Here's your chance to call me stupid

:)

Ok, I admit that although I have a minor in economics, I am not any kind of expert in that field. But I do have a sincere question about this gas tax holiday and related issues, so please indulge me for a minute.

Why is everyone so opposed to a gas tax holiday, when it would be proposed in conjunction with a windfall profits tax? Granted, I would like to see price caps included/discussed as well, but at least a windfall profits can act as a sort of price cap by refusing additional profits to the oil companies and transferring them to the government instead. The windfall tax also can more than make up for the revenue lost from the gas tax, so that our infrastructure can still be taken care of (or least taken care of as well as it is now, which doesn't say that much).

Gas taxes, along with payroll and sales taxes, are the most regressive taxes we have, and I would love to see them completely eliminated. I do not believe that should be done in order to "encourage fuel consumption" as some have argued, but instead to provide relief to many people who are actually struggling to make ends meet right now. There are other ways to promote fuel economy. Have you paid any attention to the bankruptcy filings in your are lately? In most places the number of filings have increased quite a bit. Any little bit would help people who are hit the hardest by this unfair REGRESSIVE tax. Yes, I would love to see a complete overhaul of the federal tax system so that we obtain most federal revenues from a truly progressive income tax yet again and simply eliminate the payroll and gas taxes. I do understand that the gas tax holiday and windfall tax are not long term solutions, but they may be the best we can do for right now.

Ok, now for those who say we could never get it passed with the slim majority we have- so what? I agree we might fail, but I also think it would then give us a great campaign issue for the fall. Can you picture the ads of the republican filibuster in favor of big oil that the party and nominee could run this October? I can, which is why I don't understand the calls to keep the powder dry yet again.

Honestly, for the most part I am just seeing a certain candidate's supporters arguing against it because the other candidate proposed it. Both the candidates support the windfall tax, so why not also go a step further and do something about a regressive tax that used to be on the radar for many progressives? At least, I am old enough to remember when we leftists wanted to do away with those kinds of taxes and rely more on income-based taxes based on one's ability to pay. I really don't understand why so many are so adamantly opposed to this idea, so can some of you please enlighten me?

I have to go to work and probably can't check in until later, so I'll say thanks in advance for any responses. :)

First off, neither Clinton nor McCain have ANY support from economists or Congress to pass this, so it's dead in the water to begin with. They're pandering, pure and simple. They are in no position to propose this, but it's not stopping them.
The windfall profits tax sounds attractive, but until someone is elected to replace the dim one, it ain't gonna happen.

that memorialize their plans, that puts it in writing to be considered and scrutinized, proves that this is merely political pandering. They are senators and they can propose such legislation, if they truly believe it will help. As far as I know, neither of them have written such legislation let alone proposed it NOW.

Without doing something as senators to try to get this to happen today and not next year, if they were to win the office, is simply political promises they don't have to keep and have no intention of keeping.

But again, who cares if it is? I just don't see how we lose on this issue, with the electorate as angry as they are right now. Why not force the republicans to actually filibuster a windfall profits tax on big oil? Why give them a pass and let them get away with QUIETLY supporting energy companies rather than shine a light on them and make them take that stand in a very, very public manner?

Again, can you see the ads we could run with McCain or his buddies like McConnell filibustering tax relief for the American public? Or if it actually passed, and BUsh vetoed it? Our party would be golden.


:hi:

enough imo:

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/saporta/stories/2008/05/04/saporta_0505.html

snip//

The gas tax is used to pay back bonds for building transportation infrastructure. That means those dollars are already spoken for. Unfortunately, in Georgia, the gas tax is restricted to just roads and bridges. There's no statewide source of dedicated funds to pay for transit and other alternative modes. A couple of weeks ago, U.S. Rep. James Oberstar (D-Minn.), who chairs the House Committee on Transportation, criticized a proposal to suspend the 18.3-cent federal gas tax.

The move would save most drivers less than $30 during the summer season but would cost states billions in lost money for highway construction and safety as well as public transit.

The federal Highway Trust Fund already struggles to meet national transportation needs. Suspending the federal fuel tax would bring the fund to the edge of insolvency, Oberstar said. It also would increase congestion and its related costs.

an argument against removing "gas tax":


that and the fact that the "holiday" amounts to, oh, $30 a year.

I know that I'm one of the people struggling to make ends meet, and I know that this garbage means nothing to me. It's almost an INSULT to call it "relief."

in europe, gas is MUCH more expensive than it is here- somewhere between $8 and $13 a gallon- much of that is taxed, and spent on healthcare, infrastructure, etc. of course, their cars get MUCH better gas mileage too.

maybe a better option would simply be to tell oil co's to feck off with their massive profits; start w/ the economy, eff free trade and opt for fairness, improve gas mileage yesterday instead of 2020, search for alternative fuels, etc etc etc.

gas tax elimination/"holiday" is not the answer. the criticism has nothing to do with "who's saying it." it's pandering, plain and simple.

The argument that our infrastructure is in poor shape is a bad one in support of the gas tax. Additionally, as I pointed out, the windfall profits tax would/could bring in more money than the gas tax does, which could be used for maintenance and rebuilding projects.

The price of gas in Europe and free trade arguments are non-sequitors for now. The entire continent of Europe is very small, and they have fabulous public transit systems. Yes, that should be our goal, but in the meantime what else can we do?

Also, that is one of the few areas with which I disagree with our European brethren. Their gas taxes and value added taxes are too high, especially considering that they are such regressive taxes. I would not support the continuation or implementation of those taxes here anymore than I would support a national sales tax.


Sure the best way to deal with the economic problems we are facing is to end the war and stop spending $15 billion a month to kill people. Yes, that would go a long way towards stopping the bleeding. But I still don't understand the animosity towards such an idea (which has been supported by Dems in the past, by the way). Again, the only consistent thing I see in any of this is that Obama supporters keep arguing that Clinton is pandering, while ignoring the fact that he supports the windfall profits tax as well. As one who only supports the Dem nominee in Nov, I just really don't understand the animosity. :shrug:

because there is NO benefit to the average american citizen, and yet she is playing it up as though it were some major help to us. you still haven't argued why it's somehow beneficial- it's not.

not beneficial? Even if only temporarily, though I would love to see such repeal be made permanent.

Though, I must say that I would not support such a holiday standing alone. I agree that it must be done in conjunction with a windfall profits tax or price caps, so I don't want to give the impression that I think it alone would be a good idea. I do doubt that we could get any of this through the current Congress and certainly nothing like this past Bush. But I think we (ie, our party and our nominee) win either way.



Ok, I really do have to get to work now! :)

but i just don't see it as helpful- it's not going to put any money in my pocket. period.

then there's the supply and demand argument i left out...

edit: by the way, i was rushing when i responded to the last one RE: my non sequiturs. first to europe, i was pointing to the fact that we only think we have it bad here w/ gas prices, and that gas taxes could be allocated more usefully. i have no problem with taxes themselves, just with where the money goes. republicans complain that we can't afford universal healthcare, well, we can afford trillions for war- well there we go. end the war, send the money to our medicine, that alone puts more money in my pocket, because then i'm not paying for death, and i'm not spending $595 per month on health insurance with a large deductible and a co-pay with every visit.

secondly, on free trade, i was arguing that if our economy sucked less, perhaps we wouldn't be hurting for "relief."

If they could do this for the independent long haul truckers that would be one thing but to do it for the average joe is stupid. As far as big corporations saving any money on their shipping costs no one in their right mind believes they will pass the savings on to consumers. They'll do what they always do, give themselves huge bonuses and reward their shareholders.

The average person won't even reap a $50 savings. It's a ridiculous political gimmick!

...thus lining the oil companies' pockets. Instead of helping the consumer, we'd help the oil companies. This is the first I've heard of a windfall profits tax, though. But it just seems to me the OC's would crank the prices in response in order to protect their enormous piece of the pie. In the absence of real regulation in the form of price caps, I don't see how the consumer can pull off a win.

BTW, I know less than nothing about economics. I have a liberal arts degree. :)

And from what I understand at least, Clinton wants the gas tax holiday and windfall tax in conjunction with one another.

The great thing about a windfall profits tax is that it usually also eliminates any incentive for the business to raise prices, almost acting as a price cap. After all, why should they raise prices, when any increase in the price only goes to the government as a windfall tax and not in their bottom line? It's a win win for us.

already has proposed that same tax to pay for one of her other programs. She's spending it twice.
Plus: if gas prices only temporarily go down, demand goes up, thus raising prices.
OR: Even if the 5% cut stays in place and the pump price doesn't compensate due to market conditions, gas usage goes up anyway, thus making this the giant club-foot of all holidays for its carbon footprint.

A gas tax holiday would encourage more driving and increase demand. Since supplies would be unchanged, big oil would hike up the price and any savings from the "gas tax holiday" would be wiped out. On a side note, Clinton already proposed using money from a windfall tax to pursue alternative energy sources. You can only use the same tax once.

Supply and Demand. Remove the tax and the price will rise up to the same level by it self anyway. Consumers will pay the same and the government be out of the tax money that are now going into the oil companies' pockets.

In short: The consumers won't save much if anything.

Windfall taxing is then good and fine. But it completely separate from this issue, in reality.

It's a brilliant idea, and Hillary has more than enough substantial understanding of and plans for America that she doesn't need to bolster that by cowtowing to strict economics on this. She's got plenty of cred to take a bit of a flyer and promote this short-term populist plan.

And to hear the Obama camp try to make something of this is laughable. Their substance consists of 'hope' and 'change' LOLLL! At least you can put a gas tax savings in your pocket. Well, if you don't have too much 'hope' in there already.

Plus it lets people know that she has concrete perceptions of who has made out in these oil-inflation times and that she's not afraid to go after them. Plus she's paying for it, which Publicans never do. It sends another message right there.

And here's something else: can you imagine how much mileage she'll get if the oil companies try to raise prices even more after such a holiday were instituted? Imagine: people start getting, whatever-40 cents off, then the oil companies try to raise the price of oil by 40 cents. Now who looks like they're trying to take the tax holiday for their own pockets. Ugh-oh, real bad move. It's like an unofficial price cap. They can go over it if they want, and incur the resentment and wrath of the people and who knows what will flow from that.

She's fine with this gas tax holiday.

think it's simply pander by Hill and JMac. And they're right. There's absolutely no way to get this passed in time to help with summer gas prices- and that's what their proposals purportedly target. And sorry, there's no guarantee that this would save anyone a cent. How do you stop big oil from simply upping prices to up profits? How about supply and demand. And the oil companies have made out just fine with the resentment and anger of the American people. Until fundamental changes are made, they'll continue to do so.

And a windfall profits tax would NOT discourage oil companies from raising pump prices any more than a higher income tax would discourage you or me from looking for a better-paying job. A windfall profits tax isn't a 100% tax, so they still make money if they raise prices. The "wrath of the people"? It doesn't seem to be changing the way they do business so far...

determined by commodity traders/investors/speculators. It seems like a safe place to rest money and people are selling off lesser performing assets to do just that. Because investors are very nervous and prone to sell at the first sign of a serious reversal, the way to drive the price down would be to have "gas purchase holidays". That is, nobody in America buys gas on Friday for example.

BOTH have also already stated that the windfall profit tax money would go towards developing Green Energy. In effect, Hillary is talking out of both sides of her mouth as she is implying the windfall profits tax would be used for two purposes. So, based on that here's the real facts on the McCain/Clinton gas tax holiday

(1) The money will pull billions out of the Federal Highway Fund which is used to repair roads and bridges across the US. Those repairs require US workers to make those repairs. Without funds to do the repairs, there will be no way to pay the workers. With no way to pay the workers, there will be no NEED for workers. It is estimated that at least 7500 jobs would be lost in my home state of NC alone. Magnify that across all 50 states and you would see a real increase in the national unemployment rate until such time as their unemployment runs out and they are no longer counted in the total.

(2) The Gas Tax Holiday was tried in Illinois, and as a Illinois legislator Obama supported that effort. After a 6 month review of the effectiveness, the report showed that the oil companies and retail outlet owners simply moved the price to make up the difference in the gas tax savings and simply reaped windfall profits with the consumers realizing effectively zero net savings.

(3) The average consumer would realize, at best, about $30-$60 in savings over the three month period. I have seen Hillary supporters say "what about the truckers". Well lets get real, the price of diesel is already over $4 per gallon. Eliminating the gas tax for three months would still leave them paying around $4 per gallon. The truckers recently held rally's to protest fuel prices and they are looking for legislation to CAP their fuel costs at $2 per gallon at the pump. Obama has not said he would not look into helping the truckers in some manner, but that is a separate legislation. Clearly cutting the gas tax will not get the truckers anywhere near their target price.

(4) If Hillary was serious about the need for a gas tax holiday and not simply pandering to voters, wouldn't she have already proposed legislation to get it done? Summer is not far away and it takes time to get things through congress...just sayin'

What America needs are major investments into green energy, and realistic fuel economy standards for the auto industry in an effort to reduce dependence on oil as an energy source. That's a sound plan, and that's what Obama intends to do.

on edit: corrected typo in subject line

Increase the supply by drilling more wells or pumping more out of the wells already poducing oil or decrease the demand via a concentrated energy policy that focuses on fuel economy and alternative energy/energy independence.