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Obama's greatest strengths: Imagination, Vision, and a real-world knowledge.

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:27 PM
Original message
Obama's greatest strengths: Imagination, Vision, and a real-world knowledge.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:26 PM by calteacherguy
Obama has often been criticized by those in the Clinton camp for being "naive" on foreign policy. I think they are confusing imagination and vision for naivety. And what they call Clinton's "experience" is nothing more than a failure of imagination on her part based in a blind adherence to conventional thinking. Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Are we to be naive enough to believe that insight only applies to science? And what knowledge and "experience" are of the most worth in a Presidential candidate?

“I think,” he said, in that deep and measured voice of his, “that if you can tell people, ‘We have a president in the White House who still has a grandmother living in a hut on the shores of Lake Victoria and has a sister who’s half-Indonesian, married to a Chinese-Canadian,’ then they’re going to think that he may have a better sense of what’s going on in our lives and in our country. And they’d be right.” http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04obama-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin


Perhaps it was this international heritage that led Obama to the correct position on Cuba. While Clinton continues to support a failed Bush administration policy, Obama has greater vision unhampered by the conventional political dogma which Clinton supporters mistake for "knowledge and experience."

"A democratic opening in Cuba is, and should be, the foremost objective of our policy," Obama wrote in the Herald. But while making that standard declaration, he also argued that "Cuban-American connections to family in Cuba are not only a basic right in humanitarian terms, but also our best tool for helping to foster the beginnings of grassroots democracy on the island." As a result, he said, "I will grant Cuban-Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island."http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1655373,00.html


Vision vs. Conventional thinking. That's the choice before us. It's what some Clinton supporters (and indeed, Clinton herself) try cleverly and incorrectly to frame as "experience" vs. "naivete." In the case of Cuba, the the "vision thing" is winning...

In response to Obama's statement, Hillary Clinton continued her recent attacks on his perceived foreign policy naivete, insisting that "until it is clear what type of policies might come with a new government, we cannot talk about changes in the U.S. policies toward Cuba." But by playing that safe card in Florida, Clinton may have allowed herself to be "outmaneuvered by Obama on this one," says one Cuban-American leader who asked not to be identified, pointing to a recent Florida International University poll showing that more than 55% of Cuban-Americans in Miami favor unrestricted travel to Cuba.

That survey, say academics like Rafael Lima, a University of Miami communications professor and the son of an exile once imprisoned by Castro, reflects the growing number of younger, more moderate Cuban-American voters in South Florida — and the waning clout of the older, more conservative generation. Unlike their elders, the younger generation believes that the 45-year-old economic embargo against Cuba has utterly failed to dislodge its communist leader. As a result, Obama could now galvanize those moderates, who Lima says "have been waiting for a viable presidential candidate to wave their banner for once."http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1655373,00.html


President Carter’s National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brezinski understands the choice before us is not just about Cuba, but the need at this transformative time in human history, at the dawn of the new millennium, for a transformative change in American foreign policy which has the imagination and wisdom to see beyond conventional thinking.

““The choice that you will be making will define America’s role in a historically new era. We have elections every four years, but only once in a while is a new president facing the opportunity to shape a new sense of direction for America,” explained Brezinski.

The national security adviser under President Jimmy Carter continued, “There is a need for a fundamental rethinking of how we conduct world affairs, and Obama seems to me to have both the guts and the intelligence to address that issue and to change the nature of America’s relationship with the world.'’http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/09/12/foreign-policy-expert-stumps-for-obama/


Einstein was right. Imagination is more important than knowledge (and no I'm not conceding Obama doesn't have "knowledge"). But what kind of knowledge and imagination do we want the next President to have?

Brzezinski called Mrs. Clinton’s foreign policy “very conventional.”

“I don’t think the country needs to go back to what we had eight years ago,” Mr. Brzezinski said.

He also weighed in on the dispute over Mr. Obama’s statement that he would meet unconditionally with Venezuelan, Iranian and Syrian leaders, which Mrs. Clinton called “naïve.”

“What’s the hang-up about negotiating with the Syrians or with the Iranians?'’ Brzezinksi said. “What it in effect means'’ is “that you only talk to people who agree with you.'’

Howard Wolfson, the Clinton campaign’s communication director, had no comment. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/brzezinski-offers-support-for-obama/


Any comments?

(edited to tidy up all those block quotes)





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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's obvious we need a change in policy on Cuba.
The current policy hasn't worked for 50 years. It's folly to think that it's suddenly going to start working now. We need constructive engagement.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Nah, we just need to remove restrictions. Poof.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Big Lie
If Obama's naive, but Clinton voted for war, then what does that make Clinton? Naive plus?

How silly.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It is silly. And I think people are beginning to see the Empress has no clothes. nt
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is there even a discussion going on here? n/t
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, let's discuss! nt
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You want to discuss why you said my OP was racist in another thread?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You made stereotypical comments about the constituency Obama was addressing.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:16 PM by calteacherguy
I'm not saying you yourself are racist, but the tenor of your post left me with a very uncomfortable feeling.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. A non-responsive response
"You made stereotypical comments about the constituency Obama was addressing."

D'uh!! I didn't think you made that post because of what I was wearing. Of course it was something I posted. Do you think you'll ever get around to telling me which comments of mine were "stereotypical", or are you going to keep that a secret? My guess is either the latter or we'll go back and forth for a bunch of posts before you feel forced to put up or shut up, just as you avoided being specific in your non-responsive response

And I understand the difference between being called a racist and having something I said called racist. That's why I never claimed you called me a racist. I'm jus asking you to be specific instead of making a weasely accusation without backing it up
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Good luck with that.
Remember, he's the one that likes BIGOTS! Donnie ring a bell?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "He's the one who likes the Bigots."
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:33 PM by calteacherguy
Nice try at character assasination.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I call it like I see it.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Clearly, you need new glasses. nt
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Clearly you need to atone for making excuses for the BIGOT.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You don't want to have a discussion. Forget it. nt
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Not with someone who props up a BIGOT! Your correct.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Your sounding like the church lady now.
Atone for...whatever!

Take a chill pill, man. People may actually have attitudes different than yours. Deal.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I'm not the one who's went after the fundie vote.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Would you prefer a strong supporter of gay rights does not have the fundie vote? nt
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 10:11 PM by calteacherguy
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Strong?
:rofl:
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Strong supporter of gay rights, yes. nt
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Calguy, who are YOU kidding?
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 11:05 PM by Lirwin2
"McClurkins been taken out of context!"
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. .
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:31 PM by calteacherguy
"The people who went to see that gospel tour were black. They vote dem in numbers greater than 90%. I doubt if the dem party picked up one vote from the homophobic tour.

It had nothing to do with expanding the big tent. It was about getting blacks to vote for Obama and not some other dem"



Were they all Black?

Also, your post implies it's O.K. to take the Black vote for granted because they are Black.

You call the tour "homophobic," which implies every Black person there (since you say they were all Black) were homophobic
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. My post implies and make no mistake about it.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:33 PM by William769
A BIGOT is a BIGOT is a BIGOT. And anyone who tries to offer excuses is doing nothing but to help but prop up a BIGOT is a supporter of a BIGOT!

Can I make it any clearer?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I have offered no excuses for bigotry, ever. nt
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Trust me I have read your excuses about Obama and the BIGOT.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:35 PM by William769
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Don't try changing the subject by bringing Obama into it.
You began by saying I was a bigot and supported a bigot. You have offered no evidence for that false accusation.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Why not? He's the one that sponsered the BIGOT!
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. No, you have it backwards.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:47 PM by calteacherguy
The bigot endorsed a non-homophobic supporter of gay rights, and Obama condemned his views.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Wrong again.
It was Obama's embrace the tour. And we know that they were embracing BIGOTS!
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. The Bigots embraced Obama, the supporter of gay rights. nt
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. And it was also a fundraiser for Obama.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:51 PM by William769
Obama lost all credibiity with most of the GLBT community.

ON EDIT: and he embraced them for it.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Indeed, the bigots donated money to a strong non-homophobic supporter of gay rights.
Amazing, isn't it?
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. They should have, he sponsered it!
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 10:04 PM by William769
Your right it is amazing!

On EDIT: and to stop your spin take a look at this.

"Senator Barack Obama is committed to brining people of all faiths together to put their faith into action to change this country for the better. With the help of many talented, spirit-filled supporters, Barack Obama's campaign is hosting Gospel concerts throughout Palmetto State on October 26, 27, and 28 to bring South Carolinians together for a few evenings of song and praise.

Tickets are just $10 and support Barack's historic, grassroots campaign for the Presidency."


http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/scembrace

Please take not, thats from Obama's website.

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Is it not a good thing that the bigots donate money to an advocate of gay rights? nt
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Even when not only he hosts it, but sponsers it?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Please answer the question for yourself....
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I have answered the question.
As I stated before Obama has lost all credibility with most in the GLBT community. A BIGOTS money is a BIGOTS money. I want no part of it.

Go ahead and embrace the BIGOTS, I won't. Go ahead and Ebrace Obama, the enabler of BIGOTS, I won't. I have always stated that I would vote for any Dem who gets the primary nod, but after this fiasco, thats changed. I would rather see a Repuke get the office over Obama. It's easier to know your enemy than to think someone is your friend while he turns the knife in your back.

Good night and Good luck sleeping with the BIGOTS!
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. You can't conquor bigotry by ignoring it. You have to confront it.
I know you can't see that now, but it's the truth. Good night.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Does that apply to you and your desperate excuses for Hillary's fraternizing with known bigots?
:shrug:
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Which one did Clinton host a Tour for?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. More excuses and deflections.
Apparantly, in your world, candidates can hang with "bigots"...as long as they don't go on tour.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Can't answer the question?
You brought it up.
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Almost all, yes
And I said nothing about taking the votes for granted. I posted a well documented FACT that blacks, including those in SC, vote more than 90% dem.

And I don't see how calling the tour "homophobic" has anything to do with calling the audience homophobic, though admittedly in other posts, I do say that I have seen a lot of homophobia in the black religious community, but that is also a well-documented fact that my experiences seem to confirm, and two other posters, at least one of whom is black, agrees with me. You want to call her comments racist?

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. All fundamentalist religious communities have lots of homophobes.
Why single out Blacks?
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Because the gospel tour was meant to appeal to blacks
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:44 PM by cuke
Are you going to call Obama a racist?

The singers Obama picked were all popular in the black community in SC, but not the white fundies. They listen to a bunch of different gospel singers and groups. And in NY, black christians from the West Indies listen to a whole other group of gospel singers, many of whom perform a raggae version of gospel music. If you like, I can ask my friends to recommend some black gospel music for you.

on edit: I just remembered that there are also African-inspired versions of gospel music for blacks who have emigrated from African nations. This music incorporates African style rhythms and instrumentation.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No thanks, I'm not religious. nt
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You don't have to be religious to call Obama a racist
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:47 PM by cuke
Why did Obama choose black gospel singers? Is he racist?

on edit: and you don't have to be religious to like gospel music. I'm not a Christian, and I love some of it. You probably would too if you gave it a chance but I'm afraid your prejudices concerning religiously themed music will prevent you from ever learning this for yourself
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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. And did Obama "single out" Christians?
I doubt a Gospel tour was meant to appeal to Jews. Is Obama a religious anti-Semite?
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. but does she have a plan?
kerry said he had a plan. all you need is a plan. right? RIGHT?!?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. She lacks integrity and core values.
The new generation of Cuban-Americans think our Cuba policy sucks big time and that it is time to normalize relations between the two countries.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. She certainly has less than Obama, in my view. nt
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Oh please... "“I think,” he said, in that deep and measured voice of his,"
Why don't just fuckin marry him...
:eyes:
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
29.  Ask the NY Times writer, if you feel that way.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 09:42 PM by calteacherguy
My intent was not to discuss his voice.
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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. Bush has imagination and vision but no prior experience. Want more of same?
but what you are doing is setting up a choice between
Obama and Mrs. Clinton as if those are the only two choices.

They are not. 

Additionally from his latest exclamations, your candidate is
not an includer of all segments of the society, but an
excluder and divider.

All I have to say about your candidate is " Obama we are
getting to know you, and some of us dont like what we see and
hear."
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. You provide no evidence for you accusation.
Additionally from his latest exclamations, your candidate is
not an includer of all segments of the society, but an
excluder and divider.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. Great post, cal!
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