Clinton should NOT have left her name on the ballot in Michigan

And in my book, she deserves what she may get there. It was simply wrong of her to do so- and hypocritical as all get out. If she's embarassed in MI, she has no one to blame but herself. And frankly, though I don't dislike her, I hope the voters of MI turn away from her and vote undecided or Kucinich.

Good luck with that.

Or were they?

If that's true, then it is true and no hyperbole will change it.

He only remains on the ballot as a result of administrative incompetence. Sad to say. I really liked Dennis, but he's not running a serious campaign, so I can't take him seriously as a candidate anymore.

http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2007/10/kucinich_remains_on_michigan_b.html

Maybe I'll vote for him anyway, for the sole purpose of sending some delegate who thinks like me to the convention. It's not like the vote will matter in any other way. I get to decide who gets to hold up a sign and cheer on queue at the convention. Yipee. No Democratic candidates besides Dennis are campaigning here, the media is ignoring the primary on the Democratic side, and I can't vote for Edwards or Obama, just this uncommitted nonsense. They'll probably get seated, like the party leaders say, but the nomination will be long since decided by then and our state will have had zero influence in the process.

:shrug:

It does not break the agreement made to abide by DNC rules not to campaign there...which she isn't. The others took their names off to suck up to Iowa voters...had nothing to do with any compliance with the agreement they all made...

As evidenced by the fact no Democrat has removed their name from the Florida ballot...

Text of Pledge Letter

WHEREAS, over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to ensure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

THEREFORE, I , Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by the rules and regulations of the DNC. It does not include activities specifically related to raising campaign resources such as fundraising events or the hiring of fundraising staff.


Clinton and Dodd pledged not to PARTICIPATE.

Biden, Richardson, Edwards, Obama and Kucinich filed paperwork
to have their names removed from the ballot in order to not
participate in the primary.

Clinton and the other DLC candidate, Dodd did not.

They understood what the definition of "participate" is.

WTF?

Guess it DOES boil down to what your definition of "is" is.

What an empty victory this will be for Clinton.

VOTE UNCOMMITTED!!!!

i think that she and DK deserve credit for sound respectful judgement.

Why do the voters in Michigan have such a limited choice?

Our legislature and congressional delegation decided to play
chicken with the National Party.

They lost.

While they were at it, the DLC Governor and 1/2 of the Congressional peeps
realized that if they hung tough and kept to the early date in violation
of party rules, it could appear as if Hillary was riding a tidal wave of
support.

Unfortunately she got derailed in Iowa and scrutiny has been applied.

Clinton did it for political gain.

Stick the the party and the rules, we'll stick by the people. Good luck trying to get it back out. :rofl:

Or is this changing the subject but once again?

And those of us who are active PCs, volunteers and activists don't appreciate it. The rules are not arbitrarily handed down by Howard Dean, they are voted on by DNC members from all over the country, with input from state committeepeople. If you don't like a certain rule you are more than welcome to get involved in the process but don't tell me its okay for 2 candidates to flagrantly disrespect their fellow Democrats from 49 other states like that.

My father is one of the founders of the UAW and my family has been it it ever since. Want to guess where that started and who they mostly represent?

A particular state's current situation is highly irrelevant to the need to follow the rules that are set by the party. Michigan should have made its case better to the Democrats in every other state if it wanted to move its primary up. Right now Michigan is trying to circumvent the process by flagrantly disregarding the rules, and 2 candidates (including one frontrunner) have shown themselves to be so disrespectful of the Democrats in every other state as to put their names on the ballot there. It's not a reason that I would exclude either of them from consideration for voting, but it's a shitty thing for them to do.

It's a shitty thing for a candidate or his supporters think otherwise.

Incredibly arrogant too. But that's Hillary Clinton and Dennis Kucinich to a tee.

But hey thats how you want to play, go for it!

Let anarchy and chaos reign! Power to the people! There's a winning strategy for the Democratic party. :eyes:

Then all the people will be heard. I'm fine with that what about you?

Neither would her husband. Obviously you have no idea of the organization and work it takes to get candidates elected.

Besides if the people really did pick candidates whose values reflected theirs, Dennis Kucinich would be far ahead of the lot of them. Poll after poll shows more people (of all political stripes) agree with him on the majority of issues than anyone else.

Have a answer yet?

Precisely how does Clinton and Kucinich staying on the ballot help the people of that troubled state, especially since the delegates won't be seated and the Convention? I can't figure out how that would lead to a direct improvement to the the economic climate there.

I haven't heard of a single one.

This is a bullshit thread only for disinformation. I posted this in another thread yesterday "Obamas biggest problem and this goes for his supporters as well, I don't see substance on Obamas policy ideas, your damn sure not seeing it in GDP. If I have missed any though please supply a link and I will be more than happy to look at it." not one response. I wonder why?

Michigan and Florida chose to disregard it and move theirs up. As a result the DNC (a body of elected representatives from every state) stripped them of their delegates and extracted a promise from Pres. candidates that they wouldn't campaign in those states. The primary dates were set by a democratic process, as was the decision to punish FL and MI.

If you're not familiar with how the Democratic party works read the national bylaws and those of your state.

The candidates vowed not to campaign there, as did Hillary. The rest took their name off the ballot, which was not required. Clinton did not. Again, which rules were broken?

By placing their names on the ballots, Kucinich and Clinton are signaling their approval of violating democratically decided party rules.


Keep spinning, Clinton people.

You still have not answered which rules Hillary broke and we all know why, she didn't break any.

...they don't know what the rules are. They just want to bitch about sumpin! No substance to the bitchin, just bitchin.

Check out what I wrote in Post 34. Another post unanswered.

I've been gettin the same stuff for days now. Some people just want to argue when they don't have a clue what they are talking about. I went thru the same kinda crap with the NH recount threads.

Try getting involved and finding out.

Since you seem to be in the know, why not just answer the question?

If you don't like, run to be a DNC Committeeperson. The elections are coming up.

It didn't go to a vote of the people.

It was legislated.

The PEOPLE didn't want it.

and it was unnecessary.

The states are not required to meet the requirements of any party. Heck, iirc, FL has a Republican legislature, so you can hardly expect them to go along with the Democratic party wants. If anything, they are absolutely loving the fact that the people of Florida are feeling abandoned by the Democrats. You think they won't use that in November if we end up not seating the FL delegation?

It was stupid for the DNC to enact a rule they KNEW they couldn't enforce, and that will essentially disenfranchise the voters of whole states if they try. They boxed themselves into a lose/lose situation.

It would open your eyes to much that you do not know.

He tried to do it. And you know about this.

Or was it politics 101? The biggest disservicice you did to yourself was announcing who your candidate is. I now know to actually read into what you post.

I've defended Clinton endlessly here against the bullshit that's been thrown at her. And you know it. I made no mistake announcing my support for a candidate and considering your support for Clinton, where the fuck do you get off?

I get off in my bed where do you get off?

and tell me what this devious agenda might be.

Trashing any & all who do not worship as the same political altar as you.

Pretty clearcut & simple, in spite of the obvious attempts at *defending* those you trash.

They have lost so many jobs, and have the highest foreclosures in the country. Many who have owned their homes for 20 plus years are losing them because they have lost their jobs.

and made a procedural error that resulted in his name being left on. Michigan, Like FL, voted for the primary schedule and then decided to screw the DNC and the party.

Despite an announcement on the presidential campaign website for Dennis Kucinich stating that an affidavit for withdrawal had been filed with the Michigan Secretary of State's office shortly before deadline yesterday, officials in Michigan indicated that, at this time, the Ohio Congressman will remain on the Democratic primary ballot.

"Michigan law clearly outlines the procedure to be followed if a candidate wishes not to appear on the ballot," explained Ken Silfven, a spokesman for the office. "An affidavit has to be signed by the candidate and notarized. The first affidavit received by our office was signed by the Kucinich campaign manager. While the second affidavit received in our office did contain the candidate's signature, it was not notarized."

Silfven said the first affidavit was time-stamped by his office at 3:02 p.m. -- roughly an hour prior to the filing deadline.

"At that point our office contacted the campaign and explained the procedure and why the document was not acceptable," he said.

The second affidavit was time-stamped at 3:38 p.m.

Silfven added that Kucinich will appear on the state's Democratic primary ballot. The only way the candidate could be removed is through litigation, he said.

Attempts to contact the campaign both yesterday and this morning have been unsuccessful.

Four of the Democratic presidential hopefuls -- Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards -- have successfully filed affidavits with the Michigan Secretary of State. They will not appear on the state's primary ballot.

New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd and former Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel took no action to have their names removed.

The controversy stems from Michigan's refusal to follow the nomination calendar set over a year ago by the Democratic National Committee. That calendar allowed four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to operate outside a set window of primary and caucus activity. All other states were placed behind a start date of Feb. 5, 2008 -- a date now claimed by more than 20 states for their contests.

The Michigan legislature decided the state would move beyond the Feb. 5 start date and hold its contest on Jan. 15, 2008. Florida has also moved outside of the calendar window and was subsequently sanctioned by the DNC's rules committee for doing so. That committee has yet to meet on the topic of Michigan's move, but many expect the same sort of disciplinary actions -- a refusal to seat delegates at the National Convention -- to be taken against the Wolverine State.

All of the Democratic presidential hopefuls except for Mike Gravel signed a pledge with the four early states indicating that they would not campaign, advertise or otherwise participate in contests that violated the DNC rules. While the pledges were more of a gentleman's handshake than a binding contract, many are crying foul on Clinton and Dodd for remaining in the Michigan contest.

Link: http://www.essentialestrogen.com/2007/10/kucinich_campaign_misses_deadl.html

It's the only explanation for this attitude.

Either that or Clinton and her supporters are
truly ethically challenged.

They argue as if they really don't have a problem
supporting a person who doesn't have the
integrity to honor a pledge that her peers are
OBVIOUSLY honoring.

:crazy:

I'm IN Michigan, and I'm beginning to hope that
out delegates DON'T get seated. I'm not happy
with Kucinich openly campaigning here, either.

After messing up one ballot with a write-in which we weren't told we couldn't do, we now have two new ballots. We will be voting Hillary because she had enough guts to not pull out.

I can remember many years ago my sister-in-law and I both knowing that we would reach the point one day that Hillary would run for president. I was being a "waffler"there for a while but now that I have really paid attention I know that this is the person I want to represent me. She will also be getting votes from my brother and sister-in-law in Minnesota. They all add up.

But we both decided the rules were unfair and we were
not going to participate.

I removed my name from the running.

You leave yours on, and WIN months later!

OH MY! You didn't MEAN to win.

You suck!

Go ahead and vote for Hillary.

You deserve her.

If you can't see what is happening in Michigan,
you are ethically challenged.

Dean's request to withdraw from Michigan and Florida when those states moved up their primaries in violation of party rules.

Hillary could well be politially smarter to ignore the party's request, portray herself as a champion of the voters of the two states, and reap some benefit in terms of momentum, if not actual delegates. Something tells me that if Obama had stayed on the Michigan ballot and Hillary and withdrawn, the supporters of the two here would be making the case that the other is making now.

I don't see her being punished by voters for it much, though. Probably most people in Michigan are unaware of Democratic party protocol.

So disregarding them, the way Clinton and Kucinich did, is just like crossing the picket line after the union has voted to strike. They aren't defying DNC leaders, they're saying 'screw you' to their fellow Democrats.

They didn't!

The only requirement was that candidates were not to campaign in Michigan or Florida. (Primary election only)

Give it up - you are wrong.

Try to familiarize yourself with the way the party works before you spout off. It's a democratic body and Clinton and Kucinich violated a decision they made by placing their names on the Michigan and Florida ballots.

...I'm gonna giggle my ass off if she loses to "uncommitted"....

I miss Pryor. A good family movie....even with the 'jungle bunny' hurtfulness at the end.

I hope 'uncommitted' in a landslide; unfortunately, humans don't really operate that way do they? particularly if her name is on top, so folks may feel a psychological desire to choose her name anyway? i don't know.

but we'll see. and yes, I hope for 'uncommitted', too -- mostly because that was wrong of her to remain on the ballot in the first place. Michigan broke the rules, and she wanted them to, for herself. That's not honorable.

The others who took their names off, that was honorable.

COuld be wrong, but thats what I remember reading.

Are we just Hillary bashing anyway we can here?

Are we just bashing Hillary anyway we can here?

If Obama's name is on the ballot in FL, why is Clinton being attacked for having her's on the ballot in Michigan? Hyprocrisy?

To get your name removed from the Florida ballot, you'd have
to drop out of the entire RACE.

That's why names are still on the ballot in Florida.


Clinton is being "attacked" for being a hypocrite
because she IS one.

The other serious contenders are not participating
in the Michigan primary, as they PLEDGED not to do.

It's a shame that FL and MI won't get a say. I'm so pissed off about that.

which is really weird since it was their CHOICE to break the rules.

I keep this handy when people blame the DNC.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Bill Nelson is glad he cost all of us money by suing the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1750

On all counts.

The people of every state have a right to have a say in who the nominee is, regardless of party rules about which states go first. I think it was unfair for the DNC to strip Michigan of it's delegates.

On the other hand, the biggest losers are the rank and file Democrats in Michigan who are being dissed by the DNC AND by candidates who foolishly removed their names.

Who really gives a shit if they get seated in the fall at the convention? The nomination will have been long since decided with no real input from MI.

It's kind of ironic that the rationale that the state party leaders give now is that we should vote because the delegates will still be seated. The whole argument for jumping was that the delegates didn't matter and the attention/influence did. That would have been true if the candidates had campaigned here anyway instead of signing these pledges in Iowa to not campaign here. So there is no campaign, no media attention, and hence no influence on the nomination for MI.

So I will leave you with thins link to ponder. http://www.wkyc.com/news/rss_article.aspx?ref=RSS&storyid=81160

to help him win in Michigan and defeat McCain as a strategy move to keep the repub race in chaos

even knowing it is a "strategery" and not an endorsement of Romney, I think I'd rather have a dead skunk tied to my neck than cast a vote for "Oily". He makes my skin crawl. I guess that's the point. hehe

The embarrassment would be significant if she lost or wins by less than 10 points.

...of the Michigan primary.

The presidency is for all the people. Not just the Democratic Party Machine in Michigan.

Hillary did the right thing by staying on the ballot. Being on the ballot is what an election is all about. The others made a stupid blunder. They could have made a statement and stayed, they didn't.

Hillary was right.

Dennis of course could not see that his paperwork would be correctly done and submitted...what an awful president he would have made.

in states that violated party rules.

Hillary and Dodd decided it was OK to ignore
their promise and stay on the ballot.

Spin it however you want.

but right for Kucinich to do so?

His office screwed up the paperwork and didn't
get the notarized copy in by the deadline.