1/15/07 Las Vegas Debate, Full Transcript

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/us/politics/15demdebate-transcript.html?_r=1&ref=politics&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

The Democratic Debate in Las Vegas
The following is a transcript of the Democratic debate in Las Vegas, as provided by the Federal News Service.

DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES DEBATE PARTICIPANTS:
SENATOR HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY)
FORMER SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC)
SENATOR BARACK OBAMA (D-IL)

MODERATORS:
BRIAN WILLIAMS
TIM RUSSERT
NATALIE MORALES

MR. WILLIAMS: As we sit here this, as may you may know, is the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday. Race was one of the issues we expected to discuss here tonight. Our sponsors expected it of us. No one, however, expected it to be quite so prominent in this race as it has been over the last 10 days.

We needn't go back over all that has happened, except to say that this discussion, before it was over, involved Dr. King, President Johnson, even Sidney Poitier, several members of Congress and a prominent African-American businessman, supporting Senator Clinton, who made what seemed to be a reference to a part of Senator Obama's teenage past that the senator himself has written about in his autobiography.

The question to begin with here tonight, Senator Clinton, is, how did we get here?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think that what's most important is that Senator Obama and I agree completely that, you know, neither race nor gender should be a part of this campaign.

It is Dr. King's birthday. The three of us are here in large measure because his dreams have been realized: you know, John, who is, as we know, a son of a mill worker and, you know, really has become an extraordinary success; Senator Obama, who has such an inspirational and profound story to tell America and the world; I, as a woman who is also beneficiary of the civil rights movement and the women's movement and the human rights movement. And the Democratic Party has always been in the forefront of that.

So I very much appreciate what Senator Obama and I did yesterday, which is that we both have exuberant and sometimes uncontrollable supporters, that we need to get this campaign where it should be.

And we're all family in the Democratic Party. We are so different from the Republicans on all of these issues, in every way that affects the future of the people that we care so much about.

So I think that it's appropriate on Dr. King's birthday, his actual birthday, to recognize that all of us are here as the result of what he did, all of the sacrifice, including giving his life, along with so many of the other icons that we honor. But I know that Senator Obama and I share a very strong commitment to making sure that this campaign is about us as individuals.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Obama, same question.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think Hillary said it well. You know, we are right now, I think, in a defining moment in our history. We've got a nation at war, our planet is in peril, and the economy is putting an enormous strain on working families all across the country.

Now, race has always been an issue in our politics and in this country, but one of the premises of my campaign and, I think, of the Democratic Party -- and I know that John and Hillary have always been committed to racial equality -- is that we can't solve these challenges unless we can come together as a people and we're not resorting to the same -- or falling into the same traps of division that we have in the past.

I think our party has stood for that. Dr. King stood for that. I hope that my campaign has inspired that same sense, that there's much more that we hold in common than what separates us. And -- and that is how I want to move this campaign forward, and I hope that's how it moves forward.

MR. WILLIAMS: And, Senator Edwards, you waded into this topic tangentially yesterday.

MR. EDWARDS: Well, I -- the only thing I would add is I had the perspective of living in the South, including at a time when there was segregation in the South, and I feel an enormous personal responsibility to continue to move forward. Now, we've made great progress, but we're not finished with that progress, and the struggles and sacrifice of Dr. King and many others who gave blood, sweat, tears, and in some cases their lives to move America toward equality.

And I saw it. I saw it when four young men walked into a Woolworth luncheon counter in Greensboro, North Carolina, and sat down, had the courage and strength to do the right thing. And they literally stood up -- stood up on behalf of African-Americans, on behalf of southerners, on behalf of Americans, helped move this country forward in a really serious way.

And having seen the pain and the struggle and the sacrifice of so many up close, because I lived with it -- I lived with it in my years growing up -- I think we, all of us, have an enormous responsibility, not to go back but to go forward.

And I would just add, I think, it goes far beyond the Democratic Party. This is about American and about creating real equality in America across the waterfront.

MR. WILLIAMS: The questioning continues with Tim Russert.

MR. RUSSERT: In terms of accountability, Senator Obama, Senator Clinton on Sunday told me that the Obama campaign had been pushing this storyline. And true enough, your press secretary in South Carolina -- four pages of alleged comments made by the Clinton people about the issue of race. In hindsight, do you regret pushing this story?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, not only in hindsight but going forward.

I think that as Hillary said, our supporters, our staff get overzealous. They start saying things that I would not say, and it is my responsibility to make sure that we're setting a clear tone in our campaign. And I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why I spoke yesterday and sent a message, in case people were not clear, that what we want to do is make sure that we focus on the issues.

Now, there are going to be significant issues that we debate and some serious differences that we have, and I'm sure those will be on display today. What I am absolutely convinced of is that everybody here is committed to racial equality, has been historically.

And what I also expect is that I'm going to be judged as a candidate in terms of how I'm going to be improving the lives of the people of Nevada and people all across the country -- that they are going to be ultimately making judgments on can I deliver on good jobs and good wages; can I make sure that our home foreclosure crisis is adequately dealt with; are we going to be serious about retirement security; and are we going to have a foreign policy that makes us safe. And if I'm communicating that message, then I expect to be judged on that basis. And if I'm not, then I expect to be criticized on that basis. And that's the kind of campaign that we want to run and that we have run up until this point.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe this is a deliberate attempt to marginalize you as the black candidate?

SEN. OBAMA: No. As I said, you know, I think that if you look not just at this campaign, but at my history -- my belief is that race is a factor in our society.

But I think what happened in Iowa is a testimony to the fact that the American public is willing to judge people on the basis of who can best deliver the kinds of changes that they're so desperately looking for, and that's the kind of movement that we want to build all across the country. And that, I think, is the legacy of Dr. King that we need to build on.

MR. RUSSERT: In New Hampshire your polling was much higher than the actual vote result. Do you believe in the privacy of the voting booth that people used race as an issue?

SEN. OBAMA: No. I think what happened was that Senator Clinton ran a good campaign up in New Hampshire. And, you know, I think that people recognize we've got some terrific candidates who are running vigorous campaigns. It's going to be close everywhere we go. It's close here in Nevada. It's going to be close in South Carolina. And, you know, at any given moment people are going to be making judgments based on who they think is best speaking to them about the urgent problems that they're facing in this country.

Now, the one thing I'm convinced about, and this was true in Iowa and this is true in New Hampshire as well, is that change is going to happen because the American people determine that change is going to happen. And that's what I draw from Dr. King's legacy.

You know what happens in Washington is important, and we've got to have elected officials that are accountable and serious about moving forward on the goals of opportunity and upward mobility. But if we don't have an activated people, a unified people -- black, white, Latino, Asian -- who are all moving in the same direction and demanding that change happens, then Washington special interests, lobbyists end up dominating the agenda. That's what I want to change.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, in terms of accountability, you told me on Sunday morning, "Any time anyone has said anything that I thought was out of bounds, they're gone. I've gotten rid of them." Shortly thereafter, that same afternoon, Robert Johnson, at your event, said, quote, "When Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood that -- I won't say what he was doing, but he said it in his book" -- widely viewed as a reference to Senator Obama's "Dreams from My Father," from 1995, where he talked about his drug use as a teenager. Will you now not allow Robert Johnson to participate in any of your campaign events because of that conduct?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, Bob has put out a statement saying what he was trying to say and what he thought he had said. We accept him on his word on that.

But clearly we want to send a very clear message to everybody that this campaign is too important for us to either get diverted or frankly get the message of what we want to do for our country subverted by any kind of statements or claims that are just not part of who I am or who Barack or John are, because I think what's critical here is that the American people understand clearly what is at stake in this election.

The stakes are really high, and there's an urgent need for leadership on a range of issues, you know, some of which are now becoming, right here in front of us, about whether or not people are going to be able to keep their homes in Nevada, whether they're going to have jobs.

You know, I went door to door in Las Vegas last week and, you know, I met construction workers who've been laid off. I met a casino employee who's already been laid off. So what people talk to me about is not what somebody they never heard of said but what we say, what we're for, what we're standing for and what we're going to be pushing for. So I accept what he said, but I think what's important is what I say and what each of us says about the kind of president we intend to be and how we're going to get there.

MR. RUSSERT: Were his comments out of bounds?

SEN. CLINTON: Yes, they were, and he has said that.

MR. WILLIAMS: We're going to continue the questioning now with Natalie Morales.

MS. MORALES: Thank you, Brian. And this is a question for Senator Edwards. It comes to us from Margaret Wells from San Diego, California.

Senator, she's asking, the policy differences among the remaining candidates is so slight that we appear to be choosing on the basis of personality and life story. That being said, why should I, as a progressive woman, not resent being forced to choose between the first viable female candidate and the first viable African American candidate?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, I think that the decision for every voter in this election should revolve around, first, whether you believe America needs change; if you do, who you think would be most effective in bringing about that change. We have different perspectives on that.

I think the system in Washington is broken. I don't think it works. And I think the American people -- middle-class Americans are struggling and suffering. They can't pay for their health care. They're losing their jobs. They can't pay for their kids to go to college.

Now, this is a very personal thing for me. Hillary mentioned a minute ago that I grew up in a family of mill workers. I was the first person in my family to actually be able to go to college. And so this battle for real opportunity for everybody, the kind of chances I've had in my own life, is central to everything I do. It is central to this campaign. It is a personal, personal fight for me.

And I think the decision that voters make about who can best fight for the middle class, who will never give up on the fight for universal health care, who will actually stand up strongly and -- and fervently for the right to organize, for unions to be able to organize in the workplace. These things are not academic for me; they are my life. I believe in them to my soul. And I will fight with every fiber of my being to make sure that everybody gets that kind of opportunity.

And I think there are some differences on policy and perspective between the three of us, and I hope we get a chance to talk more about that today.

MS. MORALES: And Senator Edwards, as a follow-up to Margaret Wells' question, what is a white male to do running against these historic candidacies? (Laughter.)

MR. EDWARDS: You know, I have to say, on behalf of my party -- and I've said this -- I've said this many times -- I'm proud of the fact that we have a woman and an African-American who are very, very serious candidates for the presidency. They both ask not to be considered on their gender or on their race. I respect that.

I do believe, however, that it says really good things about America, and I think, actually believe that both through these primaries and caucuses and in the general election, that the American people are going to make decisions based on who we are, what we stand for and what we're fighting for.

MR. WILLIAMS: A question for Senator Obama. You won the women's vote in Iowa, but Senator Clinton won the women's vote in New Hampshire; and there probably isn't an American alive today who hasn't heard the post-game analysis of New Hampshire, all the reasons the analysts give for Senator Clinton's victory. Senator Clinton had a moment where she became briefly emotional at a campaign appearance. But another given was at the last televised debate when you, in a comment directed to Senator Clinton, looked down and said, "You're likable enough, Hillary."

That caused Frank Rich to write, on the op-ed page of The New York Times, that it was your most inhuman moment to date, and it clearly was a factor and added up. Senator Obama, do you regret the comment and comments like that today?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I absolutely regret it, because that wasn't how it was intended. I mean, what -- folks were giving Hillary a hard time about likability, and my intention was to say, I think you're plenty likable. And it did not come out the way it was supposed to.

But you know, I do think that during the course of that debate, there was a tendency to parse out what is, I think, not an issue. I think all three of these candidates are good, capable people. And what we really should be focusing on is, you know, who's got a vision for how we're going to move the country forward?

And I believe that right now, the only way we're going to move the country forward is if we can bring the country together, not just Democrats but independents, Republicans who have also lost trust in government, and we are able to push aside the special interests and the lobbyists, and we are truthful to the American people and enlisting them in changing how our health care system works, how our economy works, what our tax code looks like. And that is going to be an issue that, I think, all of us are going to have to struggle with over the coming days.

It's not going to be an issue of, you know, who's got the nicest smile or, you know, who's going to be fun to have a beer with. It's going to be who can provide the leadership that makes sure the country is moving forward through what I anticipate are going to be some difficult times and who is going to be able to transform how Washington works in a fundamental way.

MR. WILLIAMS: And one more question about that last televised debate, Senator Edwards. Afterwards Senator Clinton said it was as if you and Senator Obama had formed a buddy system against her. Senator Clinton put out an Internet ad that was entitled "Piling On." Looking back on it, the campaign for New Hampshire, in total, do you admit that it might have looked that way?

MR. EDWARDS: Might have looked way or actually was that way? I don't think it was that way. I mean, my -- my job, as a candidate for president of the United States, is to speak the truth as I see it. I have spoken the truth. I will continue to speak the truth, whatever the consequences are and whatever the perception that -- that people have is.

I do believe that I am a candidate for president who is fighting for change, who believes that we have entrenched moneyed interests in this country that are preventing the middle class from having a real chance.

And it's drug companies, insurance companies, oil companies, there are lobbyists. Barack spoke about them just a few minutes ago. It's why I've never, the whole time I've been in public life, taken a dime from a Washington lobbyist or special-interest PAC, because I do believe those people stand between America and the change that it so desperately needs, in real ways. They're the reason we don't have universal health care. They're the reason we have a trade policy that's cost America millions of jobs. They're the reason we have an insane tax policy that actually gives tax breaks to American companies sending jobs overseas.

The promise of America that I and millions of others have lived -- and we are in Nevada tonight, a place that people come to in the thousands every day to find the promise of America because they believe in it. It is central to everything we are as a nation. And I do believe that that promise is being jeopardized by very well- financed, monied interests. I believe that's the truth, and I'm going to keep saying it.

MR. WILLIAMS: Tim.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton --

AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Could we stop talking ?) race-based questions coming from you two? These are race-based questions. (Off mike) -- race-based and (gender ?)-based.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, your husband said that Senator Obama very well could be the nominee; he could win. With that in mind, when you say that Senator Obama is raising false hopes and you refuse to say whether he's ready to be president, what are the consequences of those comments in the fall against the Republican?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, Tim, we're in a hard-fought primary season. I think each of us recognize that.

You know, we're the survivors of what has been a yearlong campaign, but I certainly have the highest regard for both Senator Obama and Senator Edwards. I've worked with them. I have, you know, supported them in their previous runs for office. There's no doubt that when we have a nominee, we're going to have a totally unified Democratic Party.

The issue for the voters here in Nevada, South Carolina and then all of the states to come is who is ready on day one to walk into that Oval Office knowing the problems that are going to be there waiting for our next president: a war to end in Iraq; a war to resolve in Afghanistan; an economy that I believe is slipping toward a recession, with the results already being felt here in Nevada with the highest home foreclosure rate in the entire country; 47 million Americans uninsured; an energy policy that is totally wrong for America, for our future.

You know, President Bush is over in Gulf now begging the Saudis and others to drop the price of oil. How pathetic! We should have an energy policy right now putting people to work in green-collar jobs as a way to stave off the recession, moving us toward energy independence. All of that and more is waiting for our next president.

You know, obviously, each of us believes that we are the person who should walk into that Oval Office on January 20th, 2009. I'm presenting my experience, my qualifications, my ideas, my vision for America. And it's rooted in the voices that I hear -- that I've heard for 35 years -- of people who want a better life for themselves and their children. And I'm going to keep, you know, putting forward what I have done and what I will do. And this is what this election, I think, is really about.

MR. RUSSERT: You may think you are the best prepared, but would you acknowledge that Senator Obama and Senator Edwards are both prepared to be president?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think that that's up to the voters to decide. I think that that's something that voters have to make a decision about on all of us. They have to look at each and every one of us and imagine us in the Oval Office, imagine us as commander in chief, imagine us making tough decisions about everything we know we're going to have to deal with, and then all of the unpredictable events that come through the door of the White House and land on the desk of the president.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, you gave an interview to The Reno Gazette-Journal, and you said we all have strengths and weaknesses. You said one of your weaknesses is, quote, "I'm not an operating officer." Do the American people want someone in the Oval Office who is an operating officer?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think what I was describing was how I view the presidency.

Now, being president is not making sure that schedules are being run properly or the paperwork is being shuffled effectively. It involves having a vision for where the country needs to go. It involves having the capacity to bring together the best people and being able to spark the kind of debate about how we're going to solve health care, how we're going to solve energy, how we are going to deliver good jobs with good wages, how we're going to keep people in their homes here in Nevada, and then being able to mobilize and inspire the American people to get behind that agenda for change. That's the kind of a leadership that I've shown in the past. That's the kind of leadership that I intend to show as president of the United States.

So what's -- what's needed is sound judgment, a vision for the future, the capacity to tap into the hopes and dreams of the American people and mobilize them to push aside those special interests and lobbyists and forces that are standing in the way of real change -- and making sure that you have a government that reflects the decency and the generosity of the American people. That's the kind of leadership that I believe I can provide.

MR. RUSSERT: You said each of you have strengths and weaknesses. I want to ask each of you quickly, your greatest strength, your greatest weakness.

SEN. OBAMA: My greatest strength, I think, is the ability to bring people together from different perspectives, to get them to recognize what they have in common and to move people in a different direction.

And as I indicated before, my greatest weakness, I think, is when it comes to -- I'll give you a very good example. I ask my staff never to hand me paper until two seconds before I need it, because I will lose it. (Laughter.) You know. The -- you know. And my desk in my office doesn't look good. I've got to have somebody around me who is keeping track of that stuff. And that's not trivial. I need to have good people in place who can make sure that systems run. That's what I've always done. And that's why we've run not only a good campaign but a good U.S. Senate office.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Edwards? Greatest strength, greatest weakness.

MR. EDWARDS: I think my greatest strength is that for 54 years I've been fighting with ever fiber in my being. In the beginning, the fight was for me. Growing up in mill towns and mill villages, I had to literally fight to survive. But then I spent 20 years in courtrooms fighting for children and families against really powerful, well-financed interests.

I learned from that experience, by the way, that if you're tough enough and you're strong enough and you got the guts and you're smart enough, you can win. That's a fight that can be won. It can be won in Washington, too, by the way. And I've continued that -- that fight my entire time in public life.

So I've got what it takes inside to fight on behalf of the American people and on behalf of the middle class.

I think weakness -- I sometimes have a very powerful emotional response to pain that I see around me. When I see a man like Donnie Ingram, who I met a few months ago in South Carolina, who worked with for 33 years in the mill, reminded me very much of the kind of people that I grew up with, who's about to lose his job, has no idea where he's going to go, what he's going to do -- I mean, his dignity and self-respect is at issue, and I feel that in a really personal way and in a very emotional way. And I think sometimes that can undermine what you need to do.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I am passionately committed to this country and what it stands for. I'm a product of the changes that have already occurred, and I want to be an instrument for making those changes alive and real in the lives of Americans, particularly children. That's what I've done for 35 years. It is really my life's work. It is something that comes out of my own experience, both in my family and in my church; that, you know, I've been blessed. And I think to whom much is given, much is expected.

So I have tried to create opportunities, both on an individual basis, intervening to help people who have nowhere else to turn, to be their champion -- I meant to make those changes, and I think I can deliver change.

I think I understand how to make it possible for more people to live up to their God-given potential.

I get impatient. I get, you know, really frustrated when people don't seem to understand that we can do so much more to help each other, and sometimes I come across that way. I admit that. I get very concerned about, you know, pushing further and faster than perhaps people are ready to go.

But I think that, you know, there is a difference here. You know, I do think that being president is the chief executive officer, and I respect what Barack said about setting the vision, setting the tone, bringing people together. But I think you have to be able to manage and run the bureaucracy. You've got to pick good people certainly but you have to hold them accountable every single day.

We've seen the results of a president who frankly failed at that. You know, he went in to office saying he was going to have the kind of Harvard Business School CEO model, where he'd set the tone, he'd set the goals, and then everybody else would have to implement it. And we saw the failures. We saw the failures along the Gulf Coast with, you know, people who were totally incompetent and insensitive, failing to help our fellow Americans.

We've seen the failures with holding the administration accountable with the no-bid contracts and the cronyism.

So I do think you have to do both. It's a -- it's a really hard job, and in America we put, you know, the head of state and the head of government together in one person. But I think you've got to set the tone, you've got to set the vision, you've got to set the goals, you've got to bring the country together. And then you do have to manage and operate and hold that bureaucracy accountable to get the results you're trying to achieve.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, Senator Clinton invoked your name. I'll give you a chance to respond.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I -- there's no doubt that you've got to be a good manager, and that's not what I was arguing.

The point in terms of bringing together a team is that you get the best people, and you're able to execute and hold them accountable. But I think that there -- there's something, if we're going to evaluate George Bush and his failures as president, that I think are much more important. He was very efficient. He was on time all the time and, you know, had -- (laughter) -- you know, I -- I'm sure he never lost a paper. I'm sure he knows where it is. (Laughter.)

What -- what -- what he -- what he could not do -- what he could not do is to listen to perspectives that didn't agree with his ideological predispositions. What he could not do is to bring in different people with different perspectives and get them to work together. What he could not do is to manage the -- the effort to make sure that the American people understood that if we're going to go into war, that there are going to be consequences and there are going to be costs.

And we have to be able to communicate what those costs are and to make absolutely certain that if we're going to make a decision to send our young men and women into harm's way, that it's based on the best intelligence and that we've asked tough questions before we went in to fight.

I mean, those are -- those are the kinds of failures that have to do with judgment, they have to do with vision, the capacity to inspire people. They don't have to do with whether or not he was managing the bureaucracy properly. That's not to deny that there has to be strong management skills in the presidency. It is to say that what has been missing is the ability to bring people together, to mobilize the country to move us in a better direction, and to be straight with the American people. That's how you get the American people involved.

MR. WILLIAMS: Time for the rebuttal has expired.

Senator Obama, a fresh question here. It may not come as news to you that there is a lot of false information about you circulating on the Internet. We receive one e-mail in particular usually once several weeks. We've received three of them this week. This particular one alleges, among other things, that you are trying to hide the fact that you are Muslim; that you took the oath of office on the Koran and not the Bible; that you will not pledge allegiance to the flag or generally respect it.

How -- how do you -- how does your campaign go on about combatting this kind of thing?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, look, first of all, let's make clear what the facts are.

I am a Christian. I have been sworn in with a Bible. I pledge allegiance and lead the Pledge of Allegiance sometime in the United States Senate, when I'm presiding. I haven't been there lately because I've been in Iowa and New Hampshire. (Laughter.)

But you know, look, in the Internet age, there are going to be lies that are spread all over the place. I have been victimized by these lies. Fortunately the American people are, I think, smarter than folks give them credit for. And you know, it's a test. These e- mails were going out in Iowa; they were going out in New Hampshire. And we did just fine. If we didn't do well, for example, in New Hampshire, it wasn't because of these e-mails. It was because we didn't do what we needed to do in our campaign.

So my job is to tell the truth, to be straight with the American people about how I intend to end climate change, what I'm going to do with respect to providing health care for every American, how we're going to provide tax relief to hard-working Americans who are really feeling the pinch, and to present my vision for where the country needs to go. If I'm doing that effectively, then I place my trust in the American people that they will sort out the lies from the truth and they will make a good decision.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Obama, thank you.

At this point, we are going to take the first of exactly three breaks in the two-hour broadcast tonight. On the other side of this break, among the topics we'll take on, the economy, when we continue from Las Vegas after this. (Applause.)

(Announcements.)

MR. WILLIAMS: We are back live in Las Vegas, Nevada with the three top candidates for the Democratic nomination for president. Brian Williams with Tim Russert, Natalie Morales.

We're going to continue the questioning here on the topic of the economy, and then within this portion of the broadcast we're going to try something new for this series, and that is the candidates will have two questions each to ask of their fellow candidates.

So while they think about that, we will start off with the economy and a question for you, Senator Clinton. This evening on NBC Nightly News, our lead story was about the fact that Citigroup and Merrill Lynch have both gone overseas, as some put it hat in hand, looking for $20 billion in investment to stay afloat from, among other things, the government of Singapore, Korea, Japan, and the Saudi Prince al-Waleed, the man -- Rudolph Giuliani turned his money back after 9/11.

This is -- strikes a lot of Americans as just plain wrong. At the end of our report, we said this may end up in Congress. What can be done? And does this strike you as fundamentally wrong, that much foreign ownership of these American flagship brands?

SEN. CLINTON: Brian, I'm very concerned about this.

You know, about a month and a half or so ago, I raised this concern because these are called sovereign wealth funds. They are huge pools of money, largely because of oil and economic growth in Asia. And these funds are controlled often by governmental entities or individuals who are closely connected to the governments in these countries.

I think we've got to know more about them. They need to be more transparent. We need to have a lot more control over what they do and how they do it. I'd like to see the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund begin to impose these rules. And I want the United States Congress and the Federal Reserve Board to ask these tough questions.

But let's look at how we got here. We got here because, as I said on Wall Street on December 5th, a lot of our big financial institutions, you know, made these bets on these subprime mortgages. They helped to create this meltdown that is happening, that is costing millions of people who live in homes that are being foreclosed on or could be in the very near future because the interest rates are going up. And what they did was to take all these subprime mortgages and conventional mortgages, bundle them up and sell them overseas to big investors. So we're getting the worst of both worlds.

We can't figure out under this administration what we should do. I have a plan -- a moratorium on foreclosures for 90 days, freezing interest rates for five years, which I think we should do immediately. The administration is doing very little. And what we now see is our financial institutions having to go hat in hand to borrow money from these foreign funds.

I'm very concerned about it. I'd like to see us move much more aggressively both to deal with the immediate problem with the mortgages and to deal with these sovereign wealth funds.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Edwards, I neglected to point out that one of the companies keeping these giant American banks afloat is Kuwait -- a nation, an economy arguably afloat itself today, as you know, thanks to the blood, sweat, and tears of American soldiers. What would you do as a remedy?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, the things that Senator Clinton just spoke about are correct. We need more transparency; we need to know what's actually happening. But the fundamental problem is what's happening at the core of the American economy.

What's happening to the economy in America, if you look at it from -- distance, is we have economic growth in America; we still do. But almost the entirety of that economic growth is with the very wealthiest Americans and the biggest multinational corporations.

You ask any middle class family in America, and they will tell you they do not feel financially secure. They're worried about their job; they're worried about paying for health care; they're worried about how they're going to send their kids to college; they're worried about, in many cases -- here in Nevada particularly -- worried about their home being foreclosed on.

I spoke a few minutes ago about thousands of people coming to Nevada every day to try to find the promise of America, to try to find a good job, a good home, to meet the great moral test that all of us have as Americans, which is to make certain that our children have a better life than we have. This is the great challenge that we're facing in this election.

We talked about other historic moments. It is an historic moment for America in this election. Are we going to do what our parents and our grandparents did, who worked and struggled and suffered to ensure that we would have a better life? They have now passed that torch to us, and it is our responsibility and it will be my responsibility as president to ensure that our children and our grandchildren have a better life than we had.

MR. WILLIAMS: Tim?

Oh, Senator Obama. A rebuttal.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, it's not a rebuttal. I just want to pick up on a couple things that have been said.

Number one, part of the reason that Kuwait and others are able to come in and purchase, or at least bail out, some of our financial institutions is because we don't have an energy policy. And we are sending close to a billion dollars a day.

And this administration has consistently failed to put forward a realistic plan that is going to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, is going to invest in solar and wind and biodiesel. You look at a state like Nevada. One thing I note is folks have got a lot of sun here, and yet we have not seen any serious effort on the part of this administration to spur on the use of alternative fuels, raise fuel efficiency standards on cars. That would make a substantial difference in our balance of payments, and that would make a substantial difference in terms of their capacity to purchase our assets.

And the second thing I just want to point out is that the -- the sub-prime lending mess, part of the reason it happened was because we had an administration that does not believe in any kind of oversight. And we had the mortgage industry spending $185 million on lobbying to prevent provisions such as the ones that I proposed over a year ago that would say, you know, you've got to disclose properly what kinds of loans you're giving to people on mortgages. You've got to disclose if you've got a teaser rate and suddenly their mortgage payments are going to jack up and they can't pay for them.

And one of the things that I intend to do as president of the United States is restore a sense of accountability and regulatory oversight over the financial markets. We have the best financial markets in the world, but only if they are transparent and accountable and people trust them. And increasingly, we have not had those structures in place.

MR. WILLIAMS: Time's up, Senator.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Edwards, poor folk, middle-class folks, really feeling the pinch.

MR. EDWARDS: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: Bankruptcies are up 40 percent in one year. Five percent of credit card debts are now delinquent. In 2001 you voted for a bankruptcy bill which was the precursor to the 2005 bankruptcy bill that became law, which made it much tougher for middle-class folks, particularly women, when they became bankrupt. Do you regret that vote?

MR. EDWARDS: I absolutely do. I should not have voted for that bankruptcy law.

If you look at what's happening in America today, the -- the bankruptcies that are occurring -- about half of them are the result of medical costs. And the idea that any single mom who has a child who gets catastrophically sick and incurs $30,000 of medical costs has to go into bankruptcy as a result and can't be relieved of that debt makes absolutely no sense. And it's not fair, and it's not right.

And I spoke for just -- just a few minutes ago about the great struggles that the middle class are faced with in this country. And you hear it every single day, because what's happening in America is, jobs are leaving, cost of everything is going up -- health care, college tuition, everything. And -- and on top of that, middle-class incomes are not going up. The incomes at the very top are going up. Profits of big corporations are going up. But the -- but the incomes of middle-class families are not going up.

So the question is, what do we do about it? Besides having somebody who truly understands in a personal way what's happening, what would the president of the United States do? There are a bunch of things we need to do.

We desperately need truly universal health care that covers every single American and dramatically reduces health care costs. We do need, as Barack spoke about just a few minutes ago, a radical transformation of the way we produce and use energy. We can create at least a million new jobs in that transition. We need a national law cracking down on predatory and payday lenders that are taking advantage of our most vulnerable families.

We ought to raise the national minimum wage, which is going up to 7.25 an hour. That's fine. It's not enough. The national minimum wage should be at least $9-and-a-half an hour. It ought to be indexed to go up on its own.

We need to make it easier for kids to go to college. My proposal is that we say to any young person in America who's willing to work when they're in college, at least 10 hours a week, we'll pay for their tuition and books at a state university or a community college. And that can be paid for by getting rid of big banks as the intermediary in student loans. They make 4 (billion) or $5 billion a year. That money ought to be going to sending kids to college.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, you voted for the same 2001 bankruptcy bill that Senator Edwards just said he was wrong about. After you did that, the Consumer Federation of America said that your reversal on that bill, voting for it, was the death knell for the opponents of the bill. Do you regret that vote?

SEN. CLINTON: Sure, I do. It never became law, as you know. It got tied up. It was a bill that had some things I agreed with and other things I didn't agree with, and I was happy that it never became law. And I opposed the 2005 bill as well.

But let's talk about where we are now with bankruptcy. We need urgently to have bankruptcy reform in order to get the kind of options available for homeowners. In addition to what I want to do, which is the moratorium on foreclosures for 90 days to see what we can do to work them out, and freezing interest rates for five years, and making the mortgage industry more transparent so we actually know what they're doing -- I mean, look what happened with Countrywide. You know, Countrywide gets bought and the CEO, who was one of the architects of this whole subprime mess, is sent off with $110 million -- $110 million in severance pay. You know, the priorities and the values are absolutely wrong. So what we've got to do is move urgently.

In addition to what I've proposed, I think we've got to reform the bankruptcy law right now going forward so that people who are caught in these subprime and now increasingly conventional loans that they can't pay because of the way the interest rates are going up, and many of the fraudulent and predatory practices that got people into them in the first place, will have the option of getting relieved of this debt. So there's a lot we need to do right now.

And you know, I want to just add that -- that the groups that sponsored this are primarily black and brown groups, that care deeply about these issues. Everything we're talking about falls disproportionately on African Americans, on Hispanics, on a lot of Asian Americans. Here in Nevada, the African American and Hispanic communities are really the ones who are most victimized by these subprime mortgages.

They're the ones who are often the first to be let go when the economy begins to slide. You know, in and out of the homes that I have visited in here in Las Vegas, those are the stories that I'm hearing.

So we need to move urgently. We have a lot of big agenda items that I agree with John on -- universal health care, college affordability -- but we can't wait. We're going to lose another, you know, million Americans in home foreclosures. We're going to see a deteriorating community across America because homes will be left vacant. The housing market is down. Nobody will buy those homes. Housing wealth, which is the principal source of American middle class wealth, is now decreasing.

So I have a real sense of urgency. We need to be acting now. And I know that the Democratic Congress under Senator Harry Reid and Speaker Pelosi are going to do everything they can to address this.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Obama, the 2001 bankruptcy bill, the 2005 bankruptcy bill.

SEN. OBAMA: I opposed them both. I think they were bad ideas, because they were pushed by the credit card companies, they were pushed by the mortgage companies, and they put the interests of those banks and financial institutions ahead of the interests of the American people. And this is typical.

Now, Hillary's exactly right, but we've got to modify some of the fraudulent practices, predatory lending practices. I put in a bill a year and a half ago to make that happen because it does affect communities, including my own on the South Side of Chicago.

But unless we are able to rid the influence of special interest lobbies in Washington, we're going to continue to see bad legislation like that. And that's why we're going to have to change how politics is done in Washington.

Now, we have an immediate problem. I met with a number of folks up in Reno, just two days ago, who are already seeing their homes being foreclosed upon.

One of the things that we have to do is we have to release people who are in bankruptcy as a consequence of health care. We've got to give them a break. One woman who I was with -- her husband is a police officer. He contracted cancer, went through chemotherapy, ends up being hit by a car while on -- in the line of duty, and they fall three, four months behind on their health care payments, and that's it. They can't make the payments on their house. We've got to provide them some relief.

We've -- I've put forward a $10 billion housing fund that can help bridge people who have been responsible in making their payments. They're not speculators, they're not trying to flip properties, they're in their own homes. We've got to make sure that they can get the kinds of help that they need to stay in their homes and make the payments and live out the American dream that is so important to so many people.

MR. WILLIAMS: Time is up, Senator. We're going to get some more e-mail questions from Natalie Morales.

MS. MORALES: All right. And this one is directed to Senator Obama. It comes from a resident of Miami, Florida. "As a middle- class retiree whose primary source of income is dividends, capital gains from stock investments, what, if any, safeguards would you put in place to protect us from your proposed reversal of the Bush tax cuts on these investment vehicles?"

And then if we need additional stimulation, we should look at tax rebates for middle class and working families, not for the wealthy, who have already done very well under George Bush.

MR. WILLIAMS: Two bits of housekeeping at this point. I've been asked to remind our candidates that we have a system of lights that they can plainly see. The yellow one starts flashing -- (laughter) -- the yellow one starts flashing when they're starting to run out of time, and the red one starts flashing when they are out of time. And another reminder that only seven feet separates us from the candidates. (Laughter.)

Now to that segment we promised earlier. We asked the candidates and their campaigns to come here tonight prepared with two questions, one for each of their opposition candidates. It's not our intention that these be novelty or at all throwaway questions, but that they be real questions. And we should know right away here whether this was a good or a very bad idea. (Laughter.)

Senator Edwards, I would like to start with you. A question for Senator Obama and a question for Senator Clinton.

MR. EDWARDS: I get to do both to begin with?

MR. WILLIAMS: Sure.

MR. EDWARDS: (Laughs.) Okay.

Well, let me start this question. This is about campaign finances. And let me start it by saying the obvious, which is, all three of us have raised a great deal of money in this campaign, so this is not preachy or holier-than-thou in any possible way.

What we know is that all three of us want to do something about health care in this country. We also know that until recently, Senator Clinton had raised more money from drug companies and insurance companies than any candidate, Democrat or Republican, until you passed her, Senator Obama, recently to go to number one.

My question is, do you think these people expect something for this money?

Why do they give it? Do they think that it's for good government? Why do they do it?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, let's be clear, John. I just want to make sure that we understand. I don't take money from federal lobbyists. I don't take money from PACs.

MR. EDWARDS: As I don't either.

SEN. OBAMA: As you don't either.

What happens is, is that you've got -- if you've got a mid-level executive at a drug company or insurance company who is inspired by my message of change, and they send me money, then that's recorded as money from the drug or the insurance industry, even though it's not organized, coordinated or in any way subject to the problems that you see when lobbyists are given money. But -- and I'm proud of the fact that I've raised more money from small donors than anybody else, and that we're getting 25, 50, $100 donations, and we've done very well doing it that way.

Now, what I'm also proud of is the fact that in reducing special interest lobbying, I alone of the candidates here have actually taken away the power of lobbyists. Part of the reason that you know who's bundling money for various candidates is because of a law I passed this year which says, lobbyists, if you are taking money from anybody and putting it together and then giving it to a member of Congress, that has to be disclosed. Ultimately what I'd like to see is a system of public financing of campaigns, and I'm a cosponsor of the proposal that's in the Senate right now.

That's what we have to fight for.

In the meantime, what I'm very proud of is to make sure that we continue to make progress at the federal level to push back the influence that lobbyists have right now. And that's something that I'm going to continue to work on.

MR. WILLIAMS: Now, I've been told in midstream here, Senator Edwards, I have to take away one of your options. We were -- we apparently told the campaigns bring one question for an opponent, which now brings us to you, Senator Clinton.

SEN. CLINTON: (Chuckles.)

MR. WILLIAMS: So you get your choice on, either side.

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I -- I want to ask Senator Obama to join me in doing something. You know, we both very much want to convince President Bush -- which is not easy to do -- in the remaining year to end the war in Iraq, to change direction.

It appears that not only is he refusing to do that, but that he has continued to say he can enter into an agreement with the Iraqi government, without bringing it for approval to the United States Congress, that would continue America's presence in Iraq long after President Bush leaves office. I find that absolutely unacceptable, and I think we have to do everything we can to prevent President Bush from binding the hands of the next president.

So I have introduced legislation that clearly requires President Bush to come to the United States Congress -- it is not enough, as he claims, to go to the Iraqi parliament -- but to come to the United States Congress to get anything that he's trying to do, including permanent bases, numbers of troops, all the other commitments he's talking about as he's traveling in that region.

And I -- I want to ask, Senator Obama, if you will cosponsor my legislation to try to rein in President Bush so that he doesn't commit this country to his policy in Iraq, which both of us are committed to end.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think, you know, we -- we can work on this, Hillary, because I -- I don't think -- (laughter) -- you know, the -- we got unity in the Democratic Party, I hope, on this.

The notion that President Bush could somehow tie the hands of the next president I think is contrary to how our democracy's supposed to work, and the voices of the American people who spoke out in 2006 and I expect will speak out again in 2008.

I have opposed this war consistently. I have put forward a plan that will get our troops out by the end of 2009. And we already saw today reports that the Iraqi minister suggests that we're going to be in there at least until 2018. 2018, 10 years -- a decade-long commitment. Currently, we are spending nine (billion dollars) to $10 billion a month. And the notion is that we are going to sustain that at the same time as we're neglecting what we see happening in Afghanistan right now, where you have a luxury hotel in Kabul that was blown up by militants and the situation continues to worsen.

My first job as president of the United States is going to be to call in the Joint Chiefs of Staff and say, "You've got a new mission," and that is to responsibly, carefully, but deliberately start to phase out our involvement there and to make sure that we are putting the onus on the Iraqi government to come together and do what they need to do to arrive at peace.

WILLIAMS: If I could just interrupt, here, before I give you your question -- would the other two of you join in the 2009 pledge that Senator Obama has made, concerning the withdrawal of American troops?

CLINTON: Oh, yes, I'm on record as saying exactly that, as soon as I become president, we will start withdrawing within 60 days. We will move as carefully and responsibly as we can, one to two brigades a month, I believe, and we'll have nearly all the troops out by the end of the year, I hope.

WILLIAMS: Senator Edwards?

EDWARDS: I think I've actually, among the three of us, been the most aggressive and said that I will have all combat troops out in the first year that I'm president of the United States. I will end combat missions. And while I'm president, there will be no permanent military bases in Iraq.

RUSSERT: In September, we were in New Hampshire together, and I asked the three of you if you would pledge to have all troops out of Iraq by the end of your first term.

All three of you said, you will not take that pledge. I'm hearing something much different tonight.

OBAMA: No, no, no. There's nothing different, Tim.

(LAUGHTER)

I want to make sure...

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: No, no. I think this is important because it was reported as if we were suggesting that we would continue the war until 2013. Your question was, could I guarantee all troops would be out of Iraq. I have been very specific in saying that we will not have permanent bases there. I will end the war as we understand it in combat missions.

But that we are going to have to protect our embassy. We're going to have to protect our civilians. We're engaged in humanitarian activity there. We are going to have to have some presence that allows us to strike if Al Qaida is creating bases inside of Iraq.

So I cannot guarantee that we're not going to have a strategic interest that I have to carry out as commander-in-chief to maintain some troop presence there, but it is not going to be engaged in a war and it will not be this sort of permanent bases and permanent military occupation that George Bush seems to be intent on.

CLINTON: It's not only George Bush.

CLINTON: I just want to add here...

RUSSERT: But you both will have a presence?

CLINTON: Well, I think that what Barack is what John and I also meant at that same time, because, obviously, we have to be responsible, we have to protect our embassy, we do need to make sure that, you know, our strategic interests are taken care of.

But it's not only George Bush. The Republican candidates running for the presidency are saying things that are very much in line with president Bush.

You know, Senator McCain said the other day that we might have troops there for 100 years, Barack.

I mean, they have an entirely different view than we do about what we need to have happening as soon as we get a Democrat elected president.

RUSSERT: Thirty seconds for Senator Edwards.

EDWARDS: I just want to say, it is dishonest to suggest that you're not going to have troops there to protect the embassy. That's just not the truth.

It may be great political theater and political rhetoric, but it's not the truth.

EDWARDS: There is, however, a difference between us on this issue. And I don't think it's subtle. The difference is, I will have all combat troops out in the first year that I'm president, and there will be no further combat missions, and there will be no permanent military bases.

WILLIAMS: Senator Obama.

OBAMA: I just want to pick up on what John said, because we've had this discussion before. John, are you saying that you're -- I don't know if I'm using my question here, but...

WILLIAMS: I think you are.

OBAMA: Well, I've got to be careful, then.

(LAUGHTER)

Instead of phrasing it that way...

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Oh, no, no, no, no.

OBAMA: Let me...

WILLIAMS: That sounded like the start of a question to me.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: Look, I think it's important to understand that either you are willing to say that you may go after terrorist bases inside of Iraq if they should form, in which case there would potentially be a combat aspect to that, obviously, or you're not.

OBAMA: And, you know, if you're not, then that could present some problems in terms of the long-term safety and security of the United States of America. So I just wanted to make sure that we got that clarification. EDWARDS: Is that a question?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I think we've ruled it a question.

EDWARDS: My answer to that is, as long as you keep combat troops in Iraq, you continue the occupation. If you keep military bases in Iraq, you're continuing the occupation. The occupation must end. As respects Al Qaida, public enemy number one, they're responsible for about 10 percent of the violence inside Iraq according to the reports.

I would keep a quick reaction force in Kuwait in case it became necessary, but that is different, Barack, than keeping troops stationed inside.

OBAMA: John...

EDWARDS: Excuse -- let me finish, please.

OBAMA: I'm sorry.

EDWARDS: That is different than keeping troops stationed inside Iraq, because keeping troops stationed inside Iraq -- combat troops -- and continuing combat missions, whether it's against Al Qaida or anyone else, at least from my perspective, is a continuation of the occupation. And I think a continuation of the occupation continues the problem, not just in reality, but in perception that America's occupying the country.

OBAMA: Let me suggest, I think there's a distinction without a difference here. If it is appropriate for us to keep that strike force outside of Iraq, then that obviously would be preferable.

The point is, at some point you might have that capacity, and that's the -- that's the clarification I want to make sure...

WILLIAMS: Having come close to settling that, we're going to take another one of our breaks.

When we come back, we'll get to some more domestic issues, when we continue live from Las Vegas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: And we are back, live, in Las Vegas. We promised going into the break that we would return with a discussion on domestic issues.

WILLIAMS: This is of a type -- and just before the break, we got onto things military. We're going to start this off with a continuation of the questioning by Tim Russert.

RUSSERT: Senator Clinton, I'll start with you. The volunteer Army, many believe, disproportionate in terms of poor and minority who participate in our armed forces.

There's a federal statute on the books which says that, if a college or university does not provide space for military recruiters or provide a ROTC program for its students, it can lose its federal funding.

Will you vigorously enforce that statute?

CLINTON: Yes, I will. You know, I think that the young men and women who voluntarily join our all-volunteer military are among the best of our country.

I want to do everything I can, as president, to make sure that they get the resources and the help that they deserve. I want a new, 21st-century G.I. Bill of Rights so that our young veterans can get the money to get to college and to buy a home and start a business.

And I've worked very hard, on the Senate Armed Services Committee, to, you know, try to make up for some of the negligence that we've seen from the Bush administration.

You know, Tim, the Bush administration sends mixed messages. They want to recruit and retain these young people to serve our country and then they have the Pentagon trying to take away the signing bonuses when a soldier gets wounded and ends up in the hospital, something that I'm working with a Republican senator to try to make sure never can happen again.

CLINTON: So I think we should recognize that national service of all kinds is honorable and its essential to the future of our country. I want to expand civilian national service.

But I think that everyone should make available an opportunity for a young man or woman to be in ROTC, to be able to join the military and I'm going to do everything I can to support the men and women in the military and their families.

RUSSERT: Of the top 10 rated schools, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, they do not have ROTC programs on campus.

Should they?

CLINTON: Well, there are ways they can work out fulfilling that obligation. But they should certainly not do anything that either undermines or disrespects the young men and women who wish to pursue a military career.

RUSSERT: Senator Obama, same question.

Will you vigorously enforce a statute which says colleges must allow military recruiters on campus and provide ROTC programs?

OBAMA: Yes. One of the striking things, as you travel around the country, you go into rural communities and you see how disproportionally they are carrying the load in this war in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan.

OBAMA: And it is not fair. Now, the volunteer Army, I think, is a way for us to maintain excellence. And if we are deploying our military wisely, then a voluntary army is sufficient, although I would call for an increase in our force structure, particularly around the Army and the Marines, because I think that we've got to put an end to people going on three, four, five tours of duty and the strain on families is enormous. I meet them every day.

But I think that the obligation to serve exists for everybody, and that's why I've put forward a national service program that is tied to my tuition credit for students who want to go to college. You get $4000 every year to help you go to college.

In return, you have to engage in some form of national service. Military service has to be an option.

OBAMA: We have to have civilian options as well. Not just the Peace Corps, but one of the things that we need desperately are people who are in our foreign service who are speaking foreign languages can be more effective in a lot of the work that's going to be require that may not be hand-to-hand combat but is going to be just as critical in ensuring our long-term safety and security.

RUSSERT: This statute's been on the books for some time, Senator. Will you vigorously enforce the statute to cut off federal funding to the school that does not provide military recruiters and a ROTC program?

EDWARDS: Yes, I will. But I have to say, it's not enough to talk about the extraordinary service of men and women who are wearing the uniform and have worn the uniform of the United States of America. Tonight across this country, 200,000 men and women who wore our uniform and served this country patriotically, veterans, will go to sleep under bridges and on grates. We have men and women coming back from Iraq with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, other kind of emotional problems; many with serious physical injuries.

EDWARDS: We have families who are here at home, while they serve in Iraq, who are having a terrible time paying for child care, paying the bills. We have reservists and members of the Guard who go to serve and get paid

here you go...
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/16/breaking_the_sound_barrier_democracy_now