If you think Obama is all style an no substance try reading his books or his website.

Don't be intellectually lazy....that is the main reason we are still dealing with Hillary as a candidate.

You don't like what you read in his book we can certainly chat about that but vainglorious criticism that he lack substance when you have not read The Audacity of Hope for yourself is just mindless rantings of a juvenile mind.

a suggestion of no substance in the case of Obama is utterly vapid.....You read the book and don't like what he says. I will defend your right to your view and you will have my respect for putting forth some minimal effort

You do nothing and accuse him of not having substance, I think it's intellectually lazy.

skim the book at least.

And, if someone hasn't -- som fucking what?

one way or another.

Have you said he lacks substance?
Have you read his books?
Read his Website?
Compared it tot he substance provided by others?
Have you looked at the issues he went after in Illinois?

:popcorn:

I'm sure all you Obama people are intellectually superior to every other American and possibly the world.

My comment is directed only at those who say he has no substance but have not read his book.

But I have been paying attention to what Obama did in the senate, and I don't see a lot of leadership happening. I had high hopes for him and he has been a bit disappointing. But to be fair, most of the dems have been disappointing.

Hopefully, if he is our nominee and gets elected, he will lead. But for now, I still need more convincing.

By the way, it's usually good to have an "elevator speech" ready whenever you talk about why your candidate is the one you support. You need to be able to tell someone the facts about him or her in about 15 seconds, not tell them to 'go read a book.'

I don't see what programs he is proposing.
So either he doesn't know, or doesn't want us to know.

Either way troubles me.

... by explaining what the fuss is about, where the beef is, etc.

Seems kind of elitist to say, you can't understand until you read his books. And is this the challenge we'll have to put out to Indie and Republican voters? Until you read his books, you won't know whether to vote for him?

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

People said some of these things were impossible, like recorded interrogations, but he got it passed 58-0. An end to the politics of hate, and still getting progressive policies implemented. Beef.


http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

... politics of scorched earth? How's Harry and Nancy's plan for that working out?

Thanks for the link, though. Will check it out.

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

And putting important policy fights on the internet and CSpan so people know exactly who is saying what and why. He said that in the speech last night, I'm surprised you missed it.

You keep asking for people to help you out, yet when somebody does, you ignore it. I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Man's gotta eat.

Feel free to dock me a day's pay.

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

The thread dies, and another one demanding what the big deal is and accusing him of being all style no substance, pro-corporate, republican-lite pops up in it's place.

I have asked over and over and never get an answer.

Is that mostly because you view his approach to be too moderate? Too Conciliatory?

have purchased an Ann Coulter book.

I mean I realize he sort of knocks a liberalism that is stuck in the 60's and he alsocomplains about the wayliberals have historically confronted conservatives as ineffectice and self-serving rather than accepting of incrementalism. But that is largely a generation thing that sooner or later we are going to have to deal with as a party. He is 46 years onld. He missed the 1960s and the 1970s. It is unreasonable to require him to have the same touchstones as people older than he. He comes at the world as a product of the 1980s, his perspective is naturally different. I view that as valuable rather than damning.

do to bring about the BIG CHANGE he keeps mouthing about. He can SAY it.

Words are ideas. Actions give words substance.

I've heard a lot of words from Obama, but I haven't seen much action or substance following up those words.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

And here are some of the bills he sponsored in Senate session 109:

http://tinyurl.com/38xhc8

There are some 348 co-sponsored bills

He sponsored 113 bills in Session 110 and co-sponsored 346.

You can use this page to search (it doesn't allow you to paste in a URL for search results):

http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d110query.html

is increasing the fuel efficiency standards for vehicles. Obama likes to stress his conciliatory approach, and illustrates this by saying that he'll provide tax credits and loan guarantees to domestic auto manufacturers to assist them in producing vehicles which will meet these ever-increasing standards! Great!

But then let's take a look at my candidate of choice, John Edwards..."Mr. I Hate Capitalism", according to some DUers. Let's look at his plan to address this concern!

Help U.S. Automakers Modernize: Edwards will provide $1 billion a year to help U.S. automakers advance and apply the latest technology, including biofuels, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and electric cars, hydrogen fuel cells, ultra-light materials, and drive train improvements. He will also invest in engine efficiency and low-carbon fuels for the freight, aviation, and maritime transportation, such as biodiesel for truck fleets. These resources will be financed from the New Energy Economy Fund and also help manufacturers meet higher fuel economy requirements. Edwards will also use federal procurement policy to encourage freight companies with government contracts to use low-carbon fleets. With a strong ethanol industry that includes cellulosic ethanol and hybrid and electric technology, American cars and trucks can be virtually petroleum-free within a generation.

http://www.johnedwards.com/issues/energy/new-energy-economy/

Gee, it sounds like he really hates the corporations and wants to see them destroyed!! :eyes:

When you see similarities like this in terms of the issues, it pretty much then comes down to gut feelings and perceptions based on personality...I don't think it's correct to dismiss this aspect of candidate choice.

put out decent products in tweny years? Why should we reward their failure of vision. this is a carrot approach? Where is the stick?

I'm just trying to make the point that when you get down to brass tacks, Edwards is as capable of bringing interests together as Obama, although many of O's supporters don't want to admit it!

The Problem
Foreign Oil: America's 20-million-barrel-a-day oil habit costs our economy $1.4 billion a day, and $500 billion in 2006 alone. Every single hour, we spend $41 million on foreign oil.

Climate Change: As a result of climate change, glaciers are melting faster; the polar ice caps are shrinking; trees are blooming earlier; more people are dying in heat waves; species are migrating, and eventually many will become extinct.

Barack Obama's Plan
Reduce Carbon Emissions 80 Percent by 2050
Cap and Trade: Obama supports implementation of a market-based cap-and-trade system to reduce carbon emissions by the amount scientists say is necessary: 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. Obama's cap-and-trade system will require all pollution credits to be auctioned. A 100 percent auction ensures that all polluters pay for every ton of emissions they release, rather than giving these emission rights away to coal and oil companies. Some of the revenue generated by auctioning allowances will be used to support the development of clean energy, to invest in energy efficiency improvements, and to address transition costs, including helping American workers affected by this economic transition.
Confront Deforestation and Promote Carbon Sequestration: Obama will develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers, and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands, or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
Invest in a Clean Energy Future
Invest $150 Billion over 10 Years in Clean Energy: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid. A principal focus of this fund will be devoted to ensuring that technologies that are developed in the U.S. are rapidly commercialized in the U.S. and deployed around the globe.
Double Energy Research and Development Funding: Obama will double science and research funding for clean energy projects including those that make use of our biomass, solar and wind resources.
Invest in a Skilled Clean Technologies Workforce: Obama will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade auction program to invest in job training and transition programs to help workers and industries adapt to clean technology development and production. Obama will also create an energy-focused Green Jobs Corps to connect disconnected and disadvantaged youth with job skills for a high-growth industry.
Convert our Manufacturing Centers into Clean Technology Leaders: Obama will establish a federal investment program to help manufacturing centers modernize and Americans learn the new skills they need to produce green products.
Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund: Obama will create a Clean Technologies Venture Capital Fund to fill a critical gap in U.S. technology development. Obama will invest $10 billion per year into this fund for five years. The fund will partner with existing investment funds and our National Laboratories to ensure that promising technologies move beyond the lab and are commercialized in the U.S
Require 25 Percent of Renewable Electricity by 2025: Obama will establish a 25 percent federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) to require that 25 percent of electricity consumed in the U.S. is derived from clean, sustainable energy sources, like solar, wind and geothermal by 2025.
Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology: Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies. Obama will consider whatever policy tools are necessary, including standards that ban new traditional coal facilities, to ensure that we move quickly to commercialize and deploy low carbon coal technology.
Support Next Generation Biofuels
Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.
Expand Locally-Owned Biofuel Refineries: Less than 10 percent of new ethanol production today is from farmer-owned refineries. New ethanol refineries help jumpstart rural economies. Obama will create a number of incentives for local communities to invest in their biofuels refineries.
Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard: Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers to reduce the carbon their fuel emits by ten percent by 2020.
Increase Renewable Fuel Standard: Obama will require 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be included in the fuel supply by 2022 and will increase that to at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels like cellulosic ethanol by 2030.
Set America on Path to Oil Independence
Obama's plan will reduce oil consumption by at least 35 percent, or 10 million barrels per day, by 2030. This will more than offset the equivalent of the oil we would import from OPEC nations in 2030.

Increase Fuel Economy Standards: Obama will double fuel economy standards within 18 years. His plan will provide retooling tax credits and loan guarantees for domestic auto plants and parts manufacturers, so that they can build new fuel-efficient cars rather than overseas companies. Obama will also invest in advanced vehicle technology such as advanced lightweight materials and new engines.
Improve Energy Efficiency 50 Percent by 2030
Set National Building Efficiency Goals: Barack Obama will establish a goal of making all new buildings carbon neutral, or produce zero emissions, by 2030. He'll also establish a national goal of improving new building efficiency by 50 percent and existing building efficiency by 25 percent over the next decade to help us meet the 2030 goal.
Establish a Grant Program for Early Adopters: Obama will create a competitive grant program to award those states and localities that take the first steps to implement new building codes that prioritize energy efficiency.
Invest in a Digital Smart Grid: Obama will pursue a major investment in our utility grid to enable a tremendous increase in renewable generation and accommodate modern energy requirements, such as reliability, smart metering, and distributed storage
Restore U.S. Leadership on Climate Change
Create New Forum of Largest Greenhouse Gas Emitters: Obama will create a Global Energy Forum — that includes all G-8 members plus Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa –the largest energy consuming nations from both the developed and developing world. The forum would focus exclusively on global energy and environmental issues.
Re-Engage with the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change: The UNFCCC process is the main international forum dedicated to addressing the climate problem and an Obama administration will work constructively within it.
Barack Obama's Record
Renewable Fuels: Obama has worked on numerous efforts in the Senate to increase access to and use of renewable fuels. Obama passed legislation with Senator Jim Talent (R-MO) to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps. The tax credit covers 30 percent of the costs of switching one or more traditional petroleum pumps to E85, which is an 85 percent ethanol/15 percent gasoline blend. Obama also sponsored an amendment that became law providing $40 million for commercialization of a combined flexible fuel vehicle/hybrid car within five years.
CAFÉ: Obama introduced a bold new plan that brought Republicans and Democrats, CAFÉ supporters and long-time opponents together in support of legislation that will gradually increase fuel economy standards and offer what the New York Times editorial page called "real as opposed to hypothetical results."

with JE's plan are what prompted me to make the original post!

It looks like Edwards is the champion of corporate subsidies.

Of course, sometimes it doesn't. :shrug:

Wow!

Please go to NH along with the OP and work that "charm" for Obama.

Just read thru this one thread....and tell tell me that I need work charm.
there are certain things that don't matter if you do or if you don't....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3951757&mesg_id=3951757

Have you said he lacks substance?
Have you read his books?
Read his Website?
Compared it tot he substance provided by others?
Have you looked at the issues he went after in Illinois?

And I don't expect the electorate to do it either.
Obama is very good with words. I'm looking for substance.
When I see some, I might dole out the cash for the book...but not going to line his pockets at this point when I am not interested in the snake oil he is selling.

You live in area that will support a Black man for President.
I live in an area that still burns crosses on lawns.
It WON'T be at the public library.
I can assure you of that.

:hi:

It is one of the huge reservations I have with him as our candidate.
I have heard some vile things about Obama from DEMOCRATS. Things I wouldn't even DARE to post here because they are so vile.
I know my area is not in a vacuum and that is what scares me most.

BUT he doesn't inspire me. i am not intellectually lazy ... hell, i even work in an academic library in the acquisitions unit surrounded by books all day long. and all these comparisons to JFK, RFK or MLK are flat out wrong. obama is a gifted speaker but a lazy one who does not get into specifics, which he should already have done.

I don't anticipate that most of America will or should have to run out and read Obama's book to draw their conclusion.

It is Obama who needs to add the substance to his platform, and to his speaking engagement.

I would love Obama's substance to match his sizzle.

Here is just one section

The Problem
Foreign Oil: America's 20-million-barrel-a-day oil habit costs our economy $1.4 billion a day, and $500 billion in 2006 alone. Every single hour, we spend $41 million on foreign oil.

Climate Change: As a result of climate change, glaciers are melting faster; the polar ice caps are shrinking; trees are blooming earlier; more people are dying in heat waves; species are migrating, and eventually many will become extinct.

Barack Obama's Plan
Reduce Carbon Emissions 80 Percent by 2050
Cap and Trade: Obama supports implementation of a market-based cap-and-trade system to reduce carbon emissions by the amount scientists say is necessary: 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. Obama's cap-and-trade system will require all pollution credits to be auctioned. A 100 percent auction ensures that all polluters pay for every ton of emissions they release, rather than giving these emission rights away to coal and oil companies. Some of the revenue generated by auctioning allowances will be used to support the development of clean energy, to invest in energy efficiency improvements, and to address transition costs, including helping American workers affected by this economic transition.
Confront Deforestation and Promote Carbon Sequestration: Obama will develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers, and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands, or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.
Invest in a Clean Energy Future
Invest $150 Billion over 10 Years in Clean Energy: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid. A principal focus of this fund will be devoted to ensuring that technologies that are developed in the U.S. are rapidly commercialized in the U.S. and deployed around the globe.
Double Energy Research and Development Funding: Obama will double science and research funding for clean energy projects including those that make use of our biomass, solar and wind resources.
Invest in a Skilled Clean Technologies Workforce: Obama will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade auction program to invest in job training and transition programs to help workers and industries adapt to clean technology development and production. Obama will also create an energy-focused Green Jobs Corps to connect disconnected and disadvantaged youth with job skills for a high-growth industry.
Convert our Manufacturing Centers into Clean Technology Leaders: Obama will establish a federal investment program to help manufacturing centers modernize and Americans learn the new skills they need to produce green products.
Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund: Obama will create a Clean Technologies Venture Capital Fund to fill a critical gap in U.S. technology development. Obama will invest $10 billion per year into this fund for five years. The fund will partner with existing investment funds and our National Laboratories to ensure that promising technologies move beyond the lab and are commercialized in the U.S
Require 25 Percent of Renewable Electricity by 2025: Obama will establish a 25 percent federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) to require that 25 percent of electricity consumed in the U.S. is derived from clean, sustainable energy sources, like solar, wind and geothermal by 2025.
Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology: Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies. Obama will consider whatever policy tools are necessary, including standards that ban new traditional coal facilities, to ensure that we move quickly to commercialize and deploy low carbon coal technology.
Support Next Generation Biofuels
Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.
Expand Locally-Owned Biofuel Refineries: Less than 10 percent of new ethanol production today is from farmer-owned refineries. New ethanol refineries help jumpstart rural economies. Obama will create a number of incentives for local communities to invest in their biofuels refineries.
Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard: Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers to reduce the carbon their fuel emits by ten percent by 2020.
Increase Renewable Fuel Standard: Obama will require 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels to be included in the fuel supply by 2022 and will increase that to at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels like cellulosic ethanol by 2030.
Set America on Path to Oil Independence
Obama's plan will reduce oil consumption by at least 35 percent, or 10 million barrels per day, by 2030. This will more than offset the equivalent of the oil we would import from OPEC nations in 2030.

Increase Fuel Economy Standards: Obama will double fuel economy standards within 18 years. His plan will provide retooling tax credits and loan guarantees for domestic auto plants and parts manufacturers, so that they can build new fuel-efficient cars rather than overseas companies. Obama will also invest in advanced vehicle technology such as advanced lightweight materials and new engines.
Improve Energy Efficiency 50 Percent by 2030
Set National Building Efficiency Goals: Barack Obama will establish a goal of making all new buildings carbon neutral, or produce zero emissions, by 2030. He'll also establish a national goal of improving new building efficiency by 50 percent and existing building efficiency by 25 percent over the next decade to help us meet the 2030 goal.
Establish a Grant Program for Early Adopters: Obama will create a competitive grant program to award those states and localities that take the first steps to implement new building codes that prioritize energy efficiency.
Invest in a Digital Smart Grid: Obama will pursue a major investment in our utility grid to enable a tremendous increase in renewable generation and accommodate modern energy requirements, such as reliability, smart metering, and distributed storage
Restore U.S. Leadership on Climate Change
Create New Forum of Largest Greenhouse Gas Emitters: Obama will create a Global Energy Forum — that includes all G-8 members plus Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa –the largest energy consuming nations from both the developed and developing world. The forum would focus exclusively on global energy and environmental issues.
Re-Engage with the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change: The UNFCCC process is the main international forum dedicated to addressing the climate problem and an Obama administration will work constructively within it.
Barack Obama's Record
Renewable Fuels: Obama has worked on numerous efforts in the Senate to increase access to and use of renewable fuels. Obama passed legislation with Senator Jim Talent (R-MO) to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps. The tax credit covers 30 percent of the costs of switching one or more traditional petroleum pumps to E85, which is an 85 percent ethanol/15 percent gasoline blend. Obama also sponsored an amendment that became law providing $40 million for commercialization of a combined flexible fuel vehicle/hybrid car within five years.
CAFÉ: Obama introduced a bold new plan that brought Republicans and Democrats, CAFÉ supporters and long-time opponents together in support of legislation that will gradually increase fuel economy standards and offer what the New York Times editorial page called "real as opposed to hypothetical results."

Isn't that intellectually lazy too?

Everyone keeps repeating the "Obama lacks substance" meme. Its a ridiculous argument. There's more than enough substance there if people care to make a tiny effort. Its a line people use to feel superior about supporting another candidate.