Obama's Church and the Double Standard

Great blog post from Jack and Jill Politics that everyone should read. There's nothing troubling about Obama's church. The trouble is that there's a double standard for churches that are black.




http://jackandjillpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/01/double-standard-against-barack-obamas.html

me too.

simply because it is black, period. And it's coming from not just conservatives, but our so-called friends, liberals. The fact is, ethnic solidarity is fine, even in church, as long as it's white.

There's nothing they can say that can justify the smears on this church.

If people think the Democratic party is going to have issues getting black folks back in line for the general, just wait until they, the Clintons, white liberals, and conservatives, start to attack one of the most prominent community service oriented black churches in this country. Just wait.

The smears on his church are happening because they have chosen to become a political organization, and because they exist for the benifit of one community.

You get a church to say that it is "unashamedly white" and see what kind of criticism it gets.

We wouldn't have survived if our churches weren't political.

As for "unashamedly white"? Please, when have white people been told by society that they as a people have nothing to be proud of? Never. God forbid black people rise up from self hate and start to love themselves.

...does ANY of that relate to what it means to be a Christian?

I don't care if Blacks want to have political organizations or community programs to adress you identity issues. The point is that the Christian religion is race-neutral in every aspect - there is no room for racial segregation in the Christian church.

There is no problem with being unashamedly black, white, latino, Jewish, or whatever. But the Christian church should be nothing but unashamedly Christian, anything else denigrates the church and co-opts it for the furtherance of non-Christian causes.

All these Evangelicals...Southern Baptist... Benny Hinn... Rolling around like pimps ...ALL of them! They all push political agendas...one way or another.

but is that all there is to it? That they're unashamedly Black and supportive of Africa?

Christ on a pogo stick this crap is just... :banghead:

The GOP tasted blood over the last 10 days with Hillary baiting race debates.

Now... they are going to go on the attack. It's predictable. Don't be surprised.

Indignation is not going to be a valid response.

I know people use all kinds of silly crap to decide whether to support a candidate... I don't have to consider it as valid, either.

The way I see it, this is nonsense, and anyone who gets "swayed" by it is a racist who was already looking for an excuse to not like him. So I don't see him losing support at all over this... because whatever he "loses" was lost to begin with, cause they're racists.

I am just saying Obama better have a better plan =D

John Lewis knows that. Charlie Rangel knows that. They whupped Obama's ass for it and made him stop. Not a smart thing to keep lying about.

See the link in my sig. I'm so tired of people defending her BS... i dont want to get into it yet again.

Look at the long list of smears in the thread in my sig.

This is not a relative truth. He did it. He was caught. He got taken to the woodshed. Not liking a fact doesn't dissolve it. Sorry.

Because you're going to make a fool out of yourself if you keep pushing it.

because YOU say so. Ha. not even fucking close. Clinton was the one that had to get rid of her high ranking campaign official Shaheen. The list of race baiter proxies she's emloyed is long. SHE got caught and she had to sever ties with an important campaign co-chair. But of course that didn't stop her or her little acolytes here- like you.

amazing....

Rangel and Lewis are hardly neutral and you damn well know it. What a pathetic argument.

The Hillary camp baited, caused racialization of the campaign and Obama tried to stay above the fray.

The ones who lost in this were the minority voters who got a rude awakening that their precious democratic party is ready to use their emotions and victimization as a political toy. Hillary Clinton used a calculated diss of MLK just to gain power, folks.

Shuck n Jive.
Hip black friend who cant provide.
MLK-type speech maker, not a real doer.
Proetry, not prose.
Going to get assassinated.
etc.

These were not mistakes... but were an attempt to race bait and turn the dialog into a frenzy focused on Obama's race, then the Clinton group stood up with a few sell-out black leaders to pretend Obama started it (when all he did was say her MLK comment was unfortunate).

admitted, in response to a question regarding the four page race pushing memo from his campaign, that he had made a mistake in judgment.

It should have taken care of the question about who was pushing it. Obama admitted that he was but apparently his supporters missed it.

The memo catalogued ALL the incidents from the Clinton campaign, going back as far as the Shaheen(sp) statement.

Bill Clinton has been on Black radio saying that he has a list of over 80 alleged examples of where the Obama campaign has insulted Hillary.

It was not a "race pushing" memo. It was a memo that contended that was a pattern in many of these things that have come out of the Clinton camp.

If the Clintons can keep a list why can't other campaigns?

the process for pushing (or shutting down) an issue. That memo proved the Obama campaign had a plan to continue to discuss the race issue - they thought they had a winner. Obama thought the discussion was a good political strategy.

He was ill advised.

I am still trying to figure who he is listening to and if he has any close advisors who are AA.

Pushing the race thing by his camp was a bone head move. I am glad the senior members of the Black Caucus got to him and pulled him off the strategy before it could do more damage to the Democratic Party and AAs.

What is the difference between their memo and the Clinton's memo? Obama didn't think it was a good political strategy because he knows how you all get so uptight when the discussion involves race.

What I'm really wondering about are Clinton's advisors. Who in the world told her that having Bob Johnson speak for her would endear her to African Americans.

And the senior members didn't get to him. Sorry, now that's a fairy tale.

Have NOT heard an APOLOGY...........>>>.....>>>>>>.>>YET for HIS racist remark about HIllary's KATRINA TEARS! Please somebody help me with this........ my lap tops gonna blow! (NOW there is a word!) ha!

What obama DID say is that he doesnt believe Hillary "started it" intentionally.

That was pretty strong of him to do, because he knows (as most blacks know) that her campaign DID bait.

All he ever did was make a brief comment that her MLK statement was unfortunate, and the trap was sprung on him. She came at him with another wave of non-sense attacks trying to suggest THAT was somehow an insult. OH NO, HEAVEN FORBID SOMEBODY CALL HER OUT ON FLAGRANTLY DISRESPECTFUL BAITING AND USING MLK'S NAME FOR A SMEAR. She then had several black leaders get up and attack Obama for daring to say she was racist, etc.

It was all carefully orchestrated race baiting.

It's not the first time it's been done and nor will it be the last.

And there's no proof that Obama has done a thing for Africa, not even the tribe he actually knows he's related to, making him very different from most American blacks...except the fortunate few who have been able to do the DNA comparisons. So big deal on that.

What I want to know is about the journey that found this church. It wasn't his mother's church or her family's church. It wasn't his father's church. Is it his wife's church? If so, where was he before? How did he come to the door of this church and ask to be let in? Did he google to find it?

And I can't figure why no one can tell me WHEN he found that church. WHERE he was before. WHY he isn't at his mother or grandmother's church.

Is the story in his book? Who's read it and can tell me?

And I really don't care how he found it or why he chose it. I don't read biographies. That's just not the kind of stuff I'm very curious about.

It's relevance is subjective depending on the observer. I don't give a crap.

he has said that he is open to the fact that his support of reproductive rights may not be infallible, again, in reference to morality and religion.

that leads me to see it as a negative.

Incurious like our George. So why did you choose to answer a question you don't care about? Because you don't care or the possible answers cause you anxiety?

What a fucking assholey thing to say.

I'm incurious ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL BUSINESS. Did that clear it up for you?

And I said to begin with that I was trying to avoid this nonsense.

:puke:

Imagine a white candidate belonging to a "white power" church and then saying "religion is a private matter" in response to criticism. This is the challenge Obama faces... because while it's not at all the same... it's going to be perceived that way by many/most americans.

only racists will be "swayed" by this.

Mainstream america is inherently uncomfortable with the idea of a "black" theology or a "black" church - at least one that takes pride in it and presents themselves that way.

That isnt about americans being "racist" and there are PLENTY of blacks who will love a chance to speak out against this, too. Mark my words... this is a lightning rod.

It's too easy to pretend only dumb racists will be bothered by some of the rhetoric of this church, or to pretend that everybody will see through the smears and baiting. Indeed, we see that even many on this board cannot see the Hillary race baiting for what it was... (and will attack those of us who spoke the truth).

I think Obama can rise above this mess, but it's going to be very tricky and i hope he has a plan.

"Mainstream america is inherently uncomfortable with the idea of a "black" theology or a "black" church - at least one that takes pride in it and presents themselves that way."

Only RACIST mainstream America. The rest will see this nonsense for what it is.

course, correct. Only someone with issues will want to keep hammering on it. There are a few of those around. They own the problem.

Wright says its doctrine reflects black liberation theology, which views the Bible in part as a record of the struggles of “people of color” against oppression.

A skilled and fiery orator, Wright’s interpretation of the Scriptures has been described as “Afrocentric.”

When referring to the Romans, for example, he refers to “European oppression” — not addressing the fact that the Egyptians, who were also a slave society, were

people of Africa….

Wright on 9/11: “White America got their wake-up call after 9/11. White America and the Western world came to realize people of color had not gone away, faded in

the woodwork, or just disappeared as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” On the Sunday after the attacks, Dr. Wright blamed

America.

Wright on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway: “Black women are being raped daily in Africa. One white girl from Alabama gets drunk at a graduation trip to Aruba,

goes off and gives it up while in a foreign country and that stays in the news for months.”…

Wright on America: He has used the term “middleclassness” in a derogatory manner; frequently mentions “white arrogance” and the “oppression” of African-Americans

today; and has referred to “this racist United States of America.”

Where did you even get that idea?

:wtf:



As I thought... frickin nonsense. :eyes:

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Read this through the eyes of mainstream america...

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."

Um, now, im afraid that doesnt sound very much like Obama's message. Does it sound like it to you? lol

Continue exploring the site...

http://www.tucc.org/talking_points.htm

"The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology."

"Black theology is one of the many theologies in the Americas that became popular during the liberation theology movement."

This is well-intended stuff which doesn't mean what it sounds like on the surface, but i'm afraid we can't expect mainstream america to get the meaning.



Now, here's Pastor Wright on Fox News (a year ago) trying to defend himself against the claims of being a "separatist movement." Notice how BADLY he handled himself. This is Obama's pastor and the head of the church showing he's frankly... not prepared to comfort people and to convey a message that doesnt scare the majority. Indeed, he DOES sound like a separatist after being charged with the label. Not good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNTGRL0OJWQ

Obama needs to get way ahead on this issue... cuz the GOP are inevitably prepared to swift-boat on this.

That really has you upset, huh?

It's funny to read the splattering of nonsense you are posting today. You have an issue with it.

And you can pretend all you want that my comments and concern about this are based on some "problem" i have with his church... that somehow im some bigotted fox news guy who's out to get him.

Go ahead and pretend that all you want.

It doesn't change the reality. And oddly enough, there's an explosion of threads today on this topic because the buzz is growing and the GOP is going to start smearing.

It's important to get the facts straight, think the issues through and help get beyond this topic.

Rather than to pretend it doesnt exist.

"started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology."


Honestly...

=D

I tried to show what folks are reacting to.

Folks are going to dig up all kinds of stuff on Jeremiah Wright, i assure you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfNEfEBYIZs

^^^ Listen to this. HOwever you feel about it, realize he says a lot of stuff that will freak america out.

in the title of the book.

The entire CHURCH was founded on this book you keep suggesting it irrelevant in title.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfNEfEBYIZs

The point is... however we feel about Jeremiah Wright's message and church, this is going to FREAK mainstream america out if presented in the way we KNOW it's going to be presented.

Fixed.

touche

Please explain how this church is a problem but Judaism is not?

Nor am i interested in some heated argument about ethnic integration, etc.

The point is that "black power," "black liberation" and "black theology" are going to freak americans out and be misrepresented as a radical separatist movement that Obama is a part of...

While many americans will perhaps laugh it off, the discussion will freak many people out and pointing at judaism for a retort wont exactly smooth the issue over. LOL

His mom was from Kansas. He dad was from Kenya. He grew up mostly in Hawaii. His dad left their lives early (the father was raised muslim, but didnt practice and was a harvard intellectual type). He had an indonesian step-dad (for a while). He grew up a party boy without much religion.

He grandmother from Kansas used to talk about god, jesus and being saved a lot.

Obama went off to school, graduated from Hardvard Law at the top of his class. He ran off to CHICAGO to be a young civil rights activist/lawyer. He got heavily inspired and involved with the role of churches in the black community, particularly on the south side of Chicago. He came face to face with the power of black churches when it came to local community change.

"It was because of these newfound understandings—that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved—that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized."

I do not believe he met Michelle through the church, because they only met in 1988 and didnt get married until the 90s.

See a selection from that book here. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546579,00.html

Where they both worked.

His parents aand grandparents didn't regularly attend church. They were non-practicing Methodists and Baptists.

He found his current church when he became a community organizer.

Would you like him to help their tribes?

Ever hear of separation of Church & State?

This is a non-issue

I just said he hasn't done anything for Africa, not even his relatives, so why should anyone get twitchy about an Afro-centered church connection. And yet you did.

I suggest you do some research on that. He has.

I don't know the specifics, but i know that his work in chicago as a young lawyer lead him to his religious conversion at this church. He married his wife at this church.

I do not know if she was originally of the church.

I'm sure he discusses it in more detail in his book. I havent read it...

I also know that he wasn't apparently brought up very religious, although his granny (the white one) was very religious and often told him about the power of christ, etc. I'm sure that impacted him, or so he says.

His mom was from kansas. I'm not sure her upbringing but it was very religious, apparently.

for many many years now. Not to mention the step-grandmother whose home he had reparied recently. I doubt that he is not sending money "back home" to his Kenyan family members once in a while. And he knows his tribe. He is Luo. Unlike the vast majority of Black Americans, he knows his whole history, both African and European.

His mother was but was brought up attending Baptist and Methodist churches. They were Christian but not church going people. His mother became agnostic as she was turned off by the racism and hypocrisy she saw in church growing up. Obama Sr. was an athetist. So he was not brought up in any church.

Read his first book. It goes into details about how he got saved and joined Trinity.

And Rev. Wrights church is well known in the black community and is THE church in Chicago. I doubt he googled it....in 1987. Idiot.

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/Obama_Pastor/2008/01/14/64212.html

The church motto, “Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian,” was coined by Wright’s predecessor, Rev. Reuben Sheares, and the congregation officially adopted it soon after Wright started his tenure. Obama began attending in 1985, when he noticed the “Free South Africa” sign that had been standing on the church lawn for seven years.

:hi:

Why is that, do you suppose?

and rightfully so.

Are any Catholics running right now? I don't think so.

But they brought it up.

:shrug:

It does in my family and in Haruka's, and in many more people I know who have certain WEstern and Eastern European backgrounds.

Other than it's status as a very small but sovereign nation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean

If I recall, the church Howard Dean wasn't a problem for him, although the fact that Dean rarely attended was made a very small issue for like a minute. But most, especially progressives like d Dean's choice of church.

Double standard is right? :eyes:

I appreciate the effort, but he can't get up there and say "it's the same church as howard dean." lol

It's not a black and white thing.

We're all over McCain for speaking at Bob Jones and Liberty U. - as well we should be.

No one thinks Obama is an anti-Semite, so that's why the link, albeit tenuous, to Farakkan is weird.

I don't think most people would agree with the church's position because many people find Farrakkan positions troubling as they stir politics of hate and divisiveness.

That is a very strong accustaion just to make.

"Cohen made clear that Obama has nothing to do with Farrakhan's anti-Semitic views. Cohen, however, called on Obama to distance himself from the award because, Cohen wrote, Obama had an obligation to speak out because he could be the next president. Cohen also wondered where Obama's 'sense of outrage' is.

"After the column was published, Obama said in a statement, 'I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan. I assume that Trumpet magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree.'

"Obama's campaign sent the statement to several major Jewish organizations."

Source: http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/743050,CST-NWS-sweet16b.article

These would likely be two gorillas in the chicago black community trying to find middle ground and show mutual respect.

For those familiar with hip hop, understand this church is "Common's" church and all the drama around him going after gangster rappers and Farrakhan's attempts to get involved.

Barack Obama is a member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. Its minister, and Obama's spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epitomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/14/AR2008011402083.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


The Church gave it's TUCC's Lifetime Achievment Award to Louis Farrakhan. That doesn't speak well of the church to me.

We're talking a leading black christian church trying to show some respect to a black muslim leader and activist.

Keep in mind that he's terminally ill.

Indeed, Wright's views about racial politics overlap with Farrakhan's on several points... and this show of respect has to be taken in the local context of chicago's black leaders and their long history.

Obviously those who see Farrakhan as pure evil hate will not appreciate this Church's attempt to show any respect upon him. That's a fair position and not worth debating. I'm just saying that this church is deep in controversial stuff in light of mainstream american culture.

Back in my parents' hometown, the church we've always attended was a very conservative Catholic church that regularly advocates for partisan Republican politics. It's the only Catholic church in the area.

Perhaps I'm Republican? Let my voting and donation record be damned as irrelevant. I go to this church every Christmas, so I must be Republican by association?

beter to disassociate himself from this church.

He can and must joke about this in a way that distances himself from the separatist rhetoric, but he also can come off as a traitor to his church community and local support.

He can balance this by humor and then saying that he's not running on theology.

if not damning.

Better find that link quick.

he's also a local chicago black leader... who happens to be dying.

He needs a working path beyond this mess, and it's better to get it out in the open now than in the final month(s) of a GE (if he were to win).

Interesting.

Does the Bible have a different section for Blacks that I missed?

I'm trying to figure out why being a "black Christian" is different from being a "Christian". BO's church obviously thinks there is a BIG difference and spends a lot of time talking about it - which is why it is a big turn-off to those of us who are just "Christians" with no racial label.

The intellectual level of debate on the board continues to amaze me.

You are just way too clever for me!

attend churches where there are no people of color. Most black churches are all black. Most Latino churches have only Latino members. Most Asian churches have only Asian members. No one is kept out of these churches, but most churches lean in some cultural direction. So what exactly is the problem

And again, why is it ok for Jews to be tied to Isreal, but wrong for blacks to be tied to Africa?

...In fact I think we would be much better off if we stopped trying trying to force integration. However, I have a problem with portraying the Christian experience as something that changes depending on your race. You life may be different, and you may be treated differently by other people, but the <i>Christian</i> experience - how God relates to you and vice-versa, is universal.

I never said anything about the focus on Africa.

so yea.

Hence they are scared and disgusted at the idea of a "black church" in the sense that they actually are FOR blacks, not just in a black neighborhood.

And the judaism retort wont exactly make them more comfortable.

...the smearing of Obama's church is all in your mind..nobody cares, other than Obama who wants to paint his detractors as racist.

Then again... you think "nobody cares" about his church... right...

about Sen. Obama's church which discusses Trinity United. My response was so what - did the person who sent it to me (who made quite a point of the fact that they were Roman Catholic) care that in the past a St. Patrick's RC Church might have been almost wholly Irish and do a lot of outreach to Eire and N. Ireland or that another RC church might have been almost wholly Italian with programs and outreach to Italy?

Trinity's parishioners are predominantly African-American, so why shouldn't they root their beliefs and practices in African-American liberation theology and want to give back something to Africa? It makes sense.

As TJ said (paraphrased), it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my bones.

but...

i just looked it up. For reference (and mockery): http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp

i love how they equate this with reverse racism. /sigh

this was milder than the muslim email, though..

Anybody can become a Jew...