The torture issue

The US has lost it's position as the good guy in the white hat with the revelations of secret renditions and torture (er, I meant "Harsh interrogation techniques")

In the mind of the average voter, is torture:

A) A great idea that should be practiced on most Muslims
B) Not an issue that really impacts my job/home/business
C) A practice we need to stop in order to begin to restore our world standing
D) A morally repugnant practice that has brought shame to our nation


Here's where I'm going. I think most Obama & Clinton voters are in C & D thinking. I think most Indys and Reps are somewhere between A & B. How do we campaign against torture, while not appearing weak and naive with the respect to terrorists who have shown no compunction to kill, maim, and torture?

The average voter doesn't understand that the vast majority of torture, and perhaps all of it, including that practiced by the Bush administration, provides little or no intelligence value for us, and what little it does provide is greatly outweighed by all the negatives, including serving as an impetus for the recruitment of more anti-American terrorists.

Here is an article I posted a few months ago on it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1156927

The average voter needs to be educated on the facts. I think that all of the Democratic candidates did a fine job in the debates on this issue when Tim Russert tried to bait them into condoning torture.

Welcome to DU OmahaBlueDog :toast:

I'll check out the article.

I've read many of the Steven AMbrose books on WWII (Citizen Soldiers, Band of Brothers, The Wild Blue). He makes two really good points about torture.

1) The threat of torture makes opposing forces far less likely to surrender; conversely, the knowledge that your opponent takes decent care of prisoners makes surrender more likely in a tough fight.

2) Torture gets you whatever the victim thinks you want to hear or whatever he can convince you is the truth. We all love the ticking bomb theory, but it's rarely the case.

And here's some more:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2365737

perhaps torture will be embraced by the Democratic convention in Denver, depending as to whether Bill returns to the White House or not.

was that in response to the Contract with America? what was the story of that? what happened?

... since they trace their origins to their parent organization, the OSS, and President FDR, who also sanctioned "harsh interrogation techniques" "secret courts" and other pleasantries.

Nice try, though.

While we're in the mile high city, discussing whatever it is we Dems discuss, you Greens can amuse yourselves in whatever high school auditorium you rent for your convention. You all can discuss the good ol' days when Ralphie boy stood up to Al Gore and kept him outta da White House! You Greens have to be proud of that moment ;-)

Insulting people who care about labor, environmental, and other issues is not cool. Despite the labels being recycled, both the major parties were considered "fringe" by someone at some point, and their positions have changed dramatically over time. In a presidential rather than parliamentary system, 3rd parties don't have as much pull, but if that's what it takes for voices to be heard, that's what it takes. I suppose you're also on the Kucinich-and-Gravel-should-shut-up wagon. And you take having money to rent a big convention hall as evidence of quality? Great.

I lived in a guaranteed Democratic state in 2000. I voted Green to help the state party get enough support for public financing etc. and as a protest against Lieberman being on the ticket and the ineptitude of that state Dem. party at the time. If I lived in Florida, no I wouldn't have. But voting for L. would have been hard.

Blaming the Greens makes the GOP happy. Blame Bush Sr.'s supreme court appointments, Katherine Harris et al. in Florida, Gore for not winning Tennessee, Gore for stifling his real passions, what have you, but blaming it all on Nader is the easy way out.

You can't handle the truth! Greens, we live in a world that has Republicans, and those Republicans have to be opposed by people with at least a snowballs chance in Hell of being elected. Who's gonna do it? You? You, JoeIsOneOfUs? Democrats have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Ralph Nader, and you curse Katherine Harris. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know - that Ralph Nader's candidacy, while tragic, probably cost Al Gore the Presidency; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves us from more Sam Alitos and John Roberts'. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want the Democtats elected -- you need the Democrats elected. We use words like "Change," "Fairness," "Universal Healthcare." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to Greens who rise and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom that Democrats provide and then questions the manner in which they provide it. I would rather the Greens just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you start a petition and run for office. Either way, I don't give a damn who you think I shouldn't insult!

By the way, check out a wonderful web page: http://2act.org/p/33.html It'll give you the facts on Florida.

.. and I might have jumped on the Kucinich-and-Gravel-should-shut-up wagon, if even 1% of America gave a rats behind about a word they said.

I wonder what one's opinion of law enforcement and/or the military would have to do with how one feels about torture?

Also, how closely one empathizes that one could be on the receiving end of such tactics?

McCain is a Republican, but as a victim of real torture, he's as Anti-Torture as they come.

sanctioned torture. I would need solid documentation of such a charge. However, having experienced the sociopathic W, I feel certain that he would have no compunction about torturing his next door neighbor....unless of course that neighbor happened to be Dick Cheney, who would have W on the rack at a moment's notice in retribution. If I see W and Cheney when I enter the next life, I will know immediately that I have been sent to the darkest corner of Hades. Seeing them here on Earth is already hell.