percent to 26 percent and defeat the rest of the Democratic contenders, says a 7NEWS-Suffolk University poll of likely voters.

"Gore is the only Democrat, including Hillary, who can instantly melt the field," said David Paleologos, director of the Suffolk University Political Research Center, which conducted the survey.

Absent a Gore entry, Mrs. Clinton is the clear front-runner among declared Democratic candidates, with 37 percent, up from 28 percent in the same poll taken in March."


I realize you Hillary fans are scared shitless about Gore jumping in. But try not to be too obvious about it, okay? ;-)
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-03-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Heat shields up. Let the field melting begin.
I voted for Nader in 2000, but I see a real change in Gore since then. He's taken a leadership role in the global climate change issue and we need a president who can change the direction we're on rapidly. Of course he has written about this issue in 1990, but has taken a more activist role now, and is proposing a 90% CO2 emission reduction by 2050. This kind of leadership is what we need.

I would say that Dennis Kucinich is closer to my politics overall, but Gore is only a small trade-off compared to the other Democrats. If Gore doesn't run, DK will get my primary vote as a progressive Dem. So the issue for me is not whether Hillary can win as that we need Gore in the White House. And he is more electable. ;)
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