Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A Response to Gloria Steinem

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:39 PM
Original message
A Response to Gloria Steinem

Published on Thursday, January 10, 2008 by CommonDreams.org
A Response to Gloria Steinem
by Ariel Werner

January 9, 2008

Ms. Steinem,

In your op-ed, ” Women Are Never Front-Runners,” you claim that a woman with Barack Obama’s record, experience, and biography would not be considered a viable candidate for the presidency of the United States, and you call for a feminist movement in support of Hillary Clinton. You declare, “What worries me is that some women, perhaps especially younger ones, hope to deny or escape the sexual caste system.” As one of the countless younger women inspired by and active in Obama’s movement for change, I feel compelled to respond.

Let me begin with an expression of my gratitude. Thanks to the tireless efforts of your feminist generation, I am fortunate to have lived a life, thus far, almost entirely free of the economic, legal, and social barriers that would have prevented me from attaining the rights, benefits, or opportunities afforded my male counterparts. I received an outstanding K-12 public school education alongside male classmates, and the female:male ratio of Brown University, which I now attend, is 53:47. I have never known a time before Title IX, and my mother watched with pride over my four high school years playing Varsity Womens’ Volleyball. I have applied for jobs and internships alongside competitive male applicants and discounted gender as a factor in my ability to attain such positions. I have been blessed by the fight and courage of those of you who came before me. Still, I realize that our fight, as women, is far from over.

For this reason, I feel compelled to use responsibly the rights that I have. This year marks my first year eligible as a voter in a presidential election. One might assume that I am presented with a difficult task: Do I-a hyper-political young feminist-vote for a woman under the assumption that Hillary (back) in the White House brings all women to the White House? Or do I-a socially-conscious activist dedicated to the pursuit of racial equality-vote for the first black man considered a front-runner in a presidential primary?

You see, it’s really not that simple, and I resent, Ms. Steinem, the manner in which you pit race against gender in your op-ed. To your credit, you aim to avoid this juxtaposition, writing, “The caste systems of sex and race are interdependent and can only be uprooted together.” But the very premise of your piece (”Gender is probably the most restricting force in American life”) contradicts this cursory warning. Using Obama’s Iowa victory as evidence, you say, “Black men were given the vote a half-century before women of any race were allowed to mark a ballot, and generally have ascended to positions of power, from the military to the boardroom, before any women.”

But we both know that black Americans lacked any real political power until the Voting Rights and Civil Rights Acts of 1964. We both know that, even after this legislation, the political establishment subdues the black vote through gerrymandering, voter ID laws, felony disenfranchisement, and countless other measures aimed at silencing African-Americans. And we both know that race and gender are not independent of one another but are, rather, entirely interdependent. We know that Hillary might not have gotten to Wellesley or Yale Law or the White House had she been black. We know that the Civil Rights Movement led to serious conflicts over the role of women in its positions of power and respect, and that feminist movements have always led to questions of which women deserve which rights.

Perhaps it is true that a female version of Obama would be unable to rise to his current position. But this is not a defense of Hillary Clinton, whose early life sounds a lot like mine: suburban white girl leaves the nest and becomes socially-conscious at liberal arts college. What is most striking about Hillary’s rise is not the hardship she has faced as a woman seeking power; what is striking about Hillary is what she has done with the power she has accrued. She has become the candidate of the machine. She represents an old, established, well-funded politics. During her Iowa concession speech, Hillary stood with Wesley Clark and Madeleine Albright over her right shoulder, and Bill Clinton over her left…an image worth one thousand words. Ultimately, your defense of Hillary Clinton comes, not with your explanation of sexual caste, but with your applause of Hillary’s experience and resume.

Barack Obama is a candidate of a different mold. He is international, interracial, and inter-party. He has captivated the minds and hearts of a cross-section of Democrats, Independents, Republicans, men, women, blacks, and whites with his call for change and grassroots politics. In my lifetime, I will have lived under 1 year of Reagan, 8 years of Clinton, and 12 years of Bush before our next president takes office. Hopefully, you understand my desperation for a candidate of a different ideological and experiential breed. Hopefully you understand that women of my generation who support Barack Obama do not do so because we take sexism lightly; we do so because Hillary neglects to fight a sexist establishment. Hillary, like Queen Elizabeth, operates under the motto “If you can’t fight ‘em, join ‘em.” We support Obama because we are women, but we are also members of a generation hungry for hope and hungry for action.

This is why I have been paying my own expenses to travel from Rhode Island to New Hampshire since September to talk to voters about Obama’s candidacy. This is why I lead weekly meetings of some sixty Brown students dedicated to the Obama campaign. This is why I drove to New Hampshire on January 3rd and worked the streets and the phones nonstop until the results came in last night. This is why I’m not done yet, and why I look forward to canvassing and calling the voters of nearby February 5 states Massachusetts and Connecticut. This is why I’m ready for change. I am not, as you suggest, hoping to “deny or escape the sexual caste system.” I am fighting to dismantle caste and inequality, which is why I am fighting for Barack Obama, not Hillary Clinton.

I began with an expression of gratitude for all that you have done and continue to do for the feminist cause, and I will finish with a request. Please do not pretend to speak out on behalf of my generation of women. Please do not imply that my support for Senator Obama is suggestive of my denial of the sexual caste system. Please do not forget that my generation is a new generation: we realize that to be a feminist does not simply mean to have a right to do something, it means to use that right responsibly.

Respectfully,

Ariel Werner

Brown University, Class of 2009

Brown Students for Barack Obama GOTV Coordinator
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
marylanddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Beautifully written, right on target. Thanks for posting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt
When I was a teenager, I used to scream at my mom, "You don't understand! Things are different now!" I was grateful for all she did to raise me right, but I thought she was clueless as to the way the world worked.

Now I know better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bishop Rook Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. So if you can't or won't counter her argument...
Just say she's too young and she'll grow out of it? Is it any wonder why young people in this country are sick and damn tired of being dismissed this way, and why they're turning out in droves for the first candidate in recent history to actually respect them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #74
97. My counter to her argument
Is that EVERY young person thinks the world is completely different than the one her mother knew. That's not a lack of respect. It's just a statement of fact.

And no, I don't wonder at all that young people are infatuated by someone who tells them exactly what they want to hear. That's not new either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow! An excellent rebuttal--thoughtful and devastating. Thanks for posting, babylonsister. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. This goes right along with a post I made about post movement feminism
this girl fits right in
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes, it does.
And thank you, again, for making that post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. "I resent, Ms. Steinem, the manner in which you pit race against gender in your op-ed. "
Thank you for posting this letter. It is bookmarked.

But you know what? that's been the story the entire time, pitting race against gender. History against History. Ironically, those who claim it loudest only do so because of dismay that anyone could perceive their claims as 'lesser' when the two are pitted against one another. It's Hillary supporters who keep pulling up that 'Blacks got the vote before women'........ repeatedly, as if this were some sort of onemanshipup game against white men, with black men as the unworthy beneficiaries who dared come before (white) women. I'd chalk it up to election year nastiness, if I hadn't seen that type of 'race against gender' thinking elsewhere in Women's Studies in college. It really, really p.o.s some feminists that Blacks (always blacks, never qualified as black men) got the vote before Women (always women, never qualified as white women).

And through it all, Barack Obama is NOT campaigning on his race, but Hillary IS making her sex and a chance to be part of history the cornerstone of her race to the presidency. So what happens when race trumps gender? Anger. 'How dare that black man'. How much of the anger is against a man, and how much of it is against a black, and how much of it is anger towards a white skin privilege which is incomplete? an anger that cannot be voiced for what it is?

And that's just my thoughts on one aspect of this young woman's letter. There's a lot of food for thought within it. So it is bookmarked for later and posterity. Thank you, again, for posting it.

Please do not pretend to speak out on behalf of my generation of women. Please do not imply that my support for Senator Obama is suggestive of my denial of the sexual caste system. Please do not forget that my generation is a new generation: we realize that to be a feminist does not simply mean to have a right to do something, it means to use that right responsibly.


Outstanding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Gloria Steinem hasn't pitted race against gender/it's going to take her courage to defeat the right
wing.



I don't see this writer wanting to confront the sources of discrimination. Anota Hill is a good souce of information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
76. Steinem was active in the civil rights movement before she became
active in the feminist movement. :eyes: a little less stridency and more research would have been in order.

I really find it amazing how HARD younger women fight against their own sex.

I really love the strident "you don't speak for ME! mentality". Whatever.
Funny how they never seem to say this to any guy.

Oh, that's right, whenever a woman speaks she's speaking for everybody.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll admit that I'm not interested in what a 20yr old rich kid thinks about feminism, but I will...
welcome her to the fight.

But, to me, she's just got no legitimate standing to comment on where GS is coming from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marylanddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Huh? Um, I thought we had freedom of speech in this country...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Who said we don't? I welcomed her to the fight. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Why not?
Is this ageism or do you have some other reason?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Yes, it is some ageism - but also classism...I'll admit it. This kid has...
opportunities that I could not have dreamed of at that age. I'm glad she has them and that she wants to use them responsibly.

But her criticizing GS kind of reminds me of larded young conservatives who didn't serve in the military criticizing those who did or went after Pres. Clinton for "avoiding" the draft. You weren't there, so, as valid as your points might be - and this young woman makes some good points and it's progress she feels as she does - I just don't care to hear her go after GS.

With a degree from Brown she probably won't be steered towards secretarial work, got paid less than her male colleagues or asked about her reproductive plans when she applies for a mortgage or loan. And I'm glad she isn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. It's young people's job.
I think it's a good thing when the younger generation challenges their elders' beliefs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. When Stienem presumes to lecture young women
about who they should vote for and why then I think she invites this kind of response. But its perfectly understandable why you would take Steinem more seriously.

I think its fair to question her support of a candidate who supports war, the most violent expression of patriarchy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Clinton and Obama have very similar proposals re: the war.
And she wasn't "lecturing young women about who they should vote for." :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. Did she tell you how to vote?She told us she was voting for the Dem candidate in the general.
and supporting Clinton in the primary.

Obama is funding the war which got a lot more bloody yesterday and today. Whether you like it or not he is voting for war and buying bullets and bombs that are killing innocent civilians.

If this is your candidate, take responsibility for the blood on your hands.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #47
102. Everyone is sounding like Kucinich these days.
That isn't how this war is going to end. I can't get worked up over someone not taking a symbolic protest vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Good points.
I,too,cringe at hearing Gloria lectured to.She supports Clinton and wrote an editorial attacking the very real out of control sexism being tossed around this primary.Surely one can support Obama without disrespecting her right to her opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. Yes, she will... she just doesn't know it yet.
Secretaries and pink collar workers aren't the only ones who smash into the glass ceilings and walls -- not in college, but in the 'real' world.

Wonder what she'll say in 10 years when she realizes how naive she sounded today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. "a 20 yr old rich kid"
who shows more smarts and judgement than a seventysomething, so-called feminist.

Funny, 39 years ago, a 21 year old kid made quite a speech upbraiding her elders.

Her name? Hillary Diane Rodham.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I said a lot of what she said was valid, but she does conflate two issues ...
I think she mis-reads GS who did not suggest that sexism is worse than racism, she was just pointing out that sexism is still very widespread in a way racism is unacceptable. It's good racism is unacceptable. I turn on the TV I see a black Sec. of state, football coaches and quarterbacks, high-powered attorneys, etc. But we're still not seeing many women with profiles that high. Can someone name a high-powered female attorney? I can't. I can rattle off a list of men.

But a kid at Brown has opportunities that most young women do not have. Hence, Clinton's appeal among lower income groups. For me, it's as much about class as it is sex or race.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
68. Is Dr. Rice not a woman?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DivorcingNeo Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
88. Oh Condi doesn't count...
She's a black woman.

Tells you all you need to know about the feminist movement.

(and I say this, although I despise Condi Rice)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bishop Rook Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
77. High powered female attorney...
Hillary Clinton?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
109. In fact, in the NYT editoral, Ms Steinem does say
that sexism is worse than racism when she writes, "gender is probably the most restricting force in American life." Today, Alternet had a response from Sally Kohn, who wrote, "That's definitely false. Or, rather, a false choice. The reality is that racism and sexism are both profound and pervasive throughout our society. Ranking different forms of oppression is a ridiculous waste of time. We should be working to eradicate all forms of oppression, not deciding which one takes precedence."

In response, Ms Steinem wrote, "In all future uses of this essay, I will change the words to 'a restricting force...'" and that she believes in "uprooting" all forms of oppression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. Steinem is a "so called" feminist?
Lord have mercy on us all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Are you kidding,
yesterday someone called her, wait for it .... a sexist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. .....
:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
100. please do not call Steinem a "so-called" feminist
that's awful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
82. Just because she hasn't done what Steinem has
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 07:51 PM by knight_of_the_star
Doesn't make her incapable of rendering an opinion, or pointing out when the emperor has no clothes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
98. And Gloria Steinem's co-alumnae from Smith include Nancy Reagan and Barbara Bush

Yeah, those kids and their private colleges....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. She thinks Gloria Steinem is irresponsible?or Clinton hasn't fought for women?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. From Clinton's website-on women
Hillary's historic statement at the United Nations Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 that "women's rights are human rights" still echoes worldwide. As a lawyer, advocate, First Lady, and senator, Hillary has fought for issues important to women here at home and around the world for decades.

Today, despite the progress women have made, they earn only 77 cents for every dollar men earn -- and women of color earn even less. Hillary is leading the charge in the Senate to strengthen equal pay laws and end pay disparities between men and women. She introduced the Paycheck Fairness Act to strengthen the penalties associated with wage discrimination, to ensure that the federal government sets a higher standard, and to increase oversight of employers. Hillary has also worked to increase access to capital and other support for women-owned businesses.
When it comes to each woman's ability to make the most personal of life decisions, Hillary has stood firm as an advocate for a woman's right to choose. She has expanded access to family planning services, including for low-income women. She spoke out forcefully against the Supreme Court's April 2007 decision that -- for the first time in decades -- failed to recognize the importance of women's health.
Hillary has worked to empower women throughout the world, especially low-income women. She has advocated for access to microfinance programs that enable women to start their own businesses and spoken out strongly against the tragic practice of sex trafficking.
As president, Hillary will continue her lifelong fight to ensure that all Americans are treated with respect and dignity.

Hillary has fought the relentless and insidious efforts by far-right Republicans to limit the protections of Roe v Wade, while also working hard to expand access to family planning services.
Hillary has seen what happens when governments try to control a woman's reproductive health decisions. Whether it was Romania under a dictatorship saying you had to have children for the good of the state or China saying you had to have only one child for the good of the state, governments have dictated the most private and important decisions that we as individuals or families can make.
She has championed the Prevention First Act, which expands access to family planning services for low-income women, requires health insurance companies to cover contraception, and provides a dedicated funding stream for age-appropriate, medically accurate, comprehensive sex education.
As First Lady, she helped pass the Family and Medical Leave Act and helped found the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancies, which established and achieved a goal of reducing teen pregnancies by one-third between 1996 and 2005.
In partnership with Senator Patty Murray, Hillary waged a successful three-year battle to get the Food and Drug Administration to accept the overwhelming recommendation of the medical community and make Plan B (the "morning after" pill) available over the counter.
Hillary's work to empower low-income women has changed lives. She fought for the elimination of school fees, which prevent poor children in some countries from attending school, and for investments in health care and education for women and girls. And she helped found Vital Voices, a not-for-profit organization that continues to work to support women's leadership around the globe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. White women have made the biggest gains in earning power, over everyone
White men are static.
Black women have made some nice gains.
Black men have LOST earning power.


Black men losing earning power does NOT help the black family. Black women want equality, but this is killing us. Black women love our black men. We cannot play the same games white women can with the 'stick it to men' version of feminism (and there are different versions), because we lose in ways white women cannot and won't.

Today, despite the progress women have made, they earn only 77 cents for every dollar men earn -- and women of color earn even less. Hillary is leading the charge in the Senate to strengthen equal pay laws and end pay disparities between men and women.


Notice how 'women' is separated out from 'women of color'... for once; but 'men' is not separated out from 'men of color'.

There is a war on, and I don't like it. Black men -- Barack Obama -- is the stand in for white men, when black men don't deserve to be that stand in.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
71. Stop speaking truth to power
They don't want to hear that. White women are oppressed and victimized like no other group on this earth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #71
84. Tess, go to jack and jill. It's all laid out, what's going on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Original message
Obama doesn't even post his stand on reproductive rights or gender/wage issue on his website
He does ask for women specifically to volunteer for him.

Clinton does a long piece on her stands on reproduction rights and gender
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
67. He doesn't post his stance on reproductive rights? why not?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. I didn;t see it. Possibly he is trying to hide it from the Repubs he wants to attract.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. I didn;t see it. Possibly he is trying to hide it from the Repubs he wants to attract.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Original message
Obama doesn't even post his stand on reproductive rights or gender/wage issue on his website
He does ask for women specifically to volunteer for him.

Clinton does a long piece on her stands on reproduction rights and gender
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. That editorial was irrenspsonsible, Not to mention filled with half truths
and dinigrating the accomplishment of Sen. Obama. It was disgusting an typical Steinem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
58. You are being silly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. How? Please explain
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. I hope that Ms. Steinem
responds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. It would not be a fair fight.
The writer's premise seems to be that Hillary doesn't fight back. Ummh????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
53. I'm seeing quite a bit of divisiveness
in supporters of a supposed uniter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. I think she misses or misunderstands several things.
Steinem was not pitting race against gender. She was pointing out that gender equality still lags behind racial equality, and I think she is right.

As for black men getting the vote, the fact that voter suppression ensued does not take away from Steinem's point. Our culture was ready to allow black men to vote before it was ready to allow women to vote. If black men were considered 3/5 of a person, what were women considered? This is just evidence of the lagging-behind that we're still seeing.

And yes, Steinem's argument was about experience.

The usual anti-Clinton talking points have no credibility with me -- ("Hillary neglects to fight a sexist establishment;" "Hillary, like Queen Elizabeth;" "candidate of the machine;" "old, established".... blah blah blah). Hillary and Barack have nearly identical policy proposals. And Steinem is right: a man with Clinton's credentials, or a woman with Obama's, would be in different positions than they are now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. You get fired for making racial comments, but often a few laughs when you make sexist ones.
Sexism is still acceptable in a way that racism is not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I know a man who was fired for sexual harassment...
for making a joke behind a closed door, at a tv station here in my city.

the door was closed. she was on the other side of the door.
he's sued for sexual harassment.

there's more to the story, but it's wrong to claim that sexism is acceptable where racism is not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Watch televsion and count the derogatory remarks about women. Then do so for those about race.nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Please. Do women of color not count as women?
See, this is what I can't stand about feminists. Turn on MTV and BET and you will see the most disturbing images of Black women and HIspanic women. Are we not women?

Give me a break.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Yes -- Black women and Hispanic women are women.
Steinem is talking about black men vs. women.

So what's your point? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. You are jumping to conclusions that my statements don't make.
I've faced racism up close and personal in the racist den that South Carolina was in the early 70s.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. Just watch Fox news for 5 minutes and notice the women's wardrobes
Doesn't take but a second.... you can even turn the sound down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. It'd be nice, if blacks weren't relegated to the WB/CW
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 07:23 PM by Anouka
Omission/Invisibility is a derogatory category all its own.

Here's another, popular television division: What's the racial difference between dating shows like "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette" and "Beauty and the Geek" versus "Flavor of Love" and "I Love New York"

New York recently chose the white guy. On what white version of a staged dating game is the white woman allowed to choose the non-white man?

I saw an Asian blog, once, where Asians were taking bets on how long the token Asian-American woman was going to last on a predominantly white dating show.

Was anybody watching "Flavor of Love" convinced that the asian chick would be booted out after a pre-determined time period, however?


Also, pity the poor Asian-American man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
105. word. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Obviously there was more to the story.
This whole campaign is illustrating how sexism is accepted (or denied), even on a liberal site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. A single anecdotal example - boy that changes everything. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Mookie gave no anecdotes at all. But you agree with Mookie?
I guess this comes down to getting the studies out... but has anyone actually done a study on sexism versus racism?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. What's the purpose? They're both bad. By the way, 'MookieWilson' is the...
name of a black man.

In case you didn't know.

A gem of a human being, actually, as is his wife Rosa. They ran a charity to help young girls in Northern New Jersey because there were a lot of programs for young boys.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
55. Oh sexism is perfectly acceptable. It's misogyny which is not. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
110. For your perusal, Sparkly
if you like. A response to Ms Steinem, Ms Steinem's response, and the response to Ms Steinem's response. On Alternet: http://www.alternet.org/story/73545
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
Gloria Steinem was wrong for that editorial. Just wrong. I was seething after I read it. She's never been friendly to the plight of women of color, people who deal with both racism and sexism, unless it's convenient to white women, who do have white priviledge. I have never been a fan of hers and that editorial reminded me of why I don't support Hillary, why I wasn't moved by her crying, and why I, as a woman of color, can't ever identify with "feminism". See, because women like me were never truly considered women. Ain't I a woman?!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. "She's never been friendly to the plight of women of color"
DEAD WRONG!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. VERY true. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. You are agreeing with a lie about a fine woman. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:19 PM
Original message
I'm agreeding with the poster that the author's statement is NOT true. GS reached out...
to women of color. Very much so.

Sorry I was not clear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
64. I apologize for misunderstanding your post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Dead wrong
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. No, YOU are dead wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. No, YOU are dead wrong.
We could play this all night. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
81. damn straight!
:)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DivorcingNeo Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
89. Let's talk Planned Parenthood (for instance)
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:44 PM by DivorcingNeo
They surely have a history of prejudice, where was the feminist sister hood then?

Why don't some of you die hard Hillary and feminist lovers start telling the real truth. It almost makes me want to start a thread.

The feminist movement in America has always been about the betterment of "white women" giving little regard to the plight of black women. Who benefited the most from Affirmative Action...the White American Woman.

The statements about Black men having advantages over women longer is quite a distortion of the facts.

To this day, black men in numbers have still been disenfranchised (for various reasons) in this country. It is the BLACK woman that is succeeding (beyond the black man) and no thanks to the feminist movement. In general we have done it on our own. We have fought assault of white men, black men, everything in between and white women!

We are the invisible class in this country and still through all the shit America heaps on us, we rise.

Do you agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Amen, Tess99. Amen. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. Thank you
These people on this board are crazy. Gonna tell me, a woman of color, that I am supposed to revere Steinem when all she has done for decades is disregard women of color and claim that some white woman, stuck in her kitchen in her tony suburban home, is somehow the greatest victim of the world. Please! It makes me so angry and it is the reason most women of color do not identify with feminists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DivorcingNeo Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
90. Preach!
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:52 PM by DivorcingNeo
They are not crazy, just being disingenous. Maybe I'll start a thread and you and any other woman of color that knows the real deal can start putting a mirror on this forum to reflect the truth.

There's a lot of distortions and revisionist history going on up in here...up in here!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
62. Thank you
These people on this board are crazy. Gonna tell me, a woman of color, that I am supposed to revere Steinem when all she has done for decades is disregard women of color and claim that some white woman, stuck in her kitchen in her tony suburban home, is somehow the greatest victim of the world. Please! It makes me so angry and it is the reason most women of color do not identify with feminists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. ...never been friendly to the plight of women of color...
That is a lie. Not the first one you have posted.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. Your post doesn't ring true but try reading Steinem's book:Fifty Black Women who Changed America
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. Read it. Typical Gloria. Black women are some "other" species in that book.
Please don't try to convince this black girl that I should revere a woman who doesn't revere me in all of my womanhood simply because my skin is different from her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Like I said m your post doesn't ring true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. .
:wow:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
85. Feminists Together:Ain't I A Woman? 1851 Women's Convention Akron Ohio
Sojournor Truth knew about white and black women working together as feminists and so does Gloria Steinem and the other women of the 1970s Second Wave of Feminism We still have a long way to go Cunter Revolutionaries be Damned!

Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Convention, Akron, Ohio

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Civil Rights Act - 1964
Voting Rights Act - 1965.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
70. good catch. OP fix that!
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 07:41 PM by JVS
It would be sad for a minor error like that to make it to the end of such a nicely written text.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. I wondered
if anyone else noticed that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thurghood Marshall, A Phillip Randolph, Ralph Bunche, Walter White, Gen. Davis had "no power?"
She needs to read some history.

A black man was named to the Supreme Court before a woman was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. So a black man got to the SCOTUS? And? What is the problem with that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. You are being silly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. She thinks she's being clever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tess99 Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Silly? Because you can't answer the question either?
What is the problem with a Thurgood Marshall getting appointed before O'Connor?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
86. Tess If you are going to quote Sojourner Truth as above give that great feminist credit!
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:33 PM by terisan
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
106. Uh, there's no 'problem.' when did the white woman get there, and when will the non-white woman?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DivorcingNeo Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
93. So fucken what?
And Black women (and men in general) were still disenfranchised and mentally beaten down (on the whole) in the time being. Give me a break, will ya!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
59. Kayandore
OK..K and r...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
69. Impressive...I suspect that's not the last we'll hear of young Ariel
She's a force.

:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bishop Rook Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
79. What strikes me, in all of this...
Is that Ms. Werner was careful to express the utmost respect for Gloria Steinem, her historical importance, and the importance of the feminist cause now and in the future. She was objecting to this specific instance and this specific position taken by Ms. Steinem, not criticizing her personally.

And yet, here we are, still treating it like a boxing match...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fightindonkey Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
87. Playing The Race Card, Yet Again. Sinks Obama More and More. Keep It Coming.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. He's just shucking and jiving
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. I reread this and now I think Babylonsister for President!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
92. It's the privilege of the young to fall for one set of platitudes over another
I still reserve this right for myself, you know. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
94. Ah, youth. As a middle aged woman, I suppose I see the picture that Steinem
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 09:20 PM by indie_ana_500
paints a little more clearly.

This post points out that Af. Americans have been suppressed more than women in America, etc., etc.

I don't know why minorities like to get into a "my suppression has been worse than yours" argument with others, when they share an experience in this country. But here goes.

There is no doubt that blacks were suppressed in various ways in this country for many, many years. But to think that women were not suppressed as much is to be ignorant of history, and ignorant of the environment in which you live today.

If you review the history of women and blacks in this country, you will find that often rights were more readily given to men, regardless of race, than to women. Black men were given the vote before women, practically without even asking for it. Black men were allowed to run for political offices, go to medical schools and universities. Black men were given the Civil Rights Act (finally), where equal pay is assured legally. Women and others were later added to the CRA, I believe. Black men could own property, as well.

In actuality, blacks were not actually able to do all these things because of suppression by whites around them. But some were, and did.

Women, by contrast, were not able to legally vote until the 20th Century, and it took a lot of "suffrage" to get the vote. I think it was the 20th Century before married women could even own their own property, whether by purchase OR inheritance (your family's inheritance would have gone to your husband). Men were not too long ago allowed to murder their wives under certain circumstances. And it has only been in the last couple of decades that it became unacceptable for husbands to beat and rape their wives. This hearkens back to America's tradition of regarding wives as property. When a woman got married, she was truly dependent on her husband in every sense of the word. There was almost no way out, no matter what he might do. And he owned all the property...incl. what you inherited from your family.

I am middle aged. Some of the inequities were changed in my lifetime. I remember some of these things clearly.

In AverageTown, USA:
There were no women doctors
No women lawyers.
No women working in offices except for those unfortunate women who weren't good enough wives to keep their husbands, or they had husbands who were poor (or worse...those poor virginal spinsters).
There were no female cops or firefighters.
No female postal workers
In the military there were WACS and such, and they did pretty much the same things there that they were allowed to do in civilian life (clerical work).
Sports programs were not funded in schools for girls (only for boys).
There were no girls' basketball teams or softball leagues (there were tennis leagues, if you were rich enough to belong to a Country Club, tennis considered being feminine enough a sport).
No women judges (Justice Ginsberg could not even get an attorney job after she got her degree)
No female politicians (at least in my town)...and none in Congress.
No females in the W.H. cabinet (altho there were female secretaries of a different sort).


That was the world I grew up in. Women were housewives, or if they had a family tradition of working, or if they had to work for financial reasons, the following occupations were the ones most open to them:
Waitress or cashier, or the like
Clerical worker
Stewardess
Teacher
Nurse

That was about it. My senior trip to the high school counselor resulted in the counselor telling me, well, your grades are good enough that, if you work at it, you can become anything you want to be. Teaching is a good profession. That way, you will be home in the afternoons by the time your children get out of school. You could even be a nurse!

I didn't think I could stay thin enough to be a stewardess, so that was out, altho I looked into it. The weight restrictions were pretty strict. Stewardess training involved etiquette school to teach you how to act like a lady.

One of Steinem's points is valid. She is pointing out not so much that Obama is NOT qualified, but that if Obama were a woman, the idea of her running for the office of President of the United States would be ludicrous. And she is right.

As for suppression, the fact that Obama, a part Af. American male, is considered qualified, whereas if he were a white woman, would not be, says it all. We have come a long way, baby. But not that long. (If you don't remember "We've come a long way, baby," then ask, and I'll clue you in on that. It was a commercial.)

BTW...I support Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I hear ya indie...well said. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #94
107. don't you know it's not lady-like to point those things out? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
99. IN Jim Crow days, the word of a white woman could spell death for a black man
Look at Emmett Till, and also the cause of the Tulsa Race Riots.
Think about that, Ms Steinem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anouka Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. I don't think they want to.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 02:46 AM by Anouka
Remember, the focus is on 'those black (men) got the vote before (white) women!'..........

the role of white women beside their white men in the country's racial history isn't something a lot of people want to dig up and examine. it's buried slightly shallower than the role of women who fought *against* suffrage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #99
108. True. And then they'd take that woman out back and beat the crap out of her.
Or, under LAW, if a husband could convince the authorities that he was driven to kill his wife by passion (say, from finding her with another man), it was not a crime.

The black man could vote. The woman whose "word" they took could not until well into the 20th Century.

There was a black man in Congress in the 19th Century.

Black men got paid peanuts for hard labor. So were women...the ones who were allowed to work.

And on and on and on. For every oppression why the white male against blacks or hispanics, there is one against women of all races.

Watch the news this week and notice how women are still killed every day for no other reason than .... they are women.

It's not whether one oppressed group is oppressed more or less than another. They both were.

Steinam is right when it comes to politics, though. If Obama were female, he would not be where he is. As a female, he would probably not have been editor of the Harvard Law Review, probably not have been elected to his state senate twice, and probably not have been elected to the U.S. Senate. It is for certain that even if he had been able to do those things, the American public would not even CONSIDER him a viable presidential candidate, if he were female. That is the truth.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
101. "it means to use that right responsibly"
I think this says it all. Women now have rights, including the right to disagree with the staunch feminist guard.

Very well written.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
104. Ahh, silly young thing. Her upbringing was nothing like Hilary's, and Obama is more like Hilary tha
than she thinks. Clue: being a girl in the 1940s/50s is light-years away from being a girl in the '80/90s, and that's thanks to feminists, which history shows, a large portion of every generation of young women dismiss and disparage. In the late 1800's, towards the end of her life, Susan B. Anthony gave a speech in which she bitterly decried the younger generation of (women) "remonstrants" that had come along and decided that the women's rights movement had gone quite far enough and that they had all the rights they needed. The more things change... Hey, if this girl thinks that sexism is dead and gone, fine, that's her business, but she's kidding herself if she thinks that Obama is some new kind of politician, cut from wholly different cloth than the rest. Oh well, she'll learn. And it isn't about 'pitting sexism against racism;' the candidate should be chosen who will work against all these forms of discrimination. But then again, if you don't think that sexism exists, i guess there's no need to fight against it....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
111. Women are always on the lowest totem in virtually evey race, culture, and country.
Steinham does have that point right.

But this presidential race more than about anyone's exterior.


That's why I am voting for John Edwards, the progressive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 16th 2024, 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC