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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:37 PM
Original message
Senator Obama and the Culture Wars
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 03:49 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
One key element of Senator Obama’s message of Unity is that American politics is unable to cope with new problems because it is mired in long-running ideological disputes that have been fought over since the 1960s-- disputes perpetuated by a generation of politicians on both sides who cannot see past the framing of their youth.

Obama is correct in recognizing that that modern American politics is mired in fighting old battles. He is as correct as the other 50 million or so people who have made the same observation year after year for the last generation. It is not a novel insight. It is a trite and crushingly obvious cliché. It is central to what Duncan Black (Atrios) calls "high-Broderism."

Every election cycle some candidate repackages this trivial observation as part of a “transcendent" message of unity and change. And it always ropes in a few well-meaning naïfs—usually younger people who haven’t seen the same message come and go a dozen times already. (The last major proponent of this stuff was George W. Bush in 2000.)

Nobody questions that we are fighting the same old battles. The question is, “What course of action would allow us to move past those conflicts?” The unity-peddlers seldom get too specific on that point because their frame cannot withstand any practical examination.

What makes these conflicts interminable is that they cannot be resolved through compromise. If they could, we would have dispensed with them long ago. The only way to get past a substantial and interminable political conflict is for one side or the other to lose.

Throwing bags of trash in the street was a 1960s issue that was resolved because the litter-bugs did not have a passionate ideological stance in favor of littering. There was no real divide to be bridged.

Abortion continues to be a hard fought battle today because it involves serious differences and questions of fundamental rights. Senator Obama says he believes that the American people have largely “moved beyond” many of those old 1960s ideological disputes. In the case of abortion, he is somewhat correct. The American people have settled on an uneasy and utterly unprincipled compromise position that is ethically incoherent, that abortion is bad and should be limited somehow as a cultural marker that it is bad, but it shouldn’t be banned… at least not for me and my friends.

The fact that a lot of American people think like that does not, however, mean we have “moved beyond” abortion as an issue. As a constitutional lawyer, Obama should understand that the law can not accommodate that kind of cognitive dissonance. At some point vague feel-good rhetoric must find expression in law. And the abortion divide cannot be casually bridged in law because the law must say one thing or another.

And those who want to outlaw abortion are not merely taking a stance for the fun of arguing with Democrats. They actually do want to outlaw abortion, and they are not going to stop.

When rights are at issue, compromise is defeat. Whatever grand cultural compromises Obama envisions, it must involve the abrogation of serious ideals of importance to most Democrats.

And here is where Obama’s shallow concept of American politics collapses completely… he seems to genuinely not understand that the Republicans are the ones who keep these issues alive, and that the republicans are wicked and wildly irresponsible. They would destroy the country without a thought, if it rewarded them somehow. So the only way to compromise with them is to surrender.

In any compromise the Republicans hold all the cards because they don’t care one whit for the welfare of real people. They will shut down the government and impeach a president without a care. They will destroy the US military and slaughter 100s of thousands of innocents to prop up support for tax cuts. They are, in games theory terms, the “mad bomber.”

The perpetuation of divisions is not a symptom of an old polical fight between Democrats and Republicans, it is the raison d'etre of the modern Republican party.

Does Senator Obama think his personal magnetism and wisdom will somehow assuage or transcend Republican hatred? We have been offering gestures of good-will to the Republicans for decades, and in every instance they have abused that good-will. We have offered a hand of friendship a thousand times, and every time the Republicans shit in it.

The Republicans must be defeated, not accomodated. Senator Obama is proposing to be the Neville Chamberlain of the culture wars.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. "The Republicans must be defeated, not accomodated."
They need to be pounded into the ground, not hugged.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good comments but
that subject line is really, really ugly.

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Coming from you, I'll accept that (Title changed)
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 03:46 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. If Obama represented a THREAT to the GOP
they would jump all over him and unlike HRC he wouldn't arise from the puddle of blood and guts.

Its easy for him to dismiss other peoples sacrifices just like its easy for chimp to claim to honor the military while he sends them into hell and then abandons them on the streets without mental or physical health care or jobs.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. And he says you have to beat them
What you just wrote is Obama's position exactly. Most people are in agreement about abortion, but we're being led around by the extremes. You bring the people who are in agreement together, and then you beat the extremes. He is not talking about accommodating anybody on the extremes. Between him, Edwards and Clinton, he is the one with the record to prove he hasn't accommodated the right and has gotten important legislation passed in Illinois in the process.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Exactly.
That was one bizarre, long rant. Emotion seems to be carrying the day at DU. What's happened to this place?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. primaries
*sigh* It'll be better by the end of Feb.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I know the tone was this bad last time around, but was the content this lacking, too?
I'm probably wrong. I was wrong about who Americans would vote for in the last two general elections. Why shouldn't I be wrong about that?

Cheers.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. What are the extremes on abortion?
It seems to me that we've been pushed way to the right on abortion, where it is now illegal for doctors to perform a lot of procedures even when a woman's life or health is in danger. How is that "beating the extremes?" That's just accommodating the far-right.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Thank Clinton for that
Extremes would be the 100% pro-life position which he has firmly opposed to the point of just flat refusing to participate in trumped up legislation in Illinois. On the other side of that is the people I've heard call fetuses parasites, which isn't helpful either.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. What? Please explain. I read your post three times and still don't understand it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Pushed to the right on abortion
Yes. Thank Clinton for that.

Obama opposed those forces to the point of refusing to participate in legislation designed to entangle Democrats in hyperbolic attacks. He doesn't believe in accommodating the extremes, and wouldn't accommodate those who would call a fetus nothing more than a parasite on a woman either.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I'm terribly confused. What would the left-wing "extreme" on abortion look like?
When you say that Obama "doesn't believe in accommodating the extremes," what specifically does he mean by the left-wing extreme?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Calling fetuses parasites
for instance. Denigrating and ridiculing anyone who has a religious view of conception. People like that.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Oh. Do people do that? They must be insane. Seriously.
If someone thinks that a fetus is a parasite, then they definitely should not get pregnant or be in contact with anyone who is pregnant.

Now, I'm slightly puzzled by the phrase "religious view of conception." What do you mean?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Yes you're shocked
Of course you are. Never seen that kind of thing at DU, don't know religious people have a moral view of conception, just totally dumb-founded you are. :eyes:

Bye.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. ??? You didn't answer my question.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Yeah, that doesn't sound
leftwing..it sounds crazed wing.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Now where have I seen the left slandered as crazies before....
Oh yeah. Republicans do that all the time. Put up some batshit crazy insane comment and then claim that that's the leftwing view. Moonbats and all that.

Republican talking point.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Precisely, there are crazies on the left too
I love how people just go brain-dead when they don't want to deal with reality. No wonder nothing ever gets resolved in this country.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. That is total, complete, and utter bs
Partial birth abortion never, as in not ever, polled about 30% in acceptance. Yet Clinton repeatedly, as in over and over again, vetoed bills outlawing it. That is the one and only social issue he did that with. Along among social liberals pro choicers got a President who stood tall on their issue.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. She's fond of total, complete and utter bs
it's her modus operandi
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Based on constitutionality
Not the ludicrousness of the argument. He let a lot of right wing garbage grow more than it would have for the simple fact that he didn't fight it.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. The health thing was a fig leaf
any health exception would have beeen in practice a near total exception.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don;t know if Obama is Neville Chamberlain yet
But your breakdown of what can and cannot be compromised was outstanding!

"What makes these conflicts interminable is that they cannot be resolved through compromise. If they could, we would have dispensed with them long ago. The only way to get past a substantial and interminable political conflict is for one side or the other to lose.

Throwing bags of trash in the street was a 1960s issue that was resolved because the litter-bugs did not have a passionate ideological stance in favor of littering. There was no real divide to be bridged.

Abortion continues to be a hard fought battle today because it involves serious differences and questions of fundamental rights. Senator Obama says he believes that the American people have largely “moved beyond” many of those old 1960s ideological disputes. In the case of abortion, he is somewhat correct. The American people have settled on an uneasy and utterly unprincipled compromise position that is ethically incoherent, that abortion is bad and should be limited somehow as a cultural marker that it is bad, but it shouldn’t be banned… at least not for me and my friends.

The fact that a lot of American people think like that does not, however, mean we have “moved beyond” abortion as an issue. As a constitutional lawyer, Obama should understand that the law can not accommodate that kind of cognitive dissonance. At some point vague feel-good rhetoric must find expression in law. And the abortion divide cannot be casually bridged in law because the law must say one thing or another."

Seriously. Great job.

:applause:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The abortion compromises in the 90's
were made possible by the master trinagulator. So why would this possibly be an issue to you.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. which compromises?
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Um, yeah
Dunno what she is on about.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. partial birth, waiting periods, funding
all kinds of things that Democrats didn't fight effectively on which allowed the right to gain ground.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Huh?
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 04:55 PM by incapsulated
Clinton did fight for those rights. I don't know what you are talking about.

He vetoed the "partial birth abortion" ban.

1993
In January of this year, President Clinton issues five executive orders regarding abortion issues. They include: 1) reversing Title 10 regulations banning abortion referral by federal employees; 2) repealing the Mexico City Policy; 3) lifting the ban on funding for fetal tissue transplants; 4) instructing military hospitals to perform abortions; and 5) asking the FDA to review the import ban on RU 486. The following month, abortionist Abu Hayat is convicted of assault and illegal abortion for his attempt to kill via abortion Ana Rosa Rodriguez, the baby born in 1991 with a severed arm. In June, the U.S. House renews the Hyde Amendment. An NRLC-led lobbying campaign defeats the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act," a proposed federal statute to invalidate even the narrow types of state abortion regulations permitted by the Supreme Court. In December, the Clinton Administration orders states to change their laws and provide payments for abortions in cases of rape or incest.

1996
In April, President Clinton vetoes the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. In July, an FDA committee recommends that the FDA approve marketing RU 486 for women up to 49 days pregnant. In September, the FDA declares RU 486 approvable, but asks for more information before the drug can be marketed. In November, Bill Clinton and Al Gore defeat the pro-life Republican ticket of Bob Dole and Jack Kemp.

1997
In March, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act is passed in the House in March and in May, it is passed in the U.S. Senate with just three votes shy of the number required to override President Clinton's veto, issued, as expected, the following October.


http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:1whqeyqEV24J:www.raptureready.com/time/rap31k.html+abortion+clinton+administration+waiting+period&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. With a bunch of mealy-mouthed
mumbo jumbo about the health of the mother and nothing about the bullshit garbage being spewed by the right. Any time they were seriously challeged, they folded.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. what?
He vetoed it, I don't know what you are bitching about. And it wasn't easy fighting that, either.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Not because it was complete nonsense
But because it didn't meet constitutional requirements in protecting the life and health of the mother. They never really fought the idiotic notion that women were sauntering into clinics and getting abortions at 8 & 9 months. If it had been written correctly, he'd have signed it. We went way backwards on rights in the 90's because he gave too much to the right.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Your're country
pushed back against progressive values and elected a fucked up congress in 94.

Oh yeah, that was Bills fault too. :eyes:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. What's that got to do with Bill?
And the way he chose to let the right convince people there was a problem with late term abortions instead of standing against that nonsense outright. They consistently let the right frame the debate all through the 90's, DU has been complaining about that since the day I got here, and now all of a sudden, everybody is just dumb-founded as to what I'm talking about.

It's really stunning.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Nothing at all
:eyes:

Don't attempt to analyze politics in an honest way, you might hurt yourself.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. you must have been dreaming
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, I don't really believe any campaign rhetoric but...
I just think this is a stupid strategy.

There aren't enough "youth votes" to carry a single district, so why insult the very people who you can count on to show up on election day?

And since when does dismissing the political activism of the civil rights era win you votes with democrats?

And telling black folks that this war was won a long time ago, lets move on already, is going to get them to switch their votes to him from Hillary??

I dunno, this whole "strategy" seems lamebrained.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. Political grandstanding + My Way Or The Highway = Getting Nothing Done
I'll take the advice and opinions of people like Obama, Feingold and even Kennedy that are willing to work with people across the aisle on issues that both can agree on.

It's not a binary Us vs Them world. That's really just a Pink Floyd song.


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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That is the reality of living in a democracy, all right.
Unfortunately, it's something that is difficult for us humans to master.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you, K_and_H
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 04:44 PM by goodgd_yall
You expressed ideas that I don't have the talent to express as articulately and clearly.
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Scriptor Ignotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. republicans are wicked
really? all of them?
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Yeah. I think so. At this point, I can't think of a single reason to be a Republican
or support a Republican except for wickedness.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. Read their platform
and get back to me.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
27. Exactly...
... and well said. Obama is way off base, I once considered him my favorite, now he is among my least.

The "appeasement" tack has not worked and it is not going to work. Americans are ready to see a Dem party that FIGHTS for what it believes in like the Repukes do.

They're waiting....
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Yes. I hear all this about "transformative change" and I see pandering to the right.
A couple weeks ago some Obama supporters kept telling me that Obama was seeking "transformative change" by "entering into dialogue" with those who consider homosexuality to be an abomination, a threat to children, equivalent to murder, and being abandoned by God.

When the time for this big onstage group hug came, it turned out to be a lone white gay preacher saying a few prayers to an empty auditorium, followed by hours of raucous foot-pounding support for Donnie McClurkin and a bunch of other gospel singers who have made careers out of making life a misery for gay people everywhere. McClurkin was introduced by Obama on video as "his favorite singer," and given at least a half-hour to expound on his totally bigoted views on gay people.

Now, how is that transformative? It transformed me into a non-Obama supporter, I will say that.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. What Obama is pointing out is that it is not a novel idea but, that
aside from identifying it, what else are we going to do about it. Many people, as you point out Hunter, have observed that baby boomers cannot get past the 60s and use it to the detriment of our country for personal agendas.
But, no one has presented us with a way to get out of the maze and move forward.
that is what is Obama's question and answer for us.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. Hillary Clinton is locked in the past in very conventional ways of thinking.
We need transformative change.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I agree with both those statements. Now, how does Obama promise this change?
'cause I gotta tell you, I had high hopes for Obama, but he's severely disappointed me lately.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. .
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. That thread is all about Hillary's flaws. I know that already. What about Obama?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. If you think it's all about Hllary's flaws you haven't read it. nt
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. Bush ran on the exact same notion that Obama's pushing
"Ahm a uniter not a divider"

It was idiocy when Bush said it and it's idiocy now.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
53. UPDATE: Tom Hayden says it so much better than I can. Please read.
This David Zephyr post contains the complete text of famed activist Tom Hayden's open letter to Barrack Obama on precisely these issues, and he really gets the point across. Trying to walk a middle path between political extremes is dead wrong when one extreme is much closer to right than the other. When the Republicans are flat WRONG then the "unity" path is, at best, wrong-lite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2248793
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
54. If this essay was not connected to a candidate, but just on principle
I would bet it would be overwhelmingly popular.
Constant seeking of the center and making "peace" with the extreme right is how we got the "center" we have now.

What were formerly "John Birchers" are now mainstream GOP thinkers.
Nixon would be an environmental extremist (EPA) and the one who "lost" Red China.

The entire table has moved so far to the right it is amazing.
And they did it by moving right or staying where they were while insisting OUR side "move to the middle"

But I guess I am an old fogie who has seen too much. Fool me once, twice, 12 times and all that.
Like RFK Jr saying see you at the barricades, I am just not with the new hug and the right won't stab us in the back mentality...


Excellent post K&H
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Yes.
The entire table has moved so far to the right it is amazing.
And they did it by moving right or staying where they were while insisting OUR side "move to the middle."

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