I'm sick of being held hostage by Clinton's ego. She will hold her breath until her face turns blue

in order to get her way.

Why does she want this so badly? The only reason I can see is that she wants it because she wants it. She figures she's got it coming (for whatever reason) and by gawd she's going to get it.

If I thought for one moment that she was exerting all this effort on behalf of US -- you and me, the designated peons of the New World Order -- I'd be thrilled out of my mind to see a sister woman fight like hell for justice and truth and a re-ordering of priorities and a shake-up of the status quo and all that kind of stuff.

But, come ON! That's not at ALL what she's about. She's "in it to win it" -- because that's what she wants, that is her deepest desire. It is for the sake of HER personal fulfillment that the entire Democratic party, and the poor hapless ill-informed Democratic voters, are all being thrown into a dark vortex of racial enmity.

I find it absolutely appalling. She's saying, "If you're white and you know what's good for you, you'll vote for me." She's saying to black voters, "There aren't enough of you to count in my calculations, white racists outnumber you. And I WILL have my way!"

I'm no big fan of Obama -- but, as I've posted before, I AM a big fan of the fact that lots of young people and previously unpolitically-involved people got activated by his campaign.

As I've also said before, (real) progressives would be fools not to make some effort to tap into these newly energized voters and steer them toward building a true progressive movement.

This is the one over-riding fact that pushed me to the Obama camp; the possibility of building a movement outside of electoral politics -- which, as I have also been constantly saying -- is the ONLY way we are actually going to effect change in our country.

Clinton is the antithesis of this. She just wants to tap into people's lizard brains so she can win.

sw

K&R!

:kick: & REC'D!

:kick:

Why wouldn't they want another go at it?

He outdoes Clinton in funding, which recently your ilk were bragging about, and now it's Clinton who just wants money?

Shallow and hateful, the bile-spewing continues. Then again, I should not expect more from the bratty idiots who are part of this "campaign."

DU is not a political discussion site anymore. It's a soapbox for brats.

Er...since you know your candidate no longer has any chance of being nominated...why?

I admire your...dedication...but, at this point, is it really worth it?

I'm sure the Clintons think they are the only people capable of leading this nation, and deserve to be compensated for their magnificent leadership, I just strongly disagree and am overjoyed that their death grip on our party has finally been broken.

Ask them what they want so badly.

another lifetime? And yet, she's still at it... to the BITTER end.

Against Bill. Subconsciously, of course.

a whole new look once an open government Democrat gets into the oval office and COOPERATES with investigations instead of siding with the secrecy and privilege of Bush and their cronies.

This is Bill's legacy as well as the Bushes, too.

Clintons swore they'd continue the Bush coverups for them? What did you smoke, and when are you going to get help?

Did he facilitate access to the documents that Bush1 had stonewalled for years or did he side with protecting the secrecy and privilege of Bush and his cronies?

Surely you MUST be familiar with BCCI since you try and portray yourself as someone steeped in DC knowledge here.

If we had justice then, we wouldn't have seen so many of the same assholes serving in the Bush administration. Bill said he wanted to move on to the business of the people, but punishing high crimes is the people business.

Wolf Blitzer acts like she's his fiance, fer cryin' out loud

Clinton's are way too cozy w/BFEE.

She also wants to go down in history as the first female President.

You have a choice whether or not to pay attention to her. Or rather, the caricature you have built in your mind.

I thought you had more sense than this. She's just a plain ol' corrupt politician, running against another politician in whose interest it is that she gets smeared as a racist.

As for building a movement on said politician's personality cult, well, good luck with that.

to not pay any attention to politics at all. And then there'd be no reason to be on DU. But I choose to pay attention. And when I see a national political figure dog-whistling white racism in a win-at-all-costs effort to claw her way to the top, I'm not going to ignore it and not call it out.

And, FYI, I completely stayed out of GD-P for the entire primary season until just 2 weeks ago. This is only my 4th post in this forum, my first GD-P post was on April 25. So I haven't exactly been obsessing over Clinton.

It's just now, the tack she is taking has gotten so ugly and destructive that I'm not willing to keep silent about it.

sw

Is that what you're dog-whistling here?

Why is it that the white people who economically benefit from racism never get the blame for it?

...about any or all the white working class being racists.

Nice attempt, but I don't think anyone is buying that brand of crap any more.

And yes, the purpose of that is to brand the white underclass as racists who should fuck off and vote for McCain.

There is no war but the class war, and the OP used to understand that.

So instead of complaining about other posters' takes on her words, why don't you tell us what you think she meant, what her purpose was, and why you think it was the right thing to do.

Why does she need to inject race into this, and what is her point, if not to divide?

That is based on exit polls. She was being factual.

Barack's spin on this phenomenon is that the working class white voter clings to racism and xenophobia.

Why hasn't it occurred to anyone here that the 'low-information voter' they like to denigrate as a racist is voting for HRC because of name recognition?

She was being factual. Fine. However, in this case, it was completely classless to be "factual". Obama could easily say things like "Hillary can't win the nomination because black people aren't voting for her." That is "fact". But does he say this? No. Why? It's because Obama is able to convey restraint and class.

When Obama is questioned on race, he always says the same thing... "Look, race always plays a part in politics, but let's not focus on that. We have two great candidates..."

When Hillary is questioned about race... "I just don't see how Obama can win the general election if white people won't vote for him." Hillary = classless.

The fact that you either don't see this, or refuse to this contrast is quite telling. Everyone knows the "facts". As a skinny person, when I see an extremely overweight person on the street, I don't go up to him and exclaim, quite factually, "You're obese and you look like a slob. I bet you can't get a date. You're not very attractive. Lots of institutions won't hire you because of your weight." All these are "facts", but I'd have to be a classess piece of shit to bring that up to someone. Sometimes, you keep your classless, stupid mouth shut. Hillary would be well served to follow that example.

Not the OP. She merely observed the fact that this kind of overtly racist political argument is an embarrassment to the Democratic party.

That's a contortion worthy of Cirque du Soleil.

who won't vote for a black man.

sw

But doing everything you can to stop working class white people from supporting a progressive African American presidential candidate is.

And acting as if African Americans CAN'T be working class(despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of them are) is racist.

And acting as if African Americans and working class whites can't unite behind the same candidate is racist. Especially if you are HOPING they won't(which is what all HRC supporters are now hoping for now that they know their candidate will never get African American support again.)

And all of the above is especially racist when you know your candidate can't win(and we both know that Indiana and North Carolina proved your candidate can't be nominated).

then implying that the poster said what they did not say.

Corporations in quite a few foreign countries, Do you really think Bill is going to be able to make $800,000 per speaking engagement any more? He hasn't brought in a dime since the campaign got into full swing.

The Clintons life and life style are at stake. They convienced a lot of people with really deep pockets that Hillary would get into the white house.

AND IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN NOW!

Fear, the nagging anxious kind, is wandering in unexpectedly. It's bound up with ego and expectations.

Pretty soon the Clinton's personal "stock" will plummet faster than cat food from China. Unless they show unusual creativity...judging from their recent creativity I doubt it.

It looks like they will not have the opportunity to get the Executive back so they can rectify a few things that were very important to them, righting some unrightable wrongs and such.

At this point it's not all about money..."lifestyle" to them means power and privilege. You can get addicted to the high of it.

NONE of what's happening now was on their agenda for this year. They haven't adjusted.

This is all just WRONG. They need a long vacation.

Of course, the problem is that a long vacation means that they'd have to actually deal with their relationship outside of the political sphere. Just speculating, of course, but I'm thinking that this might not be one of their favorite things to do.

sw

I tried to imagine them having a nice relaxing time somewhere "just the two of us"-- letting everything go and turning off their cell phones and staring at distant horizons....
I couldn't imagine it...
you're right, too much might come to the surface

the "fight or flight" mechanism resides.

sw

If anyone has taken the higher ground in this race, it's Hillary.

And btw, I don't support either candidate because I wanted and still want Edwards and/or Gore!

Why would someone apply quotes that were never made?

Appalling.

feelings. We're being extorted by hilary's narcissistic ego but she will not be the VP.

Here's a good article on hilary not knowing when to fold 'em..

"She plods ahead now, only in the race because she won Indiana by the size of a Knicks crowd, and all Hillary Clinton has left is giving people another month of reasons not to vote for the black guy.

She thinks she still has that going for her, along with the cockeyed notion that somebody who can loan herself more than $11 million to keep running for President is more of a working-class hero than Norma Rae.

"We're pleased with our result in Indiana," one of her flacks says on a conference call Wednesday, even though nobody believes it.

There is one moment of grace left for her and it is the inevitable moment she chooses to end her rock fight against Barack Obama and step aside. Sometimes that kind of grace comes from the one who knows when to throw in the towel, the way a trainer named Eddie Futch did in Manila when he wouldn't let Joe Frazier go out against Muhammad Ali for a 15th round.

You wonder who in Clinton's campaign can get her past her own vanity and narcissism and make her see that it is time for her to go. The Florida delegation isn't going to save her, the Michigan delegation isn't going to save her and neither are all the Clinton loyalists and has-beens on the Rules and Bylaws Committee of the Democratic National Committee. Nor is a middle class in this country that she sees as being inhabited only by whites."

<more>
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/05/08/2008-05-08_hillary_clinton_needs_to_know_when_to_fo.html?page=0

We are the reason she's still around. Try and wrap your head around that. We matter, even if we don't matter to you.

I think it's admirable to back someone against all odds and to stick with your gut. I simply don't understand, and I haven't for months, why Hillary supporters are bothering with anything beyond mere idol worship. The math has been clear for so long now, and everyone has known it, and yet the Clinton loyalists just refuse to acknoledge it, as if the math would somehow go away. It didn't. It couldn't. It won't. Why waste your energy and breath? I may as well be sending in donations to Edwards campaign still. Hillary can't win. Why is that so difficult to swallow?

Just like all the Edwards supporters did when he dropped out. Before Edwards gave up, there was not a single DU candidate poll where he didn't come out on top by a huge margin.

And before Kucinich dropped out, there was not a single DU candidate poll that didn't put HIM on top.

People do deal with their favored candidate dropping out of an election race, I've been here since 2001 so I've seen how it all goes down.

Never have a candidate's supporters been the ultimate driving force behind a candidate's staying or not staying, it's always the candidate who makes their own decision.

I was a Kucinich supporter -- as I had been in 2004 as well. When he dropped out in 2004, Kerry was already the presumptive nominee, so I reluctantly but resignedly re-channelled my money and energy into getting Kerry elected. The over-riding principle was getting a DEMOCRAT elected.

When Kucinich dropped out this time around, I moved over to the Edwards camp and sent him money. When Edwards dropped out, it meant that I'd have to look to someone else to carry a Democratic party victory forward. I didn't much like Obama, but I was damn sure that I didn't want a DLCer to get the nomination, so I've sort of ended up in the Obama camp by default.

I don't think the onus is on me at all. I've already practiced all the moving on that goes with being a supporter of someone who drops out. Why should I have to specially pamper the Clinton supporters?

sw

She is hanging on just for the sake of hanging on, and will bring the whole party down with her. Sad.

It appears to be a deal that the Clinton and Bush dynasties have worked out to "forgive" each other's transgressions. Clinton needs to win this badly because the Bush crime family need her to win.

If she becomes president, she will shut down any executive branch investigation of the Bush administration in the same way that Bill shut down investigations of Bush the First's many crimes in office.

If there is a someone other than a Bush or a Clinton in office, all bets are off as to where investigations might lead concerning both families.

It's not ego; it's very serious.

I sometimes watch the Spanish language station - Last year they were giving endless coverage of the George W Bush/Clinton visits to mexico and other Latin American countries.

Part of their charitable-ness (Poppy Bush and Bill) involves privatizing the water of the banana republics. Part of the appeal of Paraquay to the Bush family is the vast supply of water -- both above ground and also the under ground aquifers.

it does point to the possibility of potential favors. My antennae are up on that.

behind Hillary? They have just as much to hide and worry about if things aren't covered up and protected.

Could it be that they know Obama's on their side too? So they're just picking the candidate they like more?

Because don't forget, the corporate media, aka the GOP, are really the ones who picked BOTH Hillary and Obama for the masses. The people didn't have a thing to do with it.

If the people did, Edwards would still be in the race and would the front-runner as we speak.

(and I mean this analytically), her campaign reminds me directly of Dole's run for office, in that both felt the office was owed to them. Both were surprised when that didn't occur.

Clinton is "'the establishment/the power behind the curtain" vs. Obama/Dean's DNC "50 State Strategy/Grassroots" ...

How dare us little unwashed common people think we have a say in who runs the country?

THAT'S what it's all about ... more of the Corporate Way (pillaging and plundering the national infrastructure
for shareholder profits & CEO Golden Parachutes) vs. letting the Average Joe have a fair shot at a decent life.

and I'm sure many funding her want her to push on. She's in trouble and I don't think it's just with her campaign, but with those who vested alot in her.

just like the Repubs didn't do with the Neo-cons in 2000

That is precisely why there is no way in hell that I could support Clinton. I want the DLC run out of our Party. I want the DLC DEAD and GONE. Period.

sw

Throwing around insulting terms is not the same as making an argument.

As I said in my OP, I'm not fond of Obama; he has my support only because he's the last remaining alternative to both Clinton and McCain. I also take some solace in the fact that he's not anywhere near as entrenched in the Ruling Class power structure as Clinton, and so might be more vulnerable to pressure from We the Peons.

It's a thin reed, but still preferable to the sure corporatist and DLCer Clinton. That it's preferable to ANY Republican ought to be so self-evident as to go without saying.

sw

You can choose to hold your nose and pretend, but I'm not going to. Obama is no different than Clinton or McCain for that matter.

I'm looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, with a Buddhist definition of "ego".

sw

How can anyone still support someone for the office of president of the United States when their true character is shown to be that of a spoiled teenager? Yes she is a fighter but only for herself. No where can anyone give one example of where Hillary fought against the odds and suceeded in correcting a known wrong or getting help despite the struggle. What we have seen out of Hillary is lying, coniving, smoke and mirrors , out right racism, with a history of the same. The best thing anyone can do right now is let the people of WV and Kentucky know that they can vote for whomever they want but voting for Hillary only prolongs the inevitable (Barack as nominee) and threatens their best interests in the fall.

I mean, Hillary Clinton as the champion of the "common man" is an utterly laughable concept to me.

She's the head of the DLC, whose entire raison d'etre is to remove the "common man" out of the equation when it comes to the decisions that Power makes.

sw

I'm aboard the same bus. She drafted herself. No ground swell of genuine support propelled her to be a candidate. She decide she deserved her turn at the helm and she took it. I'm appalled at the sense of entitlement via her ambition. When you have, Rush Limbaughtomized Dittohead Oxycontin Pimpleass, and KKKarl 'Rat Fucker' Rove, cheerleading you it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

I wrote this on the Muckety.com website and thought you all might be interested in this story.

You can read the full story here:
http://news.muckety.com/2008/05/09/clinton-campaign-scrubs-name-of-fox-news-military-analyst-from-website/2681

/jd

The Clinton campaign, in an apparent effort to distance itself from a supporter who has received negative publicity of late, seems to have deleted his name from a press release published months ago on the Clinton web site.

Clinton announced at a Veteran’s Day event in 2007 that former Maj. Gen. Robert J. Scales Jr was among a group of high-ranking military brass joining the campaign’s Veterans and Military Retirees for Hillary Committee.

Last month David Barstow of the New York Times provided a detailed account of how the Pentagon used Scales and other retired military officers as “message force multipliers” or “surrogates” to spin the Bush administration’s views on Iraq when they acted as military analysts for the media.

Today, six months after the Veteran’s Day event, mention of Scales has been scrubbed from the press release on Clinton’s campaign web site - well, sort of.

The campaign “appears to be trying to distance themselves from (Scales). The motive for the deletion is not clear without an addendum and it causes suspicion,” she said. “I would err on the side of being transparent. You took it out and didn’t tell us why and it makes us suspicious.”

http://news.muckety.com/2008/05/09/clinton-campaign-scrubs-name-of-fox-news-military-analyst-from-website/2681

They weren't analysts for the media, but her assertign (and therefore giving credibility) to the idea that Iraq had ties to Al Qaeda during her IWR speech... well that's some very powerful spin.

She also propped up the "Iraq was a threat" spin 10 months into the war... as support for the war was starting to drop.

I see other reasons how this might actually be helping.

And you know what? I think Obama's a strong enough candidate to deal with this.

I also think that all these states that have in the past had a "what difference does it make?" attitude about their votes... well this time they do. That's got to feel good... and more than that, it's got to be helping to draw more people who were previously disinterested into the political process, and I think that's an awfully nice silver lining, don't you?

I'm defintitely ALL for drawing more people into the political process.

The thing is, I want them to be drawn in by a hunger for truth and justice, not by an appeal to their unconscious or unadmitted racism.

sw

but did you consider that maybe she really really passionately believes she's better than Obama? If she was up against a republican, you'd be cheering her on, cause you'd agree with the fact that she's better. Even if delusional, maybe she really thinks she is, and will do all she can to win it.

Doesn't matter, the conflict isn't hurting the dems at all. It's controversial, it's tense, it's dramatic, it's... entertainment. It has made millions of people who were otherwise detached from politics get informed, it's made millions of people pick a favorite. It's making millions of people politically active. And come GE, they're going to be voting for a Democrat.

sabotage our party through their love of the public spotlight, I can't change that.
But I'm way past tired of people telling me how I have to coddle them. That's bullshit.

with becoming Prez.

If she had won she would have gone down in history as the Jackie Robinson/MLK for women.


Her presidential library would have been a pantheon tribute to the woman's movement


200 years from now school children would know all about her an watch the holiographic biography of her


It was about being on Mount Rushmore

That by staying in she can try to recoup some of her loaned funds,
and put herself in position that the party feels they must give
her the VP slot...

Plus it doesn't hurt for her to be still a candidate thru West Virgina,
as it wouldn't look good for her to be officially dropped out, and still
wins that state (not saying that's a reason just lucky happenstance).

---
"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground."

she could have won Nentucky with out playing the RACE CARD.

She could have won it because they simply liked her and supported the Clinton name.

That's why I don't understand why she is playing this race card so hard.

I don't even care if she stays in the Race until the end, just stop the division talk.

She did it out of the awful fear that she won't win.

sw

This is the second time today I've seen this stuff here. Could you please link where Clinton said this??

"If you're white and you know what's good for you, you'll vote for me."

"There aren't enough of you to count in my calculations, white racists outnumber you. And I WILL have my way!"

I am absolutely no fan of H. R. Clinton and never have been, I only just prefer Obama to her, but I detest quotes without sources. When did she say these things??


Link??

You look like the odd one to me.

I'm sick of cranky Obama loon rants.

that you don't "know" her any more than I do.

And I'm not sure by what criteria you can judge me an "Obama loon", since I state quite clearly in my OP that I am not all that fond of Obama either.

Care to try again?

sw

Astrological Characteristics Scorpio:
The SCORPIO Oct. 24 - Nov. 21

Scorpios never quit and never surrender.

Good: Determined, Forceful, Emotional, Intuitive, Powerful, Passionate, Exciting and Magnetic

Bad: Jealous, Resentful, Compulsive, Obsessive, Secretive and Obstinate

Intuitive and ever curious, Scorpios are the great investigators of the Zodiac. They want to know everything about everyone. When an answer is needed, a Scorpio will find it for you. Unfortunately Scorpios seem to see only in black and white. They always have their own agenda and never fail to promote it.

Scorpios are the masters of their fate. They know only one way to live: on their own terms. They do not live life but attack it. When life hands them a loss, they do not waste time sulking, but rather continue on their path, sure they will eventually succeed. Scorpios are driven by their intense passions and desires. Often they are seen as imperious.

Scorpios are a secretive lot. Those around them may never know the depth of their passions. Probing the Scorpio psyche will only make them leery and cause them to flee. Whether in business or play, Scorpios love to compete. Indeed to do well, they must have an opponent. Scorpios do not take slights well. If you cross them be assured they will retaliate with their full force. Scorpios never quit and never surrender. If anyone can get a difficult task done it is a Scorpio.

Scorpios can be unduly domineering in personal relationships, especially should they perceive their partner to be weaker than themselves. Their biggest problem is finding someone who, while strong enough to maintain a tempestuous lifestyle, is interesting enough to remain a challenge. Once they find the right person they will mate for life.

Famous Scorpians Include:

Hillary Clinton, Marie Antoinette, Marie Curie, Theodore Roosevelt, Bill Gates, Picasso, Christopher Columbus, Mohammed, Prince Charles, and Voltaire

Ideal Jobs Include:
Scorpions are well-suited for careers as doctors, investigators, ecologists, managers, engineers, navigators and secret agents.

http://www.sexualastrology.com/zodiac_horoscope_scorpio.html

Let it not be said that I can't relate to Hillary Clinton. I also know the difference between the creative side of that energy and the destructive side.

sw

A good thing to be but like you said it is the creative vs. the destructive.

Cheers!

:hi:

creative and destructive side. Julia Roberts is a Scorpio, too.

this is pretty bad and any state that backs her looks a little bit racist as well.

Great Caesar's ghost. :eyes:

Edit: However, as hopefully everybody knows? voting for Senator Clinton doesn't mean somebody's racist? Hopefully.
Cheers.

Welcome to Ignoreland.

you have no idea why clinton is staying in against almost mathematically certain odds ? Or you do have an idea and you realize there is an ugly and nefarious truth that you are too weak confront. Don't give other people shit because you are too blind or crooked.

Apparently, I don't share your definition of "trash talk".

sw

which right up there with "I am toughening him up for the coming Republic assault"

Did she tip her hat that she already knew she would lose?

and who the $(*# does she think she is, YODA?!?!?

...part of this is that, morality aside, she and Begala are right. They're right and I hate them for it.

There aren't enough African American and traditional Obama supporters (true progressives, academics, college educated folks who want change, etc) to win it. That's almost exactly the same coalition McGovern put together in 1972 and it was an unmitigated disaster for the Democrats. To this day, it is the textbook example of how not to run for President. Dukakis and Mondale don't even come close.

He can't win but he'll be nominated anyway. He'll have to be or there might not be a Democratic party.

You know, if Hillary doesn't step down and shut her mouth, we could have race riots in Denver. One of the guys on KGO was talking about it the other night.

Can you imagine the impact of having a race riot at the Democratic national convention...on live television?

Can you imagine what Fox News would do with something like that?

Forget the White House. I think the Dems would lose Congress.

and they want her in because they cant beat obama-not rocket science

I hope you had a lovely Beltane.

sw

Bob Dole don't need this...

Absolutely.

:thumbsup:

Move away from GDP and start the McCain bashing party early. Once we all start piling on him, it will be short work.

Good god I hope your thoughts multiply here!

:-)

We just need to make damn sure we replace her Senate seat with another Democrat. How about Mario Cuomo?

But if she's who New Yorkers really want, I can live with that. As long as enough REAL Democrats get elected to offset and ultimately negate the DLC.

sw

GET RID OF THEM!

They have high-jacked our party & turned it into quasi-Repubs.

I don't support either candidate, but this is total bullshit. DU has turned into a cesspool of Obama supporters calling racism at every fucking turn!

BTW, you've got it the wrong way round. It's Obama who hasn't stopped the smear job on Hillary and her supporters of racism. Why in the hell can't white people support Hillary if they want to?! WTF?!

:wtf:

this strange panic/hysteria in the obama camp at this point in the game is pretty darn odd. one minute they scream 'WE WIN! WE WIN!' and the next they are screaming 'racist' at the slightest criticism. you'd think people confident of victory would be a lot more, well, confident.

You are not making an honest argument.

sw

:D

:loveya: :hug: :toast: :bounce: :toast: :hug: :loveya:

:*
sw

The African American community has grown weary of paternalistic politicians "helping" them while counting on their votes. They don't want to hear from the "not as bad" candidate who courts the "white working class", "blue collar", vote by reassuring them that they alone are the backbone of the country and the "good" people.

They don't want a kindly boss, they want someone who will represent them.

And, there are a helluva lot of whites who aren't buying into the "work hard, play by the rules", rhetoric of the bosses.

And even if it's only a flesh wound to start, I still hope that all the voters who rejected the Clintons will keep jabbing at it until it DOES become a mortal wound.

Lovely to find you in my thread! :*

sw

:hi:

My first ever thread on the home page! I was, like, WOO HOO! (my big ego, you know :D )

:loveya:
sw

As is well illustrated by a certain politician from NY who thinks that the mirror she's looking in is a window looking out.

"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians. Now, to go and stick one at the very head of government couldn’t be wise." - Mark Twain

:hug:
sw