Teachers are evaluated thoroughly and often, by just about all their "superiors".

It really angers me to see politicians talking about holding teachers "accountable."

Good heavens, through the years we were held accountable for every word, every action, every restroom break (how dare we go too often).

It is outrageous to think teachers are not evaluated. There is just no need for all this "merit pay" stuff. It is meant to start conducting schools like a business.

Ok, fine. Run the county offices on a business model, run the district and school offices in a business-like way.

But hire good teachers and let them teach. Provide a good curriculum, but please don't give them a script to read....if you hire good teachers they are also good communicators.

My principals were constantly keeping an eye on us. They heard from parents, they heard from the students, from other professionals who worked with us.

We had regular visits by the principal to our classroom, unannounced. Then we would meet for a summation and critique. This was often. Then we had the yearly evaluations in our permanent files.

In addition, we often worked with counselors from the school and from the county. We had to fill out forms for doctors, and if they were not well done principals heard about that as well.

We would often meet to "staff" children into special programs. The staffing would consist of at least one guidance counselor, a staffing specialist from the county who conducted the meeting, usually the principal or vice principal, and the parents at the 2nd meeting and sometimes the first as well.

We were judged by all of those people on how we conducted ourselves, how we spoke of the children's progress and needs. It was a critical bunch overall, and it was most certainly considered an evaluation tool.

In Florida we had to renew our certificates every 5 years by extended in-service hours or two college courses. In between there were trainings and faculty planning sessions as well.

There have been yearly standardized tests forever. The scores were kept on record and used as an evaluation tool. I remember years ago my students were scoring nearly off the charts at two schools where I taught. I don't know if they still use stanines, but the highest was 9. I had students regularly averaging 8 and 7 and sometimes 9 at just ordinary schools. Principals and others noticed.

It was called merit evaluation. It has been around for decades.

There is more to the push for "merit pay" than meets the eye. This whole thing in my mind is a way to need more testing materials from more companies that provide them. And the more people fail the more "materials" and "supplies" they need.

I know the DLC's main goal for years has been charter schools. Ok, I have seen good charter schools. HOWEVER, they are a school that uses public money in conjunction with the business community. It is an easy first step to turning the schools over to businesses and getting our government "out" of the "business."

You know, the "bathtub" theory...just drown the government in one. No more public schools, more profit for businesses who are getting their feet in the door. More profit for testing companies and suppliers of materials....it's the start of privatizing our once great school system which has been talked down about and tested to death.

I spent the day in the classroom with human beings, not little test taking machines. Teachers and students I talk to here now are getting angry at the constant testing, the teaching of only what is going to be on the test because there is no time for other things. The students overall know they are not getting a good rounded education. Art and music are being done away with in many cases to have more time to train for the "tests."

I think legislatures and congress need to quit trying to run the schools. Let those trained in education policies and theories do it. Hire good teachers, pay them well, let them teach.

I could just see some administrator at a for-profit school telling the parents of a learning-disabled child "Oh, I'm sorry, but it's just not profitable to educate your child".

if they don't produce they send them back to the public schools....but since they are taking the public money for their schools to get more and better materials....then the public schools are lacking funding.

It's a very effective method of getting rid of public schools.

And NCLB ain't doing a bad job of it either.

...educational and true.

I was observed by a veteran teacher once a month that also required a pre-conference and a reflecting conference and a 2 hour meeting each month with other first year teachers. I also was observed 4 times by my principal that also had a reflecting conference where I had to type out a 1-2 page reflection on the lesson. This continues next year when I also have to do a portfolio that shows I meet the 7 teaching standards and 42 criteria required by the state. Then I will actually get my teaching liscense.

Every 3 years veteran teachers get observed 4 times by the principal and go through the same reflecting conferences. During this time they also have to complete the same portfolio.

Every year teachers have to do a career development plan that shows how they are incorporating research based strategies in the classroom. They also have to put in 8 extra hours (real hours, not semester hours) outside the school day of professional development.

I had interns for years until my class was suffering because the whole world was sitting in observing, taping, and transcribing the poor dear's every move. I finally told the education head I would not take anymore of them as he was stressing them and us out too much.

He listened, but nothing changed.

Good luck, new teachers have it very hard.

:hi:

I just can't imagine that my school would get anything done if we were observed as much as you are. We have 25+ first and second year teachers out of close to 100 total. I also can't imagine teachers are tolerating having to do a portfolio every three years. I don't have any problems with the evaluations and reflecting conferences but I have a massive problem with that portfolio which sounds like busy work. Unless your state or district pays accordingly you will have problems retaining teachers. We get observed 3 times by either the principal or assistant principal and even then it is difficult for them to get the evaluations done in a timely manner.

(and it is not HRC...) We need to discuss these issues before it may be too late. We cannot afford to sacrifice our education system on the altar of triangulation.

I am going through all the articles at the DLC website, and getting them in one place.

The words are varied...but the meaning is the same. Let businesses profit from schools. We never thought it would happen to Medicare, but it did. AND our Democrats say they can't fix it. Bull Hockey.

They want to privatize our schools.

I am a firm believer in continuing education for teachers. Teachers should be given the opportunity, free of charge, to study research-based best teaching methods on an ongoing basis. If there is to be an incentive, let it be an incentive for implementing best teaching practices into the classroom, not teaching to the test. Reward teachers for continuing their education and implementing best practices. The teachers themselves could provide evidence that they were implementing such practices.

Don't call it merit pay...all teachers have merit, except for the few bad apples there are in every profession.

Call it....incentive pay! :think:

She said it is literally part of a "stripmall", and that it has security cameras EVERYWHERE, and that there's something like a 50-page questionare to be filled out.
I wonder who runs it, and where will all the data go that is being gathered.

I do not like this business at all.

And with a few words changed, it could have been about the UK.

This is an international problem.

I guess the drive for corporate profit is of course a worldwide issue.

:hi:

I get so tired of hearing politicians talk about how teachers don't get rated and supervised, and yes, even tested.

Politicizing education so a profit can be made.

NoFederales

K&R

:thumbsup:

I really don't know but that is part of what the DLC is proposing.

http://www.lib.utah.edu/epubs/hinckley/v2/lyman.htm



Oh, but Al From in 1999 said he was ready to "totally transform" the school system.

http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.asp?ID=2693



Well, that does not sound middle ground to me as the first article says. Total transformation sounds pretty total to me.

The plan offends teachers’ unions...
the public school system too often serves the interests of teachers and administrators at the expense of the students themselves

People really do think that we're out to get them, and that we signed up to be teachers because the pay is so good and the work is so easy (and anybody who thinks that is more than welcome to trade shoes and paychecks with me for a week). Did it never occur to people that maybe what's good for teachers IS what's good for kids? And that most of what teachers ask for is ultimately just to help them be better teachers?

When you have a question about medicine, you go to the AMA.
When you have a legal system question, you go to the Bar Association.
If you have a question about building a road, you go to the ASCE.
When you have a question about our political system, you go to a politician.

So why is it that when people have a question about education, they don't go to educators?

The DLC HATES UNIONS. The DLC hates workers. The DLC loves corporations and their capitalist masters.

The DLC hates public schools that can actually EDUCATE "lower class" children...

Educated citizens are too hard to control...

Simple...

When a charter school made a presentation in our area, their Power Point presentations were full of spelling errors.

But, I guess that sort of is like running a business - most MBAs write on a 4th grade level.

Is it easier or more difficult to get good teachers into the teaching jobs?

Teaching tends to attract people who are idealistic, who are drawn to public service. Idealism sickens and dies in the face of NCLB, in my experience.

a lot of all this is just good old fashion union bashing and union busting. i predict merit pay would go to suck ups, insiders, and fundie brethren. it will cause dissension, and undermine fairness. that is what they are after.
at least until they figure out how to outsource teaching.

Many of the truly good teachers, the ones who follow the curriculum in creative, yet responsible ways, without the fanfare, bragging, and PR seeking behaviors, will go ignored. The best teachers in my building are unassuming, "quiet", and are willing to share their ideas, materials, etc. with any one that asks. They do not compete for recognition of what they see as their job, and for the most part, one of their life's passions. It's kids first with them, and they don't ask for anything more than happy, learning, and growing children under their care.
In our district, they are already outsourcing. It started with the cafeteria program, and last year there was an unsuccessful attempt to outsource the custodial staff. It failed due to support from the teachers and community, who had been educated by the custodial and teaching staff.

and food service are outsourced here, too. the principal has to go beg the manager to put people on so that they can be open in the evening. DH and i were on the nclb pac. we had to really grovel to get into the building for anything. we were out over the weekend, installing permanent chess boards, and couldn't go into the building at all. 4 adults, and we had to go home to pee. janitors own the buildings, and they do not answer to the principle. its a pain.

...thank you for doing your job. I get the best of the graduates you produce in my line of business and before they write a check to get in the door, we evaluate their potential through the use of aptitude batteries, personality inventories, cognitive screenings, multi-task evaluations and an executive interview. Those who have been properly prepared by the people doing the thankless job of teaching effectively pass through our portal. Those who have been subjected to micro-management instruction through testing are nearly always rejected.

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

Instead, kids are taught to barf up an answer on demand. It might look good on a test score, but it doesn't do the kids any favors in the real world. You can teach a kid to barf up the answer 5 to the question what is 2 plus 3...but, does that mean the kid can correctly answer if you ask him what 6 plus 9 is? I can't tell you, for example, how many waiters/waitresses, cashiers, and tellers...for example...could not make proper change without their nice, computerized cash register. BECAUSE THEY REALLY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ADD AND SUBTRACT!!

No, they teach the kids just enough to be good little robots, automatons, good little slaves for corporate America someday. Cookie cutters, that what our schools become. No child left behind? don't make me laugh!! The ones being "left behind" now are the bright ones....because they are being HELD BACK....in order to let the slow learners and underachievers "catch up." Thank the good Lord I went to school before all this madness started! I was a troubled youth because I had a genius-level IQ, and nothing in the world made me crazier than being around "the dumb kids" (i.e. most everyone else. It took a long time for me to know that they were not dumb...they were average - I was gifted.) Nevertheless, it drove me NUTS to be held back because the rest of the class was too "stupid" to understand the material.

Our schools are a freaking joke. As I said...we teach no critical thinking skills anymore. Just as an example, I am going to present here one of my most favorite math prroblems...and, trust me...there is a legitimate answer to this question...and an established way to arrive at the answer - but you need critical thinking skills to figure it out.


Q: Suppose that a man, six feet tall, were to walk around the Earth at the equator. How much further would his head travel than his feet?

NOW, there's an answer, and an established means to get the answer, but I won't ruin it here...let's see who can come up with it first.

My point is...I could GIVE you the answer, and teach you to barf up the answer to that question on demand....absolutely I could. But...if I were to do that....could you then work out the same question if the subject walking around the Earth was a woman 5 feet, 3 inches tall? You could if you understand how to arrive at the answer. If you don't...then you couldn't....even though you could barf up the answer to the question about the 6 foot tall man.

I can say this as a former teacher.

There IS no accountability. Yes, they are scrutinized. Yes, there are reams of paper written about them. But bad teachers are never fired, (unless sex is involved). There are some very harmful teachers who ruin children...yet their jobs are protected.

I would love to see the many GOOD teachers get paid what they deserve. But as the parent of three children who are now thankfully finished with school, I am furious that dreadful teachers are allowed to teach for decades.

I have not known that many. The few I did know ended up gone before long.

I agree with the OP.

I'm also a parent who took 2 kids through public school, and the grandparent of a child in public school now.

I've seen dreadful teachers. A few. Dreadful teachers are not the source of public ed dysfunction. Public ed dysfunction might be, however, the source of dreadful teachers.

I've seen dreadful teachers removed, demoted, transferred, and "counseled out" of the profession. I've seen a few stay on. They weren't dreadful because they were disrespectful to students, but because they didn't know how to get the best out of their students. They weren't removed, but they were counseled, assigned mentors, and had people holding their hand through efforts to improve their practice. Those that did not improve either quit or their contracts were not renewed.

Each state operates a little differently, as does each district within the state. I'm wondering what state or district policies made it so difficult in your case. I'd like to point out that the means were probably there to hold teachers accountable. If they weren't used appropriately, that's a district administrative malfunction.

I'd also like to point out that the real problems in public education are not with teachers, but with dysfunctional, under-funded, over-crowded systems. All the teacher accountability in the world won't fix the real problems.

THEY DON'T WANT TO FIX THE REAL PROBLEMS!! They want to point to them as evidence of the failure of public education, bolstering their aguments for privatization of education...whereupon the poor in this country will forever stay poor, because they will no longer have the opportunity to be educated at all!

If, by "they," you are referring to corporate politicians, you are partially correct.

My post, though, is in response to an assertion that public ed is full of bad teachers that can't be removed. Which is bullshit.

Do you "get" that?

I get it. But there ARE bad teachers, and, a lot of times, whether or not they CAN be removed...the fact, too often, is that they AREN'T.

There are bad politicians, bad parents, bad mechanics, bad doctors, bad neighbors, bad cops, bad pastors....

The point is that the number of truly "bad" teachers is very low, and that the systemic problems facing public education have little and nothing to do with "bad" teachers.

--> Note that my HS is somewhat unique. Great pay, great benefits, and almost complete autonomy. Your mileage, I'm certain, will vary. I understand that in many school districts, poor administrators make more of a difference, or little autonomy, pay, or benefits. In the larger scope of the topic, I do not want business to take over. I agree that there are other systemic problems that also ned to be addressed, but policing your own should be included.<--

I do not know what state you are in, but in my county in PA there are so few removals that having one happen makes the front page because of it's uniqueness... about once every few years. It requires something glaring, but rarely poor skills. Kill somebody, rape a student, or fake your credentials (I kid you not). Teachers may be given "due process" which I agree with, but then the process ends and all of them are still here.

You cannot discount the fact that there ARE many bad teachers. They ARE harder to remove than any other profession I have been in or worked with. You cannot simply say that "... the systemic problems facing public education have little and nothing to do with "bad" teachers." I taught with some "bad" teachers, and the percentage is near the number of bad computer consultants and bad business owners, or bad ______ for that matter. For some of these teachers, "bad" is not even subjective since the entire community would like to see them removed. Is 5% enough to ruin a district? 10%? What if most every student, parent, administrator, AND teacher agrees that a teacher should be removed?

I know of a math department in a HS that is single-handedly lowering math education at the school. At least one has been placed in the "due process" procedure by the admin. Years later, they are still there. There is only one way to quickly correct this problem: get several new math teachers. A new HS administrator? No help, even when they are strong leaders. More pay, well beyond inflation? Tried that. Keep the benefits better than even administrative hospital workers? Nope, been there too.

Each state has some unique problems. In PA, in many schools, the teachers are given a lot of autonomy. I can vouch for the schools in my area, and for a tough teacher's union (a business itself). It appears that FL is different, and I would not want businesses (especially if they have anything to do with a Bush) to run the school. But if you want to keep an even keel on a discussion such as this, please do not make generalized points that are easily refuted by the opposition (I'm not even the opposition). Teachers are damn near impossible to fire. Sorry, it is true.

I think it is safe to say that there is a similar percentage of bad teachers and the other professions you list. The number of bad teachers is very high of course, but the percentage is on par with others. You cannot ignore them, as many administrators do... sometimes because the admins are bad at their jobs, other times because the union is too strong.

While I live in Pennsylvania, I cannot speak for education in this area, as I have no children attending public school here...and my own public school experience occurred in Illinois and Texas. But bad teachers are damn near to impossible to fire in Texas, I know that. Because I had some.

But be gay...or get involved in some sex scandal...then you will lose your teaching job. Otherwise, it matters not what swill they pump into your child's head, they are not going to get fired. At best, they will be transferred. so that someone else has to deal with the problem.

And where do those that get transferred get transferred to? Usually, the poorer-performing schools. meaning, of course, that the poor in our society keep getting progressively poorer quality education...and thus, limited opportunities in life.

But that's the way corporate America wants it.

I can discount that because I've spent 25 years in 2 states, different districts, and different school sites working with other teachers. I've spent some of that time working in district level leadership positions working with teachers from every school site in the districts I've worked in.

There are a few "bad" teachers, but the number of "bad" teachers relative to adequate and good teachers is not significant.

There are more "weak" teachers than "bad" teachers. A "weak" teacher doesn't need to be removed, though. A weak teacher needs to be supported in growing as a professional. That's best done through mentoring and collaboration. EVERY teacher, no matter how great, has some weaker areas, and some of the best teachers I've worked with are those that made a conscious effort to recognize and strengthen their areas of professional weakness. Good teachers don't spring straight from college into the classroom. They grow over time, with experience.

I can say that teachers are not "damn near impossible to fire," because I've worked in schools that fired teachers, and participated in the process a few times. The reality is that we don't fire teachers because someone doesn't like them, doesn't agree with them, and thinks they "ought" to be fired. Every teacher in the profession will have some students (and their families) that like them, and some that don't. In order to fire a teacher, there has to be evidence of serious malpractice.

That's as it should be. Teachers SHOULD be hard to remove. Teachers should not be removed because someone is disgruntled, or because someone disagrees with them. If "most every student, parent, administrator, AND teacher agrees that a teacher should be removed," then they will be. In the states and districts I've worked in. When there is consensus like that, evidence of malpractice is not hard to find.

If your local system is as corrupt as you say, it sounds like your community needs to start by replacing the school board.

Madfloridian, your situation sounds bad, but I think I know where the "make it more like a business" attitude comes from.

I am also a former teacher, although I left early because the system could not (or would not) get rid of bad teachers. The entire community knew who the harmful teachers were, and yet they kept their jobs. With only about 100 teachers in our small system, you could ask every student, parent, teacher, and administrator to list the ten bottom-feeders, and you can be certain at least five would appear on every list. Guess what those five are doing now? Teaching in my district, of course.

Evaluations? I do not doubt your story, but too many schools are like like mine. I was evaluated once in three years. ONCE, and I had to ask that I be evaluated (OK, so we went through a strike where the administration was afraid of the union, but that is another novel I must write). My department chair never stopped in, and he held three meetings in three years because he was forced to (and even then he only discussed how much he hated the administration). He managed to keep his job until he retired. Blame the administration? Yes. Blame the union. Equally, yes.

Since leaving the district, I have heard of a few poor teachers being placed in the "due process" cycle. What a load of crap that is. The teachers in question are no better than when the admin began the process, and of course they are still there, making the same money as their hard-working peers.

I know we need a union, but not this one. NOT THIS ONE. And please don't tell me that that it has to protect absolutely everyone, and some garbage about due process. I can count every teacher fired or let go in the entire county in the last decade on one hand -- one drunk killed someone, one faked his credentials (but was a good teacher, apparently) and a couple of sex offenses. But NONE were fired for being incompetent.

My district does well in spite of many teachers, but there are so many great teachers at my school. They deserve merit pay, but please take it from the teachers who cannot or will not teach.

Don't worry. It won't be long before the teachers will lost any job security they have....well, let's face it that's the reason for so much of this.

So relax, sit back, take a deep breath...and soon the schools WILL be run like businesses.

And teachers who cared won't bother anymore.

And the ones who are not so bright, but very good at parroting script lessons will thrive in a system meant to marginalize the very bright. A system that plays to the mediocre middle.

Relax be happy. It will be here soon when even the Democrats are for the privatization.

The big big money is switching parties now, so they should be able to complete the job soon.

The "very bright" now...they label them as having ADD...and dope 'em up to make little zombies out of them, so that they will sit there, bored, learn nothing, but not disrupt the class. Too much trouble to address the actual problem that the kid is bored because he/she already KNOWS what the teacher is teaching to the rest of the class. Costs too much money to take him and a few others out...put them in a different environment, and let them thrive! Also, that is too threatening to the established social caste pecking order. How DARE the children of the masses ever compete with the children of THE ELECT for the few spots on the top of the pile!! Those spots are reserved for THEIR children....not yours.

...was referring to bright 'teachers'...not students. (?)

:rofl:

Verrryyy interesting.

:hi:

Fight the good fight, but with attitude like that you just lost a few helpers. If you think I joined in 2004 to wait for you to post a rant, then I'm a bit concerned about your ability for public discourse. One of the biggest problems facing good teachers -- who want to be in this system but find it impossible -- is other teachers who think everyone should think just like them. Unions are great when they fight for great common goals, but detrimental when they ostracize those with other experiences or new ideas.

You don't appreciate the fact that I had a completely different experience, and you are entitled to live in your twisted world of "we" vs "they". But you should want to understand why there are places that want to make the schools into a business. I know why. But understand this: I do not agree. Schools should not be run like a business anymore than medicine should. Schools need to remain in the hands of teachers, not bottom lines. Schools should also not be in the hands of the other business called the teachers' union, quite simply another business.

Congratulations on your snideness and silly emoticon. Very mature. Now I am beginning to doubt your story, because hard-liners tend to exaggerate. Maybe no school evaluates their teachers as much as you declare, just as no school evaluates their teachers once in three years. Right?

Hire good teachers and let them teach. If they rock, take good care of them, but if you discover they sit back and enjoy the ride or simply suck, fire them.

...they hire good teachers...but then DON'T let them teach? That's been my experience.

I had almost full autonomy. I had the support of both the administration and the school board. At the end of my first year, I was asked if I needed any more computers (I taught comp sci as well). I typed three scenarios, then the superintendent asked which one I preferred. I chose the first option, and when I returned in September there were boxes in my room with my request.

The rest of the math department also had near full autonomy. They never held meetings, unless forced to do so, which amounted to three meetings in three years... then they talked about how much they hated the administration, but nothing about math or teaching math.

We went through a strike period, where the settlement included an average of several thousand more in salary per year, retroactive, as well as the best medical benefits in town. The math department acted as though they were screwed, and still maintained a "work to rule" BS. I had cousins in the school who would tell me about their math experiences.

Our school does well in spite of many teachers. The district has many resources, an educated board, an educated and active community. Some good teachers leave to work in a less grumpy school, while others leave teaching altogether.

Our district tries so hard to keep the good teachers, and tends to recognize talent. They have tried to get rid of one math teacher in particular, and have been met with fierce opposition from the union.

Sigh. I guess it depends upon who "they" are who are not allowing the good teachers to teach. "They" are not the administration in my district.

...my experience was similar to yours. Now that I'm not, things are different. "They" are the administration in my district...and it's sad.

They wanted the magic "answer" that would yield the magic grade. They couldn't deal with ambiguity or subjectivity, and many were interested not in learning, but in psyching out what I "wanted," what buttons they could push to cause me to give them a good grade.

Actual learning seemed to have little to do with it. They wanted that grade on a transcript to show to potential employers.

In fact, they showed little interest in Japan, Japanese culture, studying in Japan on our very affordable exchange program (for which they could use their financial aid), or even the 15 or so Japanese students who studied at our school every year. Every year, I'd have to grade them on participation in Japanese cultural activities that were held on campus. Most of them didn't go otherwise. Why make an effort for anything that a potential employer would never know about?

I bet it's even worse now as relentless standardized testing drains the last bit of intellectual life out of the K-12 schools.

And it's been long enough now, so I'll answer the question I posed earlier.

The answer is 37 feet, 8 inches.

The way you arrive at the answer is quite simple...assuming you have the critical thinking skills to determine what is actually being asked.

If a man walks around the Earth...or any sphere, for that matter - (the distance of that sphere is irrelevant) then his head is making one circle...his feet, a different circle. Thus, the diameter of the circle made by his feet is 12 feet (144 inches) less than the diameter of the circle being made by his head (diameter equals radius * 2) therefore, you multiply your inches (144) by pi (3.14159) to get 452.388 inches, which, rounded, would be 452 inches. divide by 12, and you get 37 2/3 feet (you get .6666666666666 left over). So, if a foot is 12 inches...2/3 of a foot is 8 inches. And so your answer is 37 feet, 8 inches.

Incidentally, the answer would be the same if the same man walked around Jupiter, at it's equator. The size of the sphere does not matter.

Now, for the woman 5 foot 3 inches, we can solve this, because we know HOW to arrive at the answer. Her circle's diameter is 126 inches larger at her head than her feet. (5 feet 3 inches is 63 inches multiplied by 2 for 126).

Now, we multiply by pi, and the result is 395.84 inches, which rounds to 396 inches. This works out evenly to 33 feet. Therefore, for the 5 foot 3 inch woman, the answer is 33 feet. and would be the same if SHE walked around Jupiter, because, again, the size of the sphere does not matter.

BUT, because we do not teach critical thinking, I doubt very many who have graduated from our public schools in the past 20 years could have correctly figured out the answer for either the 6 foot tall man, or the 5 foot, 3 inch woman. Now that you know HOW to arrive at the answer, however, you could figure it out for anyone. As an excerise, figure it out on yourself.

In my case, it would be 37 feet, 2 inches. Now, use logic to tell me how tall I am? If you know critical thinking, you could do this. In case you're wondering, I happen to stand 5 feet, 11 inches.

So...what about y'all....how much further would YOUR head travel than your feet? I love this question because it is such a great way to show how critical thinking skills are used...in a way anyone can understand.

***

...who continue to push their school voucher program to break down school integration and go back to the neoconservative dreams of segregation and race separation. What bastards these people continue to be!

to fifth grade thinks they're a teacher. now you know why I don't teach anymore.

As a person who is not a teacher, but had the benefit of a pretty progressive education (as I look back on it), you are correct in saying that too much time is being taken up by studying for tests. Our kids are not stupid by any means. I have coached, and umpired youth baseball in the past and have seen some caring, sensitive kids, as well as some who were not so caring and sensitive. No amount of testing is going to change that. And I also firmly believe that there are no "stupid" kids, just some who are not as quick as others. We all have our areas of specialty, but with the cut in arts and music programs you mentioned, we are not seeing it so much.
And just to clarify, I do not equate coaching youth sports as being on a par with teaching. A good teacher is worth their weight in gold. I still remember some teachers I had as a youth who helped to guide me through this journey we call life. Let the educators do their jobs.
On edit- Boy I guess we all have our areas of specialty. Mine is spelling and I need to learn to proofread my typing so as to spell correctly. But as I said, Teachers teach. They usually know what is best as far as an educational curriculum is concerned.

If you replace the just the principal, you still have no guarantee that the school (or a department, or an individual) will be better.

I have a better idea, and one that I'm willing to place half of my salary on (I need something to live on, and I could live on half the local going rate). Allow me to hand-pick every math teacher in my district's MS and HS. Do not force me to pick math-ed majors, although some will be. I need to convince some of my interesting, motivated math & computer geek friends to follow me. Give me about six years to show great progress, and I'll take just about any measuring metric. But when the students are performing better, I would like my escrowed salary back, thank you very much.

BTW, I would not keep a single math teacher in my MS or HS. I taught with these guys, so I know more than I need to know.

I seriously doubt one principal would even come close to changing the outcomes delivered by the math department at my district. Our HS has seen a several principals in the past couple of decades, and yet nothing seems to change.

are so dis-functional, so top-down hierchial, so paternalistic and authoritarian and so incompetent it would make you plotz...

In most big companies they hire good people and treat them like shit... Great model :sarcasm:

Big business does NOT WANT OUR CHILDREN EDUCATED. They only want THEIR children educated, they want yours and mine "trained".

Anyone who doesn't think the class system is alive and well in this country and that vouchers, charter schools, "merit pay" and all the rest of that bullshit isn't the upper class's program to eviscerate the truly free, public school idea, isn't paying attention...

You hit the nail on the head. By the way, TRAINING is what you do to an animal...which is no doubt how the ELITE see the rest of us...as animals, not human, not deserving of good treatment, fair wages and working hours, health care...you know, things like that.

No, they don't want our children educated...just trained enough that they can do the job that big business wants them to do, and no more. Any more would be a threat to their place in the social caste.

Which is why they want school vouchers, and private schools. So that they can send THEIR children to the elite schools, and leave the rest of us behind.

I hate to say, but some teachers are even, whether they know it or not, helping this process along. The kid who is hyperactive, or disctracts the class, is labelled a troublemaker...and they insist he get put on Ritalin, or the equivalent. Yeah, dope 'em up...make little zombies out of them, and teach them to barf up an answer on demand. Usually, the troublemakers and hyper kids are that way because they are BORED. They're bored, because they already know what the teacher is teaching the rest of the class.

I know...I was a child prodigy (fat lot of good it's done me in this life - because it is not WHAT you know...but WHO you know that matters) and I was fucking bored to TEARS!! I knew my multiplication tables to 12 and was reading a freaking newspaper - AND UNDERSTANDING IT before I even entered kindergarten...and next thing you know, they're trying to teach ME...and everyone else...ABC and 1-2-3. Needless to say I went just about out of my mind with utter boredom!!

Then again, this is not all teachers' fault...the crap rolls downhill, and the demands the higher-ups place on performace causes teachers to have to do this....instead of letting the really smart kids go at their own pace, in a special environment.

Thank God I went to school where they FINALLY...after four years...figured it out, and did just that with me....let me learn at my own pace. the fucking schools are cookie cutters, they are basically slave factories, determinedly turning out good little zombie-slaves for corporate America....zombie-slaves that know just enough to get their job done, and not enough to know how to stand up for themselves, and demand better working conditions, pay, benefits...alll the things workking americans took for granted when unions actually had power.

Time to get some strong unions going again. But will it ever happen? Revisionist history will be taught, eventually to our zombie-slaves, until they never know that the conditions were ever any different.

I entered Kindergarten.

My main memory of school was being totally bored out of my skull until I got to College...

And did you, at your young age...believe everyone else was STUPID? Because I did. It never occurred to me till years later that I was GIFTED...and they were just average. no, I thought they were STUPID. And it drove me batshit.

just REAL sllllllloooooooowwwwww.

Reading between the lines



Bush's friends have profited greatly. I was reading a blog about the Open Court series, the blog was called Open Cult...a reference to the scripted nature of the reading series used in so many schools. He who makes the tests in a test taking society...sets the agenda. It is published by McGraw Hill, old Bush friends from Texas, I believe.

McGraw Hill is referred to in these paragraphs about the testing.

From above:

"Bush testing regime emphasizes minimal competence along a narrow range of skills, with an eye toward satisfying the low end of the labor market. All this sits well with a business community whose first preoccupation is "global competitiveness":" (/snip)

global competitiveness (read: how can we drive down the wage of American workers?)

whose owners are on trial for fraud. Only one paper is covering it. It happened in 2004, and they are just now being retried.

But teachers had better produce. Just those faith based schools getting public money that get a wink wink.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1344244

Thank you, from a teacher.:)


On edit: Damn, I wish we could recommend posts that are more than 24 hours old.

I tried to recommend, but read it to late to do so.

As a prior public-school teacher, I can attest to what you say and agree with you completely.

The attempt by Republicans to migrate public schools to schools-for-profit is obscene. And guess who is in the middle - Neil Bush.

The f*****s will stop at nothing to add to their empire.

There are two basic problems with public education.

1) Parents are not nearly involved in their kids' education as they should be.

2) We spending about a third to a half less (adjusted for inflation) than we were a generation ago.

Everything else is a smokescreen. I know enough teachers to know they work their hearts out for their students, and it's wrong to try to make them the "fall guy" for society's unwillingness to do what has to be done.

yet...if their parents didn't have to literally work themselves to the point of near total collapse, just to make ends meet...perhaps they COULD be more interested in their chiold's education.

NEWSFLASH: corporate america doesn't want YOUR kids educated. This is exactly the way they want it. Our schools are little more than slave factories now, producing good little zombie-slaves for corporate America. The kind that know just enough to punch in, pitch in, get the job done, punch out, go home, throw up, go to bed, and get back on the treadmill again the next day...lather rinse and repeat until they have sucked all the life out of the zombie-slave...which, by then, there will be a new one to take the place of the old...and they will just take the old one out to the curb in a Glad bag.

Jolly old U.S.A.
Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.

And I don't care what Obama and Bloomberg think about merit pay.

If they push it, if they push charter schools, vouchers....they will pay dearly from the teacher's community.

Teachers have seen the light about Bush's goodness, so-called.