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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:38 AM
Original message
No matter how Obama supporters try to spin this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN30M6StFfk


He can no longer claim the mantle of being against the Iraq War, because he admits that he does not know how he would have voted if in the senate, and then he keeps voting to fund the war!


Please kick and recommend this thread so as many people as possible will see him in action. Because everytime its posted it sinks like a rock, because it goes right to the heart of his campaign and there is no reasonable person who can't see his flip flop.


It's fair game to question and form conclusions regarding this.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely true. But they cannot see the truth...
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. 'I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... What would I have done? I don't know,'
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. why do you people always skip the very next line?
What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. And Hillary is the most war-friendly dem candidate running
no matter how you try to spin it.
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fightindonkey Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Keep Saying That To Try And Make Yourself Believe It.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. You convinced me. Hillary is the Princess of Peace, she doesn't triangulate,
and she has nothing to do with the DLC! Go Hillary!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. backs up against the wall
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. OMG, you cut off his full quote AGAIN
How do you live with yourself? Seriously. I do not understand how people do this. These are flat out lies about WAR.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. His whole quote makes it worse. Get out from under the covers. Plus this
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 11:43 AM by MassDemm
is a different interview.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. From his vantage, the war was unnecessary??
How is that worse?
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hillary was staunchly pro war and remains so.
The choice is clear.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:42 AM
Original message
It Hillary wants to make this a pro-war anti-war issue, she will lose.
Badly
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
59. Hillary was NOT pro war. Here is what she said:
My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

*******
............ A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. He clearly can. Everyone who cares about simple decent truth
can read his entire quote and knows damn well that he was being diplomatic about Kerry and Edwardss. Period. Anyone who wants to indulge in the worst kind of revisionism will agree with your fantasy narrative.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That makes it worse not better! lol
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. lol, did you watch that clip?
You just helped him.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Oh god, Obamites are really hopeful.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Tell me: how did Hillary vote in the Senate concerning invading Iraq.
I'd suggest you follow a different path.

Hillary was and IS pro-Iraq war. Period.

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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Really, That's not surpising coming from a pro-war Dem such as yourself.
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fightindonkey Donating Member (674 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Uh, The War For Afghanistan.Love How This Isn't Bush's Fault.Doctored Intelligence Is Their Fault
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. We're past the intelligence. Hillary is pro-war.
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 11:56 AM by Bleachers7
And it's the single biggest issue of the race. There's no way her supporters can say they don't care about it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. After that, he repeated what they keep cutting off
They cut off his comments where he says they cut keep cutting off what his whole remarks in 2004. They just did it again.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The rest of the comments, I think you are referring to do nothing
to mitigate the fact that he said he did not know how he would have voted.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:52 AM
Original message
He said he didn't see justification
from his vantage, that's what he said. He simply offered cover for the candidates and the stupid Clintons.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
29. how sad, you are falling for it. He said he did not know how he would vote
any reason he gives for saying that is pure bullshit.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. You can't see it, can you? It is a terrible excuse to make on such an important issue.
it smells of complete and utter bullshit.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. K & R
I am NOT against Obama. This IS the truth about Obama.

What we need more than anything else is Honesty. That is the starting point from which everything else MUST begin to unfold.

There is no Hope without Honesty.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. "There is no Hope without Honesty."
Beautifully said.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. can you honestly say
what you would have done in someone elses position?

Asking me what I would have done - if I was being completely honest, I'd have to say I don't know.- any other answer is a lie.

We CAN'T know what we 'might' have done with any certianty- we can guess, we can "like to think" we know- but we can never truly know.

Let's start with ourselves on the honesty bit-

Not meant as a 'dis' to you- but rather as a caution- to myself as well.

peace
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well, he has held the mantle saying he was against the war from the beginning
but if you put this into context of how he has handled himself as a senator you can see it is a pattern.

He only wants to be on record when he thinks it is politically advantageous.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. He isn't lying MassDemm- and nothing in this
entire thread can demonstrate a lie about where he stood at the beginning and still stands.

We aren't talking about anything other than his stand on our pre-emptive war against the nation of Iraq.

He was against it when it was not the "P.C." or 'safe' position to take, and continues to believe his stand was the correct one.

You may have very legimate reasons not to want to give your support to Obama, but using this incident to try to defend Clinton or undermine others respect for Obama, isn't being very honest.... as I understand honesty and integrety to be.

and I DO wish you, and us all,
peace
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Sorry Blue, I cannot agree with you
These is exactly the type of issue that needs to be vetted before anyone goes into a general election.

He says he does not know what you would have done, if in their shoes, basically.

Then he says he said it because he didn't want to hurt Kerry or Edwards?

It makes absolutely no sense except that he probably does not know how he would have voted and that was the truthful moment. He cannot have it both ways and it shows what a true politician he is, not really one for change.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Hey, it's ok- you
don't have to agree with me.

And I don't hate you for your stand, nor do I think I'm the "superior" one.

Clearly, you see things from your perspective and I do mine.

Now, if I ...was you, maybe I'd still hold my own perspective, but we'll never know. Because I can only speculate.

everyone sees things in their own way-
peace-
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. .
:pals:
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
58. Exactly
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. No spin needed. It is EXACTLY what he has said.
On the eve of the convention, he didn't want to shoot holes in other Dem's boats.

But you already knew that, didn't you.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Obama supports other Democrats. How shocking!
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. For not undermining the Dem nominee, the Democratic establishment
attacks him for being "political."

That's real nice. I suspect people won't soon forget such back-stabbing chicanery.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. Its pretty obvious when read in context that he was trying to help the party nominee.
There's no need for Obama supporters to spin. Its a lame, desperate attack.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Oh atleast you admit he isn't above political expediency over such an important issue. I read much
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 11:49 AM by MassDemm
more into it than that.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. I suspect you'll read something into what Obama orders for lunch.
For less bitterly partisan people they see that Obama is a team player who supporters other Democrats.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. and you must be one of his shining examples.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. Unbelievable
Such team players, these Clintonites.

A guy does the right thing by downplaying (not lying about) his position because it might hurt the chances of the Democrat running for President. His reward for not aggrandizing himself at the cost of the Party's nominee? Get it thrown back in his face as a lie and mere "political expediency" by the establishment of his own Party, no doubt the same people who pleaded with him to do it in the first place!

If that's the kind of people you want leading your Party and country, I'll leave you to it. Where I come from, that's some cold and backstabbing shit.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Context isn't important. Truth isn't important.
All that matters is helpiing your candidate and nalling all others to the cross. If that ends up getting us another GOP President, so be it.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. yes, all candidates engage in Party Politics.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Nothing brings out latent GOP voters than attacking Obama
How else can you explain their aversion to logic and honest discussion? Do they realize how much like Freepers they sound?
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. I would love to hear what he said after the clip was cut off... He could
have said anything but we'll never know what. So what's the point of posting this clip?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
41. The difference between Obama and the others on the war is not right vs. wrong
it is barely tolerable vs unacceptable.

Voting for the lesser evil is what it's about and Obama's opponents are more complicit in the war.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. even though he voted to fund the war every time? nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Hence "Barely tolerable". Did the person in your avatar do any better?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. no but atleast she does vote and has a record. he doesn't.
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 12:17 PM by MassDemm
except the one he tries to get you to believe for political expediency
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Her record sucks
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. his is just about even with her, except he won't make the hard decisions. nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. the hard decision to goose-step along with bush. Way to go Hillary!
Obama 0
Hillary -1
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Deleted post. I misread your post and appended a harsh response.
Edited on Sun Jan-13-08 01:40 PM by Kahuna
Sorry.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. Well, he never voted to fund the war so that's one place you are wrong.
I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your informed post.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. It doesn't matter if it's RIGHT...
...It only matters that you SAY it.

We're acting like Republicans now, didn't you get the memo?
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
55. k/r
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
56. ...Obama stood up for the party's candidates in 2004.
No matter how Obama supporters try to spin this.......Obama stood up for the party's candidates in 2004.

That's the correct interpretation of Obama's statement.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
57. Kick and recommend for Obama~~~The Mathew Lesko...
...of politics!!!
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
61. It's reasonable to say that they've all made mistakes regarding
their stances and statements on the war.

Of those, Clinton's has the unfortunate combination of the being the most egregious and least apologized for.

This is not really a debate a Clinton supporter wants to have, because the facts won't allow you to win.

It also goes to why Clinton can't give an honest answer on the question.

Also, don't forget her yes vote on Kyl Lieberman.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
62. I'm supporting Edwards and I think this criticism is silly
All it shows is that Obama was trying not to give the bush campaign a sound bite against Kerry.

It is likely that part of this attempt at diplomacy was because he is a loyal Democrat, and part of it is because Obama is politically ambitious and was making the most of his opportunity to give a speech at the convention.

So, did he soften his past rhetoric because he is politically ambitious? Probably. But so? It is no surprise that he is politically ambitious. He is running for president! They are all politically ambitious.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
63. Bizarro World!
A fascinating study:

Hillary acolytes bashing Obama for his ProWAR position.

Roseanne Barr criticizing someone for being overweight?



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.



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