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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:25 AM
Original message
Donnie McClurkin and the Unmasking of Black Hypocrisy
Barack Obama's inclusion of Donnie McClurkin has certainly brought his campaign some attention although I am not sure if it is the kind that was desired. It's going to be interesting to see how this issue plays out. I have long felt that the was Black America comes to terms with the issue of Gay rights will speak volumes about the direction our people will head in at this turbulent time in our nations' history.

As a community, we have had significant problems in addressing the issues of Gay rights. From outright homophobia and hatred, to a head in the sand attitude of denial, the Black community has generally treated the issue of homosexuality and Gay rights as something that didn't concern us. But there has been one consistent undercurrent that run beneath this morass of phobia and indifference: That the struggle for Gay rights is very, very different from our struggle for civil rights. In fact, when any issue regarding homosexuality is often raised in the Black community, the issue itself often gets buried in the inevitable indignation that Gay rights activists can actually see a commonality between their cause and the causes we sacrificed so much for.

And I think there is a good reason for our community to muddy the waters with this righteous outrage: Because if we looked at the issue straight on, we have some very uncomfortable truths to deal with. The core, the very heart and soul, of the civil rights movement was the notion that we were American citizens that were being treated as second class persons: As something less than. And we got tired of it and set out to change it. And if you look at the movement from that perspective of purity, then the struggle for Gay rights is no different from the struggle that ANY minority group has faced in this country.

As our community has struggled with this issue, I have been observant of how many in our community, especially the clergy and the churches have framed the debate on this subject. Most have taken to the same playbook used by The Christian "White" and framed this issue as one of morality. "It is against Gods Will" Or "It's not natural". I'm sure they sound familiar. But all we have to do is take off our blinders and look back in time and we would see that theses exact same rationales were used to oppress us. The Bible was used to justify Slavery. And there was many good Christians who went to bask in the glory of the Lord on a sunny Sunday morning after lynching some poor Black soul the night before.

"But it's different!" people like McClurkin will say. Why is it that our perception and reading of Christian morality can expand when it comes to Blacks but stops for Gays. I think we play a dangerous game when we adopt the rhetoric of those such as AFA, or Focus on the Family to justify our opposition to Gay rights. Those organizations probably have issues with civil rights and things like inter-racial marriage as well. But Gays make such a convenient and ,unfortunately, weak target for their bigotry. But make no mistake about it: If the climate was right they'd be coming after us too.

I'm disappointed but not surprised by the cover provided by Clinton and Obama to proponents of this level of bigotry. And it brings me to another disappointing revelation. The more our community ignores, or even worse, adopts the reasoning of the very people who would also deny us our rights, the more we avoid addressing critical issues in our communities. HIV is spreading like a wildfire in our community with Black women representing the demographic which is bearing the brunt of this onslaught. Single parent households are also the norm. So when members of our community try to support entrenched discrimination on the basis of some sort moral superiority that rests on the sanctity of marriage, I just have to scratch my head and say :wtf: And of course, we unwittingly set the table for those who would seek to discriminate against us because, if we can ratiionalize discrimination against Gays, why can't someone rationalize and codify discrimination against us. Again.

So I'm sure this issue will blow over. McClurkin will or will not perform. Our community will fail to see why the Gay community is so upset while at the same time bemoaning the fact that it seems that everybody and their mother is hanging a noose these days. And unfortunately, many of us will stick our heads back in the sand and never connect the dots to see that endorsing entrenched bigotry can result in an environment in this country where a Black US attorney can go to Jena Louisiana and say he didn't see a problem with someone hanging nooses in a "White" tree.

Nope. We'll keep whistling past the graveyard while the band plays on.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did you write this? n/t
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
77. Excellent.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
:applause:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Obama issued a paltry condemnation against McClurkin
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:34 AM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
And McClurkin is still playing. Screw the gays. What are we going to do, vote Republican?


On edit; excellent writing. :thumbsup:
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yeah
It does seem futile sometimes. But at the very least we can call them on the bullshit. And this is a prime example where someone from the Black community has to do it.

Thanks
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
113. Calling out AA Fundie Homophobia is
Edited on Thu Oct-25-07 03:12 PM by Karenina
a HUGE DEAL. It's a pus-filled boil on their "Body of Christ." This is better than "The Bold and the Beautiful!" Let's see who is either or both! :evilgrin:
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
94. Obama will not get the nomination,.
Therefore, no need to vote republican.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #94
116. I wouldn't do that
:puke:

We've certainly had enough of that crap.
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DU9598 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you
This is wonderful and perfect in so many ways. You are obviously very talented and enlightened. Bless you.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. Congratulations
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:40 AM by lamprey
It's a brave thing to say when criticism of the African American community is all too often used as a club by racists of all stripes. It's not easy, I'm sure, but the right thing to do. Thank You
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. Proud to recommend this post
Very articulate.

I am neither homosexual, nor am I black. But, I am married to a Korean (we live in Korea) and you'd be amazed at the amount of bigotry we see. Here and when we visit the US.
We've been told by quite a few Christians that God does not approve of race-mixing...Yet they can't explain why if the first people were Adam and Eve that everyone comes from the some mother and father.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks
I'm Black and while I'm not homosexual, our family had people who were. Thats the disconnect I can't get. Given the prevalence of large Black families in this country, almost all of us have gay relatives. That combined with what we have had to go through and are still going through leaves me at a loss as to why it appears our community is so hostile to this subject.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. The "Letter From Huey"
In the months following the Stonewall riots of June 1969, the fledgling gay liberation movement sought to form alliances with other progressive movements. But New Left groups were usually no less homophobic than the rest of the country.

A breakthrough came, however, in the summer of 1970, when Black Panther Party leader Huey P. Newton announced support for gay and lesbian equality. His statement was the first pro-gay pronouncement to come from the black civil rights movement.

"A Letter from Huey to the Revolutionary Brothers and Sisters About the Women's Liberation and Gay Liberation Movements," published August 21, 1970, in the party's newspaper, was as much a reprimand to fellow Panthers for their homophobia and sexism as it was a call for coalition.

"As we all know," Newton wrote, "sometimes our first instinct is to want to hit a homosexual in the mouth and want a woman to be quiet. We want to hit a homosexual in the mouth because we're afraid we might be homosexual; and we want to hit the woman or shut her up because we're afraid that she might castrate us." The remedy, he said, is to "gain security in ourselves and therefore have respect and feelings for all oppressed people."

Admitting that the party had failed to consider gay issues, Newton observed: "Homosexuals are not given freedom and liberty by anyone in the society. Maybe they might be the most oppressed people in the society."

Newton also addressed what had become a particularly sore point for gay activists: "The terms 'faggot' and 'punk' should be deleted from our vocabulary, and especially we should not attach names normally designed for homosexuals to men who are enemies of the people."

http://www.planetout.com/news/history/archive/huey.html

Here we are almost 40 years later. Look how far we've advanced!!

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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Interesting
I think the difference between then and now is that the churches have taken the lead in framing this issue for our community. There aren't really any organizations analogous to the panthers.

And you really want to open a can of worms? Try to have a discussion about the relevance of the Black church today and whether given the rise of these mega-churches that seem to exist only as cash collectors that they even have the moral right to address this issue.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. The churches need to be shown the light
They need a reminder about imposing their confused dogma and beliefs on not only others outside their faith but also on gay members of their own congregations. And they need a little history lesson from the not so distant past.

I would invite them to devote sermons and Sunday School classes discussing the gay people in their own families and churches, and ask them to consider the magnificent letter written this year by Mildred Loving on the 40th anniversary of Loving vs. Virginia.

Loving for All

Prepared for Delivery on June 12, 2007, The 40th Anniversary of the Loving vs. Virginia Announcement
By Mildred Loving

When my late husband, Richard, and I got married in Washington, DC in 1958, it wasn't to make a political statement or start a fight. We were in love, and we wanted to be married.

We didn't get married in Washington because we wanted to marry there. We did it there because the government wouldn't allow us to marry back home in Virginia where we grew up, where we met, where we fell in love, and where we wanted to be together and build our family. You see, I am a woman of color and Richard was white, and at that time people believed it was okay to keep us from marrying because of their ideas of who should marry whom.

When Richard and I came back to our home in Virginia, happily married, we had no intention of battling over the law. We made a commitment to each other in our love and lives, and now had the legal commitment, called marriage, to match. Isn't that what marriage is?

Arrested in the Middle of the Night

Not long after our wedding, we were awakened in the middle of the night in our own bedroom by deputy sheriffs and actually arrested for the "crime" of marrying the wrong kind of person. Our marriage certificate was hanging on the wall above the bed.

The state prosecuted Richard and me, and after we were found guilty, the judge declared: ""Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." He sentenced us to a year in prison, but offered to suspend the sentence if we left our home in Virginia for 25 years exile.

We left, and got a lawyer. Richard and I had to fight, but still were not fighting for a cause. We were fighting for our love.

Though it turned out we had to fight, happily Richard and I didn't have to fight alone. Thanks to groups like the ACLU and the NAACP Legal Defense & Education Fund, and so many good people around the country willing to speak up, we took our case for the freedom to marry all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. And on June 12, 1967, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that, "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men," a "basic civil right."

God's Plan?

My generation was bitterly divided over something that should have been so clear and right. The majority believed that what the judge said, that it was God's plan to keep people apart, and that government should discriminate against people in love. But I have lived long enough now to see big changes. The older generation's fears and prejudices have given way, and today's young people realize that if someone loves someone they have a right to marry.

Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people civil rights.

Freedom to Marry for All

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.





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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Thanks
It's one thing to speak in generalities about things and another to see it laid out in stark details by a real person.

Thanks for this
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
55. the Black Panthers were years ahead of just about everyone
unfortunately the public demonization of the Panthers and the literal war on them by the united states government (in conjunction with local authorities) succeeded in changing perception (though not fact) to make the Panthers into something they were most definitely not.

RIP Huey
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you
extraordinary post. Should be read by everybody.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. I Wish I Had The Intellectual Discipline To Write That Well
Great work...

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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Intellectual Discipline
Now theres 2 words I don't hear too often. Especially when it concerns me. :rofl:


Thanks for the compliment
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. It's Hard To Sustain An Argument
I have had a lot of education but I marvel at folks to whom words come easy...
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. k&r
you hit it perfectLy. :patriot:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
16. People like you give me hope for the world.
Great post BronxBoy! :applause:
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. Well said, a kick and a rec for you.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
18. K&R.
big time
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
21. Blackness and Homosexuality are not mutually exclusive.
How many black gays are out there?
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. Lots
which makes the phobia and indifference to GAy issues all the more baffling.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. It's not really baffling to me
One of the main reasons is because many sincerely think it's a sin. Many in the church have found scriptures that they feel justifies their position.

This what it boils down to. Many who practice Islam believe the same thing.

Change won't come until the positions of the church/mosque changes. This is not an issue of partisan politics because this was the opinion long before the religious right became dominant.
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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #28
96. Wasn't it Shakespeare?
That said 'the Devil can cite scripture to support his cause'.

I no longer attend ANY church because of the bigotry and closed-mindedness of the leaders.
I do remember though that Christ stated that the Old laws(testament) were no longer valid.
That his orders were to love your enemy as your brother, turn the other cheek, etc.

Where is the church of Christ today? Not here in Amerika obviously.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Not sure if he said that
The point remains, until the church gets a new revelation of those scriptures you will continue to have this divide.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
23. Error: You've already recommended that thread.
Sorry, I would love to rec this one several times.

Very nice. Bookmarked.

We were able to get the NAACP in our city to come out and include GLBT in a speech about discrimination. We felt it was a huge victory and a chance to really begin to work together. It really was not even difficult, we were working together on a city issue and it happened.

Your insight is welcome and well thought out. I hope everyone reads this.
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:39 AM
Original message
Odd. I'm getting the same error.
Proud to K/R
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. dupe
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 10:39 AM by Harvey Korman
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
24. Excellent post - recommended
:thumbsup:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
25. recommend. -- couple of things --
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 09:49 AM by xchrom
i don't know if you listened to c-span call in this morning -- but the show spoke to many of your observations.

second -- what the obama/mcclurkin thing shows us is that nothing is going to change right now.

is there ground work for the things you address to change?

i don't know -- i'm not heartened by the evangelical gathering this past weekend in washington -- nor by the stand of any of the top tier dem candidates.

i think for the time being things will stay relatively the same.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thanks
No I didn't hear the C-Span show. I wish I did.

I actually think things may get a little worse as far as how the Black community handles this rather than better. I think there is a interesting parallel between how the candidates are handling their respective complications in this. One of the things that deosn;t get mentioned too much among the Black media that I listen too is the rapidly changing demographics in this country. Blacks are no longer the pre-dominant minority, its going to be interesting to see how all minority groups will react to this shifting landscape.

We can either choose to build coalitions or we can get defensive and self-righteous. How we are handling potential relations with the Gay community certainly doesn't give one a lot of confidence that we will handle the inevitable conflicts and differences we may have with the Hispanic community for example.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. i have greater hope for relationships with the hispanic community than
i do with the gay community.

there lies an obvious bridge in that there are african/latin community leaders that can speak to the african/american experience.

the problem with gay folk is more complicated.

riddled with myth and fear -- not unlike the relationship with gay folk and america at large.

i guess it will depend on if -- like white evangelicals -- some african americans use equality issues to divide folk.

i'm not seeing that used extensively right now -- i'm not saying it isn't used at all, i'm in the bay area and witnessed the african american pastors who showed up when gay folk were getting married -- so my thought is that things don't change too much in either direction.

i am grateful for your contribution to this issue and i look forward to hearing much more from you.

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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. i think its part of our internalized racism (or fear of being called racist)
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 09:59 AM by lionesspriyanka
that we accept homophobia from the black community in a way that we would condemn in the white community.

however, i think it all essentially boils down to socioeconomics. Poor people are less educated, and homophobia and other social ills are more likely to foster in poverty.

the country should get its act together on poverty.

i think with significant advances in socioeconomics in the black community we will see a decrease in whatever social problems currently ail this community.

edited to add: great post.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Thank You
I agree to a point.

Yes. Poverty does foster ignorance and higher levels of intolerances due to primarily a fear of the unknown.

But I think we need to be very careful about giving bigotry a pass on the basis that it's proponents are poor.

What disturbs me about some of the comments that I"ve seen on this issue come not from some jackleg preachers in the back of beyond but rich, well heeled leaders of mega churches who have congregations of which a lot of the participants are definitely middle class.

Thanks again for the compliment
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. the rich have always found a way to take advantage of the poor
by the use of the church/mosque/temple/synagogue.

i also think we should not give bigotry a pass, because we don't want to insult the religious.

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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. I think it's more religious than socioeconomic
You have many socioeconomic levels represented in religious institutions and until it is embraced in this community the preconceptions won't change.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
29. Stunning writing.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
31. Mrs. King carried over the belief that gay people
should have the same equal rights. It is one or some of their children that do not see this connection, and sadly some others in our christian community.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I'm glad you brought that up......
becasue it speaks to the point I am trying to make.

I've only been in the Atlanta area for a few years so I had no clue who Bishop Eddie Long was. Well some time ago Bishop Long organized some march that had something to do with protecting the sanctity of marriage. I believe thousands tuned out to show their support for this event and it was at this event that one of Dr King's daughters made the comment that she didn't think her Dad would approve of homosexuality or something to that effect.

So since then I have been waiting to see if Bishop Long would bring his formidable power to bear on other equally important social issues.

So in the time since that March, we've had:

The Genarlow Wilson case
The Jena 6 Case
A young Black man getting beaten to death
and more and more aggressive attempts at Black disenfranchisement

So I've been waiting to hear about the march Bishop Long is putting together

And you know what I hear:

a symphony or crickets and deafening silence of Black boys under assault.



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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. I think that opens up another subject
The influence of mega churches. There are other ministries who are involved in those cases.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yep
Thats a whole other ball of wax.

Thanks god for those other ministries. In many cases, they have been the driving force behind rallying arond some of these terrible issues.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Yes they have
We have to be careful about painting with too broad a brush. We are not a monolith.

As I said, until you change the message coming from the pulpit you will not change hearts and minds.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. I looked this up, because I was interested in it.
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 05:38 PM by Maat
The recently deceased daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Yolanda (his eldest) believed in marriage equality. It sure was a disappointment to me, not to mention a disappointment to Yolanda, that Bernice King didn't (and doesn't) believe in marriage equality.

The NIECE of Dr. King who is anti-equality, Alveda King, also argued vehemently against marriage equality, during Coretta Scott King's
life, with her aunt, about this issue.

Thanks for the post - recommended!
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Thanks for the clarification
I knew I was shaky on the actual details of the story
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. Eh .. I just looked it because I felt sorry for Coretta ...
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 06:36 PM by Maat
I told my kid, "If you even think about coming out against equality ... this PFLAGer will ... ummm ... take your inheritance away!"

Likely, her grandpa, my dad, was a closeted gay until he passed in 2006. I never got a chance to ask him, because he suffered from dementia due to his drinking ... before I became aware of the whole issue.

Thanks for the kind words.

:)
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UncleTomsEvilBrother Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. Oddly enough,
....I was in a group of people who protested that particular "march" by Bishop Eddie Long.

Two main observations were made:

1. Just like many wonderful Black church choirs, many of the members of the tenor section were gay. They were at the march.

2. The area where the marchers marched covered an area where homeless people slept and sought shelter. Some of the marchers literally stepped over the homeless people that day.

I attend church regularly. I vowed to never attend Bishop Eddie Long's again, though.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #62
83. Thanks
For the first hand account.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
108. More on the good Bishop...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
74. Coretta Scott King's words
I just read this compilation the other day, and this seems like a good place to put them on display.


"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said.
- Reuters, March 31, 1998.


Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."
- Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.


"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy," King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement "thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion." Her husband's struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.
- Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.


"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."
- Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.


We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say “common struggle” because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.
- Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.


"We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community," said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader.
- Reuters, June 8, 2001.


For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law.... I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On another occasion he said, “I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.” Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others. So I see this bill as a step forward for freedom and human rights in our country and a logical extension of the Bill of Rights and the civil rights reforms of the 1950’s and ‘60’s. The great promise of American democracy is that no group of people will be forced to suffer discrimination and injustice. - Coretta Scott King, remarks, press conference on the introduction of ENDA, Washington, DC, June 23, 1994.



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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
36. Excellent piece
Thank you so much for stating this here.
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Grandrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
38. Excellent post! (K&R)
You are be congratulated for a much needed...informative and sensitive message.
Please keep them coming, you have a gift and thanks for sharing!:applause: :kick:
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
39. K&R
:applause:

Beautiful. Thank you for this.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. Fantastic post. n/t
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. k&r
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
44. Great post, great thread.
k&r
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
45. Excellent OP.
:applause:

:thumbsup:
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. Submit this as an LTTE to your local newspaper.
Damn fine writing! Thank you for posting this. :hi:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
48. The Canadian experience -- interesting lessons?
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 12:34 PM by iverglas
This post is going to be a bit long.

The Chinese-Canadian community is a significant factor in politics here. In the 2001 census, about 1 of every 30 people reported Chinese ethnic origin -- over a million people. The proportion is much higher in large cities like Toronto and Vancouver.

The "ethnic vote", historically, goes disproportionately to the Liberal Party here. And the Liberal Party regards the ethnic vote as its private fiefdom, reliable and needing only a little care and grooming and lip service. Ethnic voters are Liberal voters. Kinda like African-American voters, and the Democratic Party.

Meanwhile, if the Conservative Party wants to make inroads in the big cities, it has to attract ethnic voters. And playing on their "social conservatism" looks like easy money.

Same-sex marriage was really won here in the courts, based on the violation of the constitutional guarantee of equal treatment. Had any of the cases won in the provincial courts gone to the Supreme Court, that court would have struck down provincial refusals to issue marriage licences to same-sex couples, beyond a doubt. The definition of marriage itself, however, is under federal jurisdiction here. So the feds were under pressure to do something -- pressure from two sides to do two different things, of course.

Never missing a chance to avoid taking a stand on something, the Liberals formulated a reference to the Supreme Court about the validity of a law defining marriage as between any two people (not otherwise prohibited). (The same thing was done in Massachusetts, in reverse, I believe: the validity of a law defining marriage as between two people of the opposite sex only.) The Court pretty much threw it back at them.

Now, back to Chinese Canadians. Many are Christian, in large part because of the evangelical activities of the United Church of Canada in China many years ago. The UCC is an extremely liberal church, theologically, and in the forefront of many social justice issues in Canada. A couple of decades ago, the ordination of gay and lesbian clergy became an issue; when ordination was approved, many Chinese congregations left the church. Chinese Canadians have a widely perceived image as being socially very "conservative". And many of them are.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/04/09/same-sex-050409.html
Thousands of people who oppose same-sex marriage rallied on Parliament Hill Saturday, cheering as Conservative Leader Stephen Harper pledged to support the traditional definition of the union.

... "I'm here because I agree with the normal definition of marriage," said protester Oliver Locke.

Fay Chow, who came with hundreds of Chinese-Canadians from Toronto, agreed. "We want all the members of Parliament to know how the majority of Canadians feel about marriage."

Here's an interesting blog from a different kind of Chinese Canadian. (Where any parallel between the Chinese Canadian community and the African-American community fails is that the immigration phenomenon, and Canada's different approach to cultural diversity and integration, are important here: successive generations tend to integrate into the broader society and adhere to its values -- which in Canada place great emphasis on diversity and equality -- while maintaining their cultural identity if they choose.)

http://blog.generasian.ca/whos-this-ugly-guy/
I have Chinese-Canadian roots and have a fascination with the evolution of this community in the city we now know as Vancouver the anglo name for XwMuthkwium (Musqueam)… traditional lands of the Stó:lô Nation (Coast Salish peoples) and better known as Saltwater City (Haam Sui Fhwow) to long time CbC’s (Canadian born Chinese).

http://blog.generasian.ca/2007/07/
Homos, Conservatives and Chinese

July 31, 2007 by tUCC.

Homos. As in Homosexuals.

This was the word tossed about when I was growing up in East Van. Now the politically correct word is “same sex”, Gay or Lesbian. It is a word used without much thought by some kids, and used by others to hurt.

I’ve got to admit, I wasn’t always so “tolerant”. I grew up with a lot of hate.

... A few years back, there was a gigantic rally by some people against what they considered “anti-family” values. Things like homosexuality and the definition of the word Marriage. The rally appeared to have a very strong support from a lot of Chinese Christian groups. And a lot of these protesters seemed to have recently obtained their Canadian citizenships. I assumed this observation, as they were shouting slogans in Mandarin and Cantonese… not in English and not in Taishanese, the dialect of the original wave of early Chinese. ...

He then quotes a lengthy article from the Toronto Globe and Mail; Harper is of course Stephen Harper, who was at that time seeking to form his first government. Here is where I'm seeing some similarities in the situations:
Harper uses same-sex to tap into ethnic vote
BRIAN LAGHI, ANTHONY REINHART AND AND ROY MACGREGOR
GLOBE AND MAIL Feb 12, 2005

... People like Mrs.Qiong are at the heart of Conservative Leader Stephen Harper’s strategy of gaining support from traditional Liberal voters by enlisting ethnic communities to fight the federal government’s same-sex legislation.

... Mr. Harper’s tactics stem, in part, from a survey conducted by the Conservative Party before last month’s Victoria caucus meeting. According to party sources, the poll, which did not include Quebec voters, found that the governing Liberals were supported by 31 per cent of decided voters compared with 28 per cent for the Tories. More importantly, however, pollsters asked how many of those voters would consider leaving the Liberal Party if it supported same-sex marriage.

What they found startled them.

A full six percentage points of Liberal supporters said they would consider exiting their party.
By contrast, Tory support dropped by only two percentage points when supporters were asked whether they would drift away should the caucus oppose the bill.

Party officials concluded that the six-percentage-point drop for the Liberals was probably made up of small-c ethnic supporters, and decided at that point to begin running controversial newspaper ads opposing gay marriage.

“We’re the only ones who win under that calculation,” said one Conservative member of Parliament, who asked not to be identified by name.


So the question; is this something like what is going on in the Democratic Party?

The "ethnic" vote (in Canada) and the African-American vote in the US is the Liberal/Democratic Party's to lose.

That vote is, with some good grounds, perceived as being more "socially conservative" than voters on average.

By espousing "socially liberal" causes like same-sex marriage, the Liberal Party / Democratic Party is risking losing a small but potentially crucial block of votes.

What does the Liberal Party / Democratic Party do about it?

Panders to the voters in question.

The Liberal Party allowed a free vote on its equal marriage bill in the House of Commons. (This is extremely rare, and is done only on matters that the party leader defines as "matters of conscience". You know. Abortion. Ordinarily, MPs must vote with the party or be expelled from the party caucus, and thus be denied assistance with re-election.)

The Liberal Party could have stood up and said We are the party of rights and freedoms; we are the party of inclusion; we are the party that represents the Canadian values of diversity and equality and respect for the dignity and worth of individuals. It didn't.

Meanwhile, some Chinese Canadians were and are quite peeved about the monolithic portrayal of their community in public discourse in Canada, and the exploitation of their community by the right wing.

At a press conference held just before the Supreme Court of Canada released its opinion on the same-sex marriage reference -- aha, I've finally found a report of that press conference:

http://www.avi.org/node/422
"The Chinese Canadian National Council adds its voice in support of the interveners advocating for same-sex marriage rights," Kenneth Cheung, CCNC National Chairperson said today. "We will continue to work in collaboration with other equality-seeking groups to fight discrimination and advance human rights and social justice in Canada. The federal government should introduce new legislation swiftly since the recent lower court rulings are clearly in support of including same-sex marriage."

That was his prepared statement. What he said live was that he was sick of his community being manipulated by the right wing for its own ends, and being publicly portrayed as intolerant.


Those are the kinds of people whom political candidates who support rights and freedoms, and believe in the equal dignity and worth of all people, should be seeking out and sharing platforms with.

Sharing platforms with people who don't do that, at events and in messages geared to a particular community, insults people within that community (apart altogether from insulting the targets of the bigotry in question) who do not share the bigotry.

And it's just one more brick on the path to we are just as right-wing as those other guys.

If you are, why bother? If you aren't, don't be. Don't advocate policies that violate rights and freedoms, don't associate yourself with people who do and/or who express bigoted opinions about groups of people, and don't try to manipulate blocks of voters by legitimizing the worst characteristics of some of their members.


Oops, forgot to say. Of course I recommended the opening post, and I think it was terrific. ;)

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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Interesting
I think the main difference is that I don't think Gay Rights has been elevated to the status of a true "wedge" issue in the Black community right now. The strongest and most vocal opponents, social conservatives, also bring to the table a lot of baggage that we in the Black community find much more objectionable. But I slowly think the homophobia in the Black community is slowly bubbling to the surface and I hope it is dealt with in an open and honest manner rather than a retreat into an untenable position.

Thanks for the rec
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
49. Wow.
:thumbsup:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. Damn that's a kick ass post, BronxBoy.
:kick:
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
52. Mel White often discusses the idea of "recognition".
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 02:06 PM by 94114_San_Francisco
Your contrast of contemporary Christian "White" morality and the historic principles of the civil rights movement is beautifully done. I don't often have the opportunity to discuss these themes with African-Americans so I'm very grateful to you for this post.

When you write, "Because if we looked at the issue straight on, we have some very uncomfortable truths to deal with." it reminds me of Mel White's observations about conservative Christian morality, too. You're speaking to second-class citizenship in this instance but Mel speaks to the uncomfortable truths of those who argue from a moral perspective. As I understand it, if fundamentalist/evangelical Christians were to recognize the inherent worth and dignity of LGBT people, their "orthodoxy" (and/or spiritual "identity") will become unrecognizable. We are talking about the literal Word of God.

LGBT rights must seem like a terrible threat to them. I imagine the fear it produces must be intolerable. And even more unfortunate is how those fears are manipulated both politically and spiritually. I can't imagine anyone from the AFA, Focus on the Family or Concerned Women for America saying, "We were wrong about LGBT people." I believe that any initiative for them to change will continue to come from secular institutions and the passage of time.

I didn't mean to go off on a tangent here. All I really wanted to say was how much I enjoyed your post. Thanks for your leadership on these issues -- I hope you'll post more often. :thumbsup: :hi:

edit: you're


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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Thank You
And I agree with you about th passage of time. Hopefully that will bring some changes but once again, just like the dilemma facing Black Americans in the 50s and 60s, how long must someone wait to be given their rights. How many times were we told, "now is not the right time". And how exasperated did we get when we were told it over and over and over.

And you are spot on about the fear. While I'm not a "religious" person per se, I don't belittle anyone's beliefs either. But I really wouldn't want to be a part of a faith that drew all of its pwoer from the generation of fear: Fear of the Afterlife, Fear of those who worship a different deity, Fear of sexual orientation or fear of color. Religion should be about coming together and celebrating something greater than our collective selves and not emphasizing and exploting our differences
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. You're welcome!
Speaking of the passage of time...

I have the greatest respect for Fannie Lou Hamer. She's been an inspiration (although I have no idea how she'd view LGBT civil rights). "I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired" still rings true, even though the context of LGBT equality is vastly different. I admire her leadership -- and her courage. Is it any wonder why LGBT people are so inspired by the civil rights movement?

One last thought about contemporary Christian leadership and power: it doesn't encourage autonomy (moral independence in this case) or authentic empathy. Social justice requires people who are skilled at both.

Glad to have you as an advocate, BronxBoy. As I am yours.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. Great post.
Thanks for sharing. :hi: :hug:
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
60. The key difference is nobody can't claim being Black is a choice.
This is where education comes into play.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
61. K&R. Person can be born Black, female, gay. Deny a person their birthright is bigotry.
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ideagarden Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
63. Jerry Falwell and the I hate you because your not a part of my group idea
I'm surprised that none have mentioned Falwell and his role in
stirring "the pot of hate".  Moral principles when
instilled become harder to UN-ingrain then those self
discovered.  It seems that there are too many willing to
interpret and instill from a 2000+ year old book (or two or
three). the editing there of, and conclude one thing or
another.   I feel that it is not religion per-se that
formulates hate, but the interpreters.  Often hate is the
manifestation of fear, but I would ask is not discovery a
better alternative to alleviate that fear?  I have also seen
hate as an exclusionary process, where by some group wants to
feel exalted or above some other group.  As part of a
popular-culture, sophistry, etc. this makes the exalted group
feel good about themselves.  For instance, Falwell had his
believers feel great, because since they were not gay, then
they must be in god's light and better.  This is diversionary
and caustic to the soul of any human: to lie and swear by it! 


"Why are they so sick and ridiculous?  ... brain wash and
teach you hate"  Charles Mingus from Original Faubus
Fables (as a side note this is a great song)

Why indeed!  As a whole humanity is stronger with maximal
diversity.  The more diverse we are the greater our universe
of understanding.  To bound and subjugate a group is to deny
ourselves awareness, to deny ourselves perspective, and to
deny ourselves to a universe outside our own dogma.  To be the
interpreter of my own soul as compared to the rest of the
world: Everything alive is significant!

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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Welcome to DU!
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
64. Wonderful writing,
and a thought provoking OP for everyone.

K&R
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
66. Standing Ovation!
Well said, well said indeed!
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Michael101 Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
67. Oh-uh Time To Peel Off the Obama Bumper Stickers!!
Well Mr. Obama seems desperate for the African American Vote. Stooping really low there though. He's a great guy, but he is not ready to be President. Too gullible, I bet the people around him are telling him to do this and it is just wrong. He must stand firm in what he believes in, no matter what others around him say. He needs to take a page from the Dennis Kucinich book. Strong man who stands by his believes and what is right for this country. Mr. Obama just keep raking in those millions from lobbyist.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Thank you for your post!
As much as people want to make this about Obama, the larger issue is how the Black community perceives and reacts to the issue of Gay rights. That's the story behind this story. This will not be an issue for the Obama campaign two weeks from now.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
68. Excellent, beautifully written post! How fortunate for DU to have you as a participant!
Recommended, of course.

I am neither black nor gay. And I live in an area where the main battles for civil rights and respect involve the treaty rights and dignity of American Indians.

But I think it's all the same fight -- the fight against the cultural attitude which implicitly decrees that there is only one default model of "normal" and "worthy" and "human". That default model being the white, "christian" heterosexual male.

Yes, as a woman, there is no way for me leave gender politics out of this mix. In fact, I see the animosity toward homosexuals as largely just another point on the continuum of hatred and fear toward the feminine.

My apologies, I didn't intend to ramble so...

I'll get back to my main point: you have written a most excellent post! Thank you!

sw
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Hi Scarletwoman!
I don't feel you rambled nor are any apologies necessary. :hi: This is a discussion board and we are here to discuss things.

I thank you for bringing up the perspective of Native Americans. Its funny that as all of the racial components that make up this nation deal with these difficult issues, especially when we have to confront our embedded prejudices and biases, that you rarely ever hear about the injustices meted about to the original inhabitants of this land.

I'll have to digest your comment about hatred of homosexuals being just another step in the continuum of hatred towards the feminine. I'd be interested to hear the take of some of our GLBT members on that as that concept enters waters that I am totally unprepared to swim in.



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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
87. Hi back atcha -- and thanks.
Sorry to be so long in getting back to you, but I was off on other topics.

As to my proposition that homophobia is part of the same continuum in which misogyny is found, I sincerely regret that I am too tired right now to delve further into it. Not trying to cop out, it's just that I'm already up way too late, and my brain is shutting down for the night. I have to get up for work in less than 6 hours.

Tomorrow evening when I get back home, I'll endeavor to expand on what I mean. Until then, let me thank you again for an excellent post.

Best wishes,
sw
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. harold Mayberry
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
73. Assimilation
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:08 PM by Baby Snooks
The minority communities in large part believe that by adopting the homophobia of the "majority" they will be accepted finally - I have always felt that and have wondered how someone who has been denied protections and rights under the law can support denying those same protections and rights to someone else and for those who say Barack Obama does not, you need to look again at what he will be standing beside on that stage. He does.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and I cannot and will not support someone who believes otherwise and unfortunately it appears there is no one to vote for. Barack Obama is not alone in his pandering to the evangelicals. But he is by far the worst of the lot.

If Lyndon Johnson had taken the attitude of the current Democratic candidates towards equality under the law, we would not have had the Civil Rights Act. Barack Obama and the rest who pander to the evangelicals are a disgrace to the memory of those who fought for civil rights for all.


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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. I had to think about this one for a moment...
I don't think this is a matter of looking for acceptance. To be brutally honest, I just think there are certain segments of the Black community who view Gay people as abnormal. And if Jim Crow were resurrected tomorrow, there would still be a segment of our community who would still feel this way.

No. I think certain segments of the Black community are adopting the rhetoric of, as you call them, the evangelicals not because they think they will get acceptance from by White America at large but because if provides a tested and well worn cover for taking a bigoted stand against something that they should know is inherently wrong.
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Sandaasu Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
76. Well said!
This is something that is so very important for us to deal with, and soon.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
78. And queers of color are silent and invisible.
Just like some would want us to be.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Yep...
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:48 PM by BronxBoy
Silent and Invisible...

But wanting queers of color to be ready to be used as cultural icons whenever the situation calls for it.

edited: Because the original reply was very poorly worded
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. I hate being caught in the middle.
And in a lot of ways, I'm fortunate--I'm not a Christian. I'm not in any way shape or form part of the church scene anymore and I feel no regrets about it.

GLBT black folks in the church get nothing but sympathy from me. The divided loyalties, trying to reconcile who you are with the acceptance you'll never really get...it's really fucking brutal. It was very easy for me to walk away from that because Christianity has never been the religion for me and I never fit in in that environment. But for some that sense of community is hard to let go of.

Especially considering how hostile the larger GLBT community is WRT POC.
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MsKandice01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. Exactly why I am not at all surprised by McClurkin's comments...
As I indicated in a post just the other day, Donnie McClurkin is a closeted gay man. He's not homophobic, it's his own sexuality that he hates because there is no place for "his kind" in the black church. I'm agnostic but with every black church I've been to over the years, I can't imagine a single one where an openly gay man would be accepted among a large portion of the congregation. That's not to say that there aren't gay black men in the church...there are MANY of them, but they're closeted and as vitriolic against gay people as anyone you'll ever see.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was invented in the black church
For real.

There isn't a black church in America with a straight minister of music yet as long as they keep their mouths shut about their Saturday night activities, everything is fine Sunday morning. But let someone live openly...then it's a scandal.

Funny how no one has anything to say about the umpteen love offerings in a church and Pastor's new Mercedes, but let a Sunday School teacher talk about her partner or the flaming choir director talk about the man he's been with for 20 years.

It's shameful, it's always been shameful, and if nothing else comes out of this Obama mess, hopefully the black church's dirty laundry will be aired in public so it will be forced to justify this bullshit to an unsympathetic public.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #89
103. Black churches are not monolithic, as I'm sure you know.
My partner and I are members of a very old, and almost entirely Black, Episcopal church. We had our union blessed in that church. There are a fair number of openly gay and lesbian people, and we are accepted and respected. Although the largest Black denominations take a hostile view, they do not represent the entire specturm. Unity Fellowship Church is a mostly GLBT Black Christian denomination. At this point, I don't understand why people stay in hostile environments when there are accepting alternatives.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. There is only one Baptist church in DC that welcomes and performs LGBT marriages
Covenant Baptist. And it's Black.

But some of the members are upset. "Straight people are leaving and gay people are coming in."

How many times have we heard that before, said in so many ways.

Here are a few brief passages from recent Washington Post article.

Rift Over Gay Unions Reflects Battle New to Black Churches

By Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, August 19, 2007; Page C01

Never in a "million years" did Robert Renix think he would find a Baptist church that would accept someone like him: a black Baptist gay man. Never mind one that would allow what happened one Saturday last month, when a tuxedo-clad Renix stood in front of the pulpit at Covenant Baptist Church in Anacostia, exchanging vows with his partner, Antonio Long.
...
About 140 members jammed into the fellowship hall a few weeks later for a tense meeting about the recent decision of Covenant co-pastors Dennis and Christine Wiley to conduct same-sex union ceremonies. Some expressed their opposition through Bible verses, saying they were worried that Covenant was getting a reputation as a "gay church." Others wept as they defended the Wileys, said people who were there.

"I don't care who does it in their bedroom with whom," said Yvonne Moore, a longtime member who left the church over the same-sex ceremonies. "But don't bring that foolishness into my church."
...
The Wileys say the backlash in their church caught them by surprise. For years, they have preached that homosexuality is not a sin. Despite the objections, they performed another same-sex union ceremony Aug. 10, for a lesbian couple.
...
The split reflects a tug of war that is developing between a few black churches willing to welcome gays and black denominations that consider homosexuality a sin.
...
In the pews at the church's 10:45 a.m. service on Sundays, gay and transgender people sit among heterosexual families and elderly retirees.

Although the Wileys face opposition, they say they believe they are being called by God to preach acceptance of gays as part of the social justice agenda long embraced by black churches.

"We, as African Americans, should be the last people in the world, based on our history, to turn around and oppress others," said Dennis Wiley, who took over as Covenant's pastor from his father, the Rev. H. Wesley Wiley, 22 years ago....

And that was fine with church member Martha Battle, who said she didn't mind Covenant's outreach to gays at first, because "everybody needs to be saved."

But now, "straight people are leaving and gay people are coming in," said Battle, who left the church with her 13-year-old grandson after the Wileys began performing same-sex union ceremonies. "They're taking over. I'm sick to my stomach over this mess. It's not right. Why should we have to leave and let them come in and take over the church?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/18/AR2007081801167_2.html


It's extraordinary. Some white folks were saying the same thing about blacks taking over Covenant Baptist Church 45 years ago, when blacks began showing up Sunday morning. It was the height of the civil rights movement, the end of Jim Crow. In this day and age of civil rights for LGBT people can you hear the echo in your voice Martha Battle?



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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. I wish more churches were like yours
I don't understand why people stay in hostile enviroments either. The only reason I can come up with is they just don't know that there's a better way. Especially in the smaller, more insular churches.

I know the fear and hate I saw as a child ended up driving me out of the religion altogether. Every church I saw was the same way. To this day I have a lot of issues regarding Christianity and Christians. Now I know that not all of them are hateful but it's so damn hard to remember that when the loud ones are the hatemongers.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #78
101. I attempted a thread But some of us are Brave. Sank quickly.
I'm Black, Gay, and still an Obama supporter. I'm not happy about some of the performers, but not bailing because of them. I feel somewhat caught in the middle, in that this is being played as a fight between Blacks and Gays, when many of us live both realities. I'm also tired of the idea that Black people are somehow more homophobic. That is simply not true, and from a political standpoint I don't think you will find a group more supportinve of the GLBT community than the Congressional Black Caucus.

I fully appreciate Bronxboy's OP, but there is hypocrisy going on all around. I can't shake a nagging thought that many of the people here who display the most outrage never considered voting for Obama in the first place. Obama is still a Black man by American terms, and progress has not been as great as it could be.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. Very well said
I totally agree with you.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Thank you.
I don't think black folks are more homophobic. It's conservative hypocrites that are the problem and we have those in every shade of the rainbow. Fighting for justice and equality "except for those people" is bullshit, especially when "those people" are your brothers, uncles, mothers and daughters. There seems to be this perception among black conservatives, especially religious conservatives, that queerness is an example of white hedonism and if (IF) blacks are queer it's an example of self-hatred and trying to adopt "white values". I saw this attitude in school a lot, where "obviously" I had to be queer because, you know, I was an "oreo". The mental gymnastics they go to in order to justify making us invisible are crazy.

OTOH you have situations like the largely white gayborhoods that cropped up in a lot of areas, gentrifying spaces and basically throwing out the native POC in many cases. Queer whites all too often plug their ears when it comes to POC concerns even within the GLBT community, much less building bridges outside of it. There's been progress but we have such a long way to go.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
79. Your post made me
cry for all the injustices through the centuries that people place on others to feel better about themselves.

Excellent writing, BronxBoy!
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DemFemme Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
81. Very true. I tried to explain this to someone here yesterday who just didn't get it. n/t
K&R
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. While it's such a simple thing...
it's a very hard thing for some people to get.

Why? Because it requires a level of introspection and self analysis that most people don't want to go through. It's a very, very difficult thing to look in the mirror and tell the reflection looking back at you that it has some of it persona is fucked up and needs some fixing.

Trust me. I've tried and it is painful as hell to acknowledge that there are portions of you that are well...just fucked up.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #82
107. Indeed. The church informs.
I have a Fundiepraline cousin who is morbidly obese - married to a "feeder," has had 2 abortions, voted for * TWICE because he would STOP THEM and SAVE women from "Judgement" as she put it, has come out to me and when I ask her why she's married to a man tells me of "covenant." :shrug: Whatever. She dare not take a piss without hubby's permission. :freak: Mucho weird shit.:crazy:

What her "pastor said" was the medium and the message. I would never volunteer for the task of pointing out any tiny inconsistency. She was such a sweet baby cousin when I was a kid. She'd NUTZOID now.

Being an object of derision, for whatever -ism or reason is crazy-making. It also makes you a target. Many cope by adopting any "I-ain't-one-of-THEM" strategy available.

So Obama will likely NOT back down on McCloset in a bid for "Black Conservatives'" support. :rofl: WHAT A WOILD we live in!

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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
85. At the end of the day, "Black America" overwhelmingly supports Democrats
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 10:12 PM by Truth Hurts A Lot
who overwhelmingly support gay rights. Can the same be said for bigots in non-black America? :eyes:

Sorry, but your broad paintbrush, anti-black diatribe will not get a recommendation from me. I'm not surprised everyone else is scrambling to recommend your post. I guess it's OK for you to use such a broad paint brush since you claim to be black.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Way to miss the goddamn point.
I can't speak for the OP, but he's not saying black folks are inherently more homophobic than white folks. It's not an "anti-black" diatribe to point out that yes, our community is fucked up and dysfunction WRT our GLBT kin. So are white folks and pretty much every racial group. But queer POC and black folks in particular have our own set of issues to deal with, juggling multiple identities and dealing with alienation in a way that white folks never really have to face, even queer whites. I think about my own family and how my bisexuality is pretty much an open secret but I will never, ever be able to be out to them. Queer black women have it even worse because there's this whole expectation built on bullshit patriarchal notions of "family" and our role in it (marry a Strong Black Man and have Strong Black Babies).

I'm sorry that you think that was a diatribe rather than an honest admission that hey, the way GLBT folks are treated in the black church is kinda FUBAR and needs to be addressed. This whole issue is a lot more complex than either the mouth-foaming atheists or the blind Obama supporters are making it out to be, and I think a lot of that has to do with ignorance about the social and cultural dynamics of the black community & church.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #90
104. well, that was nice
This whole issue is a lot more complex than either the mouth-foaming atheists or the blind Obama supporters are making it out to be

I guess I'm a mouth-foaming atheist.

I'm also a woman. I'm quite familiar with the concept and experience of double deviance. In fact, I coined that expression for a paper I wrote in a sociology class many moons ago, about women criminals / criminal women.

Black people, in white/European societies, are deviant, deviance being a social construct. They are defined as having attributes that are not "normal" or "good" attributes of human beings. Those attributes are ascribed to them because of the group they belong to -- this being the essence of prejudice and stereotyping.

"Normal" people are, say, assertive. Women are not supposed to be assertive. Women who are assertive are shrill, strident, hysterical, unladylike, etc. Normal people are not supposed to focus too much on their appearance. Women are supposed to be obsessed with their appearance. Women who are not obsessed with their appearance are not feminine.

"Feminine" means the opposite of most of the things that are "normal" for human beings, and in fact means things that are considered unhealthy in human beings. Women are, by definition, deviant human beings. A woman who acts in unfeminine ways is a deviant/unhealthy woman. You can't win.

Black people, obviously, have the same problem. There is a stereotype of black people that is in many ways the opposite of "normal" and healthy. Black people are defined as deviant human beings. Black people who act contrary to the stereotype are uppity, etc. They are deviant black people. Deviant deviants.

Start throwing in some deviations from the "normal" human being as well, and you've got trouble. Be gay or lesbian if you're black, a criminal if you're a woman ... people aren't supposed to be gay or lesbian, GLBT people aren't supposed to be black, black people are especially not supposed to be gay or lesbian ... people aren't supposed to be criminals, criminals aren't supposed to be women, women are especially not supposed to be criminals ... and you're increasingly out of luck.

And the people in that situation are stuck being deviants in all of their major identity groups. As black people, as GLBT people, as women, as criminals -- and of course, multiply, as human beings.

And no, I am not "comparing" homosexuality to criminality, in any way other than that they both involve social constructs of the people with the characteristic. I could just as easily talk about being a woman lawyer, another doubly deviant set at the time I was becoming one. (Fortunately, "lawyer" carries advantages, even though it is in many ways regarded as deviant from the social construct of human being.)

Around when I was writing that paper (and books started being written on the subject), feminists were organizing to work in the interests of women in the criminal justice and corrections system, who had special needs being neglected both by prisoners' rights organizations and women's rights organizations. I was one of them.

The counterpart would be for African-American organizations ... like churches ... to organize in the interests of gay and lesbian African-Americans.

Obviously, there are very different dynamics at work. But there is a common thread: in rejecting the stereotype of one's group, be it defined by race/culture/skin colour or by sex, the group has to reject *all* of that stereotype, which includes the notion that women who are criminals are failures as women, and that African-Americans who are gay or lesbian are failures as African-Americans.

And obviously, I, not being African-American or lesbian or a resident of the US, am not qualified to speak to any of the groups involved about what they oughta be doing and how they oughta be doing it.

I am qualified, though, as a human being, to denounce bigotry, of any kind. I can understand its origins, in groups and in individuals, and I can be especially sensitive to the reasons why members of stereotyped and hated groups find it difficult to embrace members of their group who seem to be roadblocks to their efforts to break down the stereotypes and gain respect.

If you're trying to prove to the world that you are "normal" and good, embracing people whom the world defines as abnormal and bad can be a very difficult thing to do. And obviously, the women's movement has long struggled with the same issues as the African-American community, when it comes to embracing lesbian members of the group.

There are atheists who are deeply involved in the anti-choice movement. I don't get to badmouth them as atheists because of their misogyny. There are women who are deeply involved in right-wing politics. I don't get to badmouth them as women -- to call them bitches, or claim they are not "real women" -- because of it. For me to do that is to perpetuate the stereotype of women.

Rejection of gay and lesbian African-Americans by African-Americans strikes me the same way. They are being defined out of the group that is in many cases their primary identity group: they're not real black people, because real black people aren't gay or lesbian. The same could be said of Christians rejecting gay men and lesbians: they're not real Christians.

The people these groups reject are being denied full membership in an identity group that is an important part of their selves. Such rejection is enormously destructive for individuals.

That's what bigotry is about. Hurting people. And that's what the (Christian) African-Americans who behave this way toward the gay and lesbian members of their community are doing. Understand it as one may, one does not have to remain silent about it -- or about others remaining silent about it, which is what the Obama/McClurkin pairing amounts to and what this is about.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #90
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #90
117. AND the unwillingness to see
Edited on Sat Oct-27-07 07:33 AM by Karenina
us as anything other than a monolith.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. Anti-Black????
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 05:10 AM by BronxBoy
Yeah I am Black and why is it anti-Black to point out that we have problems dealing with issue of homosexuality? Here's a news flash for you skipper: It is allowable for us to speak to issues that don't always portray us in the best light. In fact true development comes not from burnishing your accomplishments but from examining your faults.

Our community does have a problem with this issue and it goes deeper than just voting for candidates who YOU think support Gay rights.

Of U.S. women currently living with the virus, about 64 percent are African Americans, and another 15 percent are Latina. HIV-AIDS remains the leading cause of death for African American women aged 25 to 34, and a top-four cause for black women 35 to 54. It's also the fourth-leading cause of death for Latina women 35 to 44. Younger women remain at higher risk and only cancer and heart disease kill more women annually.<\b>

http://www.alternet.org/sex/55182/

So let me see if I got this right: 65% of the women in this country who have HIV are Black and it is the leading cause of death for women from ages 25-34. It's my opinion that part of the reason for this epidemic is that Black churches haven't been as aggressive in dealing with this issue because it brings to light some uncomfortable topics for them. It's NOT the only reason but I believe it is a cause.

But I should just sit down and shut up because we vote Democratic, right?

Yep, it's like I said:

Whistling past the graveyard as the band plays on.

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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Truth Hurts makes a valid point
This was a broad brush analysis that you've given. I've made those comments in this post but they've been overlooked.

It really is not about hypocrisy more than it is about the what they've been taught in church. It also has nothing to do with adopting the latest teachings of the evangelicals. Until you can change the hearts and minds of the ministers nothing will change. If you can change their minds of the biblical passages that they feel support their position you will continue to have this disagreement. You all can call it bigoted but many feel they have justification, through their bible, for their beliefs, just as Muslims have the same belief.

That being said, it is inexcusable for them to be hateful and lash out at someone who has a different lifestyle. The problem is when they are accused of this when they express their opinion. There are some Christians who have been hateful and that it wrong but it's also wrong to say they all are hateful, hypocritical or bigoted.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #95
100. I have to respectfully disagree Ella...
I had to go back and reread what I wrote:

I have been observant of how many in our community, especially the clergy and the churches have framed the debate on this subject. Most have taken to the same playbook used by The Christian "White" and framed this issue as one of morality. "It is against Gods Will" Or "It's not natural".

Sorry but I stand by that statement. Most do adopt an attitude that many gay people would find discriminatory and bigoted. I'd be more than happy to reconsider the point if someone can provide me with information citing the opposite. And I certainly don't feel that bringing this up and discussing it is "anti-black"

And as far as calling it bigotry, should we not call it bigotry because people can justify their behavior as part of their faith? That's a major theme that runs through the counter arguments against hate crimes. That by enabling hate speech, we take away a person's right to preach their faith. Suppose I were Gay and an Atheist, (which as far as I know is sill perfectly acceptable in America today) should I not receive rights that other Americans have simply because the tenets of another's faith justifies it?

But I certainly agree with you that this is a difficult topic that probably won't be resolved in a quick manner.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #100
105. I never said anti-black
But I did agree about the broad brushing. We have no disagreement that it originated in the church. You are absolutelty correct to say that. I have disagreement as to whether it was adopted from the Christian "White". christianity is not the only religion to believe this.

I also agree that many gay people would find the remarks bigoted and discriminatory. That's where the problem comes in. Just because a person believes a certain way doesn't mean they hate you. There are hateful Christians who don't use wisdom with their words. There are also others who respond in an equally hateful manner.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
115. The Down Low???
:shrug:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
86. most excellent.
:thumbsup:
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
91. K&R
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
93.  that was well said
thanks for the contribution on this subject that has divided this board
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
98. This is an amazing post. Thank you.,.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
99. Woo-hoo!!!!
:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #99
112. . .
:kick:
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
114. Good thing I pay attention to the..
Good thing I pay attention to the candidates themselves rather than their supporters...

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