Serious question: If Hillary take nomination, will it be better to sit out the election?

If Hillary takes the Presidential nomination, will it be better to sit out the election?

I am so damned sick of people portraying Sen. Clinton as the anti-christ, or worse. we cannot take four more years of bush, in the person of mclame.

she's the enemy ..

It's ridiculous.

I will write in Obama or choose Nader. Hillary Clinton does not get my vote.

I've had enough lies and flip flopping from the Clintons. They will NOT get my vote.

lies, flip flopping, accusations and other calamities just as there is in our personal every day lives. But just don't give up on your vote and for pete's sake, steer clear of the GOP.
I must confess, after years of voting for the best party, I voted for Richard Nixon because I was disgruntled with the Democratic nominee. Believe me I have regretted that black spot on my voting record and th realiztion I committed a diservice to my country by doing so.

Waving goodbye to Roe v Wade, because that is what will happen under a McCain presidency.

The court is already 5-4 to the hard right.
They could overturn Roe vs. Wade now.
But they won't.
It's the #1 Republican money raising/gotv tool and 70% of Americans don't want it overturned.
For political and money reasons, they will continue to restrict abortion rights (as they are doing right now) without overturning.

Alito, Scalia, Roberts, Kennedy and Thomas are all right-wing extremists.
That's 5 votes and yet....nothing.
It's amazing that the right-wing voters keep falling for this scam.

has voted to keep Roe v Wade.

Hillary Clinton just because she's running as a Democrat?

Hillary is the equivalent of Bush Jr. There is no reason to believe she would be better than McCain. So why would you vote for her?

Wouldn't it be better to write in the candidate of your choice than to settle for Bush Jr with a (D) in front of its name?

that Hillary would lead like Bush is on drugs or insane. Do you really think she would have nominated either Roberts or Alito to the court? Seriously? Sometimes this site goes completely over the edge of reality.

My comment stands.

if you really think that the future appointments to the SCOTUS dont matter, then sit out this fall.

...I know this is difficult for people who just can't bring themselves to think that a "Democrat" would do the kind of Republican things Hillary has done.

But think about it. In the years she's been in the Senate, what have her AcTIONS been? Has she voted more often for Democratic principles or to help the Republicans with their agenda? I'm talking about the big issues: inappropriate Bush appointments, bankruptcy bill, Iraq war, Patriot Acts, etc.

How many times did we beg for one of the Dem celebrities like Hillary to take a public stand against a Bush heinous policy or appointment, only to hear NOTHING from Hillary?

How many "Contact the Dems in Congress" drives did you participate in? How did Hillary respond to those efforts? In my experience, no matter how extensive the drive was, she voted with the Republicans.

And in this election process, have her ACTIONS been more like a Democrat in a Democratic primary, or a Republican?

How about her honesty and truthfulness? Has she told the truth on important, or even, unimportant issues?

Has she fulfilled her campaign promisses made when running for the Senate?

THis is my opinion: Hillary's ACTIONS have been more like a Republican than a Democrat. She as not fulfilled her campaign promises, and she has not told the truth on big and little issues.

Therefore, there is no reason to expect that she would do anything if elected president. I believe she would continue her Republican-collaborating ways. She certainly will continue to send American jobs to India: She's alreay promised to do so.

I think many people are making the same mistake they made with Bush Jr: not believing that someone in such a position of trust and honor would act dishonorably and dishonestly. They couldn't believe a sitting president would sit silently for months and allow a terrorist attack to occur on the Twin Towers. They couldn't believe a sitting president would allow people to drown in New Orleans. They couldn't believe a sitting president would allow a CIA field agent to be outed. The list goes on and on...

Well, he did. And Hillary is acting dishonorably and dishonestly, and it's time that people opened their freaking eyes, give up their childish fantasies about what presidents and Senators are capable of doing, and start paying attention so we can stay on top of the shit they are doing to our country.

womans right to choose, McCain doesnt. Simple as that.

why, yes, those are hallmarks of the truly mature.

Any mirrors in your glass house?

the election, just as they arrived to feast on the political carcass during this campaign season.

might support such an action so as to insure a McCain victory and 4 more years of Bush policies in Iraq.

if the rules committee votes to seat them, that's stealing? You guys are pathetic.

that is stealing...and anti-thetical to the very values of the "democratic" Party. Hillary will deserve whatever scorn and ill-fate come her way.

The rules the Democratic Party agreed on specifically allow for party insiders to be able to decide who the candidate should be. That is not stealing, it is called determining the nominee.

I don't agree with the the rules, but they were written to allow the will of the voters to be overturned.

Were you cool with the decision in Bush v. Gore? Was that not a "stolen" election...a travesty of justice?

"they were written to allow the will of the voters to be overturned."

That's true, but more specifically, they were written to ensure that no Democrat from the Left side of the political spectrum
ever again be allowed to have a chance at the nomination.

I don't see anybody here whining about Kerry and Kennedy going against the voters in their state and voting for Obama. The hypocrisy here is astounding. Anybody who sits out the election is not a real democrat.

Anyone who does not support the candidate with the most delegates earned through *democratic* processes is not a real "democrat" (small "d" and upper-case "d").

You don't like them, work to change them. You want to punish Michigan and Florida for not following the rules - fine. But then don't whine when superdelegates to what they do.

unethical at best, conniving and manipulative at worst. She wants to win this and doesn't care how. She has absolutely no sense of shame.

that Obama spent more time in Florida than Hillary did in the three weeks before the Florida primary? he was airing 'regional'advertising, visible in Florida, in the week before the Primary. oh yes, he wanted it both ways. He wanted to do well while still genuflecting to Iowa. When given an 'order' that Iowans' votes were more important than Michiganders or Floridians, he threw the other two states out the window to appeal to the caucuses in Iowa. He even took his name off the ballot in Michigan (and tried to in Florida) because the 'party elders' we keep hearing about told him to. Hillary told them to fuck off. And yet, Hillary is the subject of the insiders?

Then they need to schedule emergency elections in both states before the convention -- so everyone can have a chance to vote.

Hillary babbles on about not counting people's votes, but a lot of people in those two states didn't vote, because they had been told the elections were meaningless. That was a rational choice.

By now counting those votes, it disenfranchises those voters who stayed home because they were told their vote wouldn't count anyway.

Doing that would be on a paw with making robo calls telling people the wrong precinct location or that the date of the election had been changed. It's voter fraud pure and simple.

it's just that Barack Obama told them not to vote for him. now he wants a do-over? after conspiring to disenfranchise two states so that he could genuflect to the people of Iowa? No one in Florida was denied the chance to vote for anyone, Obama was on the ballot, he just told them not to vote for him, that Iowa was more important. sad.

in Michigan, the only reason people could not vote for him was because he took his name off the ballot because the party insiders he opposes so much told him to do it. they told Hillary to do it to, to her credit, I believe, she ignored them.

what if, in the 2012 primary, the Dems decide not to count the votes of Blacks, because they offend Redneck Whites? will Obama jsut say "hey, them's the rules, sorry guys." or tell the party leadership that wants to minimuze the process to fuck off? which is leadership in your book?

Many people who didn't vote didn't vote because they were told it was a sham election. They made their choice based on that information.

You can't retroactively change the rule and say -- Oh, now the votes will count.

If you're going to count the votes, then you need to make sure everyone has a chance to vote with the right information.

oh right, the Obama campaign and the party insiders.

which said it was stripping the states of their delegates.

and the 'outsider' versus the 'insider'? how very odd.

when the Party told people not to vote, which candidate told them TO vote, and which went along with the disenfranchisement meekly because it was politically expedient?

right.

You're losing it

the Party said to the Democrats of Florida and Michigan "Iowa is more important than you, your votes don't count." noted man of the people Barak Obama said "your votes aren't important enough to count, I don't even want to be on your ballot" Evil insider Hillary Clinton said "That's ridiculous, go vote and I will fight for your right to be counted"

which is the democratic move, and which was the party loyalist move? one current dandidate went meekly along with the disenfranchisement of two states. one didn't. why do you support the continued effort to have the votes not count? people voted, people voted in good faith. just because Obama told them not to vote and some people chose to listen to him, doesn't mean that other people's votes shouldn't count, right?

If she gets the nom by less-than-legitimate means, I'll vote 3rd party. They'd probably be more progressive than she is.

...Progressives may as well sit down, because we will have finally been given the heave-ho by the Democratic Party.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for precisely what we have right now, which doesn't work. She's no different than McCain.

May as well not vote if you have no one to vote for. Perhaps some day, when enough people decide to stay the hell home, someone will finally get the point that our system is broken.

Personally, I hope Obama runs as an independent if Hillary steals the nomination. Deny her any shot at the Presidency at all costs. She doesn't deserve it.

no different. shit, enjoying your Bush Presidency that much?

I think a lot of people are tired of going to the polls -- holding their noses -- and voting for the "least worst candidate."

If we had candidates who generated excitement and hope and a promise of change, you might find people flocking to the polls in record numbers.

When a candidate's best argument is "Vote for me because I'm not as bad as that other monster" Or "Vote for me because somewhere down the road he will make decisions that are worse than my bad decisions," people are much less inclined to get out and vote.

and the other sites that serve as an assembly of free-thinking Democrats with internet access is but a drop of water in the bucket of what is America.

I think that only/mostly on the internet will you find supporters of one candidate who are willing to sit out the election if the other candidate is the nominee.

At least, that's what I hope, anyway!

Your watching the results as they come in!

I will vote for Barack Obama in November. No matter what Hillary does or does not get away with.

(Though I do not believe she will get away with it)

If Hillary "takes" the nomination, without the pledged delegate lead...I would not object to loyal Democrats writing in the name of the rightful nominee, however.

I don't :evilfrown:

In a different thread on MIldrend Loving I saw this quote from thecatburgler.

Who would you rather see nominate the next 2 Supreme Court Justices?

There will be plenty of other people to do that for us.

for down ticket Dems. Please do NOT "sit-out."

The past two years have demonstrated that it as important, perhaps more important than who is Prez, to get much larger majorities in both Houses of Congress. State legislatures too.

should there be an organized campaign for a write-in, i would write in obama. otherwise, kucinich or edwards. i will not vote for hillary. period.

It probably won't affect the outcome.

So far, stupidity is ahead.

She is further to the right than McCain on war and belligerance in the Middle East, that is a major problem for me, and also, no one who race-baits gets my vote, period.

If she gets the nom, I'll be discussing with Skinner and the Mods in private email how far I can go with expressing my displeasure and disgust without getting Tombstoned, but the bottom line is that if Hillary is the Democratic nominee, I have decided that I will write in my own name for President. In other words, I'll still be voting for a Democrat.

Senators Clinton and Obama have the exact same voting record on the war. the only exception was the vote to confirm General Casey as Chief of Staff of the Army (Clinton: Nay; Obama: Yea) Sure, the rhetoric is different, but when the votes are counted, Obama is just as much of a hawk.

which is worse, in your opinion:

a: voting to start a war and then voting to continue it.

b: saying you are opposed to the war, that the war is evil and wrong, and voting to continue it?

Both are wrong, I think (b) is worse, since it shows moral cowardice, it's easy to talk until they start counting votes.

as for the 'race-baiting' there has been just as much on both sides (oh, I'm sorry, what was the message when Obama sent waves of African American pastors to South Carolina to talk only to black voters? that's not running a racially-based campaign either?)

Because there is no hope in this country anymore.

If she won "fair & square" that would be different, but there is no way for her to win now without overturning popular vote. Then I move to France.

of going off to another country whose poltical system is no better than the one you have? There is no country in the world that will satisfy all our wants and desires. I always have figured if anyone wants change they have to become a leader in their own right, no matter what the occupation in the work force or in the home or in the social arena.

Who are you kidding? Are you petitioning Kerry and Kennedy to vote as the voters of their state want them to? Your hypocrisy is showing.

Obama seems more than happy to win by ignoring the will of the voters in two of our largest states.

In fact, he is not only WILLING to ignore their votes, his campaign DEPENDS on it.

What if -- under the rules -- these voters finally get their chance to vote and vote against Obama and Hillary is the nominee.

How is that cheating?

I refuse to reward HRC for her tactics and frankly, the parties condoning of her garbage.

Anyone petulant enough to take their ball and go home if their candidate fails to secure the nomination, deserves what they get. Unfortunately, my kids, who DON'T deserve another four years of Repug governance, plus the added attraction of further SCOTUS appointments along the lines of Roberts and Alito, will bear the brunt of their tantrum. So, may I say in advance, if you plan to sit out the election if your candidate doesn't get the nod, FUCK YOU! Twice. In orifices not ordinarily designed for coitus.

it depends on how she might theoretically take it, and what followed that.

Plus, at least in my personal considerations, I have to consider exactly how hard it is to impeach a sitting supreme court justice.

:(

Crybaby Obama supporters need to grow up and develop a little pragmatism. If you didn't learn from the Nadar debacle in 2000, I guess you will never learn. If Obama gets the nomination, I'll vote for him even though I am a Hillary supporter at this time.

Since my primary vote doesn't count, the only difference for me is that I will send some money to Hillary if she gets the nomination.

Obama has moved into the "maybe" category. But, that is mostly because he's not Hillary.

nomination fall into the ranks of the do-nothing non-voters, willing to sit back, whine and let others take on the task of being politically active. My advice to those who are disappointed with the way our party system works: get politically active, don't reserve your interest in politics just during a campaign year; change is not made by people sitting on their asses.

How dare you presume to tell me how to be active?

Shut up.

Learn some manners sonny/missy.

it is therefore a reasonable interpretation that you are, well, a democrat. Therefore, it's a reasonable expectation that you will support the DEMOCRATIC PARTY in elections, and if you don't, then you aren't active in the party. see how that works?

That's painting a lot of people with a broad brush. People may have well thought-out reasons for not participating.

is a moron and I'll be glad when they're tombstoned from this site during the general.

Edwards did not win but you dont see me whining like a spoiled child and refusing to vote for Obama or Hillary because the candidate I would have prefered for the party lost.

I have no patience for the petulant children who threaten not to vote because their candidate didn't win.

Yours is the only valid opinion. How charming.

anyone who would enable the election of President McCain over Hillary Clinton is a moron. Seriously, look it up in the dictionary, I bet there's a picture and everything.

I said "significant"

if you don't know the significant differences between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party then perhaps you shouldn't vote.

wants what is best (or better) for this country. If you think I'm going to back down, you're dreaming.

If she steals the Michigan delegates then I cannot vote for her. In fact I will have to work against her because she is working in a way that is diametrically opposed to everything I stand for.

I live in Michigan and can honestly state that there is no way that I will vote for someone who purposely takes away my voice. If this goes through then my days of voting for Michigan Democrats is over. I'm not here to jump on some bandwagon or support a team. I look to our government to supply solutions based on a democratic republican structure in which my voice is heard. They have made sure it doesn't so far.

Remember all those highly principled Democrats and "independents" who thought the Dems and the Repukes were the same and Nader was the Second Coming? Thank them for making it easier for the Supremes to hand the election to Bush. Want more of the same? then sit out the election. Or better yet, be "pure of heart" and vote for Nader again.

I am voting for the DEM nominee.


And, who is this progressive candidate(s) you are talking about?

Both Obama and Clinton are centrists.

The only real, true progressive out of the 2008 contenders was Kucinich.

I am not an HRC supporter but I don't think she'd nominate RW Justices to the SCOTUS.

I do not think so and that's the real issue besides a lot of other huge issue's.

But she doesn't have enough delegates, last I checked, so it seems like a moot point to me.

I do think McLame will lose either way IF everyone votes!!!

who helped Richard Nixon get elected because they just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Humphrey.

As well as all the Dems who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Gore or Kerry and voted for Nader instead, or sat out the elections in 2000 and 2004, telling themselves their cause(s) would look more attractive to everyone, and be more likely to win, 4 or 8 years down the line.

We have so much to thank them for.

We don't have time for purists to have a snit fit and sit out an election if the party they belong to doesn't choose their candidate, and instead chooses someone with a very similar voting record and belief system who isn't the one they love.

We're in much worse trouble now - especially ecological trouble.

And there are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of lives at stake.

But maybe, if you sit this election out and help ensure McCain gets elected, your can all send nice apologies to all the people whose lives will be directly and negatively impacted by that Republican victory.

I'm sure they'll all understand why it was so important for you to sit this one out, as a matter of principle and self-righteousness.

And for the record - I supported Bobby Kennedy in 1968. That was a dream that was destroyed especially cruelly, and only weeks after I'd heard him speak and had a chance to shake his hand.

But even at 18, I knew that sulking about not having my idea of a perfect candidate in the race - and choosing instead to sit the election out - would be stupid.

In this particular election, with so much at stake, it would be even more stupid.

And if you don't believe me, try checking out the forum on the Environment instead of just hanging out in this forum.

..but if the ticket is McSame vs. Hillary, there isn't any other option. Won't matter if we vote or not.

and the Pres nominates judges for the Supreme CT.
If McLame gets in, you can bet a woman's right to choose will go Bye-bye. :(

"I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected." -Hillary Clinton

"If you can presume that a child is competent to make a decision, you still want that child to have parental guidance whenever possible. But realistically, we know that in many cases that is not possible.
I believe in parental notification." -Hillary Clinton

She thinks the state shouldn't be involved. Sometimes. Depending on who she's talking to. McLame's the same way.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (NY)

Abortion Issues

(Back to top)

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=55463

02/26/2008
Prohibiting the Funds in S 1200 from Being Used for Abortions
S Amdt 3896 to S Amdt 3899 to S 1200
NV
Amendment Adopted - Senate (52 - 42)

10/18/2007
Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions
S Amdt 3330 to S Amdt 3325 to HR 3043
NV
Amendment Rejected - Senate (41 - 52)

09/06/2007
Prohibiting U.S. Assistance for Groups that Support Coercive Abortion
S Amdt 2707 to HR 2764
NV
Amendment Adopted - Senate (48 - 45)

03/17/2005
Unintended Pregnancy Amendment
S Con Res 18
Y
Amendment Rejected (Senate) - (47 - 53)

10/21/2003
Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
S 3
---> N
Bill Passed (Senate) - S (64 - 33)




10/21/2003
Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
S 3
N
Conference Report Adopted (Senate) - S (64 - 34)

06/21/2002
Military Abortion Amendment
S 2514
Y
Amendment Passed (Senate) - S (52 - 40)

What a double standard.

In the past, even hints from supporters of other candidates that they would not vote Dem in the general if their candidate didn't win were met with calls for loyalty tests and banning and such.

Could I borrow your right to vote for a day in November?

WOmen's rights DEPEND on it so hold your nose and vote!

we need to win this election. The country, and the planet, can't afford a McCain victory. So I don't think it's any better for Clinton supporters to say they won't vote for Obama if he's the candidate (no matter how intolerant of other Democratic candidacies some Obama supporters are) than it is for Obama supporters to talk about sitting this one out.

...on a message board. Yet they do not impact my opinion on Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton earned my loathing all on her own.

and counting. Fuck them and fuck Barack Obama. Never in a million god damned years will I vote for him. McCain can promise to nuke the whole fucking planet if he's e;ected and I still won't vote for Barack Obama. How's that for unreasonable?

Normally I would say that every little bit counts. But sometimes I wonder in awe at the delusions of relevancy some DUers have about themselves.

Millions of Americans will vote in this election. If 100 or so DUers decide to boycott it loudly, what do they expect to change?

Through some miracle of national stupidity this country elects John McCain, it will be like GWB got a third term. What exactly will change?

I know I'm a sexist/racist/freeper for saying these things, but :wtf:. What's going to change?

and kiss the black vote goodbye
if she gets the nomination mccain should win easily and this is probably the neocon/dlc plan to begin with

I don't think DU is representative of Democrats in general. I'm fairly certain that the usual Democrats will still vote for the Democrat.

should they have to choosebetween him and Obama. Don't be naive, liberals are the minority in America.

say goodbye to Roe, and anything else SCOTUS can dismantle.

Personally, if Hillary is going to mimick McCain on Iran, I think maybe the country needs another four years of hell to wake the hell up. You would think Bush would have been enough. It wasn't.

I was going to vote for anyone with a D after their name. However, her recent rheoteric on Iran has given me serious pause. If Hillary steals this from Obama, it will cause a roar through the country. And, she will lose to McCain. Four years from now, the country will be ready for real change. Let McCain take the brunt for Bush.

I am still not decided.

from the Hope and Change faction.

How'd a nice guy like Obama get so many asshole supporters?

is what gets me

and I will vote this November as well. Who I vote for is another story.

IF she wins by convincing enough suepr delegates they should overturn the results in pledged delegates, I'll vote for her.

IF she wins because Michigan was seated based upon the results of the phony Stalinesque primary, not so much.

...someone who wants to change things. That's the basic premise of Progressive politics - wanting to walk away from the status quo to advance the ball forward.

That's Obama - not Hillary. She's just as establishment as McCain.

Obama isn't. That's why he has played this campaign clean, to make his point that things don't HAVE to be precisely the way they've been for decades with typical political bullshit. Even with Hillary dragging the campaign through the mud he hasn't opened up on her. He's handled all this with class and aplomb.

And it's going to win him the nomination.

despite the correlation between intelligence and education, and education and obama.

Seriously, I will only vote for Hillary if the contest appears close and in California, that's not likely. But in states where it might be close, people have no choice but to vote for her because of the Supreme Court.

as making bourgeois liberals feel good about themselves.

voting.

Anyone that sits out their vote this election is not a Democrat.