Threats, intimidation, bluster directed at a party chairman for following the rules.

There has been so much ugliness directed at Dean from FL and MI and from the Clinton campaign...that it was almost a relief to hear Barack Obama have a few soothing words for him last night.



Isn't something wrong when it is worthy of a newspaper article because someone said something decent about the party chairman. It is kind of a sad thing, and it shows how terribly divided we have become.

I don't ever remember a time when the campaign of a candidate for president openly, loudly, and constantly mocked or attacked the chairman of the party because that chairman was following party rules. Carl Levin of Michigan got ticked off at Chairman Terry McAuliffe when he said he would not seat MI at the convention in Boston if they broke the rules.

But no one us even knew about it...they settled it with a deal to form a commission. The commission appointed by Terry to make Levin back off is the one that made the rules that Chairman Howard Dean is enforcing. It is the same committee that sanctioned FL and MI in the first place.

I see people talking about Hillary Clinton's "nuclear option" to get the Florida delegates. Why the surprise? She has been saying this for months. It is no secret at all.

Hillary herself talked about it in a recent interview with the St Pete Times. The interview was a mixture of words saying the DNC should decide, but then implying they should decide her way or there would be consequences.



Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, shown in a congressional hearing last week, told the Times on Sunday, “It’s always been my hope and my expectation that we would be smart enough to figure out we don’t want to alienate 1.75-million voters in Florida."



There have been protests throughout Florida organized by her campaign, although they are using so called non-partisan groups to organize the rallies. There was a protest in front of the DNC in which they taunted Dean in yells to "act like a man, Howard." Childish stuff.

Bill Nelson threatened blood on the convention floor. Wasserman Schultz has continued the conversation. Both have implied that Florida will vote Republican if Hillary does not get her way. And I am not even going to talk about Corinne Brown's constant calls to Dean to resign.

There is a lawsuit going on now that is so idiotic that the two filing it don't even believe in it. But they are so well funded and so into this lawsuit stuff that they are even invoking Rule 11, using it to get to the Supreme Court by August.

So why the surprise. Her campaign has said so, Florida has said so.
Someone in a post yesterday here accused me of being a dog with a bone about the Florida issue. That person is right.

I can not believe more are not absolutely livid at the attempts to split our party. It has even become popular to make fun of the rules, like it is somehow old-fashioned to think a party needs such silly things as rules.

It has been made popular now to ridicule a party leader who has the longterm interests of the party in mind. It has become common for McAuliffe who preceded Dean to miss no effort to follow the campaign's rhetoric about "disenfranchisement."

I must give credit to the Clinton campaign. They are brilliant strategists, unswerving, unwavering. Their tactics work, the tactics of ridicule and the use of wedge issues.

Sadly their tactics have worked so well in Florida, where the bloggers and media are totally complicit with the state party....that they actually think they are victims.

...to have her lollipop - at any expense - and our party is expected to break it's own rules so she can have it?

I hope to God Howard Dean doesn't back down to this crap.

And I'm sure that someone was not encumbered by facts either. Kind of like the hit piece Bush Inc. wrote on Kerry.

I think there's more of an ulterior motive to try and sabotage Dean, and move one of their guys in at the DNC, than to set herself up for 2012.

...the DLC-toadying DNC for major issues. One where he has not been successful is getting the voting fraud issue sorted out so that we can have accountable elections.

They would schmooze him off to one side and take over. Dean's not going, and that has the DLC pissed off.

for Hillary's tantrums is proof that he is indeed, not weak. He's standing up to the bullying and that is exactly why he's getting so much grief. He's as TOUGH as she is. Nice to see a wonderful, truth speaking Democrat like Dr.Dean with a backbone!

and having closely observed him for close to twenty years, I think I'm in a position to judge. Perhaps you don't know enough to make your judgment. And perhaps it's because Dean isn't bowing to Hill's wishes.

We need more folks just like him.

We need more folks just like him: I second that too.

Couldn't have said it better myself, except that McAuliffe and the DLC are cyanide.

do you remember that battle?

Maybe that's because the "rules" violate the Democratic Party Charter:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

It ain't fair. That's why they need the "rules." The rules apparently were handed down by God who was surrounded by a golden haze of light. They canNOT be changed --not for the purpose of fairness; not for the purpose of punishing those who actually had something to do with the actual infraction; and certainly not for the purpose of carrying two of the larger States in the general election. Nope. The rules iz the rules. Amen.

Gotta love it, don't ya?

No one likes to be reminded of their misdeeds.

That's why they were disqualified for violating the rules. They tried to usurp the other 48 states.

The voters did their party duty and voted. Punish the party hacks but count the votes and seat their delegates, according to the Party Charter.

The "rules" that were broken violate the Party dogma - ALL members must be allowed full participation in the nominating process.

... before they bumped their primaries to the front of the line and Senator Clinton should have thought of that before she flip flopped on whether or not she'd support the National Party disqualifying those primary results.

I'm willing to bet if the shoe were on the other foot and she was aheadf and another candidate wanted those votes counted now, she'd be jumping up and down to make sure the Party did not reverse its stance.


Sorry, her motives are totally blatant.

Then what about the people who didn't go to the polls in FL or MI since it had been agreed that it was cosmetic and wouldn't really count? Forget those voters?

Or the ones who COULDN'T vote FOR Obama because his name wasn't ON the Ballot?

ALL the voters you say? Bullshit cherrypicking assholes need to shut the fuck up with these FAKE arguments for their FAKE and Corrupt candidate..

Florida and Michigan declined. They had the opportunity to participate, they refused. States don't get to just have contests whenever they want and then demand that, oh, The first Tuesday's vote when Hillary won is the one that *actually* counted, or the primary they held two years ago is the "real" one.

...that democratic dogma is inviolable.

More so in a presidential primary election process. This is where the people are directly and equally involved with the selection of constitutional candidates. What a great process! What used to be decided by fat old men wearing derby hats, smoking smelly cigars in dimly lit back rooms, is now publicly decided by the citizens themselves - ALL the citizens !

Get that? It's beyond "my candidate is better than yours". It's about a pure and totally inclusive election process !

Think about it. Everybody individually participates. No exceptions.

Personally, I don't think our parties are exactly 21st century, when we have the technical means to do IRV in 50 states, but that would be the death knell of so much of Washington that it's only a dream right now. I'd settle for a single national primary day, one for each (>5%) party, instead.

Both campaigns agreed to the rules in advance. Obama's campaign adhered to the agreement. Clinton's campaign broke the agreement. And now Clinton should be rewarded for breaking the agreement and Obama should be punished for adhering to it? What kind of twisted logic is that?? Give me a break!

They also broke the rules. The rules were also broken in the 100% reduction of the delegation when only a 50% reduction is mandated by rules. Either enforce them uniformly or don't enforce them at all. Florida and Michigan should receive the same benefits other states that broke the rules did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5730339&mesg_id=5730339

that was approved by ALL of the states prior to the start of the primaries. They were given waivers to move only because of FL and MI moved ahead.

Also, the 50% reduction was set in the rules to keep states from moving, with the possibility of greater sanctions. When it became clear that FL and MI would move despite the 50% reduction, the DNC went to 100% in hopes that they would take the sanctions seriously. They didn't.

FL & MI knew full well the consequences of their power-grabs. The DNC gave them notice, and they chose to gamble and lost.

I used to have high hopes for Wasserman-Schultz, now I find her almost as deplorable as Senator Clinton.

An informative, articulate piece.

:kick: & REC'D!!!

at how many posts now I can not see...just a word is there.."ignored."

I must have angered some. But thanks for the kind words. :)

afford to ignore those we disagree with lest it lead to our own ignorance.

I just can't process that. "Ignored"?? What did you do steal a boy or girl friend?

As for FL the state needs new leadership. Plain and simple. Both in the party and throughout the state.

Yes, I do use the option. I usually do when they have no goal but to irritate, no points to make, and a whole lot of nothingness.

The rest of your post does not compute. But I do agree that both states need new leadership.

a little high school and counter productive to the exchange of ideas.

I always read your posts. I finds them very thought provocative. I admit this is a new communication form for me and I would not want people to be able to access me directly.

But why "ignore" a comment? Or anyone else's post?

I know there are many people who let there emotions get out of control on there boards and show little light and much heat.

In many ways it does remind me of when I taught in high school. And not in the honors class either. At least not all the time. But sometimes you learn a great deal from the one that "act out." If you can engage them.

Now the analogy is , of course not perfect and ignore whomever you please at will. What's to stop you?

But do you really need self censorship of "irritating" posts or comments with "no points?"

Again I say I know the analogy's imperfection but I am reminded of too many times kids and adults are ignored because they are irritating.

Thanks for your work and time.

You are saying we benefit from all comments. I disagree. There is a lot of astroturfing here, people who are here for just one purpose, and they do not have the goal of promoting truth.

"I'll just ignore those I disagree with" or even those who as you say are not promoting the truth is behaving like a school kiddie.
And a spoiled one at that.

Are you just tired of listening?

The point is not in the relative merits of any singular comment or even in the tone of a poster who you continue to disagree with and even find less than enlightening. I guess the point is just in not becoming one of the closed minded masses. Now if you're being insulted or verbally assaulted in some way by someone, which I'm sorry you seem to feel you have been here, as I said before ignore at will. Who or what would stop you?

I guess we can agree to disagree about benefiting from comments. Sometimes it's good to know what's in the mind of the people who are trying to spread hate and as you say are not interested in promoting truth. Obama has said he would meet with people he disagrees with. I agree. And not necessarily to "meeting in the middle" but rather to know what's on the mind of the other side and to keep things from disintegrating any more than they already have.

I see dead (to me) people. Oh dears.

He talked about this being mostly those who haven't stated their preference for a candidate who are calling him and saying this would be devastating and they are against it. This would more than 'tic' them off if the Clinton's try this. Saber rattling getting louder from Clinton, pissing off the SD's she needs. I suspect she knows she won't get enough SD's and hence is going the rules committee route where she has about half or 15 of the 30 members of the committee.

:hi:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/05/983419.aspx

"From MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell and Adam Verdugo
Tom Daschle, an Obama supporter, said in an interview today on MSNBC that undecided superdelegates would be more than "ticked" if the Clinton campaign tries to force the so-called "nuclear option" and encourages the Rules and Bylaws committee, which meets May 31st, to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates.

The former South Dakota senator said he was amazed at the number of undecided superdelegates that have called him in the last 24 hours saying that it would be an "absolute disaster."

Asked if the superdelegates would be "ticked" if the nuclear option were implemented he replied, "If we overturn what has happened in all these elections all over the country and do something like that, ticked is mild compared to the feeling I am getting from reports all over the country today."

if she wins the GE.

:thumbsup:

I could still see him taking someone to the mat if they aggrivated him enough. :)

:woohoo: GO DOC! :patriot:

you don't support the democratic victory in 2006



yeah. that was his doing. not DLC members


so if you don't support people who want victory, go back to supporting those who supported appeasing george w. bush.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

hope Dean doesn't have to go OT on their behinds.

I hope he has someone to back him up. Like a ninja, maybe.

I'm an escapee from the lounge right now. I should go back to the loony bin to restore my sanity b/c I am ready to go OT myself. so far my head hasn't exploded...I can only hope...

in a day or two you'll see a thread involving temeah and a certain object.

so I would hate to miss the fun. I'm hoping all goes well and tomorrow or next week the primary will be over. I won't hold my breath, tho.

oh, here's another kiss from me. lol

its the flock that seems to have strayed.

How childish a certain campaign has become. Dean sucks as a chairman...he is dead to them.

Daschle is dead to them.

Bradley is dead to them.

Dean is most certainly dead to them.

Like children who do not get their way.....starting Dean sucks posts.

Damn it is so obvious.

His job is to bring us victory and to that end he has a great deal of influence over "the rules." I was pretty impressed with the results in '05 and '06. Now he has done two things that seem to run contrary to his mission. First, he developed a primary calander that favors our one sure-miss candidate. I figure HC is the second least electable candidate we had this year. So my support for her is largely an effort to avoid the first least electable candidate, the one who cannot even decisively beat Hillary Clinton.

Second, he has officially alienated MI and FL. Obviously, the citizens of those states had no voice on the decision to hold early primaries. Even if they did, the whole follow the rules thing should not supercedes the most basic democratic right there is. So, Dean has told two states, one of which we absolutely cannot win without and the other one that we probably cannot win without, to go to hell. How will that get us to 270 electors in November?

And things will go back to just how they used to be....the Clintons are the big doggies...and everyone else is subservient.

Oh, wait, maybe Terry again...we won so much under his chairmanship.

Or Carville...that's it. He is next.

Is anyone else dead to you?

camp. Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Donna Brazille et al. go on TV and talk about Michigan, but they don't dare come here and talk to us. I think the message is pretty clear.

You're being ignored because you're acting like a 2-year old.

A leader mediates disputes amongst his constituencies, and mends fences when unity is called for.

A child points his finger and says, But it's *his* fault, not mine!

The time for finger-pointing is long past. This primary race could have been done and resolved by now if Howard Dean had shown enough leadership to resolve this issue with fairness and finality long, long ago. I don't hate the man or the 50 state solution--I just want him to take decisive action to end the Michigan and Florida debacle. His failure to do so is an undeniable failure in leadership, and the results speak for themselves--a sure thing has become a toss up under his miss-management.

to hold the Michigan leadership accountable. I am so sick of the whining, intimidation and pandering to voters about how the two states have been disenfranchised by the DNC.

These people not only knew the rules and agreed to abide by them - many were instrumental in creating the rules and its penalties!

If Howard Dean did not warn Michigan (and Florida) that they were about to break the rules AND if he did not remind them of the penalties then he would have been a failed leader. He did do his job, but what did the Michigan leadership do? They threw a big fat Cheney at not only Dean and the DNC, but at every Michigan voter and at each and every state and their voters in this Union that did follow the DNC rules and bylaws!

Howard Dean is in an impossible position. He doesn't work in a vacuum where all decisions are his and his alone to make. More than anything he'd like to see everyone represented in Denver. Everyone. Those who malign him over this have their own agenda(s). Interesting how he and the DNC are blamed for holding a political faction accountable to the rules they daringly chose to ignore; yet all other states honorably followed. If you don't think he hasn't been trying to work with and come to a workable solution you best think again.

For the past eight years we have groaned and complained, often heartbreakingly sobbing over the rules, policies, laws and treaties that have been dismissed, broken or exploited by the Bush* administration. We, the Democrats, have said, are the better party. We are the ones who not only believe in the rule of law, but also put our lives and souls in assuring they are followed. Yet, what does it say about any of us if we turn a blind eye when one or some of our own decides the rules don't apply? When that happens we are traveling down the same Bush* path of power? That worries me. What will they violate next for their own expediency?

This is about the DLC trying to control the DNC. Personally, I'd like to see the Michigan (DLC) Democratic leaders pay back this financially strapped state for an election that they knew full well was in direct violation of rules and bylaws they helped create.

If the DLC wants to run things their way, then they ought to start their own political party and leave the DNC to those who prefer to honestly abide by the rules, and not triangulate. How can we trust anyone to represent us honorably if they cannot follow simple rules they helped create?

At any rate, I've no doubt they will come to some kind of understanding. Michigan and Florida will represent their states in Denver, perhaps not in full capacity, but they'll be there.

:applause:

I am interested in being able to have my vote counted, putting the primary behind us with a sense of finality, and moving on to November.

How does your post help us move toward any of those goals?

whether I like it or not, the Michigan leaders of the Democratic Party (primarily of the DLC variety) sealed our fate when they chose to bully the rest of the DNC with their decision to hold an election outside the rules they helped formed - knowing full well what the consequences would be.

My beef is with those leaders.

The January election was not a 'real' election by any stretch. The voter turnout was dismal. We will never know what the results would have been had for Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Obama, et al been on the ticket. We were even deprived of having them come into this state and campaign. To speak to us about our concerns and desires.

I understand your distress, I share it. But I do not understand why you can blame the DNC and Howard Dean when your, and my state played a chicken with our votes just so they could 'position' themselves as a force of power. Instead of playing victim, they ought to be punished by the Michigan voters, but won't be.

My letters to them have been ignored.

I don't know where you get DLC vs. DNC out of this, when the candidates on both side of this dispute are both deeply involved with the DLC? :shrug:

I'm not talking about candidates running for office. I'm talking about a faction of the Democratic Party who bullys, intimidates others for their gain of power and subsequent wealth by triangulation.

I'd like to see our party take us to where we concern ourselves with what is best for the American people as a whole. Not what is good for a very few or the conglomerates, banking and insurance firms.

The DLC has had it in for Howard Dean even before he took his DNC position. They'll fight him and anyone else that gets in their way. They'll fight dirty when they feel the need.

The point of the DLC is to promote right-wing economics in the Democratic Party. Barack Obama's economic policy is set by the head of right-wing DLC economic policy, and "it's not the point"???

you don't compromise with a child breaking the rules and throwing temper tantrums. You show firmness and refuse to bend to his/her childishness.

Leadership is as much about showing strength in the face of foolishness as it is showing humility and deference to intelligence.

speaking of arrogance....

Don't ever remember that in our party. Or maybe I was just not paying attention.

At least that's what (gasp!) Howard Dean says: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=167527&title=howard-dean&tag=generic_tag_howard_dean&itemId=107667

Just before the 1 minute mark.

and they are not going to be counted that way.

As in the delegates from Michigan go all to her, since she was the only one on the ballot? :rofl:

That's just :crazy: talk!

I hope Obama does not agree to anything like that. In fact, I hope it is over soon.

Instead I put together a post with sources. I told the truth all the way through it.

Yet a post saying "Dean sucks" is fast moving up the greatest page.

Ain't it amazing?

Don't worry about Dean - folks in Hillaryland have slammed Dean so much that folks here don't know the truth from thier truth :crazy:

Dean will be fine as soon as this process is over.

Thanks again mad, keep it up! :hi:

No matter what happened in the 90s, I defended him. It was hard to do at times where I live.

But seeing this side, the way they campaign...there is a sadness to it.

and I don't, and will never regret defending him. What Ken Starr and the GOP did to Clinton was abominable. It should not have been allowed to happen.

Yet, like you, I've seen a side to the Clintons that put a hole in my heart. After all we've been through with Bush* and Cheney and the DC crowd these last 8 years, Clinton's behavior is like salt on the wound.

and the SD's that are still on the fence or are wary of making their choice public had better choose sides right away.

:thumbsup:

That can always change.

There is a proverb that says don't ever forget that the ass you are kicking today might be one you need to kiss tomorrow. Seems prudent that if you are in a situation where you NEED support from a group of people it probably is a bad idea to publicly offend the leader of that same group.

I agree the Clintons have done nothing short of flip the finger at Dean and the DNC, yet they are STILL trying to run for the Dem nomination. I just do NOT see how that is going to end up as a winning strategy for them yet they continue to do it. I can only wonder WHY? They are not stupid people, they have GOT to realize their position--so what drives this behavior?

I think Dashle's comments today were the first time i have actually seen any real discussion of what lies ahead for the Clintons. I have to wonder if THEY realize what that was.

:shrug:


Laura

I did a search earlier but nothing had shown up yet online.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/05/983419.aspx


A snip from the article:

Daschle Calls Nuclear Option a Disaster


From MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell and Adam Verdugo


"Tom Daschle, an Obama supporter, said in an interview today on MSNBC that undecided superdelegates would be more than "ticked" if the Clinton campaign tries to force the so-called "nuclear option" and encourages the Rules and Bylaws committee, which meets May 31st, to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates.

The former South Dakota senator said he was amazed at the number of undecided superdelegates that have called him in the last 24 hours saying that it would be an "absolute disaster."


Hang in there!


Laura

Sounds like superdelegates are not liking these tactics. :hi:

And we are not doing our job.

If he had the one million small donors giving 20 a month....he would have all the power he needed to bring the change.

But he doesn't, because small donors abandoned him because of snits from the 2004 primaries, because of old loyalties.

I guess he did not count on that.

And the bigger donors are going to Hillary via Catalist, Ickes' database.

:hi:

I thought moving the primary date in Florida was a bad idea, but I couldn't do anything about it except vote in the primary that was offered.

(BTW, I'm sure that if Obama or Edwards or any other candidate were in Hillary's position, they would do the same thing to get as many delegates as possible. I'm glad to see some fight from the candidates after Gore and Kerry were so unwilling and unprepared to keep going.)

I simply want a Democrat in the White House and any of the original candidates would be fine with me. Punishing Florida will likely result in losing more independents and swing voters. Punishing Florida will not likely change anything because the GOP runs the courts and state legislature. They won't put the date at a time that the DNC prefers just to be nice. In fact, all this confusion has the GOP in Florida laughing all the way to November.

The DNC needs to go after the individuals who created the problem; not the candidates (who are trying to win), not the voters (who didn't have a choice), not the delegates (who represent the Democratic Party from Florida and Michigan). I think the current primary has been good for visibility, fund-raising, and getting the voters to register.

I'd rather see them suspend the Florida and Michigan leadership and let the delegates be seated (or rerun the primary if possible), than to see Florida elect another GOP idiot in a close election!




:dem: :hi:

Can you even imagine what the world would be like if Gore had been a two term President! He WON here, and in hindsight many thousands would not have lost their lives, many billions would not be spent in Iraq, and we'd have an energy policy that makes sense! Gore would never have gotten us into this mess even if Gore was not your favorite 8 years ago.

I really liked Edwards, but I'm not willing to lose the entire election and put another war-monger into office because my favorite isn't the top pick. Drawing a random candidate from the original top 5 Democrats would be infinitely better than McCain!

If it comes down to a few hundred votes again, I don't want the fact that Florida didn't send delegates to be like the Nader folks or the butterfly ballot and make the little difference that changes the election.

I want to WIN! Damn I'm tired of Republican idiots! I think the primary date is pretty irrelevant compared to getting a Democrat in the White House. 1.7 million Floridians don't care about the date! We just want to have a primary and get on with it.


:rant:

(Sorry)

but your state leaders are blocking that option. Think about it this way, seating the delegates of the undisputed (except by Hillary) contests in Florida and Michigan disenfranchises everyone else.

So which would you rather have?" Florida and Michigan throwing a temper tantrum or forcing an unacceptable nominee on every other state that followed the rules.

and you never know what courts will do down here (except that it will almost always be something that won't help Democrats!)
I wouldn't be surprised to see a last minute court order that is too late for a primary redo.

If the DNC has any way to do it, they need to get rid of the local leaders in FL and MI that are responsible. Madfloridian has kept us informed about the inner workings for several months. I'm no fan of Nelson or Thurman or any of those that are keeping this thing tied up.

The only nominee that I think is unacceptable is a Republican one...I can live with ANY of the others and be glad for it! You really, really don't want an aging McCain in the White House with Chain Gang Charlie or Jeb as a VP. Whoever is VP for McCain will be the next president after the war in Iran and they will make even Cheney look good.

Hillary may not be the DU favorite, but I think it's missing the forest for the trees if you know that the last two elections came down to a few big states and so you toss them to the wind over a primary date. I don't want to lose sight of the goal.

Florida had a hugh turnout for the first primary, and Floridians would be glad to vote again, but the state is on the edge and could go to the GOP for a song. This will be an easy call in hindsight if McCain wins because of close votes in 2 big states!

All of the top five Democratic candidates will have a leading role in a Democratic White House - who cares if Hillary or Obama or Edwards or Richardson or Kucinich is Attorney General, Secretary of State, President, Vice-President or dog-catcher!? What we need to do now is get the rid of the GOP! Look at the damage that's been done already by Cheney, Gonzales, Rice, etc...!! Pelosi and Reed are impotent. Let's get the first string into the game!

at least not different enough to make a difference. She, and Democrats like her, are like the coach that runs a nine yard play when you need ten yards to get a first down. Or has the QB kneel at half-time when there's a chance to get off one more play. What's worse is that when the play fails Hillary's supporters start stamping their feet and saying, "well we only wanted nine yards," or "she thought the reciever could get the extra yard," or "at least we have good field position"

Are Hillary supporters THAT big of cry-babies that they would hold-their breath and stamp their feet and throw a temper tantrum and refuse to vote for Obama all because they didn't get the candidate they wanted? Which is, after all, what this whole issue has been about since the beginning - the Clinton supporting East coast establishment attempting to change the primary order and game the election for Hillary.

strategy and get out the vote, but I will rescind it in a heartbeat if Hillary somehow unfairly wrests the nomination from Barack Obama. This is what Rep. James Clyburn, House whip, repeated again today on MSNBC regarding how young people would react to such an outcome.

Once in Supreme Court in 1981.

Once against Bill Nelson last year.

Twice against Dimaio, who is now suing on the grounds that the DNC is prejudiced against white people in Florida.

Kind of pathetic.

;)

:hi:

I recognize that he will suffer the consequences of the issue with Michigan and Florida no matter what happens...

EXCEPT...if Obama and Hillary join forces and WIN! Winning seems to create a short memory.


:dem: :hi:

important.

Long live our Chairman!