Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Now that more people nationwide have voted for Hillary

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:03 AM
Original message
Now that more people nationwide have voted for Hillary
Isn't it time to admit that she's polarizing, unpopular, and has too few chromosomes?

Besides, she mostly wins in large states that the Democrats can win, some of her lead comes from former states (FL and MI), and she wins in primaries and not in the pleasingly undemocratic caucuses.

WWTSBQ?

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Umm...she hasn't and stuff...
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. ...
Edited on Thu May-01-08 09:13 AM by casus belli
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mezzo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. um...she has. shove your stuff.
:think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Please provide a link to where it shows that she has more people voting for her in legal primaries..
...you know...ones that actually count...

I'll save you the bother, you won't be able to find it because it isn't true...

Feel free to go take a flying Cheney at the moon alright? :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Um...she hasn't. You need to learn to count.
And I've got a good suggestion at what you can shove, and where...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Nope. Not including caucus states. EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. a bucket of truth!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. even the part about missing chromosomes?
I'm not an HRC defender by any stretch, but I will say she's a diploid organism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. Former states? Deranged much?
Edited on Thu May-01-08 09:09 AM by Romulox
:eyes: :rofl:

edit: My sarcasm meter is due for service. :blush:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Screw you .....
This is only if you count Florida & Michigan states that
Obama did not run in or was even on the ballot. Also
much of Hillary's vote has come from right wingers who
want to hurt Obama and will never vote for Hillary in the
general election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. ...
Edited on Thu May-01-08 09:13 AM by casus belli
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excuse me, but Hillary isn't ahead in the popular vote
Please stop using Hillary-math to make those sorts of calculations. Hillary is aprox. a half million votes behind Obama.

If you honestly think that counting two disqualified states as part of the popular vote, sorry, but that doesn't fly. Hell, Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, and Florida's voting process was a sham and a shame. Neither state should count unless they do a full and fair redo of the primary vote.

Oh, Obama has won the most delegates and states also, and I'm certain that he can pick up the big states like NY, CA, IL, etc. in the fall.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Is it not time to admit that the Left is leading the Democratic
Party over a cliff and the DC types are joing the parade????

Choosing to lose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I see ZERO evidence that Obama represents "the Left"--he is a centrist. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. In Politics, you do not have to present evidence. GOP repeats
daily--Obama is the most liberal Senator tying him to MoveOn.
MoveOn and Daily Kos.

The Betrayus Ad is slipped into conversations.

I am not saying this right or fair.

The fact that 4 states are running ads against our Representatives
from those states. The Ads are tieng the Rep. to Obama.

According to a pollster along with Rasmussen explained the White
Vote that supported Obama has flipped since the Ads and the
Wright flare-up.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. No, that would be where THE FAR RIGHT (DLC) has been holding this party hostage
for the last quarter-century. And it is OVER.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. Fucking Repuke asshole memes
Why are you doing their work for them? What's "left"? All you jackasses can say is that it's "extreme," not what it actually is. Is it universal health care? Taking care of our own infrastructure instead of destroying that of other countries? Defending the rights of women, minorities LGBT people? What, exactly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. She has not won the popular vote and it's impossible to accurately
tally it anyway. No matter how much you want to believe that MI, in particular, was legit, it clearly wasn't as Obama's name was not on the ballot. And no, it doesn't matter that he took it off of the ballot. The MI primary was invalid. Furthermore, he can win states that she doesn't have a prayer in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Can we get that truth to stick? It's impossible to tally it accurately.
I'm a bit picky when it comes to the rules, and I think the rules of the DNC should stand; Michigan and the ever-annoying Florida did as they pleased and shouldn't be seated as a result.

This doesn't negate the fact that many innocent voters deliberately voted for Clinton and aren't being counted. By any measure, she had significantly greater support in Florida.

The claim made repeatedly by the more tiresome of the Obama supporters that he's "won the popular vote" is used as PROOF that the people want him more than they want her. This simply can't be determined, and the very reality of that shows the underlying truth: neither really has a clear mandate or anything close to it. Thus, the balance is still to be tipped, and using false claims to shout down any opposition as filthy lying thievery and an attempt to quash democracy is misleading and disruptive.

Hopefully this assessment will stand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. another HRC supporter who wants to disenfranchise Obama supporters in Michigan
The only possible way to spin the numbers to produce more votes for HRC than Obama is to give Hillary credit for votes cast in Michigan and give Obama zero -- in other words to pretend that not a single person in Michigan supports Obama. Only a total partisan or a complete idiot would think than any superdelegate that would be influenced by the popular vote would make a decision based on a pretend world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Perhaps Obama should've thought of that before pandering to Iowa, eh?
At least Barack should own up to saying "screw you" to Michigan voters by voluntarily removing his name from the ballot.

He did so to curry favor with Iowa (red state, btw) voters, and it worked. Now he needs to be grown up enough to live with the consequences of his actions. In other words, you can't pander to Iowa and Michigan simultaneously; Obama made his choice, and if (and this is a BIG if) the Democrats win Iowa this year, he will have his reward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. so you think Superdelegates should just pretend no one in Michigan supports Obama
You do realize that the popular vote is a meaningful metric only to the extent a superdelegate decides to be influenced by it. And no superdelegate is going to pretend that OBama has zero support in Michigan. Reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. This is the fun part! I just want the RULES upheld!
Edited on Thu May-01-08 10:43 AM by Romulox
The same RULES that say Michigan and Florida don't count say that the SDs can vote however they like. If you have a problem with the rules (which everyone agreed to before the primary season, btw!) you should take up the issue after this election cycle.

But quit pretending that the rules that disenfranchize ME are set in stone, but that the rules that may potentially disenfranchize YOU are flexible and can be changed mid-stream, k? :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. where did I say that some rules can be changed mid-stream
I recognize that SDs can vote however they like. I actually think that's a great rule. Indeed, its the rule that allowed Joe Andrew to switch from HRC to Obama.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Your beef is with the "Democratic Party"
Edited on Thu May-01-08 10:33 AM by stillcool47
The "Democratic Party" voted to strip Michigan and Florida of their delegates. And, I know, that you know, that Hillary herself said that the Florida and Michigan elections would not count. It is no longer the case, that if you repeat the lie often enough it will be considered the truth. Not This Time! So Pander This...


Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.



December 1, 2007,
11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.
The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.
The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/



Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...


Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.”
When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates


Potential presidential nominees who did not want to appear on the Michigan January 15, 2008 presidential primary ballot could submit an affidavit with the Secretary of State by 4:00 p.m. on October 9, 2007. The January 15 date violates DNC rules, and five Democrats did submit the required affidavit: Biden, Edwards, Kucinich, Obama and Richardson. Clinton, Dodd and Gravel will appear on the Democratic ballot.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnothp08/mi100907pr.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I don't have a beef--I just want to make sure we all understand WHY Obama wasn't on the ballot
Because he was losing in all the Michigan polls at that time.

(Btw, Dennis Kucinich campaigned in Michigan prior to our primary. BAAAAD example to throw out! :rofl: )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. So did Al Gore & Bill Bradley say "screw you" to Michigan voters in 2000?
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/2000presprim.htm#MI

Michigan pulled the same shit then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Al Gore screwed Michigan when he shilled for NAFTA, MFN/China, WTO, deregulation, etc.
During the Clinton years.

Al Gore is an awful example, really.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. She has too few chromosomes????
Um....I think we could use some basic high school biology here -- or is this now part of sex education and taboo?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
15. The only metric of victory Hillbots can claim involves uncontested primaries
in which she was the only major candidate on the ballot.

Nice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoonerPride Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. DISTRACTION
not interested
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
17. You have not heard the news. The Obamists are going to get what they want or they will stamp their
feet and go all 1968 on us over a candidate and not a war. Oddly the candidate they will stamp their little feet for admires Powell, whose lies at the UN were part of the war getting its start.

1968 was about stopping a war. 2008 is about getting your guy in that admires people that start a war. Stay tuned as Apple will have a special web site that only Obamists can see for more direction on civil disobedience in the 21st century. You know, what to wear, what iPod is most reliable when you pushed into a "protest zone" five miles away.

The new model for Democrats is the "Obama". They cannot piss off the new model demographic as it is the core for all the next elections that require "change." Sadly the "change" thing will be overused after 2008, so a new word will be assigned to another "Obama" model to keep the new treasured consumer.

Prepare for a McCain presidency.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. You really shouldn't be bringing the war into this rubric
After all, it was Hillary who enabled the war, Hillary who has stated repeatedly that she will keep combat troops, going on combat missions throughout her first term, and who has rattled the war saber at Iran, including her latest promise of nuclear nightmare diplomacy against Iran.

As a Hillary supporter, you and your candidate have little room to talk when it comes to the war. That is, after all, one of Hillary's highest negatives. If she gets the nod, then many, if not most of the anti-war left will abandon her precisely because she enabled this war.

Hmmm, sounds like a 1968 scenario to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. they do a lot of faux foot -stamping--they have little else at this point
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. as opposed to the Hillzombies
Edited on Thu May-01-08 02:23 PM by Cheap_Trick
who say they'll vote for McCain, or even better "Never vote for another man again" if Queen Hillary isn't coronated toot sweet.

on edit...And what's this? A HILLARY supporter advocating trouble at the Democratic Convention....whodathunkit?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3291934
"Roseanne Barr, guest host for "American Afternoon" on Air America Radio, told her listeners on Monday to "hop on buses for Denver" and "cause a bunch of trouble."

"We should, a bunch of us, go there and repeat the Democratic Convention from Chicago," Barr said, referring to the 1968 convention that resulted in rioting."
http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_9112189
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. The rules say it's about delegates. That she did NOT get the popular vote is quite irrelevant. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
23. Are y'all still trying to fly this kite?
ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
24. False Premise: More people nationwide have NOT voted for Hillary. Sell it elsewhere. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. You post this bull shit and then you don't respond to anyone. Lame!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. I apologize
I really should spend more time responding to the knee-jerk wailings of the Kool-Aid drinkers who have pissed their Hillary hate all over this pool for months.

I owe them a big debt. When Edwards dropped out of the race, I wasn't sure who to side with, but when I saw the fratboy abusiveness, lying, and self-delusion pervading Obama's base, the decision got much easier.

Tell you what, when there's a day that DU isn't swamped by posts about how Shrillary/Hitlery is a Rethuglican racist intent on destroying the party, I'll be a little more engaging.

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
35. Mostly she's just too uppity
:sarcasm:



And, in a related story: She is behind in every metric except SD's, and that is working itself out nicely. The popular vote argument is specious drivel.

FAIL

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. "Has too few chromosomes" Um...what?
Males and females have the same number of chromosomes? Unless you're talking about Turner's...and I don't recall that being brought up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. My apologies
She has too few chromosome types.

Since you have such a fine scientific mind, why don't you look over the evidence of how Obama has run the truly dirty campaign:

http://attacktimeline.com/


___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 15th 2024, 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC