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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:22 PM
Original message
Do you find this statement by Obama problematic? If so, why?
"Our faith informs our values, and I think we'd all agree that our values inform our politics more than they have over the last six years," the Illinois senator said at an interfaith forum in downtown Des Moines.

Obama said that too often religious leaders use faith to "exploit what divides us" by saying that the only issues that matter are abortion, gay marriage, school prayer, and intelligent design.

"Everyone in this room knows that's not true," Obama said.

He said there are other challenges that can unite people of faith, one of them being the issue of climate change.

"The bible tells us that when God created the earth, he entrusted us with the responsibility to take care of that earth," he said. "It is a responsibility to ensure that this planet remains clean and safe and livable for our children, and for all of God's children."

"Science has made it undeniably clear that our generation is not living up to this responsibility."


(From the CNN Political Ticker)

I'm agnostic, but I think this is pure political brilliance- his bringing progessive ideas to the fundies, and I love it.

What do you think?
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think this is very well done.Good for Obama!
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. This would work in the GE if he gets past "Mrs Inevitability."
It might splinter off enough Fundies to weaken their base.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. No more or less than many I have read. I wished they did not feel that necessary, but
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 03:28 PM by Mass
as much as a statement like that goes, this one is OK.

Will Obama go and meet with other non Christian faiths and atheists people. This is the only question I would have.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm sure he will. His multiethnic, multicultural background
makes it very likely.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Jesus was a liberal.
His persona has been hijacked and his message has been suppressed by fundamentalists who have no use for concepts of charity, compassion or responsibility to their fellow humans.
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slick8790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. No problems here.
I have no problems with people believing whatever they want to, as long as they're not hurting others by it. And it is brilliant strategy. Imagine the quandary some evangelicals might be in after hearing something like this if the repubs nominate rudy!
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Can you imagine? "Dobson endorses Obama!"
Ha! Rush would die of an overdose of Oxycontin!
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. That would become a problem for me, because Obama would have had to accept things that would be
problematic for me.

This said, this would never happen.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. What does he tell the folks that don't believe that God created the earth?
Who holds them responsible to keep it clean?

I don't have a problem with his statement because I'm a Catholic christian.

I just hope he has a 'clean earth' message for non-christians.

We're all stewards, only some of us answer to God.
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Johnny Noshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I've said this before in another thread some time back...
JUST ONCE in my lifetime I would love to see an openly atheist progressive candidate for President actually be the front runner and have a real shot at the White House. Obama is a good man and would make a good President and I see what he's trying to do but I for one am tired of having to here people running for office wearing religion on their sleeve.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's running for president and believes in creationism
THAT'S kinda problematic to me.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Where do you see that?
He says" "The bible tells us that when God created the earth, ..."

A well-stated point directed at those who do believe in the bible's version of creation.

Do you disagree that the bible says what Obama said that it says?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. He's in pandering mode
He's trying to whore the vote of the evangelicals. He's trying to prove he is one of them. He says "us" and not "you." He seems to be making it pretty clear to those people that he believes it, too. If you don't think that this is the message that is intended and the one that is received, I have a bridge to sell you.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Creationist or Panderer? Make up your mind
For a mindreader, you sure are confused on why Obama said that
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. pick one
or explain how they are mutually exclusive
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. If he is a creationist, then he wasn't pandering to the talibornagain
If he is a creationist, then he truly believes in the Kingdom of God stuff. In that case, it's not pandering
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. OK, you can pick which one he is
Either way it sucks.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. OK
I pick "Neither"
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Silly cuke
that wasn't an option.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Keeping an open mind is always an option
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. Well played.
And welcome to DU.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. No he isn't
If you don't know anything about religion, you probably shouldn't talk about it. He's exposing and opposing the idiot fundamentalists, not pandering to them.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yeah
because I'm an atheist, I don't know anything about religion. That's the ticket.

This has nothing to do with him trying to get the evangelical vote and prove he is a good Christian and not a dirty Muslim ("LOOK AT ME, I JOINED THE UCC")
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. I told you what I think:
religion, god, created earth, god's children, instrument of god, kingdom right here on earth ... a common thread in his campaign that I don't like.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. the bible says its ok to stone people to death as well, shall we start doing that again? nt
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Some people believe in what the bible says.
Should Obama ignore them, or speak to them in a way that will win them over?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "Win them over" at what cost?
What are they going to want in return for their vote? Are they going to be rightfully want some concessions to further blur the church state line? Has his recent rash of speeches indicted he is willing to blur that line (i.e. "part of the Kingdom on earth")? Yes to all.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Ignore them and they'll go away?
Is that your solution?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. Not at all
As one astute DUer pointed out, Obama has to show that he's not a Muslim. For another, I don't mind hearing the what's and why's that formed the worldview of a person who may someday be POTUS.

And most importantly, because I believe in the seperation of church and state, I am loathe to place a religious test (or a irreligious test) on a political office
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, I think he's right on the money
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 06:11 PM by Lirwin2
He often is. Don't misinterpret hatred of some of his supporters as hatred of his ideas though.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. You can't convert them if you don't talk to them
I don't understand people who want these fundies to come into the current century, but get mad when anybody talks to them or about them. You can't challenge bad doctrine if you don't call it what it is.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. God is fact. You don't agree? You don't belong.
What he says and what people says he says are often radically different.

Engaging and involving those with religion is fine and even necessary; reinforcing their assumption that they are, without question, correct in their cosmic view is BAD. It makes others inferior. It appeals to blind loyalty. It sanctifies religion as not just something that's okay in the political arena but necessary.

No. He is out of line. He is way out of line.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. it's great he is trying to defuse the influence of fundementalists and make things right again
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. 40% was the amount of voters for Bush and i think the dems need to get some on our side
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Anything for a vote, eh?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. I would recommend
wearing a condom before getting into bed with them.

And you'll probably want a really hot shower afterward to wash off the shame.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. yes i most certainly do and if I have to explain why on a
liberal/progressive discussion board than there is no fucking hope. we are hypocrites if we complain when the wingnuts do this but not when our side does. after i post this response I am done with these obama and his preaching threads and refuse to go into any more of them.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. *sigh* It seems like many of my fellow Atheists have anti-Obama attack dogs.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. That's not fair Odin,
I'm in no way anti-Obama, but I'll speak up when I think he's wrong. He's developing a pattern of injecting his own personal religious beliefs into his platform, and I don't like it. I object to a presidential candidate referring to himself as an instrument of god, and I suspect that most of the writers of the constitution would object too.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Obama isn't calling himself an instrument of God.
He's attacking the religious right.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sorry to question him
I forgot that I received the memo that says he is now declared perfect and should not be doubted. I will now toe the line.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Where did I say he was perfect?
Criticizing posters that accuse Obama of acting like he's an "instrument of god" sore something similar just because he tells people the Religious Right doesn't have a monopoly on values is declaring him perfect?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Using the terminology
"attack dog" seems to indicate that there is some lack of justification.
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
40. No problem at all! (K&R)
Makes perfect sense to those who are open-minded and want to hear the truth!:think: :kick:
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. The truth?
Please tell me that you aren't seriously arguing that Obama and those he was speaking to have the key to the truth about god. Please tell me I misunderstood, cause that only adds to the crazy.
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I am serious he was calling out right wing leaders...
You have totally misunderstood, the key to the truth about God is up to each individual and I will not go there.

Personally, I respect the rights of the non-believers and would never criticize them and wish they would do the same. Live and let live is my motto!

But that IF you are religious, then the following should apply because it's wrong to nitpick like the religious right. Please read what he said:


Obama said that too often religious leaders use faith to "exploit what divides us" by saying that the only issues that matter are abortion, gay marriage, school prayer, and intelligent design.

"Everyone in this room knows that's not true," Obama said.

He said there are other challenges that can unite people of faith, one of them being the issue of climate change.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I think he stepped over the line
in trying to get these people's vote. I think his joining of the UCC as a way to show he isn't a dirty muslim is not a good thing.

Look, I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nod. I'll put up a sign in my yard, go door to door to get him elected. But as someone concerned with the creeping theocracy in this country, what he is saying bristles the hairs on the back of my neck. It sounds like more of the same regarding Christianity in government. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think it is out of line to say it sounds like more crap.
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. And you know this how?
in trying to get these people's vote. I think his joining of the UCC as a way to show he isn't a dirty muslim is not a good thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I am not mistaken he was converted long before running for president!
You not only stepped over the line, you are condescending and mean spirited.

You have no right what so ever to question his faith or trash his intentions to legitimately let the faith community believe we Democrats get where they are coming from.

All of the candidates have declared their faith, if religion is a problem then I am afraid you are out of luck.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. "I have no right to question his faith"
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 11:42 PM by Goblinmonger
Are you serious? I see people on DU call Bush and others not real christians all the time. And now I'm "mean spirited" because I do the same thing with Obama? Are you and Obama that damn fragile?

on edit: religion is not the problem. A presidential candidate making religious rumblings that seem to indicate his intentions while president is a problem. I can see that line pretty clearly. Why can't you?
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. i'd have to agree that your comment was over the line
stating somebody only joined to prove they are not a muslim is a rather hash claim

tho i'll be sensible on it, since its your claim, would you mind backing it up with proof, and if you have none then maybe retract the said claim
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. His joining of the UCC
came right after the muslim school claims. His religious rhetoric also ratched up after that. If you want to think that is just a coincidence, then go ahead. Seems pretty obvious to me what motivated all of it.

And just so I am clear, questioning the religion of a politician is now off limits? Because that will cut out a lot of the "he's not a real christian" bullshit I see here on DU about the Republicans that DU Christians don't like and don't want in their circle of the venn diagram.
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. You are aware he has been a member of
the UCC since 1988 yes?

Thats why i consider your claim to be out of line, its not something he did on a whim recently(unless he somehow was running for president back then and had the Muslim school claim used against him at that time aswell)

And no, questioning somebodies religion i don't really have a problem with, stating something as a fact when its not tho i don't consider questioning, your claim was a statement, not a question
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. Please correct me if I am wrong
I remember reading that he had joined a new UCC church (parish?) shortly after the muslim problems. I can't remember where I read it, but I will try a quick look (I admit right now I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it). Why make that move then if not to try and convince everyone of your deep christianity?
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. I was speaking for myself only.....
What other people do is not my problem. Obama is is not fragile or he couldn't run for president. No I am not fragile.

I will backtrack on your right to question his faith, if you will backtrack about he is a Christian only for votes.

What part of rumblings, do you not get...he was explaining the difference between the religious right wing and their extremism.

Finely, I apologize for the mean spirited remark, but condescending stands. :evilgrin:
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. I am not saying that his Christianity is new
I am aware of what he reports as his religious history and I have no problem with that. It is the outwardness that comes after the "muslim" attacks that bothers me. It seems like he is on a mission to prove to someone how christian he is. That worries me. From what I have read of him (including his book) I see him as being a Christian that I don't have a problem with. This latest causes me to be a little bothered. Hopefully that distinction of my thoughts is clear.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
56. No, it makes perfect sense
He is saying that it is natural for Christians to be environmentalists, it is in fact, part of their own religion, to care for the earth.

Of course, this won't play to the fundies, who are hoping for an Apocalypse, but they would never vote for a democrat anyway.

I think he is appealing to the SANE Christians out there.
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