The one thing that may well cost Dems the White House in 08...

Regardless of who our Nominee is, is support of amnesty for undocumented immigrants. If there one thing this who drivers license shitstorm should remind us of, its that the majority of Americans do not share the views of our candidates on this issue. And unless the entire country has a change of heart between now and then, you can bet the R nominee will relentlessly point out the disconnect to their advantage.

Especially if, for example, Ghouliani gets the nod. He will need to sharply contrast with the Dem... and what better issue than this? It could be the new "one" issue for the all too many one-issue-voters.

Can we possibly win if R's make this pet issue number one? Im not convinced. Is there anything that keeps this from hurting us in the GE?

But Hillary being the nominee, notwithstanding, is MUCH MUCH WORSE.

That Dems better wake up about this. And I know from the Dems I speak to that it's a big issue out here in the real world.

But if they change position on it now... they'll be raked over the coals for that too. But when even the majority of Dems are against it (amnesty) isnt that what they should do?

Which Dems are for your so-called amnesty and which ones are against it.

So he can withstand a fight on this issue. The way to win the issue is to advocate for closing the borders and stopping an increase to the number of illegal aliens. This position will resonate well with Dems, Repubs, and independents. Deal with the ones that are here after.

Wonder why NH is so different??

Nashua, Manchester, Seacoast. I think here, some people equate minorities with immigrants. And here, some people equate minorities with crime. NH is not as progressive as any of our neighbors. No, I dont have any links to substantiate my claim. Im just speaking on my experience having spent my life here and having lived in various areas of the state.

My folks are convinced that there are millions of Mexicans invading the US. I don't get it. We were out to dinner last time they brought it up and I wanted to point out that every single person in the restaurant was lily white, just like pretty much every single person they know. I don't know where this fear comes from but it's absolutely a hot button issue for some folks even in the wilds of rural NH.

Hell... I've even met some people who are paranoid about invasion of people from Mass!

70%+ oppose the drivers license program in NY. Hillary and Obama support that. I think that makes them unelectable in a general election.

and then if they insist on "illegals" we force their hand with the fact that businesses breaking the law is one major factor to the situation and they won't touch that.

punishing those businesses? I dont know, but I doubt it. That'll be the R's response and you can bet they'll shove it in our face.

has been mentioned by at least some of the Dem candidates. I think that probably would be the best bet, to concentrate on businesses' culpability. Would Republicans really want to pursue fines and restrictions on businesses? It might make the immigration issue not so much of a winning issue for Republicans if the focus is put there.

Dems should seize the issue before Republicans do ~ it's all about corporate welfare and the best way to curb immigration is to fine companies who are hiring, and also to get rid of the incentives like free education and healthcare that Dems are so keen on providing. Both sides perpetuate the problem for different reasons ~ but it's always American citizens who pick up the bill.

Lots of people are very angry about it.

They will vote overwhelmingly Democratic when Rudy starts sounding like a xenophobic asshole.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Do you? You dont care what I think. Nice. Point taken, mental note made. But "Shut the fuck up about it"? Yeah. Youre right. What the hell was I thinking. Trying to discuss politics on a frigging political forum. We'll be MUCH better off if we all shove our heads up our asses and ignore potential problems. And in the meantime theres always the pissing matches over semantics. :wtf: And by the way.. "amnesty" is the word that we are going to have to deal with. But you were too busy ripping my head of to get that point. Oh well.

You don't help your opposition make their political points. Every time you use the word amnesty, that's what you do. Just like when we use "partial birth" or "sexual choice", it's using their language which concedes huge chunks of the argument right out of the gate. We've got to stop it and I don't care how rude you think it is to be told.

But you already know that since I specifically mentioned the rude parts of your comment in my last post. Your point would have been better made (and taken) without the venom. And for what its worth I agree with you fundamentally. However we're going to have to address the A-word. Whether we like it or not. That is the reason I used it. Like I said.

Try not to let crass posts or ignorant posters bother you.

And thanks for the welcome!
:hi:

Don't let the crudity of some sully the entire forum for you. :hi:

Not to worry... Im thick-skinned and big-mouthed. Hopefully Ill fit right in. :hi:

:-)

Is there a majority of Americans out there just chomping at the bit to make their state Departments of Motor Vehicles an adjunct of the INS? And if DMV is going to become a deputy arm of the INS, checking everyone's citizenship, why not other governmental agencies? Police, building inspectors, school lunch servers?

Shoot, why stop with governmental agencies? We're locked in an existential battle for our very survival as a country! Let's deputize supermarket check-out clerks: "Can of beans? Papers, please!" Or parking lot attendants: "I'd like to see your drivers license, proof of insurance, and oh yeah, your social security card or passport, before I can let you park your care here. It could be filled with explosives, you know."

This is kind of a radical idea, I know, but how about we let the INS worry about people's immigrant or citizenship status, and let the DMV test and license drivers? Damn, but this country is so wet-its-pants scared of every little thing anymore, it's hard to believe that we used to style ourselves as the home of the brave.

It seems clear it's the Republicans who have stirred up this pot. Some people get very passionate about it and it does make a difference to them what the next president is going to do. Whether that adds up to a lot of votes, I'm not sure.

I think the "passionate" segment of the electorate is that way mostly because of dumb questions at debates like the one Pumpkinhead posed to Sen. Clinton. It's hardly under the purview of either the Senate or the President to say diddly squat about what state agencies do, so the question itself was just a hunk of red meat tossed to a very vocal minority that won't be satisfied with any answer short of shooting all aliens, legal or illegal, suspected or confirmed, on sight.

Crime? It doesn't affect have any measureable effect on the crime rate. Jobs? Maybe another smidgen, but the most profound effect we're having on jobs and pay comes from the robber baron policies of our corporate overlords and their toadying lickspittles holding elective office. Just general xenophobia, ramped up heavily by a corrupt administration that would rather lock down our citizens through fear, intimidation and divisiveness than allow any discussion of what's really going on.

I just hate that this pseudo-issue keeps getting dragged out again and again as if it means something. And usually couched in terms of what a heueueueuge loser of an issue it is for Democrats. The reason Democrats aren't "fighting" on this issue is because all of the conventional wisdom on it and the options that flow from that wisdom are stupid.

If the xenophonbes had not found a voice in power(government and candidates for office), they would just put up with their perceived "invasion" of---and let's be honest about it---immigrants from latin countries (do they really care about Russian and Eastern European immigrants?) But illegal immigration becoming a political issue has now emboldened the disgruntled xenos.

and tried to play the illegal immigrant card (with a number of other bushit tricks). He got his butt kicked. Of course, Durham is a good Dem town.

What protects the undocumented alien, protects us all.

They just have to learn to turn the stuff around and throw it back at them, the way Rove did.
There's a way to do it without being a sociopathic pig like he is, too.

Many people who are not strong Dems are obsessed with immigration. Here in Iowa, we do have many immigrants, including many Latinos, and being a purple state, Rethug politicians have convinced many that immigrants are to blame for their problems and that not having a visa negates any and all good immigrants might be doing for their communities.

All the Democrats running would do well to have a good answer for this. The way I would frame it, is that many (most or all) illegal immigrants are coming here because they truly feel their choice is to break the law or let their family starve. Who would let their family starve so they wouldn't break a law, cross an artificial line? The party of family values?

I think a good approach would have three prongs:

- penalties against employers severe enough to hurt companies that hire illegals, strictly enforced

- work with Mexico (and other countries as necessary) so that no one has to emigrate to survive. NAFTA was supposed to create a Mexican middle class would would buy enough US goods to make up for lost jobs here. Instead, corporations got richer, many Mexicans could not earn a living, and US workers got screwed out of jobs.

-enforce the laws on the books, not waste money on stupid walls or other BS "protections" - building better mousetraps only results in smarter mice.

Like you said, it is screwing Americans out of jobs. We can say "And what have the Republicans done about putting pressure on Mexico?" We have to talk tough on that.

We'll lose if we are seen as defenders of undocumented aliens over our own people. We can effectively deflect that by turning the issue on its head for the Repugs...

Exceptional post! :toast:

The unchecked invasion of people has hurt American citizens and communities all over this country ~ and the Dems have not been on the right side of the issue. Offering ANY kind of drivers license implies that it's okay to break into our country.

And, before anyone begins the typical Democratic hype about this, I ask this simple question: If someone were to break into your home today, would you invite them to stay, let the rest of their family members move in too, and then offer them all free education and healthcare??

No, because it would hurt the family that already lives in your house.

When someone breaks into my house, they damage my property and steal my possession. Nothing breaks amd nothing is stolen when someone crosses a border

Maybe you've never lived in a border area ~ hospitals are closing, the education system is stressed to the max, conditions are crowded, etc. ~ Good health care is being stolen, a good education is being stolen, quality of life due to crowding is being stolen. The list goes on and on ~ and it's not only that citizens are being robbed of these things; they are also being asked to pay more taxes as cities try to deal.

When someone breaks into your home, your rights are infringed upon ~ exactly the same thing that is happening to citizens all over this country.

Dems have to get over the notion that people are somehow being unkind if they want to protect their own country and leave something worth having for their own children. If you want to help millions of other people, you help them in THEIR countries.

Another dishonest post that assumes you know more about this. Keep insisting that crossing the border is theft.

You need to get over the notion that you are some sort of expert. If you were, you'd be able to use facts as arguments instead of right wing analogies. Now tell me how the repukes can't tell you what to say while you repeat their arguments

It's rude and ignorant to suggest that someone is lying because they disagree with you ~ and only makes it obvious that you have no real life experience with the issue.

If you're interested in learning I'll tell you about some situations citizens actually cope with because of this invasion of people ~ or you can keep acting as a Republican tool. They count on kneejerk reactions like yours to perpetuate their corporate welfare.

(btw, in your haste and nastiness, you didn't have one intelligent thing to say about the situations I've already mentioned.)

I've never lived in a community with undocumented residents. And I spent 12 years working for a law firm that helped them, so I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do.

And if YOU are interested in learning I'll tell YOU a few things about what happens when we listen to the ignorant right wing policies you believe in.

For example, we once represented a woman who was being deported. She had AIDS. So did her two young children who were citizens because they were born here. This woman was faced with deciding whether to leave her children behind as orphans, or bring them with her where they were certain to die from lack of medical care along with her.

She was deported. She died from a lack of medical care.

I've got dozens of stories like this. Want to hear what you're advocating for? How many people have to die to make you comfortable?

That's about as kneejerk as anyone can get, when all I had said was that the issue could cost us the election, and tried to explain why I thought so. Instead of saying that you didn't think it would have such an impact, you called me dishonest. And you made similar ridiculous remarks to others.

Nothing you have said makes a case for allowing people to enter this country illegally ~ we have a process for people to enter this country legally, and over 2 million do each year.

I don't believe that children born in this country to illegal immigrants should be U.S. citizens ~ that's exactly the kind of incentive that encourages more to come. I also don't believe that we should educate their children or pay for healthcare ~ those are also incentives, and ones we pay dearly for.

Our government steals from the American people to cover the costs of its corporate welfare program ~ some states have sued over this already. Dems are conned into enabling them because we care about people, but we should stop enabling them and insist that employers be fined. If you don't make children of illegal immigrants citizens, you don't educate them or pay for healthcare AND employers are fined, the problem will in large part take care of itself.

I believe in helping people in their own countries, whether that's Canada, Africa, England, Mexico or anywhere else ~ not trashing our own country in order to help them.

Yes, I'm a proud bleeding heart liberal but these days my heart bleeds most for our own children ~ they are going to inherit this mess instead of the country we inherited.

It's about your arguments which ARE intellectually dishonest. That explains why you've gone from "but they're illegal" to the environment to diseases to taxes. You've hit almost all of the republican talking points

Anything the repukes want is, at best, a waste of time

And yet you soldier on

"I don't believe that children born in this country to illegal immigrants should be U.S. citizen"

And you call yourself a liberal?

implies that it's okay to break into our country." It sends the wrong message. We should not encourage more illegal immigration.

If somebody runs a stop sign but can hang on to their drivers license, doesn't that imply it's okay to break laws? Doesn't that send the wrong message?

The main difference here is that when somebody violates traffic laws as opposed to immigration laws, they endanger the lives of others.

break traffic laws, unless you are speaking of repeat offenders. Perhaps we should do this for some repeat offenders who so they are incapable of obeying the rules of the road. Is that the best argument you have in favor of allowing illegal aliens to get licenses? Do you see how this will encourage more illegal immigration? Do think this issue is a problem for us Dems?

Right?

They'll complain about it being "illegal" as if their only concern is that it's against the law. Ask them to change the law, and a new bunch of bullshit pops up

No snark. Im asking.

I'm for it. As long as every employer pays every employee at least minimum wage, etc..
But... do you really think the majority will go along with that?

First, if we don't make a full effort, we will never know whether a majority would go for it or not. And secondly, this whole issue is what is plaguing our party. If its the right thing to do, then we need party leaders who will go out and make the case forcefully. That's how you get a majority to support it.

It's hypocritical to call for legalizing all immigration while calling for deportation at the same time. What's your decision?

just curious.

You'd know that I'm for ZERO population growth ~ we've had this discussion before.

(Your kneejerk reactions have really made you act like a jerk here.)

Increased standards of living result in lower birth rates.

Even that is more than we should be allowing if we care about natural resources. Did you know that the population of Atlanta is now using so much water that used to flow down the Apalachicola River that the Apalachicola estuary in Florida (one of the most varied and important in the world) is threatened??

My personal views on immigration are very much connected with what's happening with resources and the environment, but I have also seen first hand how citizens pick up the bill for this corporate welfare policy.

I think the best way to stop the flow of illegal immigrants is to fine employers and remove incentives such as education and healthcare. And in order to move toward zero population growth, U.S. families should pay tax penalties for having more than two children, instead of getting tax breaks for each child. I also believe in taxing people according to the resources they use, which would encourage the use of green technology.

And this is the argument against open borders. While in a perfect world, Id support it (though the genpop never would) the reality of it is that we *could* put our own welfare at risk. Yeah. We want to care for everybody, but to what end? It isnt wrong for Americans to want care for themselves.

I'm as much of a bleeding heart liberal as anyone here ~ but my heart also bleeds for our own children who are going to inherit this mess, for the animals who are losing their habitats, and for Mother Earth herself. It's important to help people from other countries, but imo we should be exporting help rather than importing people.

And I'll tell you. It ~really~ pisses me off when Mexico criticizes our immigration policies. But then again.... bills like NAFTA put a lot of the blame for Mexico's situation on our shoulders. But I think the right thing to do is help Mexico prosper. Im beginning to thing It'd be easier just to make it part of the US.

We legal Americans waste far more resources than we need to waste. If we conserved like other countries do, then we could let in as many people as we'd like.

If you are concerned about resources, you might want to support a presidential candidate who sees that. It ain't about immigrants. And it surely isn't about their legal status.

This is the SUV capital of the world.

The federal gov't is failing to protect the borders and stealing from communities and individuals to cover the bills incrued due to its negligence regarding illegal immigration (and its complicity with corporate America).

And there's also the issue of population numbers. I'm not just saying we need to cut back on immigration ~ I gave specific ideas on how to cut back on population growth of American citizens. Many areas are struggling with serious water shortages (as I mentioned in the case of Atlanta), among other environmental problems having to do with too many people fighting for the same resources. People in those areas are very upset about constantly growing numbers, and rightly so.

Yes, it's the SUV capital of the world ~ for the very same reason that we have an immigration problem: corporate special interests. Dems only act as Republican tools by continuing to allow it.

Almost everyone in the USA is a descendant of immigrants. And when most of them came, it was legal.

The problems you point to are real ones. But there are other ways to solve them than to turn away the next generation of new Americans. I' for one, am glad to see that people still want to come here.

They don't want the immigrants. The whole "they broke the law" argument was just a cover for their hostitlity to immigration.

Nearly every single problem associated with undocumented aliens is due to the fact that they are undocumented aliens. Do away with the laws, and they will no longer have to hide underground.

That means, employers can't cheat them anymore. If they do, they will go to jail

That means, employers will have to pay them legal wages, contribute to SS, Unemployment, disability, etc

Once the undocumented are given the ability to seek legal recourse against employers 90% of the problems go away

Millions come each year and way our ancestors did ~ respecting our laws from the very beginning.

Then employers will have to pay them a legal wage like every other worker. Then, corporate america will have no reason (or ability) to import cheap labor

Millions of people just plain showed up here, and were welcomed in. You call that "respecting our laws." The immigrants of today are doing the exact same thing, but now its illegal. And that has caused all kinds of problems, as cuke says.

Immigrants used to have a sponsor when they arrived, and a place to live. They didn't just show up until recently. You can research your ancestors, even getting copies of the ship records and the paperwork saying who the sponsor was and where your ancestor was to live. I've done it ~ fascinating to read.

Those who go through the proper channels show that they respect the laws of the land and the people.

How many Mexicans have walked in over the past 150+ years? Canadians? People from all over the world have come here. No big deal.

Now Ellis Island is closed. So, apparently, are the hearts of most Americans.

Many came without a sponsor. My grandmother was one

The fact is, Americans are pretty split about what to do, and top Republicans don't necessarily have a very different stance than Democrats.

are pretty moderate, overall. I can believe that people fear Muslim terrorists, but I doubt people really fear the guy who puts the roof on their houses or the lady who cleans their Motel-Six rooms.

who really respond to the Lou Dobbs/Republican nativist call. I don't like illegal immigration--no one does--it's a problem that needs solving, but why let it turn into something irrational and inflammatory?

Passive aggression doesnt seem to suit you somehow.

try and use an honest argument. And try and use your own words, not the right wings

Every single argument you've made so far has been used by a republican. Every. Single. One

Because I think Ive agreed with points made by people on both sides of the discussion. Notice I said "discussion" since thats what Im trying to have. And speaking of honesty... you cant really honestly think that any candidate could win on an open border policy such as what you seem to advocate. But rather than have a conversation it seems youd prefer to try to jam me into a neat little anti-democratic box. So, since you dont seem to understand the situation... it IS the REPUBLICAN arguments that our candidate will have to face. And Im guessing you havent seen the ads Romney is running in NH and IA. He's attacking Dems on immigration ALREADY and it seems to working out quite well for him.

Many of the responses to your OP show exactly why this issue could cost the Dems the WH ~ until it happens in their communities, Dems just don't get the costs their fellow citizens are being asked to pay (and not just monetary costs).

and those who frame it as anti-immigration are not helping the matter. For some people its self preservation. But not everyone understands that.

Where did you get the idea that you two are the only ones who have ever lived in communities with large numbers of undocumented residents?

Where I live, we have one of the highest #'s of undocumented residents in the nation

I lived in a community with a large number of undocumented residents. I dont. Please. I live in NH. Ninety something percent white.

I live in a community with a population of undocumented aliens that is probably larger than the entire population of your closest city

How many years have you had kids in a school district that struggles with more and more kids who don't even speak the language, districts that are forced to hire assistants to help out ~ and how many times have your taxes gone up to pay for those assistants?

My guess is you're too young to ever have paid much in the way of income taxes, much less property taxes ~ and have never had a kid in school, or one who needed to go to the hospital but couldn't because the hospital had been infected with TB, since Clinton decided to let infected Haitians walk in off the beaches.

When you have property and children to protect, your reaction to illegal immigration might be less kneejerk.

First it was "They broke the law!!" Then it was the environment. Now it's taxes.

I think we're getting to the bottom of why you really don't like immigration. You want to continue to consume without regard to the environment, and lay the burden on others.

And just as you were wrong to accuse me of living in an area with few undocumented residents, you are just as wrong about taxes. I live in one of the highest tax areas in the nation.

Where I live, we have had large numbers of people with drug resistant TB and we've never had to shut down a beach or a hospital because of it.

...over illegal immigration. It's a HUGE issue for many reasons ~ border security, the overwhelming cost to communities, over-population in general, job loss (especially for high school and college kids), uninsured drivers on the road, the fact that those immigrants doing the right thing and following the rules are getting screwed, just the fact that the law means nothing in this country anymore.

The list goes on and on ~ but instead of reading the words people post and really taking them in, you assume other posters are racist or hateful, or even suggest that they're being dishonest. You're a perfect example of why the Dems could lose the election over this ~ a kneejerk inability to hear what caring, sincere and patriotic people are saying.

It was YOU who started complaining about immigration, and used intellectually dishonest repubican talking points

And I never said anyone on DU is racist. You are not telling the truth. Please post a link to one post where I call someone a racist. I haven't even said that a post was racist, nevermind a poster.

And it's the posters who repeat republican talking points that are doing the knee-jerking. That's what the repukes are famous for

Here's a list of the recent polls. Most also agree that it would be impossible to deport them. While most US citizens oppose driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, that will remain a state issue. Most Repugs running on anti-immigration messages lost in recent local and state elections. The handling of the immigration issue will also either keep Hispanics home on election day or turn them out in record numbers. It is an issue that our party needs to embrace with a sensible policy that combines a path to citizenship, increased border security, and a crackdown on employers of illegal immigrants.

30% were in favor of the bill, 28% thought it went too far, and only 15% thought it didn't go far enough. Only 15% opposed the bill because they thought it was too weak on illegal immigrants. 28% though it was too harsh on illegal immigrants. The hard right think that it'll be an issue to play to their base. After the '06 and recent local elections, it doesn't look like that'll work. However, if we go wishy-washy on immigration issues because we are afraid of supporting something that a majority of US citizens support, we'll play right into their hands. It'll depress the Hispanic vote and make us look like weak flip-floppers. It's better to throw it back at them with a strong clear policy.

Thanks for pointing that out. So many polls on that page it was starting to make my head spin. 22% unsure though makes it really hard to predict exactly how it would have played out if they'd had an opinion. Still... it seems likely that, if trends were followed, more would have thought it went too far. Very interesting. I hadnt seen that one. Thanks again!

And, we have to expect the R's will try to make this the #1 issue. If I were them I would hammer us with it. This is a HUGE problem for us. Thankfully Biden came out against the license idea on the same night as the debate.

with that point of view. If anything ever causes me to vote Republican it will be if the Dem candidate is soft on illegal immigration.

Dems had better not run from it.

I bet suddenly, their breaking the law is no longer the problem, and replaced with anti-immigrantion arguments

There are lots of stupid people in this country and the Republican think tanks always figure out a way to make these imbeciles think that Democrats are going to cost them a couple hundred bucks at tax time if we're elected. Until our people figure out a way to convince those fools that we're not going to hit them in their pocketbooks, we're always going to struggle getting enough votes. It's a simple thing to explain, but so far our people have failed miserably at doing so.

to polichic. She's going off on the right-wing taxes meme

Renegotiate NAFTA - with stopping illegal immigration being unnegotiable
Pin the blame on Republicans for failing to bring down the full force of the law on businesses that hire undocumented workers.
A general emphasis on securing boarders from terrorism - adding in inspection of containers, and unsafe imports.

eom

I hate to come off like a troll here but it really is ridiculous. This is one issue where one side gets it's say on the public stage and the other is not represented at all. In effect, if you think it's going to cost your candidate for not endorsing the Lou Dobbs hate fest you're sorely mistaken.

There are lots of people that agree with amnesty and the rights for anyone to gain citizenship that wants it. Primarily the Unions which is a constituent this party can't afford to lose AND IS LOSING AT A RAPID RATE.

You're only speaking of your own wishes here.

and they won't hesitate to use fear-mongering ("we'll lose the election") or repuke talking points to get it, just like the republicans.

I won't throw anyone under the bus to win an election (except maybe repukes)

I have many wishes. But losing in '08 is not one of them. And by the way... Romney is already running anti-immigration ads here as well as Iowa. And it seems to be working pretty well for him since hes ahead in both states.

Don't be surprised when you lose Union support and the left in general.

You'll just landslide the election for the Republican.

I don't know how Romney's ad demonstrates anything besides the fact that it works for repukes. Most dems, and more importantly most americans, are OK with reasonable comprehensive reform that includes a path to citizenship.

the alternative you suggest is to join in the stupidity? Immigrants are not the problem, and have never been the problem in this country of immigrants. They have been, from time to time, a convenient target to distract from the real problems - hate the irish, hate the italians, hate the japanese, hate the chinese, hate, hate, hate...

All the Dems have to do is attack him (every day over and over) on his policies in NYC, and his total hypocrisy. Once you muddy those waters, then all advantages to Rudy dissipate.