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Did you know Biden and Kennedy have each introduced bills banning waterboarding?

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:30 PM
Original message
Did you know Biden and Kennedy have each introduced bills banning waterboarding?
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 10:31 PM by gateley
Did you know that Congress was considering a law that would "explicitly ban" waterboarding and other extreme techniques? This has flown kind of under the radar, but it turns out that there are two such bills before Congress right now. One is a measure being sponsored by Senator Ted Kennedy; the other is being sponsored by Senator Joe Biden. Both unequivocally ban waterboarding and other torture practices.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/11/after_confirmin.php


I didn't have a clue - did you? I'm unfamiliar with this blog so I'm going to do more research, but I hope it's true and that it puts an end to the waffling of Mukasey since it appears he'll be getting the appointment.


Oops - edited to add - GOOD FOR JOE! :7






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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. It can't hurt, but there shouldn't be a need to ban already illegal practices.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Not if the Attorney General and the Supreme Court say otherwise.
But a specific law banning waterboarding would guarantee its illegality. Cheers to Biden and Kennedy for recognizing this and doing something about it.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Bush needs it "explained" to him more clearly evidently
How pathetic that we've reached this point in our society.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Congress has the option of directing the executive and judiciary through clarifying legislation
When the executive interprets law in a certain way, Congress has the proper option of clarifying the legislation. Congress can really only act through legislation.

Similarly, the courts can interpret HR-243 to mean "x" and congress can pass legislation saying, "no HR-243 says "y""

It's the correct thing to do when a statute is being mal-interpreted.
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well,I can't speak for Mr. Biden's bill, but...
...I am familiar with the Kennedy bill in question (S. 1943, BTW) -- which is being co-sponsored by someone else with a similar POV on this stuff, ahem -- and I reckon as how you can expect to start hearing a whole lot more about that one in the next day or two...


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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Excellent! This entire waterboarding fiasco has been tragic and pointless. These
steps that Kennedy & Kerry and Biden are proposing SHOULD be unnecessary. I just hope one of them gets approved ASAP!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Torture is already illegal.
Itemizing what is torture is not a good idea as it opens the door to the argument that if it isn't in the list it isn't torture. You cannot hurt humiliate or degrade or threaten to hurt humiliate or degrade people detained by the state. It is a very simple and clear concept.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Right. That's why we're not doing it. Congratulations. You just made Bush's argument.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Uh wrong.
Their claim is that 'these painful, humiliating and degrading techniques we are doing are not torture', and that claim is false. Furthermore, attempting to itemize exactly which techniques qualify, as I said, allows the torturers to simply move on to other techniques.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. You have a point, but it seems something specifically needs to be done now.
I can't breathe when I think of the INSANITY of this entire issue! And what really fries me is that I think they're doing it to get false information to support their agenda.

I just kind of realized that. I was going to rant about how torture doesn't garner legit intel, but then it occurred to me they don't WANT legit intel.

It's probably been stated here dozens of times, but it just now sank in.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. That's exactly my point. They claim it's not torture, so it continues. Hello?
Pass such a bill, and it ends. Sure, it's a false claim. If it wasn't we wouldn't be having this discussion. But Bush gets away with it because he's a corrupt president. Pass such a law against waterboarding and our soon to be AG has stated he would enforce that law.
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Yup. And it can't get much simpler and clearer (or harder to auto-parse out of) than...



A BILL

To establish uniform standards for interrogation techniques applicable to individuals under the custody or physical control of the United States Government.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. UNIFORM STANDARDS FOR INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES APPLICABLE TO INDIVIDUALS UNDER CONTROL OR CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

(a) In General- No individual in the custody or under the effective control of the United States Government or any agency or instrumentality thereof, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by sections 5-50 through 5-99 of the United States Army Field Manual on Human Intelligence Collector Operations.

(b) Prohibited Actions- The treatment or techniques of interrogation prohibited under subsection (a) include, but are not limited to, the following:

(1) Forcing an individual to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner.

(2) Placing a hood or sack over the head of an individual, or using or placing duct tape over the eyes of an individual.

(3) Applying a beating, electric shock, burns, or other forms of physical pain to an individual.

(4) Subjecting an individual to the procedure known as `waterboarding'.

(5) Subjecting an individual to threats or attack from a military working dog.

(6) Inducing hypothermia or heat injury in an individual.

(7) Conducting a mock execution of an individual.

(8) Depriving an individual of necessary food, water, or medical care.

(c) Applicability- Subsection (a) shall not apply with respect to any individual in the custody or under the effective control of the United States Government pursuant to a criminal law or immigration law of the United States.

(d) Construction- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect the rights under the United States Constitution of any individual in the custody or under the effective control of the United States Government.

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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yep. Part of the reason I came out for Biden, really.
I'm glad to see a candidate willing to do more than complain about Bush circumventing the law.
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
14. As promised in this thread last evening, ahem...


And this is just the first salvo. Stay tuned for plenty more.


http://www.johnkerry.com/2007/11/7/fighting-to-stop-torture




Fighting to Stop Torture

by John Kerry


OK, enough double-talk and obfuscations from the Republicans. Let’s get it out in the open: who believes the United States should never use torture, and who does not?

No more statements like the typical Republican response, “We won’t comment on specific procedures we may or may not do.” Let’s get specific and show everyone what makes America America: We don’t torture, and waterboarding is torture.

I opposed Judge Mukasey’s nomination because of his refusal to take a stand on whether or not waterboarding is torture.

But he said that if Congress passed a law that made it clear where we stood on this reprehensible practice, he’d enforce it. So, here we go: let’s define waterboarding as torture once and for all.

I’m a cosponsor of S.1943, Sen. Kennedy’s bill that defines a wide variety of specific things as torture, including waterboarding.

It’s another reminder why I am so proud to be Ted’s colleague. But it’s also another reminder that those who suggest there’s nothing we can do to stop a run-away executive are just dead wrong — if we’ve got the courage of our convictions.

But, like everything we try to do, we’re going to have to ram it past the opposition of some Roadblock Republicans, and I’ll probably need your help.

Listen to veterans who know the importance of the Geneva Conventions prohibitions on torture to our soldiers on the battlefield. Listen to what John McCain says about torture. It’s a vital dividing line between civilization and barbarism, even in the worst of war.

A country can’t cross that line without suffering grave harm, from increased danger to its soldiers to a lessening of moral authority in the world.

There are some dividing lines of right and wrong that simply should not be crossed, and torture is one bright one. And I’m determined to do all I can to keep our country on the right side of that line.

In an Administration where Attorney Generals have seemed conveniently unsure of what constitutes torture, let’s give the next Attorney General a law that leaves no doubts in anyone’s minds.

Let’s bring all of the United States government under the Army Field Manual’s directives, and specifically define as torture a series of actions and techniques, such as waterboarding, mock executions, beating or “other forms of physical pain to an individual”, and a number of others.

The sad truth is that we need to do this when you have an Administration that has blurred the lines of torture and a Vice President who lobbied for it. It’s time to make the Administration hear the voice of the American people saying, “We believe this is wrong, and we won’t have this done in our name.”

I set up a petition on my website where you say tell Congress that you believe that torture isn’t just immoral, it should be illegal. I included a place where you could put your own thoughts on why you believe this so strongly.

We should all add our voice and say, “Not in our name!” So, http://action.johnkerry.com/endtorture">click here to add your name to the list of Americans who are saying just that: “There will be no torture in my name.”

But that’s not the end; this will be a long legislative fight, and this is not just a petition, this is the beginning of a campaign to make this happen.

So I’ll be keeping in touch with you, letting you know about more opportunities to make a difference, from calling into the offices of your Senators or Representatives to writing letters to the editors of your local paper and much more.

This is not going to be an easy fight. The Roadblock Republicans are well practiced in their methods of obstruction and fear on these issues, and they’ll be pulling out all the stops on this one, I’m sure.

(The only time they seem to want to talk about Osama bin Laden is when they’re trying to defend actions like this, so I’m sure we’ll hear lots of scaremongering throughout this fight. We’ll need your help to get this done.)

It’s time to help put our country on record: torture is against the bedrock morals of this country, and we won’t stand for the use of it in our name.


Thank you so much,

John Kerry




(Oh, and while you're at it at, check out this one too:

http://www.johnkerry.com/2007/11/6/just-say-no-legal-loopholes-on-torture ...)


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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah, I'm going to stop doing that -- saying I'll look into something. I always
get waylaid and go off on other tangents. Sorry! :blush:

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