The real problem with Obama's Reagan remark...

is that in this case, the outrage is real. He tossed a Reagan reference into a speech heard by people who had been personally hurt by Reagan's policies of exclusion and union bashing.And to state now he was commenting ONLY on the "trajectory of Change" and not whether the change was a negative or positive for those effected is disingenious.
The proof of this is as simple as it is clear-picture Obama giving the same speech in Germany or Russia or Cambodia and then mentioning Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot and then never stating a value judgement on the effects of their "change". Now picture you think he did it to gain support from followers of one of the three.
We are Democrats here with lifetimes of experience and memories.Our memories of Reagan were memories of the debasement of the rule of law and assaults on the middle class and if you cite those without a reference to values judgements I would expect you to be called on it.

And nothing to be outraged about.

an opion based on this rather than their hate for Reagan.

who lived under that mtf and lost jobs and unions and friends to aids ..not to be outraged!

i am damn outraged..and nothing you say will stop my outrage!

I was a flight crew for a major airline when reagan was pres and desrroyed not only Patco ..but my union as well!

i hated his guts and still do!

fly

ever..so go sell that bullshit to someone else.''

you may want to be naive and sneaky like Obama..but it won't sell with me!

he said what he said..he knew damn well it would be a hot button subject with dems..and those of us who lived through it..only an ignoramous would believe this would buy Obama strength...and not controversy within this party.

so who was he playing to ?? repigs ..or us..not me thank you!! fuck what he said..i won't buy it.

fly

my dad was an ATC in 1981. Reagan destroyed my family. No Democrat should ever invoke the name of the most vile, evil, soulless bastard ever to sit in the Oval Office as anything worth aspiring to in any fashion.

on the political culture we're in today.

It's like jumping on someone for mentioning WWI in history class because their father died in the war.

Kennedy and Reagan who fundamentally changed the country and juxtaposing it against the era of Nixon and Clinton when the country had a viewpoint that was based on the change of their applicable predecessor.

He's saying the country is ready for a fundamental change in viewpoint that will change the trajectory of the country.

He's not promoting Reagan anymore than he is promoting Kennedy.

It's a valid point.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2008/01/obama_reagan_changed_direction_of_country_in_way_bill_clinton_didnt.php

Ronald Reagan was not a "great president" for any reason whatsoever. His "success" is nothing to be emulated or looked upon with admiration, for any reason whatsoever.

He mentions Kennedy within the same context.

19:50

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026

thanks but no thanks.

end of story.

fly

:hug:

:cry:

And reflects on your candidate.

Which is why you are seeing so many turn against Obama.

Grow a heart.

It's like being outraged that a history teacher discussed vietnam because your father died in it.

Just about like Obama.

I didn't like him before because of this heartlessness..... now I would NEVER vote for him.

Proud of what you've accomplished with your hard heart?

Care to turn off a few more? If so, keep going...

I hear ya... and I would NEVER accuse others of faking outrage. I might think they'd misunderstood, or were reading it wrong... but flat-out accuse them of faking?

That's just fucking shitty.

outraged about.

That's the word you used.

And it's been said many, many times in this forum... "faux" outrage, crap like that... so that word comes into this conversation with lots of context attached.

Obama was my second choice.

19:50

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026

or to show he was talking about evil agents of change too, he might have added in Mao or Pol Pot...

Instead the Reagan thing is thrown in with no context. It has angered many people... it's not dishonest.

He was talking about the relative desires of majorities of Americans within a given political context.

if this was all there was to it, it'd go away in a couple news cycles... it's just one comment.

But then there's the comments in his book... and the "party of ideas"...

:eyes:

the difference.

but unfortunately lost on the sheeple who chant "hope and change" while ignoring the facts on the ground.

If Obama had a point to make -- and what it was I just can't imagine, especially in light of his audience -- it got hopelessly lost in the muddle that comes with a lack of specifics and a slippery grasp on reality and facts. For so long he's been cheered for giving great speeches short on specifics and long on inspirational gobbley-gook that's never been near a fact-check microscope and now, with the race tightening, those kinds of "kumbahya" speeches just won't cut it.

I suspect he's having a bit of a time adjusting to the new paradigm.

Godwin's Law kicked in early on this thread.

At some point, even Hitler "wasn't Hitler yet."

But you'll buy Stalin and Pol Pot?

is that Hillary and her supporters are bashing Obama over his Reagan comment when she lists Ronnie as one of her FAVORITE Presidents...

"Her list of favorite presidents - Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan - demonstrates how she thinks. As expected, Bill Clinton was also included on the aforementioned list."

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4674

...when you compare Ronald Reagan with Hitler--a man who was responsible for the death of millions.

Please. I am really starting to think that some of the people in our party are completely coming unglued.

Read Obama's statement. He was talking about Reagan being a president who caused a paradigm shift
in politics. Obama talked about how Nixon and Clinton were unable to do this. Obama wants to be
that same kind of president---changing the trajectory" of America, because America is once again
primed for a similar paradigm shift.

All you have to do is read Obama's platform, to understand that Ronald Reagan would completely reject
Obama's ideas---universal healthcare, increasing taxes on the rich, ending the war, etc.

What I thought was brilliant, and it practically went unnoticed--is how he completely relegated
Bill Clinton to the shelf with Richard Nixon. He basically sideswiped the Clinton era and marginalized
it.

I wish people would read and pay attention, instead of going into overdrive at the mere mention of
Ronald Reagan. People who exaggerate and misinterpret Obama's comments look like simpletons
and drama queens.

But there ARE over 1 million dead Iraqis and Habeus Corpus, the Geneva Conventions and most of the Bill of Rights has been "disappeared" and not as the result of just our one other simpleton but as the culmination of plans begun by Reagan.

bullshit,.reagan was responsible for many murders of human beings world wide..

and to think other wise ..you are only fooling yourself.

fly

He wanted to stir things up.
It just serves to divide and weaken the Party and THAT, My Friends , Is POOR LEADERSHIP!

it still seems to sail right over some heads though.

Young to "get it!"..i have had enough of this bullshit..don't tell me a damn thing about St Ronnie..and if Obama is too young to get what St Ronnie did to us..or he is playing this to get repugs..fuck him then!

I will never forget or forgive St Ronnie..too many people i know died because of that fucker..and too many lives were destroyed by him..

fuck St Ronnie..and fuck anyone who thinks they are going to use him and think we will over look it or let them play games with us over bullshit about StRonnie.


if the young want to buy this bullshit..fine with me..but do not for one moment think i am going to over look this crap.
fly

if it's a tactic to get CA votes (which some pundits were saying yesterday) then he very well might.

That'd be... interesting.

out of him..i know since i got calls from my son and many friends in CA telling me about it.

( used to live in CA for 14 yrs..)

no it won't sell today in CA..

fly

That gasbag O'Donnell was on Countdown saying what a smart idea it was... cause they just loooooove Saint Ronnie in CA. Oh, and also that Edwards is irrelevant.

That guy needs to go back to making bad tv shows and stay away from politics.

No one seems pissed at Edwards for doing the exact same thing last May...

Double Standard, or Short Memories?

Sorry... this has been tried repeatedly... not many are buying that one, either.

You can judge for yourself, however:

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070901faessay86502-p0/john-edwards/reengaging-with-the-world.html

"For 50 years, presidents from Truman and Dwight Eisenhower to Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton built strong alliances and deepened the world's respect for us. We gained that respect by viewing our military strength not as an end in itself but as a means to protect a system of laws and institutions that gave hope to billions across the globe. In avoiding the temptation to rule as an empire, we hastened the fall of a corrupt and evil one in the Soviet Union. The lesson is that we cannot only be warriors; we must be thinkers and leaders as well."
...
"Millions cheered in Berlin when President John F. Kennedy stood with them and said, "Ich bin ein Berliner." Millions of people imprisoned behind the Iron Curtain silently cheered the day President Reagan declared, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Even if these ordinary men and women did not always agree with our policies, they looked to our president and saw a person -- and a nation -- they could trust.
...
"We also need to renew our commitment to engagement and diplomacy in order to solve problems before they occur, rather than scrambling to deal with crises after they have erupted. With engagement comes far greater knowledge and the potential for progress and even trust. Presidents Kennedy and Reagan talked with Soviet leaders at the height of the Cold War, in both cases turning back major threats to our national security. We need to do the same with Iranian and North Korean leaders."

again, this has been done before... not convincing anyone.

:hi:

but it's not praise.

it still would have stung... badly... but I could have just got over it and let it go after a while.

But combined with those quotes from his book... and the "party of ideas" stuff. It's not rubbing me the right way at all... maybe he's done the math and others will appreciate it... I guess time will tell.

Trying to compare him to Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot is ridiculous.

Reagan Advisers See A Bit Of Their Former Boss In Obama

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/17/reagan-adviser...

Reagan Advisers See A Bit Of Their Former Boss In Obama - Politics on The Huffington Post

BY Sam Stein
The Huffington Post

SNIP:

DO READ IT ALL!!...

Added Peter Robinson, a research fellow at the Hoover Institute and a speechwriter for Reagan's White House: "I do believe Obama is right in looking back at the election of 1980 and saying that was a historical inflection point. Of course there is a certain amount of self-flattery involved in that statement, but he might be right." Robinson added: "I do think Ronald Reagan would have found Barack Obama appealing."

Others former Reagan officials said they saw aspects of Reagan in Obama's attempt to present himself as the candidate outside the status quo.

"A lot of people of different persuasions see him as the only candidate in the race who has much chance of creating any change. My friends don't see much difference between Hillary Clinton and McCain and George Bush for that matter. Whether it is justified or not, I don't know. But there has been some sort of feeling that among people in the running, that Obama might actually change the status quo," said Paul Craig Roberts, the man tasked with overseeing Reaganomics. "I think that's the way Reagan came across, that he was not the status quo president. And of course whenever someone comes into office they turn into the status quo, but it takes a little longer to get that way when you don't start out there."

Of course, with any historical analysis there are multiple interpretations. And some former Reagan advisers, even those who see a bit of the 1980 Gipper in Obama's current candidacy, point to sharp contrasts between the two.

"The dynamics are entirely different," said Bruce Fein, Reagan's deputy attorney general. "Reagan's campaign was built on expanding and strengthening the confidence of the United States at a time when it was at its lowest depth, and we had a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union... We have an opposite problem today. We have an arrogance. We have a government that feels it is too superior... We have an executive branch that is bloated and ballooned suggesting that Osama bin Laden is the equivalent of the Soviet Union... I think comparison shows he is living in a different mental universe than people who know history... It seems to me is the same old thing other than the mindless statement of change. What does that even mean?"

"The dynamics are entirely different," said Bruce Fein, Reagan's deputy attorney general. "Reagan's campaign was built on expanding and strengthening the confidence of the United States at a time when it was at its lowest depth, and we had a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union... We have an opposite problem today. We have an arrogance. We have a government that feels it is too superior... We have an executive branch that is bloated and ballooned suggesting that Osama bin Laden is the equivalent of the Soviet Union... I think comparison shows he is living in a different mental universe than people who know history... It seems to me is the same old thing other than the mindless statement of change. What does that even mean?"


Yeah, that's gonna help.

going to tell me what Obama said or what he meant..no way no how..i lived through those times..i saw friends and co-workers die from AIDS when st ronnie ignored it..

my husband and i almost lost our home because we were transfered and could'n't sell our home for over 1 year and finally sold it for less than it was built for.

and we were one of the lucky ones..i saw neighbors commit suicide because they lost their good paying jobs and couldn't get a damn job.

I saw many who had retirement investments that reagan fucked and made worthless..and the stories of suicides never made the front pages!..my hubby and i had time in our lives to recoup what we lost..but many seniors did not.

I won't forget it..never ..and i certainly will never forgive it or anyone who invokes that MTF'ers name ..

not in my dem party.

fly