Dear Hillary and Edwards ----

The last time I checked this was still America. And everybody has a right to speak.

Just because some of the candidates are not being bought by Corporations and Lobbyist firms
doesn't not make them LESS of a candidate than you.

How dare you think you are better than they are.

And just a little reminder . . . the elections are 15 1/2 months away.
Plenty of time for your numbers to drop.

I have lost all respect for them.

I agree with you. They don't own the primary process no matter what their popularity is right now.

... what action or story has led you to start this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3373176&mesg_id=3373176

:grr:

Thats Ms. Clinton and Mr. Edwards to you.:evilgrin: Sory (The Canadian way of speaking) Translation, Sorry
I didn't mean to offend, sory.

So you don't know who they were talking about...

And Second, they are right in the sentiment...these "debates" are unwieldy, and Gravel and Kucinich are not serious candidates for the Presidency. I highly doubt they were talking about Richardson or Biden for that matter...

You also don't know what they had in mind...could be debates with different combinations of candidates...

And free speech has nothing to do with it...Gravel, Kucinich and whoever else are free to go off and have their own debates if they wish...there is no constitutional guarantee that they will be invited to every debate that is held just because they say they are a Presidential candidate...

They don't sponsor all of them I don't believe...candidates are free to go to any forum they wish

They ARE NOT better than him.

Each candidate brings a different perspective to the debate, and it's up
for Americans to decide.

And besides, aren't Edwards poll numbers tanking?
Maybe he should stay home.

I could declare I am a candidate, file my papers and then I should be invited?

No, this is not a matter of suffrage, or of one man one vote, the process we are going through is for the Party to decide who their candidate should be. There are no constitutional issues involved...each party is free to decide who gets nominated and by what method...

There is absolutely nothing preventing Gravel or whoever from getting someone to hold debate and exclude Hillary, Edwards and Obama...

I know many candidates are frustrated because the one minute thing is simply not enough time to really say anything of importance and it's reduced to soundbites. there is just so many running. But, they are all legit candidates with something of value to say.
If someone is not in the top tier does not mean their ideas are any less.

After the first debate, he suggested that they do a whole debate on one topic.

Where do you draw the line? How would you define a "legit" candidate...

they are. If people are in such an uproar about some of these "minor" candidates, then they need to act to change the laws concerning primary candidates.

There is no law that requires everyone that files papers running for President gets invited to debates...

at least imo and I think they all should be invited. I agree with you point above, where do we draw the line. But they're in the race now because there are no laws/rules that say they shouldn't be there and shouldn't be invited. Maybe there should be. Get something on record that does draw the line. Right now, they are in the race and they should be invited.

Is it your contention that they should be required to invite every single candidate? What if they only want to hear from Hillary, Obama and Edwards...should they not be allowed to do that?

after a primary has been held and then if they want to single out candidates then they should have a debate and invite only the top 3 from that primary.

They have free speech rights too right?

until a primary is held that narrows the field, I think they should ask the nine candidates to every debate. Why let the media or the sponsors dictate to the American people who they think we should vote for?
If they narrow the field without even a primary being held, then they (the Media and sponsors) are esstentially telling us: You have choices but just these three choices. That's not right.

There are candidates you've never heard of running for President.

Nice thread. :)

why "the nine"? There are dozens running. Why do you draw the line there?

There are literally dozens of people filed to run for President...

And they are not narrowing the choices...if Kucinich, Gravel etc are as legit as you say, they should not have any trouble finding someone to sponsor a debate for them as well...

It is not required that every group carry failing candidates...Kucinich and Gravel in particular are not going to be elected President...very few hold any delusion that they will be. Sorry, but I want to hear from those with the best chance. Right now I would exclude those two if I were sponsoring a debate...

Kucinich came in the top three in the last two moveon.org polls.

But you would have him excluded.

Or should we use special interest donations?

it's a straw poll for one organization.

Groups can use any criteria they want...viability is a big one...Kucinich is not a viable candidate...Gravel is not a viable candidate...the dozens of others that have filed to run as Democrats that you have never heard of are not viable candidates....

Personally, if I were arranging a debate at this point I would not invite Kucinich or Gravel...

But there is nothing preventing MoveOn from holding a debate of the three top candidates in its poll...

that factoid is meaningless.

the difference between a poll and a straw poll.

If you poll Mike Gravel's family, he comes in the top 2. Is that a good enough criterion?

And candidates are free to attend whatever debates they want...if MOveOn.org wanted to hold a debate between Gravel and Kucinich they are certainly free to do so for example...

Poll performance, fundraising, past success etc...

There are no laws governing this, no rules codifying what people the NAACP are required to invite to their debate...

If David Duke filed as a Democrat and plopped down his 5K to file with the FEC, should there then be a requirement that the NAACP invite him to their forum?

but I'm not the one proposing specific rules.

I'm curious what rules YOU would use to narrow down the field? Or do you believe the dozens of people running are all equal? Do you want to see a debate with 60-some people?

is another thing entirely.

Just because those not in the top-tier are not likely to win does not mean they have nothing meaningful to contribute.

But it does not then follow that they should be invited to every single candidate forum held....

There is absolutely nothing preventing Kucinch, Gravel or any other candidate from getting someone to sponsor a debate that excludes Hillary, Edwards, or anybody...

If they are legit, that should not be a problem.

They have gone thru the same process.

There isn't a single national registry of candidates. Candidates have to get on ballots in all 50 states.

As I've said, there are literally dozens, if not scores, of people who have "filed" somewhere to run for President. They're not all equal.

unless you don't spend more than 5000 of your own funds.

I believe Nader was the only one that ran and didn't file because he stayed under the 5k figure.

So anyone who spends 5000 or more should be invited?

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Limit your answer to 1 second please!!!

-:eyes:

I spot-checked about 10 of 'em and got all 2006 or 2007. I'll try to refine the search.

edit: there's no way to refine the search by year.

But do you think those people all should've been included in the year they ran?

Kucinich is the only candidate for single payer universal health insurance. Who will speak for the people if Kucinich is kept out of the debates by candidates that have sold themselves to the highest bidder?

who have filed, but aren't in the debates? Do you feel as passionately about them?

:eyes:

What's stopping them...

What bothers you is that people see through Kucinich's holier than thou act...and have no interest in supporting him...only fringe folks like you feel the need to insist he be included in these debates because you know otherwise he truly would be consigned to oblivion...

Kucinich is a kibitzer, constantly carping and whining from the sidelines while doing precisely nothing to progress towards the goals he says he wants to achieve....unaccomplished and unimportant...

Al From sucks!

Kucinich will lose his seat next year...voters in that district deserve a candidate that actually works for a living...

maybe hundreds. Do they all deserve to be on stage?

and I think I said yes. So I'll be consistent and say yes again.

Which brings me again to my point, although I am having trouble putting my thoughts together, that there needs to be a change in rules/laws to define when a candidate becomes prevalent enough to participate in a debate.


If there are hundreds of people running for prez, then yes, essentially they all should be allowed to debate. Everyone who files should be allowed to have their say unless there is a rule/law on the books that limits participates based on say amount of money they raised or signatures acquired, or something to that extent.

it's whoever sponsors the debate.

But do you really think a debate with 73 candidates on stage would be useful? Productive? Meaningful?

Parties can use whatever method they wish to select their candidates...that's why there are caucuses in Iowa and primaries in New Hampshire...for example.

No.

Trust Fox News? Ha.

...Because voters are not required to make a decision until election day, they remain open at this stage in the race to new information, alternative perspectives and late-breaking developments — all of which render today's poll results, to one degree or another, meaningless.

Consider this: More than two-thirds of the Democrats who voted in the 2004 Iowa caucuses didn't decide who to vote for until a month before the caucuses. Four in 10 decided in the last week. In 2004, 54% of New Hampshire Democrats decided within a week of the primary. It's no surprise, then, that in the 2004 election, John Kerry was lagging in third place until only a few weeks before the Iowa caucuses. Kerry then more than doubled his vote in Iowa and nearly quadrupled it in New Hampshire — all in less than 20 days.

Iowa's Republican caucus-goers are no different. In 1996, nearly a quarter chose their candidate on caucus night or in the preceding two days; fully 42% decided in the last 10 days. And in New Hampshire, only 12% of Republicans decided in 2000 who they would support in the primary before Jan. 1 of election year.

What a sobering thought. Millions raised, then spent, thousands of staffers, all the early spin, all the early endorsements, and all the early everything else consists mainly of campaigns trying to create metrics by which the media can measure their progress. Yet the reality is that there's not much value in the measurements at this stage of the game.
.....

In 2003, this cycle nearly buried Kerry.

Let's face it: While money in the bank, a strong organization, a capable staff and a compelling message will be vital next year when early-primary-state voters start deciding, trying to measure the variables now, for a campaign that for most hasn't even started yet, can lead to a net loss of knowledge.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-murphy5jul05,0,6805499.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail


It's kinda like how everyone thought Dean was going to win the nomination, and the man that was registering 4% in the polls swept the primaries.

It's too early to decide who is a serious candidate!

And it's definitely not up to Hillary and John.

If I file papers and spend above the $5000 required to file with the FEC, am I then a legitimate candidate and there should be a rule that every group hosting a debate be required to invite me?

to be at the debates?

It's bad enough when the MSM does it on their own. To be pushed into it to eliminate some of our OWN candidates is ..... disgusting.

there are dozens who've filed.

At this point I would not invite Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich, Laura Davis-Aaron, Michael Forrester,Dan Francis,Alfonzo Jones, John Joseph Kennedy, Karl Krueger, Sal Mohamed, Jim Prattas, and Ole Savior

the MSM is trying to stifle him because he scares the corporatists.

And I grew up in Minnesota...and i think he's Norwegian, and I'm part Norwegian...

Go Ole!!!

I am not sure of what the procedure is.

But if a group or organization is hosting a debate and only wants to invite a certain number of candidates, that is up to them.
It is not up to the candidates themselves on who should be excluded or included.

There was a religious forum last month that only the present top 3 were invited to.


I know you support Hillary, but do you really think what she said was right?
I support Biden, and there are times when I want to smack him. Like when he made a snippy comment
about Moveon.org...I emailed his campaign and told them to tell him to never say anything
negative about Moveon again, what a great organization they are, and how they can make him or break him.

Gotcha politics are here.
They got caught saying something they shouldn't have.

The reason it hit a nerve with me is because it is too early for anyone to decide who is going to be
the Dem nominee (just look at 2004)
and it is not up to them who decides. It came off sounding arrogant on their part.

I think what set it off today was Gravel, who violated the rules of the forum by directly addressing criticism to the other candidates, and they were unable, by the same rules to respond...

Gravel and in my opinion Kucinich add nothing to the debates but take time. If I were in charge of hosting a debate, right now I would not invite them...as time went by and it became apparent others were not truly viable I would winnow it down further...

but he is running and deserves respect. He brings both comedy and honesty to the discussion.
He is right when he calls out everyone that voted for the IWR. And Gravel did some great things when he was in the Senate.

Same with Kucinich. He is an idealist, and I wish
the world could be as he sees it.

Until people start dropping out of the campaign, it is up to the hosts of the debates to decide who they want to invite.

The hosts can invite who they want, and the candidates can attend whatever debates they want...

There is no requirement that all candidates be invited to all debates...otherwise there would be 30 people on that stage...

not the other candidates.

They will just refrain from going to debates not to their liking...

that you've never heard of. Do they all deserve to be on the stage?

Way too big!

Everyone running in the primaries wants to win. The way to win is for the field to get winnowed.

If you asked anyone on that stage if they wanted a couple less of their competitors in the debate, they would all say 'yes.' If you asked anyone on that stage if Gravel had a chance of winning the nomination, they would all say 'no'...maybe Gravel would say 'yes,' but I doubt it.

Clinton seemed to want to do it ASAP.

It is only 6 months to the primary...and 2 I listened to the tape a few times and your interpretation is wishful thinking trying to wiggle Edwards out of the issue...

How can you deny that, he says it right there.


It is the first line quoted by fox.

"At some point ... (unint) ... maybe in the Fall..."

As you imply...

To me, it sounded like she wanted it done ASAP, but it is definitely subjective.