Dean: "This country is not a theocracy,...there are no bars to heaven for anybody"

There are right wing heads flipping over this. I say good for him.

His statement which is quite sensible, with a misleading headline by the Politico (as usual).



His statement came after this statement by a coach:



I very much appreciate Josh Marshall's tongue in cheek, rather irreverent take on this.

Breaking!



You really need to read some of the comments at the Politico. There are a few which are just very perceptive...but others show total lack of comprehension.

Here is a perceptive one:



And one more:



Interesting comments, very true, that we have no right to judge who goes to heaven, if there be the traditional concept of one...and who does not.

I'm with Josh Marshall...how did we get here.

Governor Dean, better drag out some attack proof vests or something when more people find out what you said.

But good for you for having the courage to say it, to say something real and not contrived.

for bringing us so much Howard Dean news, madfloridian.

I always appreciate it.

And it misrepresented the statement.

Apparently it was a speech in which he really blasted the GOP, and some said it was too "partisan".

Well, Heaven forbid that the Chair of the Democratic Party be partisan....Do you know whom it was who said that? Glen Beck, maybe? Ann Coulter? 'Cause we all know neither of them are EVER too partisan......:rofl:

Oh, and thanks, madfloridian...you are always right on to of the really wierd stuff that is being said....Sometimes cube rats are not able to keep up. Thanks "muchly" (as my dad used to say).

so I write about it.

If I find the two posts that are really bad I will link to them.

:-)

Yeshua ben Joseph never said that he died for the sins of only the converted.

If he did die, he did it for all of us.

That misnomer and fallacy has created nothing but suffering.

Peace on.

It really shocks me everytime. It's a powerful statement, but it will scare the Democrats to death because the right wing blogs are going after it.

He will probably get lectures about being more subdued. :shrug:

As a recovering Southern Baptist I find the statement refreshing.

OMG, that caught me off guard. I thought they already had. I will bet they go after HD tomorrow with all barrels blazing.

Nice to see straight talk, though.

For freedom of religion. To practice or not practice the religion of our choice. So 365 years later we are stuck with another King George ....who tells us when and what kind of religion we should practice.

That old Constitution...sure doesn't mean anything to the people in this country does it.

This is a very weird time in our country, and I am not sure when it all came together. My dad was chair of deacons, and I remember in the 80s he said something was changing in the church...something about bigotry. I was not paying that much attention then. I am now.

I knew a Lutheran minister that was ex-communicated(and I thought only Catholics did that) by the elder leaders of the Missouri Synod way back in the early 1970s. The thought was that those who thought the bible was literal were the true believers whereas those who took it as parables and stories leading everyone to the good life were wrong and in need of punishment.
The Synod-X(or X-Synod, I forget) was formed for those 'non-believers'.

That was also the time of the 'Born-Again' idiots that traded their political capital for the security of the imaginary guy in the sky..?


edit for spelling

...I've often thought that the fundies should be the first ones to be screaming about government telling people how to pray, when to pray, what to say when they pray, and whom they pray to.

The righties keep screaming about "God being thrown out of schools." Must be a pretty poor god if he can be thrown out of school by a mere judge. The God I worshipped never missed a day of school, and I could pray to Him any time I wanted to, and no school board or federal court could keep me from it.

Your quote from JFK actually fits this subject quite well. The persistent, persuasive myth of heaven -at least its a myth to some of us - and the arguments over who gets to go to this mythic place are a monumental waste of our time. We have serious problems to solve and we need serious people and action to get them solved if we can solve them at all and we need to stop wasting time and energy arguing over myths. What century is this anyway?

I think the even bigger lie is the concept of salvation. That somehow one will be able to escape the suffering of this world through anything other than good works and true fruition of the soul.

Il faut cultiver notre jardin. To be Candide.

Depends on the calender you're using :7

Unless he goes through Ann Coulter's reprogramming course on how to make Jews complete.

...not only has he rebuilt Ohio's long-ignored party, but he throws the odd brick upside the RWSM's collective heads.

My people had to haul ass out of Scotland and France a few hundred years back, because they liked Marin Luther and the State Churches were "enforcing orthodoxy". In Scotland, that meant hanging a few Protestants, after which the rest escaped to Ireland: in France, it meant the Church raped, plundered, pillaged, murdered and despoiled thousands. My ancestors were among the relative few that made it out alive.

Can you imagine what America looked like to the succeeding generations? Paradise, in a word. A place without Bishops and Cardinals whispering in the King's ear, where they could build their little churches and attend them without fear.

And the infuriating thing is: it is now fundagelical Protestants who want to be the oppressors. No sense of history, these yutzes.

"...Too many people have lied in the name of Christ for anyone to heed the call,
Too many people have died in the name of Christ, and I can't believe it all..."

--David Crosby, "Cathedral"

I am getting goosebumps remembering it. Graham Nash hitting the high part on "high above the altar'....

Freedom OF religion has to include freedom FROM religion, definitely.

"Cathedral"
Words & Music - Graham Nash

Six o' clock
In the morning, I feel pretty good
So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
Fighting dragons and crossing swords
With the people against the hordes
Who came to conquer.

Seven o'clock
In the morning, here it comes
I taste the warning and I am so amazed
I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way
To Stonehenge.

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
This can't be the place

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.

And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine.
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time.
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high.

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
It's hard enough to drink the wine.
The air inside just hangs in delusion,
But given time,
I'll be fine

That a prominent politician is applauded as opposing theocracy for saying that anyone can go to heaven, when what he ought to be saying is that the state should have no position on such religious concepts.

What happened to good ol' "Separation of Church and State?"

I am sick to DEATH of hearing all about GOD in the halls of JUSTICE, in the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, in the U.S. SENATE...

I am sick to DEATH of hearing "UNDERGODUNDERGODUNDERGODUNDERGODUNDERGODUNDERGOD" left and right...

I am sick to DEATH of hearing "GOD BLESS AMERICA" ALL THE "GOD DAMNED" TIME...

Where the FUCK are MY RIGHTS? This is a SECULAR NATION, and I am sick to DEATH of hearing about someone's concept of eternity based on their "FAITH" every time I want to participate in some government function.

People, it is 2007. Time to let the shit GO. You want GOD? There's a church on every corner. GO THERE, or I swear, I am going to take up some esoteric ancient religion involving "reading the entrails" or some other nauseating practice, and every single FUCKING time I hear "GOD BLESS AMERICA" I will insist on sacrificing a goat to get Zeus' spin on whether or not we are doing the right thing.

I am NOT an Atheist, but as an Agnostic, I DON'T KNOW what is out there, IF ANYTHING, and I don't need my doubts and fears about death and eternity rubbed in my face if I decide to attend a lousy City Council Meeting.

...the Fundagelicals are going to keep right on until they turn this nation into a theocracy. It is sad that Dean and others have to debate the topic, but if we don't, we will lose our secular nation through inaction.

I suggest ACTIVE, PURPOSEFUL CHALLENGE as soon as we get someone in office who will nominate Justices to SCOTUS that will FOLLOW THE DAMNED CONSTITUTION.

...with those who do not believe, to fight for all of our rights. These tyrannical Zealots would enslave us all.

I believe one of Kurt Vonnegut's characters said:

"Don't throw any snakes in MY religion, and I won't throw any in YOURS."

Hey, some of them LIKE handling snakes.


I miss Vonnegut. :-(

Governor Sonny Purdue is going to have a group of people pray for rain on the capitol today - if they haven't already.

Separation of church and ...what?

Wish I knew some native americans that would have been willing to do a rain dance in the background. I think that would have been more useful. (sigh)

But I agree...this is gonna get some Fundies heads exploding...not a bad thing IMO./..

theoretically correct. Unfortunately, the Decider has decided through his unitary executive powers that we are a theocratic oligarchy like his model, Saudi Arabia. When we start having weekly beheadings on Fridays, we'll know for sure.