Wait - why is Dennis Kucinich still on the Michigan ballot?

Why did he do that?

Why would you think I would call him that?

and we love him. It is an affectionate nickname. I think he messed up the paperwork to take hinm off the ballot and it was not done in time. He meant to do it from what I have read.

The blessed Virgin appeared to the registrar of voters in Lansing and indicated that God has chosen Kucinich for a special mission.

Or do you only bash liberals?

Fuck Al From!

I am just asking a question.

to remove their names from the ballot.

But ALL the candidates pledged not to campaign there. Kucinich broke that pledge.

Or is she going to take this fight to the convention floor to get her delegates from Florida and Michigan?

She's endorsed Hillary, too.

Obama & Edwards both signed a pledge! I've heard and read it a dozen times today.

Really.

"really."

Clinton didn't try to remove her name.

Kucinich did try, and did it so poorly he failed.

so why did hillary and gravel want to keep their names on the ballot?

the others did so to pander to Iowa and New Hampshire. I guess Clinton, Gravel and Dodd didn't feel they had to.

Which she hasn't. The others removed their names because of Iowa and NH.

by 'objecting' to breaking the rules and moving the date up and then keeping her name on the ballot so she can get some hollow news spins is a good thing do you?

all of the candidates objected to the state democratic party trying to jump the line and get an early primary and that is why all of the delegates were stripped. Clinton objected to that along with all of the other candidates. Everyone else took their name off. You excorciated Kucinich for not being able to effect the change, but atleast he tried. Clinton left her name on so that she can get a cheap headline - so much for solidarity for the agreed upon rules.

when did Hillary Clinton break a promise?

I'll save you the time - she didn't.

When did you brush your teeth? I never said she broke her promise. I was simply laughing at your assertion that by not showing solidarity with the all of the other candidates in enforcing the rule by not participating in Michigan is somehow more admirable than Kucinichs glitch in not getting his name off.

However since you bring it up simply having your name on the ballot is a form of campaigning and Hillary did promise she would not campaign. It is not a major point, I would normally not have considered it worth a post but since you are trying to make the case that she didn't break any promise in fact she did.

You are another Clinton Convert right? Her supporters will beat those votes from you... She's inevitable!!! resistance is futile.

now I hope Obama and Edwards stay in to the convention and its anybody but Hillary.

Or are only liberals incompetent in your book?

Clinton didn't try to remove her name. Kucinich did try, but failed.

There was no requirement to do so at all.

Kucinich pledged NOT to campaign in Michigan, and did. But I would never call him a creep for doing so.

To make it a fair (read 'Democratic') fight

Because the party didn't want Michigan to move up their primary (for very good reasons)

Because the voters of MI are being disenfranchized?

Take your pick.

she agreed not to campaign there. That was the extent of her obligation, and she upheld it.

Kucinich pledged not to campaign there and broke that promise.

How DARE you claim that Clinton is dirtier here than Kucinich? She did exactly what she promised to do. Kucinich did not.

his campaigning there could only be construed as being a larger part of working towards actually enlightening people as to the trouble we are in in this country.

Hillary, on the other hand, must see it purely as a way to pick up uncontested delegates. THAT is dirty and I have a big problem with it.

only the fact that he's not going to win.

I find the so-called and well-touted morality of Kucinich a bit suspect.

"She had no obligation to do so"?

There was no obligation, morally, legally, politically, to do so.

Those who DID remove their names weren't obligated to do so - they were pandering to Iowa and New Hampshire. But when they pander, it's moral. If Hillary DOESN'T pander, it's evil.

And I'm dissapointed to see you cooperating with the likes of this OP.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/bryantpark/2007/10/clinton_stays_in_michigan_prim_1.html

Clinton Stays in Michigan Primary

Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich joined four other Democratic contenders in dropping out of the party's Michigan primary. National Democratic leadership weren't happy that the state had bumped its primary up to Jan. 15, ahead of traditional early-goers Iowa and New Hampshire. Yesterday was the deadline for taking your name off the ballot—Kucinich was joined in doing that by Barack Obama, John Edwards, Bill Richardson, and Joe Biden.

New York Sen. Hillary Clinton stayed in, along with Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd. From the Boston Globe:

The decisions serve political purposes for many of the candidates. Clinton, who has been well ahead in the polls in Michigan, may end up with a strong showing that gives momentum to her campaign, even if the DNC follows through on its threat to refuse to seat convention delegates.

The other candidates, meanwhile, can avoid the potential embarrassment of a poor showing in Michigan, while appeasing officials from New Hampshire and Iowa who are angry about Michigan's move to mid-January.

Kucinich tried to remove his name, and bungled the paperwork. It's true.

It's also true that Kucinich broke his pledge not to campaign in Michigan.

You could have characterized it in a number of ways. You are a smart man and you chose the word "incompetent".

It is spin and I think it sucks. So I said so. I'll forget about it after the primaries, but I think it is beneath you.

he TRIED and filed the wrong paperwork, and was unable to get the correct paperwork filed in time.

Are you serious?

You're supposed to imagine a national presidential candidate with the ability to take care of day-to-day paperwork.

He got excluded from a debate, too, because he didn't get the paperwork in on time.

You can love him all you want, but he's not an organizational mastermind.

All I'm saying is, there are many more important things to look at.

Kucinich would not allow the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis at our hands either. So if it is "incompetence" vs. what I see as a kind of moral bankruptcy, I will take the incompetence.

your side never wins anything. You value some perceived moral superiority over pragmatism.

And why isn't Kucinich morally bankrupt for violating his pledge not to campaign in Michigan, but Hillary is because she didn't remove her name, even though she was under no obligation to do so?

First of all, Dennis is not my candidate because I AM more pragmatic than that, ok?

The fact that I defend him as a moral person and condemn Hil for her moral failings is called having a moral compass. It doesn't make me anybody's fool thank you very much.

you've been playing ethical jujitsu throughout this thread. You attack Clinton for not withdrawing her name, when she had no obligation to do so. But all the candidates SIGNED a pledge not to campaign there, but Kucinich violated that, but that's OK.

You get mad that I called Kucinich incompetent, but you called Clinton immoral, a creep and shit. And YOU'RE pissed at me over it.

You think Kucinich gets the lion share of opprobrium here? Try pretending to be a Clinton supporter for ONE fucking day and view this forum and pick out the lies, the slanders, the innuendos, the stupid bullshit attacks.

Kucinich tried, and failed, to file simple paperwork, and for that I called him incompetent, and that's somehow over the line. But today, at least two people here insinutated that the Clintons would murder John Edwards if he did well in S.C. and those posts were allowed to stand.

This whole fucking site is bullshit.

I'm sorry, Sean, this place is driving me up the wall and you chose to post on the thread of an OP that I hate above almost all. THAT is what really drove me nuts. This fucking OP.

The OP's that is.

had there not been an influx of knee-jerk denials of OP's barely-veiled point.

Is To Reveal Your Past Screen Names.
I'll go first:

Moochy.

I changed it because I realized people thought I was from California.

Occam Bandage.

They get in your guts and thrive in shit.

the monkeys mask is slipping

on it.

He knows where he stands on the issues though. He didn't flip flop on stage about drivers licences for undocumented workers, he didn't vote to make war on Iraq, Iran and everywhere else the neoliberals and conservatives want to make war.

Yeah, his guy didn't get the paperwork in the way the SOS wanted it, but he didn't trust Condi to tell him how to vote, either.

And Hill's "friends" come off as such constant unrelenting pricks that I won't vote for her. Ever. No matter what.

I'm sure they will blame me for that, because that's how they operate. FucK the DLC. They are as bad as the repos. They are scum. I don't vote for scum.

it takes one competent clerk.

what it takes to take your name off the Michigan ballot?

You apparently also know what the alledged error in the paperwork was?

Look. Hillary couldn't find her billing records for how many years until they turned up on some table stand? Because she's competent?

You want to talk shit, let's talk shit.

He forgot to sign off on the document, and tried to send a separate signature.

He didn't "forget" anything. His campaign manager, representing him, faxed in the paperwork. He later sent verification that the campaign manager was authorized to act on his behalf.

I posted the factual account exactly so we wouldn't have DUers trying to reinterpret what happened.

He then, half an hour later, sent a signature separately. And this was all done with less than an hour until the deadline.

I believe he forgot. It is possible this was willfully done.

a notarized letter with his signature on it. He was given over 3 weeks to do so.

He faxed a letter with his campaign manager's signature on it.

Yes, I am capable of mailing a notarized letter. I even know how to send it certified mail. Overnight if I'm feeling frisky.

And I'm not even ONE lawyer. Hell, I'm not even a competent clerk!


Edit: And even if he didn't know how, the helpful people down at the post office can help.

Since he sent a separate signature a half-hour later, it's pretty obvious this was a slapped-together rush job. Had he been more on-the-ball, he would have been able to try again the next day--or even later that same day.

right before the deadline.

Or was that Hill?

Shit, I just can't keep all this politician incompetence straight.

Can't they keep track of their paper work?

If a campaign sets the very modest goal of filling out paperwork to get off a ballot, and if it (despite trying) is unable to accomplish this goal, I would call that incompetence.

of the same type of incompetence that made me decide I couldn't support him, he mishandled the paperwork and missed the deadline to properly file.

Candidate don't fill out the paperwork on their own for these things. And a minor mistake in filling out the form was probably just a pretext for some Dennis-hater in the Michigan Democratic Party HQ to embarass him.

Dennis doesn't deserve to get bashed for something this minor.

I guess the posters ridiculing him are comfortable with the fact that you have to raise a billion fucking dollars from big corporations in order to "play the game" right.

Do they only accept engraved platinum tablets?

a creep and shit, and I called yours incompetent, and YOU'RE pissy with ME?

forgot to show up at the inauguration?

if you have a thousand lawyers working for you and use them to suppress votes, that is preferable to you?

What about you, MonkeyFunk? Occam? Is that the kind of campaign you prefer?

if I think that failing to file paperwork is laughable, I approve of voter suppression. 'k.

Somebody asked why he's on the ballot and I answered truthfully. I don't know why you're taking this personally, and I'm sorry you are, but Kucinich tried, and failed, to file simple paperwork.

Imagine what would happen her if Clinton had made the same blunder.

When Kucinich does it, it's kinda funny, because anyone who isn't in love with him sees that he can't run a campaign at all. If Clinton were to do it, it would be suspicious to most people--she has an army of lawyers (in addition to being one herself), tons of staffers, and a campaign renowned for measuring fifteen times before doing some internal polling on the likely ramifications of cutting once.

People would assume that this was all an obvious ploy to stay on the ballot while trying to look like she was keeping her hands clean. Instead of the occasional thread like this, there would be dozens and dozens of conspiratorial threads for weeks.

setting back this effort for over 10 years. Her fuck up was colossal!

than an inability to fill out day-to-day paperwork.

Hillary is an agent of the Big Pharma and the health industry.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons sued her to try to stop it. The health insurance industry ran non-stop ads against it.

And while it was not single-payer, it certainly would have taken us several steps closer to that goal.

Hillary has always criticized Bush's management of the war, not the war itself. I am sure that Hillary will bomb Iran efficiently, as she will do Lebanon, and who knows what else.

Her voting record, Iraq aside, is excellent.

in the raw pursuit of power.

Always on time. Right to the fucking minute.

is not the same as failing to file simple paperwork.

One is a complicated issue involving literally hundreds of people and votes.

The other is a candidate who can't hire a fucking clerk.

She's the best thing since sliced bread. Your reasoned posts on this and other threads are finally winning me over!

tend towards reasoned. That's why I argue here - I find reason to be in short supply.

But, strut you must.

the OP asked a question, some of us answered it, and it set off a firestorm.

I lumped you with the other poo-flinging monkeys, my apologies. As it turns out you were, in-fact throwing a small dried amalgam of fruit bits and monkey fur that you had recently coughed up.

your review means the world to me. Can you mail me a notarized copy of your results?


Oh wait... that's beyond the grasp of Kucinich. Ask a Clinton supporter to help you.

Nice Try.

I just bat 'em back at people.

I don't start threads attacking other candidates. I don't make up lies and distortions, or scour the internet to find them and distort them. I play defense.

please

mmmK? Let's watch!

that will take SOME time :o

No, dear. I'm in this thread telling the truth. You won't find one factual error in this entire thread that I wrote.

You have me on ignore simply because you disagree with me. So what're you gonna do, kick my ass?


You're so fucking tough you ignore people who disagree with you in the slightest.

but you had posted so much on a thread that I removed you.

You assume its because they disagree with you.

Could it be, that they have judged your character wanting in the likability factor?

Does that hurt your feelings?

But if you need to interject yourself here, all I can say is:

Have a goody bag!

I'll put my huge ignore list in it! You are not on it, you assumed that posters have you on ignore for reasons related to the substance of your posts. Clearly you are not liked, and I thought I'd chime in with my agreement about your generally repugnant personality. Toodles

all the consideration it deserves. Have a goody bag.

that fucktard is f***ing CLUELESS

somone who has you on ignore? tough talk there bud.

oh, that's right, you have ME on ignore.
:rofl:

dp

I don't have anybody on ignore.

What the fuck are you laughing about?

I know Skittles has friends who report things I say - she's responded to me in the past via them.

Have a goody bag.

or just in your head?


they have meds for that you know, maybe you should consider them?
dp

I've never put anyone on ignore in my life. Perhaps you're the one with... umm... problems with reality.

put that asscarrot on IGNORE!!!!!! :rofl:

DOOGA!

And makes me glad that I can thus far separate the candidates from their supporters at DU.

websites, etc.

go figure.
dp

Oh thats' right.. incriminating pictures.

:shrug:

what's "Dooga Dooga"?

I should probably know better than to ask about inside jokes, because it always makes me the butt of more inside jokes, but I'm inherently optimistic.

I think it sums up his way of looking at things quite well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xOdATCFM30

much appreciated.

I think the last time I was sane was around the last time I saw you, so I'm tempted to draw the connection.

He's a troll in REAL life too.

Yes, I made that in 2004.

;-)

In a Sept. 13 letter to the Kucinich campaign, Secretary of State Terri Land wrote, "If you do not wish to appear on Michigan's Presidential Primary ballot, you may withdraw by filing a sworn statement expressing your desire to have your name removed from the ballot. The affidavit must be on file with the Michigan Department of State's Bureau of Elections no later than 4:00 p.m. (E.S.T.) on Tuesday, October 9, 2007."

The Kucinich campaign faxed a letter, notarized by Justice of the Peace Alan Greene and signed by Campaign Manager Mike Klein. The Michigan office acknowledges this document was received with a 3:02 p.m. time-stamp.

"I am the national campaign manager for Dennis Kucinich and I am responsible for all ballot access activity for the campaign," wrote Klein. "I affirm with this notarized statement that we do not want to participate in the Michigan Democratic Primary."

Roughly 30 minutes later, the campaign faxed a second letter, this one signed by Kucinich. This letter reads, "With this communication I affirm that I wish to withdraw my name from the ballot of the Michigan Democratic Primary."

The second statement came from the Congressman himself "to attest to and corroborate the legitimacy of the sworn statement by his campaign manager -- just in case there were any questions as to whether Klein had the authority to submit a sworn statement on behalf of the candidate," said Andy Juiewicz, the campaign's national spokesman.

The (Republican) Secretary of State rejected the paperwork based on Kucinich's signature being on the letter stating the campaign manager could act on his behalf, rather than being on the notarized paperwork.

http://www.essentialestrogen.com/2007/10/kucinich_campaign_will_conside.html

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Thank you for posting that.

(and when you are clearly personally involved) is incompetence indeed.

and the usual scream and smear rhetoric from the anti-DK tag-team ...

got it.
dp

"The (Republican) Secretary of State rejected the paperwork based on Kucinich's signature being on the letter stating the campaign manager could act on his behalf, rather than being on the notarized paperwork."

i'd place my bets in a court of law the judge would decide with Kucinich.
dp

The Secretary of State asked for a notarized document signed by the candidate. Kucinich supplied a notarized document signed by his campaign manager. He then supplied a letter stating "With this communication I affirm that I wish to withdraw my name from the ballot of the Michigan Democratic Primary."

Every other candidate managed to figure out how to supply a signed, notarized document. Why didn't Kucinich?

(And as for "any judge?" Clearly not, since Kucinich didn't bother litigating the matter, despite his vocal protestations. However, there's always the possibility that he couldn't figure out how to get that done, either.)

Act, Iraq and Iran intelligence reports, China Trade bill etc.

:hi:

Losing ones records is so confidence inspiring.

That's why I know Hill is competent. Because she doesn't know where her really important stuff is.

he actually READS what he votes on which is why he did not support the illegal invasion of Iraq when idiots like Edwards and HRC DID.

with the IWR; their speeches at the time made that clear. That makes their votes all the harder to swallow, but I'm willing to in the general election.

it just boggles my mind

are more easily boggled than others.

'mistakes' whose consequences are far more reaching.

Did Obama read the draft Oil Law that was a benchmark in the supplemental appropriations bill last spring? He voted for the bill and the benchmark.

Was he not a co-sponsor to a bill that declared the IRG a terrorist organization, the bill never came up for a vote, but it appears he agrees with Hillary.

He also spoke of the Iranian nuclear weapons program during a debate, Dennis quickly called him on that. Of course the moderator never followed up on that subject.

Some food for thought while you harass Dennis on more minor issues.

Doesn't mean I'm in favor of bombing Iran, and it doesn't mean that K-L was a vote for war.

It will force the MSM to mention his name.

and he wants YOU to know it.

n/t