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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:37 PM
Original message
MSNBC: Hillary's consistent non-answers
In an interview with CNN’s Candy Crowley yesterday, Clinton was once again asked whether she supports giving drivers’ licenses to illegal immigrants. And once again, she didn’t really answer the question.



CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do. And governors are on the front lines because of the failures to get comprehensive immigration reform. There are already eight states that issue driver's licenses without any verification of citizenship. That is a decision that the governors and legislatures and the people of those states have made. I understand…
CROWLEY: But you see why people think…
CLINTON: Well, but you know, Candy…
CROWLEY: … that you are not answering the question.
CLINTON: Well, but you know, Candy, well, but I think that if you go back and look at the complexity of this issue, I don’t think a lot of these hard questions lend themselves to raising your hand. And I know that that’s easier in a 30 second context to try to do.

A look at nearly everything she has said on the subject since October 16 -- which adds up to a lot more than 30 seconds -- shows that she actually has been pretty consistent in her answer: Generally, she supports what governors like New York’s Eliot Spitzer are trying to do. But she also has been pretty consistent in giving non-answers on whether she, personally, supports giving drivers’ licenses to illegal immigrants.

Below is what Clinton has said on the matter…

October 16 editorial meeting with the Nashua Telegraph
"I hate to see any state being pushed into trying to take this into their own hands because the federal government has failed. So I know exactly what Governor Spitzer is trying to do and it makes a lot of sense, because he's trying to get people out of the shadows, come forward and we'll give you this license – but without a federal policy in effect people will come forward and they could get picked up by ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) tomorrow. This can't work state by state – it has to be looked at comprehensively."

October 30 MSNBC debate
RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, Governor of New York Eliot Spitzer has proposed giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. told the Nashua, New Hampshire, Editorial Board it makes a lot of sense. Why does it make a lot of sense to give an illegal immigrant a driver's license?
CLINTON: Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. We know in New York we have several million at any one time who are in New York illegally. They are undocumented workers. They are driving on our roads. The possibility of them having an accident that harms themselves or others is just a matter of the odds. It's probability. So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum. I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well intentioned, can fill this gap. There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.


Much, much more at:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/07/453457.aspx
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Par for the course. I just wonder how the Hillary War Room is to spin it and attack John Edwards
with this?
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. What is your candidate's position on identification for undocumented drivers?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. How is that a non-answer?
She answered the question.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And, if I recall correctly the OP's candidate answered by
not raising his hand. What a stellar response.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. No. He said he's for it. Plain and simple. Maybe you missed it since
he didn't do a song and dance, and just answered the question.`
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. So does Obama support legislation requiring the states to give DL's to the undocumented?
His answer was so clear that I'm sure you can tell me his position on this?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Because repuke Crowley said it was a non-answer
and some DUers will agree with a rightwinger just so long as the wingnut confirms their prejudices
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. More right wing drivel from an Obama supporter
Crowley is a disgusting whore and Obama supporters agree with her. Even worse, the OP expects a Yes or NO answer.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Must be just me.
I appreciate it when a candidate gives a full reasoned answer that is as complex as the issue at hand.

For my money, Obama is the cult-of-personality candidate --and nothing he has done since his 2004 Keynote has made me see him any differently.


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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not just you
Thinking democrats agree with you. The unthinking (and we know what party they come from) feel differently
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Yup.
I feel exactly the same.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I agree.
And, those candidates (Obama and Edwards) that did answer a state question about identification with a one word answer will later see that answer blown into their simple response to a complex federal issue about immigration. They are now stuck in the mud.

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Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Senator Dodd gave a yes or no answer. Why couldn't Hillary???
It's clear (unlike many other things with Hillary) that she does support giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. Now, does she support Spitzer's plan or another one??? She could have easily clarified it in a couple of sentences, but she could not do it.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Simple people need simple answers
Too bad the world is complicated
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Voters understand a nonanswer when they hear one.
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 04:33 PM by AtomicKitten
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. What's her problem?
Just. Answer. The. Questions.


Sheeeeesh...
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Which part aren't you clear on?
She stated her position quite clearly.

Do you need some help, honey?
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Only those blinded by Hillary-hate can't see that she is answering the question.
She won't give a simple 'yes' or 'no' (like Bush certainly would) because the issue is too complicated for a 'yes' or 'no.' There is such a thing as nuance. Hillary understands that, if others don't.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Really? I think it's called "waffling."
Just like her waffling on SS, torture, etc.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. mmmmmmmmmmm
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I wondered where
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 04:52 PM by jenmito
that was going. :D :hi: I love waffles, too! (But not wafflers).
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PlanetBev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Mmmmmm, Kitten
nice stack you got there...
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Nuance?
To paraphrase Dylan, who was paraphrasing the good Dr. Johnson, "Nuance is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings." :)

You know, not every question is so complicated to plead "nuance" in the answer. Just come out and give us your position. Not what you understand what others are doing, but what YOU'RE position on the issue is. HRC has not stated a position at all.

What's your position on gay marriage? On the death penalty? On universal healthcare? Are these issues so complicated that you would accept half-answers and nuance? Or would you want a clear answer out of your candidate?


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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Opposes, opposes, supports
or was that too complicated for you
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DangerDave921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. OK
Then why can't she articulate a position on the issue of drivers licenses?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. It's more complicated
Do you support open heart surgery? If yes, can I operate on you now?
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Why should she - it is not a federal question?
Do you think Obama and Edwards should respond to every bit of legislation (crackpot or otherwise) working its way through Springfield and Raleigh?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. NO. NO. NO!
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 08:13 PM by calteacherguy
You can't get away with that, and neither can she! This isn't "nuance," it's trying to have it both ways without answering a question. Her refusal to answer has nothing to do with the complexity of the issue:

CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do.

She's saying she DOESN'T support it in the absence of comprhensive reform, and at the same time saying she supports it! She's trying to have it both ways!
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. In the black and white world of the netroots...
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 05:14 PM by SaveElmer
I can see that they would dislike this. In a world where every answer has a pat, and approved 2 or 3 word answer...where the solution to every problem is simple, and where anyone who does not give that answer is a pariah...yes I can see why they dislike it...

In fact however, these issues are as complicated as Hillary says they are...and I admire her for not simply giving the easy answer that the Tim Russert's of the world are looking for...promising an easy solution to a complicated issue is called pandering...something Obama and Edwards are showing an impressive talent for...

She clearly has demonstrated she knows the issue, knows what the problems are and won't be pinned down to some pat answer because she is running...

btw: What was Obama's reasoning for not showing any leadership on Kyl-Lieberman again...never have gotten a straight answer from him on that one...

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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. It seems to me if you need a complex issue boiled down to a bumper sticker -
your natural home is the Republican Party.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. If she said she supports it in the absence of comprehensive immigration reform, that would be nuance
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 08:17 PM by calteacherguy
This is simply a refusal to answer a question:

CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do.


I will NEVER go back to supporting a tapdancer like this for the nomination! We need a new kind of politics, and it's starts with giving a straight answer to a question!
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hillary's campaign has said that Bill's speech, in her defense, was
counter-productive.:eyes:
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. but Obama hates gays!
quick! Kick up all those articles
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Well, now that you have brought it up...
I don't agree with you that "Obama hates gays", Obama just panders to people who hate gays. There is a big difference.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. John Edwards's latest YouTube video is about this very exchange.
The Politics of Parsing - Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkzlxJcbx54
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. You know, I was ready to give her the benefit of the doubt, but now...
CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do.

I have assumed she meant what Crowley said...now she says no. She can't support something she doesn't agree with! It makes no sense!
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. think
She does not support any particular STATE pgm for dealing with the immigration problem. She supports comprehensive reform at the FEDERAL level.

Does she support the states taking action to deal with the immigration problem? NO!! She supports comprehensive reform at the FEDERAL level. She does not support having the states resolve the problems

What does she think about Spitzer's attempt to deal with the problem in the face of no comprehensive reform? She thinks it's a good idea.

Does that mean she supports it? NO, she supports comprehensive reform at the FEDERAL level.

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. But she says that's not what she said!
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 08:34 PM by calteacherguy
CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Huh?
There were two "she"'s. You'll have to be clearer on which "she" is which "she"

AS far as I see, there is nothing inconsistent with what she said

"CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do. "

She supports what they "are trying to do" (ie do something about the immigration problem). She does not support it as something the states should actually do.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. It's completely disingenuous.
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 08:40 PM by calteacherguy
CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?
CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do.

Does she agree with giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants absent comprehensive immigration reform or not? She refuses to take a stand. She says no, then she says she supports what the governors are trying to do. It's a refusal to take a stand. She can't have it both ways.

Your support of Clinton is blinding you to her flaws.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. She does not support it. She said that clearly
You can keep asking, but the answer will be the same

"She refuses to take a stand. She says no,"

And yet, you continue to pretend she hasn't answered the question

"then she says she supports what the governors are trying to do. It's a refusal to take a stand. "

No, it's not. You can keep saying it, and I'm sure you will, but it's still not true. She took a stand. The answer is "No"
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You're right, brother cal.
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