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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:36 PM
Original message
Winning ugly

Winning ugly

US elections 2008: Hillary Clinton's victory in Nevada may be a hollow one if her husband continues to hurt her campaign

Michael Tomasky

January 19, 2008

Well, it wasn't big and it sure wasn't pretty - in fact it was downright ugly - but Hillary Clinton's win in Nevada gives her an advantage now over Barack Obama in the Democratic contest.

The effect of the result is perhaps most easily grasped by envisioning the counterfactual. Let's say Obama had won. In that case, the media would have been full of reports about how the underdog (which he assuredly is) had regained momentum, had knocked the powerful Clinton machine back on its heels a second time, and seemed primed to win next Saturday's match-up in South Carolina. In that state, and in the 22 states voting on February 5, sit hundreds or thousands of political operatives who, if Obama had won, would be on the phone with one another right now asking if they should go ahead and get with Obama, emboldening one another to buck the mighty Clintons. But now Clinton has held that effect off - at least for a week, perhaps for more, perhaps for good.

But she has held off such talk at a price. First, the win was narrow - not big enough for her to take a large helping of momentum into South Carolina. (While she won 51% of the vote compared with Obama's 45%, he managed to pick up more convention delegates.) I would expect that she'll still need a convincing win in South Carolina to start putting real distance between herself and Obama. And, as we know, it's the only state where he's been consistently ahead in polls.

The Nevada results can change that, which we'll start seeing in a new batch of polls in the next two or three days. Whether John Edwards stays in the race after today's anemic showing in Nevada may have a big impact on how things turn out next Saturday, as it's generally thought that he takes more votes from Clinton there.

Clinton may also have paid a price by dint of the fact that this was a dirty, bitter race. Obama didn't completely wrap himself in glory, and he probably erred in praising Ronald Reagan and calling the Republican Party the party of "ideas" in recent American history. But the Clinton campaign twisted those words and a lot more.

I don't know who on this planet has the stature to go face-to-face with Bill Clinton and look him in the eye and tell him he behaved in a discreditable fashion. His wife? His buddy Vernon Jordan? Whoever it is, someone had better stop him. He campaigned against a fellow Democrat no differently than if Obama had been Newt Gingrich. The Clinton campaign may conclude that, numerically and on balance, Bill helped. But, trust me, to the thousands of committed progressives who supported him when he really needed it, who went to the mat for him at his moment of (largely self-inflicted) crisis but who now happen to be supporting someone other than his wife, he's done himself a tremendous amount of damage.

more



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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing Bill or Hillary did or said compares with
"Obama didn't completely wrap himself in glory, and he probably erred in praising Ronald Reagan and calling the Republican Party the party of "ideas" in recent American history."

The writer says that the "Clinton campaign twisted those words and a lot more."

The Clinton campaign didn't have to twist the words.

Obama's words speak for themselves.

And I haven't heard Obama take back any of the words. Did I miss something?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. "probably" objectivity. Definitely: "Clinton campaign twisted those words and a lot more,"
and he nailed the Bill Clinton problem.

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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Obama's whole quote is in another thread
He said that the 60's and 70's were a time of excess.

I came of age in those decades. Those were the years when women and African Americans began to get rights.

Either Obama is ignorant of history or he was just trying to win the votes of rural Nevada.

Attacking the Clintons for Obama's mistake is right out of the Repub handbook.

I intend to vote for Obama in the general if he wins the nomination, but I don't like the fact that he sounds like a Repub!

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I think the Nazi Party was a party of ideas. Does that make me a Nazi?
I can't believe people are that upset about what Obama said. It's absurd.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. make that claim you should damned well post exactly what Obama
said. Otherwise, you are simply not credible.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Here's the Obama quote:
"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times. I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

As another poster in another thread said, the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s refers to those people who were anti-Vietnam War and pro-women's rights and pro-African American rights. As someone who lived through that time, and was anti-Vietnam War (which killed a lot more people than Iraq, though I'm against that war too), I object. As someone who experienced gender discrimination that my daughters can't imagine, I object. As someone who witnessed many blatant African American discrimination cases, I object.

I also object to the idea that government had grown and grown and there wasn't much sense of accountablility. There was 1000% more accountability in government before REagan than there is now under Bush and the privatization that Reagan started.

I can't believe that people are being distracted by attacks on the Clintons from what Obama actually said.

I will still vote for Obama in the general if he gets the nomination, but I am very fearful of how he will govern, if elected.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. LOL! There's NO praise of Reagan ther e. That's called analysis.
And this:

"As another poster in another thread said, the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s refers to those people who were anti-Vietnam War and pro-women's rights and pro-African American rights. As someone who lived through that time, and was anti-Vietnam War (which killed a lot more people than Iraq, though I'm against that war too), I object. As someone who experienced gender discrimination that my daughters can't imagine, I object. As someone who witnessed many blatant African American discrimination cases, I object."

Is utter bullshit- on a par with the Goldwater Girl crap about Hillary.

Too pathetic for words. Really.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Are you saying that these words do not praise Reagan
"he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

Are you saying that Reagan, the paid spokesperson for the largest corporation of the time--GE--was about entrepreneurship?

Are you saying that corporations did not prosper at the expense of unions under Reagan?

Are you saying that the gender and racial discrimination I witnessed is bullshit?

Are you sure you are a Democrat and not a Reagan Democrat, i.e. Republican?
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I hardly think the media darling Obama can claim "underdog."That
status is reserved for John Edwards. Damn if they don't steal everything from that man!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's easy, Michael Tomasky..
Obama has the stature to go against bill clinton.

I've like Michael Tomasky since he wrote really good Progressive articles for New York magazine!
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Kucinich4America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. "I wanna be on top, forever on the up, and damn the competition...."
WINNING UGLY
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

I wanna be on top
Forever on the up
And damn the competition
I never play it fair
I never turn a hair
Just like the politicians
I wrap my conscience up
I wanna win that cup
And get my money baby
But back in the dressing room
The other side is weeping
And we're winning, winning ugly
And we're winning, winning ugly

And we're heading for the heartbreak
Heading for the blues
We're heading for the heartbreak
Heading for the blues
And we're winning, winning ugly
And we're winning, winning ugly

I will not act unkind
I will not be so blind
I will not walk so proud
Come down from off my cloud
How can I live my life this way?
Beauty is staring me in the face
Ain't that the truth
Ain't that the truth
Hold on, come on girl
Hold on

Look out for number one
My country right or wrong
Let the devil take the hindmost
I was brought up to cheat
So long as the referee wasn't looking
I'm never wrong at all
I always fight the call
I don't admit it
But back in the dressing room
The other side is screaming
And we're winning, winning ugly, yeah
And we're winning, winning ugly

And we're heading for the heartbreak
Heading for the blues
We're heading for the heartbreak
Heading for the blues
And we're winning, winning ugly

I will not act unkind
I will not be so blind
I will not walk so proud
Come down from off my cloud
How can I live my life this way
Beauty is staring me in the face
Ain't that the truth
Ain't that the truth?
Come on baby, come on girl
A little bit louder
Walk a little bit prouder

And we're winning, winning ugly, that's alright
And we're winning, winning ugly, come on girl
And we're winning, winning ugly
And we're winning, winning ugly, winning ugly
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. I have said it over and over
he...will...not...play...second...fiddle

his ego kids....Bill Clinton, First Lady..ain't gonna happen

and that sucks that he would at the very least subconsciously do something like that to someone he loves, respects and calls his equal

Oh wait.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. His behavior has just been over the top lately.
I don't know if he's subconsciously trying to sabotage her or if he wants to redeem his legacy through her Presidency. Either way, he needs to just. go. away. And take Mark Penn with him.
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fer crissakes.
Barack Obama's campaign has been the most deceitful, sleazy, dishonest thing I've ever seen from someone who claims to be a Democrat. It's been a series of cynical ploys, one after the other, masquerading as a false optimism. The man thinks only "prayerful" women should be allowed to make choices about their own bodies, he hates the unions and he hates the trial lawyers, he spread lies about Paul Krugman on his website, he plans to leave the poorest Americans uninsured, he wants to keep sixty thousand US troops occupying Iraq indefinitely, he worships Ronald Reagan, he thinks Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi haven't done enough to accommodate the Republican minority, and he used Falwellian language to suggest that gay people are "our brothers and sisters" while refusing to condemn gay-bashing bigots.

There are people who actually think he's a liberal.

This article says, "I don't know who on this planet has the stature to go face-to-face with Bill Clinton and look him in the eye and tell him he behaved in a discreditable fashion." When Barack Obama spread hatred of gays and women, when he announced his plan to make life worse for poor people, when he said he wants to keep the Iraq war going on for years and years to come, who looked him in the eye and told him he behaved badly?

Oh right -- Paul Krugman did that, and the Obama smear machine promptly started spreading lies about him.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Fact
Edited on Sun Jan-20-08 06:09 PM by ProSense
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Non
sequitur.

That had nothing to do with Obama's history of lying about liberals, attacking unions, planning to prolong the Iraqi occupation, refusing to condemn organizations that teach LGBT children to hate themselves, or his plans to leave 15 million poor Americans without health care.

Wrong link, maybe?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Here:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Jesus christ, your post sounds like the robocalls that were going out in Nevada last week
According to them, Obama was going to dump nuclear waste on yucca mountain and eliminate the minimum wage too.

Oh, and his middle name is Hussein too.
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. We had an amazing roster of Democratic candidates this year.
And Obama is the most right-wing among them.

If you disagree, then you haven't read his own policies and plans.
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angie_love Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. hahahahaha
It is hard for Obama to win when he has to go up against Bill and Hillary. Its an unfair fight and Bill is losing credibility by the minute. On and thatpoetguy can you post links to the article of which you're talking of that says he wants to keep 60,000 troops in iraq indefinitely? This is so laughable that you're criticizing him for the iraq war when Hillary was the one who authorized the war to begin with. Keep dreaming ok?
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I'm not a Hillary supporter, to begin with.
I have been behind John Edwards for months, and I continue to be behind him.

Obama's supporters are so blind they don't realize that he's more right-wing than half the Republicans. Obama's supporters haven't got a single clue what he stands for. Have you even read his website? I doubt it, or you'd know he plans to continue Iraq indefinitely. Here's what it says on his own damn website:

"Under the Obama plan, American troops may remain in Iraq or the region. These American troops will protect American diplomatic and military personnel in Iraq, and continue striking at al Qaeda in Iraq. If Iraq makes political progress and their security forces are not sectarian, we would also continue training othe Iraqi Security Forces."

From the Center for American Progress: "The Center for American Progress estimates that such an undertaking in Iraq would require a force of around 60,000 troops." No one, Obama or otherwise, has disputed that number. Obama's plan continues to fight nonexistent terrorists in Iraq. Edwards' plan doesn't involve any bogus, Reagan-esque "training" -- that's what Reagan said US troops were doing in Nicaragua and El Salvador -- Edwards wants to bring those troops home within 12 months, leaving only enough to guard the embassy.

If Obama's supporters actually listened to his policies for once, he wouldn't have any supporters -- except Republicans who dislike Giuliani's stance on gays and women's rights. Obama's policies are right-wing to the core. He's far more conservative than Hillary on a host of important issues, from the economy, health care, women's rights, gay rights, and so on and so forth.

I don't expect any of you Obama supporters to start paying attention to his own words, his own plans, or his own policies. If he's elected, you guys will hate him with a passion.





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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. No,
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Obama HAS ANNOUNCED HIS PLANS.
He has told us what he intends to do.

And it's awful.

Is that so hard to understand?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bill

Bill

01.19.08
By Josh Marshall

I don't have a good answer to this. I don't expect Bill Clinton, who's not a shrinking violet, to be neutral in his own wife's nomination campaign. But I have to admit that the intensity of Bill Clinton's attacks on Barack Obama really makes me uncomfortable. I know there are a lot of Democratic party insiders, mostly older than I am, who don't like it either. But I wonder if there's not some generational aspect to it for people my age. I was in my early 20s in 1992. And really throughout the 90s you couldn't be a bigger Clinton guy than I was. So it's hard to see that history (and it's quite some history) leveraged to muscle this campaign.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick! n/t
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