Is Immigration really this "no brainer"-"slam dunk" issue ?

I see the punditocracy is having a ball with this issue. So are many anti-immigrant activists throughout the land who think this issue will decide the next election.

It may decide my vote too except for one small thing; I don't endorse the Lou Dobbs view on this subject. I also don't think Simcox and his fellow border cops are heroes on this issue either. As a matter of fact, I find them to be the most vile specimens of human scum on the planet.

I support the plight of illegal immigrants coming here and the plight of poor people domesticly and abroad. To put is plainly I find the "these people are breaking the law" to be a bullshit excuse and a poor rallying cry. It shuts off critical thinking and is the same thing as "either you are with us or you are against us".

In this struggle we fight for economic equality and social justice, I don't see these people as my enemy. For that reason I will not vote for any candidate that seeks to use these people as whipping post to get into office. I saw it done with gays in the last election and in the nineties, Welfare Mothers. The welfare reform (that great piece of bipartisan legislation) will always, for me, be the huge pock mark on the Clinton presidency.

There may be a large sized constituency that feels they can effect the outcome of any election should a candidate not go their way on this issue. To that, I say, "There are just as many as me and I have tons of card carrying Union members behind me."

We can effect this election too.

I got one immigrant hater going from "it's illegal" to "they're bad for the environment" to "zero population growth" to "they bring diseases" to "they closed down beaches and hospitals" until we finally got to the real money - taxes

And then the poster claimed to be a "bleeding heart" liberal

Oh, and the poster doesn't believe that children born in the US should be US citizens

Anti Immigrant sentiment has been used for centuries to pit people against each other. I think most Liberals understand this although at some times are just as succeptable to fear campaigns as the other.

I think it's strange for someone to support such an idea that claim to be a liberal though. It's not the immigrants, it's the system we live in that has everyone believing we must subsists on the crumbs that fall from the table.

A liberal knows to change the system so it's a just system. Laws and such are written and designed by flawed men. Many of them with their own designs as well. Our immigration laws have historicaly proven a great example of that.

All you need are functioning ears or eyes. Every election they do it. Every. Single. Election

I'm tired of seeing the workers taking all the abuse for what is essentially a problem with bosses.

But bosses wear suits and drive fancy cars while workers wear blue jeans and drive beaters or bicycles. So the bosses must be right.

THE HARD TRUTH OF IMMIGRATION
NO SOCIETY HAS A BOUNDLESS CAPACITY TO ACCEPT NEWCOMERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN MANY OF THEM ARE POOR OR UNSKILLED WORKERS.

Newsweek June 13, 2005

http://www.newsweek.com/id/50081

"But no society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many are poor and unskilled. There are now an estimated 34 million immigrants in the United States, about a third of them illegal. About 35 percent lack health insurance and 26 percent receive some sort of federal benefit, reports Steven Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies. To make immigration succeed, we need (paradoxically) to control immigration."

The open borders people need to understand this as well as the anti-immigration people. In order to get back to a 'happy median' we need to control immigration. Right now the 'globalizationists' are pushing hard for more H1Bs visas and even more outsourcing of jobs. It's what stains Hilary Clinton's campaign.

Read his summation of the issue;

<<<<<The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger?>>>>>>

He's also citing the Center for Immigration Studies and George Borjas?

Yeah, those folks are squeaky clean.

Do you have any idea who John Tanton and the Scaifes are?

All the arguments against immigration come from the right wing loonies. Every. Single. One

Picking up a history book won't cure chronic reactionaries

Or I suppose you think that anti immigrants have it right in that wealthy white Europeans should be the only ones allowed. This argument is as much about class as it is racist as well.

I have one stipulation for thost that argue against immigration. If it is so beneficial to the financial success of this nation, I suppose you would have no problem giving them back the 40 billion dollars they put into the federal coffers.

Do that math on how 40 Billion a year gets split up between 15 million people.

what country on this planet has completely open borders and gives non-citizens equal rights and privileges? of course, I'm a xenophobe.

because it sets up everything as open borders let them all come vs. walls across Mexico.

Facts ignored here: we have an aging population. Aging populations require more service-oriented workers to handle things like nursing homes and general care and thousands of other things. Our demographics at this time do not point to having enough workers to fill these positions without rising costs and doing without.

Take the Social Security "debate". The problem as many state it is that when baby boomers retire the work force taxes will not be large enough to cover the payments without increases. We can immigrate our way out of this "problem" if we accept people into the system, something no Repug would ever admit.

Point is yes, all nations have to control their borders. There would be times when restrictions would be necessary - but it is not here and now. We don't need chaos and mass migrations, but we would benefit from increasing our young working population and bringing more people into the mainstream, exactly the solution to large societal problems Repugs don't want.

Repugs are only worried that these folks aren't going to vote Repug, and they are using the nations xenophobia to create more problems and fear. They have no thought for our long-term benefit, only for creating political environments where reasonable solutions can't be formulated.

Because undocumented aliens are subject to deportation, they are reluctant to contact the police or any other govt agency. If they were not subject to deportation, employers could not cheat them out of their wages and benefits and the undocumented would be more likely to form or join unions.

Bam!! 90% of the problems associated with immigration disappear. Employers no longer have a reason to import cheap labor (because they'll have to pay legal wages).

Are you in favor of allowing IAs to get licenses?

I think this issue will cost us the election, if HC or Obama gets the nomination.

Aren't most union members against illegal immigration because it lowers wages?

I am not a liberal on this issue, and you can call me any name you want, but I want illegal immigration stopped. Deal with the ones here after that.

The reasons against illegal immigration make more sense to me.

All you get from the opposition on this is that you're a racist, xenophobe, redneck, etc. I guess common sense went out the window.

And just what it is this supposed to mean;

<<<<<The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger>>>>>>

He chose his words carefully there.

Do you know if that is a eugenicist argument he's referring to there?

And most Union members are not against Illegal immigration. I think you should look at the AFL/CIO position on the subject and that of the Teamsters. ANd Union members don't hold the idea that immigration lowers wages. They hold the position that having one set of people entitled to certain rights while exempting another does; ie the rights of one group to join a union while restricting another.

Do you really give a crap if they get drivers licenses? This has to be the most paranoid illogical pile of bunk arguement since the claim the right made about gay marriage destroying families.

I am of the opinion that if that one really gets you your really sticking your nose to far up other peoples asses.

As I stated earlier. If the anti immigration folks get their way I have only one stipulation, you give them their money back out of the federal coffers. That's 40 billion anually for every year. I'm sure the immigrants will take that deal in a flash.

Your grandparents/ parents and elders might not be too happy about that decision.

as I think permitting this will encourage more illegal immigration. As to gay marriage, I seem to be in agreement with you--I am not against it.

If you have a link that shows AFL/CIO position on illegal immigration I will check it out. It would surprise me if they favor illegal immigration as you seem to suggest.

"I think permitting this will encourage more illegal immigration"

My response to rabid anti-immigrant people is to ask them why they are more angry at those simply trying to earn a living than they are at those making a profit off of cheap (and, yes, illegal) labor.

Foreigners would not make the harrowing journey to this country if they did not know they could get work. So, who's to blame for the illegal labor pool?

immigrants staying here and taking jobs away from citizens.
I could write a book on the effort it took me to acquire the
green card and then the US citizenship. And these illegals just
walk across the Rio Grande and are given healthcare, welfare,
free maternity services, free education for their kids, and
driver's licenses. Makes no sense whatsoever.

There are two other active immigration threads and I've given my views there ~ but I hope you do write that much-needed book!

That's the biggest lie running in this debate. It's also straight out of the mouths of right wing talking heads. And you being an immigrant with a Green Card were entitled to those services as well.

We live in a great country that sees education as a RIGHT. I don't have any reciepts for the money I paid for public education and folks that are citizens that don't pay property taxes are afforded the same rights. Same is said of healthcare as well although it's not entirly publicly funded. But to lay that problem at the feet of immigrants is to dismiss the wolves feeding on the sheep. Not to mention that Americans do go to Mexico and Canada all the time for their healthcare and prescription meds. As a matter of fact, prescription meds in Mexico are a hell of a lot less exopensive than they are here. So is their healthcare system as whole. Thinking they come here to exploit our broken health care system is laughable at best.

It's thinking like this that's primarily the reason why I won't vote for a candidate that goes along with it.

and lowering the payscales for citizens. And ALL of these illegal
immigrant workers use fraudulent social security numbers since they
can't get a legal social security number. How is that good for the
US citizen whose social security account is being abused?

A lot of these illegal immigrants work for cash and thus pay no taxes.
I am sure some do pay taxes by using the fradulent social security numbers.

As for Americans obtaining cheap meds in Mexico, that is perfectly LEGAL!
I am NOT against immigrants, being one myself, I just want them to stand in
the line like I did and not bypass the laws of our country.

So that's also a load of bunk. The money that they pay into federal coffers they don't benefit from at all.

Unfortunatly this is a capitalist society. In such a society you do now own your job. So it's kind of a lame case to make that they are stealing jobs from people. There is a reason they do the jobs they do. Those jobs have minimum wage exemptions and that's why Americans won't do them.

Folks like Monsanto have seen to that.

Obtaining prescription meds from foreign countries and bringing them here is ILLEGAL.

It is factually proven that immigrants contribute 40 billion anually to federal coffers. That is a fact that stands on it's own just as the world is round. Trying to get around that will make you look more like an idealogue than a rational person.

But anti immigrants activists generally are indealogues much like 9/11 conspiracy theorists. I'm beginning to think a lot of these people are a little slow to catch up to facts much like the people who think Saddam was connected to Al Queda.

When you travel abroad, as I frequently do for long periods
of time, and you happen to need services of a doctor and she
prescribes you meds, it is perfectly legal to bring your personal
meds back with you. I have done it, the customs officials at the
airports have no problem with that. What is illegal is to import
prescription meds into US which are NOT your personal meds or
the quantity is over and above what is considered normal.

I didn't see any acknowledgement on your part that you were wrong to say that immigrants don't pay taxes

yes, there are some meds ou can take with you abroad. Insulin and such.

Narcotic meds OTOH are highly restricted and in most cases even a prescription will not suffice. Much of it regarding narcotic meds and antibiotics are also dependent on FDA approval.

Either way, these meds are less expensive in Canada and Mexico as well as the delivery of care.

Because labor costs are comparable. Mexico should be cheaper because
of their much lower labor cost. Why won't our congress pass laws to
allow importation of meds from abroad? I think it should be done.

I have been reading articles of a large number of Britons are travelling
to countries such as Thailand & India to receive extensive medical service.
It is cheaper and you don't have a long wait.

Is it legal for an illegal immigrant to get a social security card?
My understanding is it is not.

So if you can't file a proper tax return without a legitimate SS number,
you are not paying the proper amount of required legal tax.

But the paramount question is not if the illegals pay taxes. The real
point is they are here illegally and therefore should not be working
in the first place. It does not matter if they pay double the required tax.

The best way to send them to their home country is to place heavy fines on
employers who hire them. That will save all the expense to taxpayers of rounding
them up.

What I've learned here so far.

Immigrants don't really hurt anybody. Even when all the harm that people claim they do turns out to be false we finally arrive at that destiniation. So we are left with the old absolute "They is illegal and that all that mattter".

As if there is not such a thing as good laws or bad laws. That law procaliming that a harmless act is illegal is all that is needed.

That leaves me to ask the final question. Who, at the end of the day is really harming who?

The immigrant, who may be illegal, but is very dilligent in not harming anyone while he is here to remain undetected. He pays taxes here, is harassed by faux border cops, is hated by people his taxes support and does not collect a return nor does he ask for a return.

Enter the guy who hates the people for no apparent reason, makes up a bunch of reasons and when shown the error of his ways is left with "Their illegal and I just don't like them because he is illegal". This guy wants to increase government spending by locking down the border to protect us from people who cause us no harm and actually benefits us.

So the issue comes down to wasting money to support a paranoia trip vs not wasting money where no harm results.

Pass laws which subject employers of illegal immigrants to very heavy
fines and mandatory jail sentence. It won't cost much to do that.
You will be surprised how fast the illegal immigrants will leave the
country on their own. We won't even have to pay for their return trip.

Is there anything about the issue that you can't get wrong?

Does deportation always mean "forced" deportation? If so, I stand
corrected. Ok let us call it voluntary emigration of illegal immigrants!
Happy?

We don't need to pass any laws that allow the undocumented to leave, and yes, the language does matter. I suggest you read George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language". It used to be required reading in High School

on edit: I don't see anyone objecting to a crackdown on illegal employers

The illegal employers hiring illegal immigrants should be fined AND JAILED

good night!

on edit, illegal employers exploiting illegal immigrants...

is that medicare and social security only (funds they will never collect back) or does that also include withheld funds deposited by employers with the feds and state for which they don't file returns?

You got called on you first load of BS, so now you're changing your argument

And lots of Americans work for cash too. I wonder if you have a problem with them

"I just want them to stand in
the line like I did and not bypass the laws of our country."

I have no idea how standing in line makes you more entitled to the rights and priviliges of citizenship. It sounds angrily irrational, as if standing in a line makes one a better person

And as far as bypassing the law, if that were really your problem with immigration you would support making all immigration legal.

Breaking any law makes you a criminal. I am sorry, but I do
not support breaking laws no matter how irrational. Otherwise we
have anarchy.

Yes, I have a problem with anyone getting paid and not paying payroll
taxes. Citizen or not. Otherwise the other taxpayers are carrying the burden.

If you're only problem is that it's breaking the law, then you should have no objection to making it legal to cross the border

(Here's where you change your argument once more without acknowledging that this was a very weak argument)

There used to be laws making it illegal to harbor slaves who had escaped their owners. I'm sure you would suggest we deport those criminal shelterers

welfare (actually that's BS. It's hard for an American to get welfare these days) maternity services, and education.

And all because they didn't have to jump through hoops the way you did. I got news for you - their journey is more difficult than yours was. How many people died on the plane/car/ship you came in on?

That's the line we need to repeat.

Just a quibble

The most pressing and realistic is whistle blowed protection for immigrants working here legally and illegally. The issue needs to focus on working conditions and that all workers are entitled to protection regardless of their status. Not to mention their rights to join a Union which congress snubbed the AFL/CIO on when it aproved NAFTA.

Restricting people from crossing an imaginary line is unrealistic. For as much as it's been tryed in other places it's never worked effectivly. The Berlin Wall was as porous as a piece of swiss cheeze with people sneaking across constantly. Alls it does is create a black market for human smuggeling where guards can easily be bribed to look the other way.

To triangualte on this topic would be disastrous for any Democratic nominee. You will lose the support of Unions who see tight border restriction as impeding their goal to gloablize their collective bargaining rights. Corporations already take advantage of the Union NAFTA snubbing with tight immigration restrictions as it is.

You will lose much of the left who see this in the same light as the unions do as a matter of social and economic justice. I'd really think twice on that as both will withhold their votes leading to a landslide by the Republican candidate.

licenses for illegal aliens? That kind of result here at DU still surprises me. I think more voters are against illegal immigration than you or many in Washington realize. The outcry against the

And did you suggest above that the AFL/CIO is in favor of illegal immigration? If so do you have a link?

Look up the AFL/CIO stance on your own. It's plainly posted on their website. Funny how people have such strong opinions on a topic and barely research all facets of it.