Twelve things Obama must do to get my vote

Twelve things Obama must do to Get my Vote

Disclaimer, I live in Wyoming so my vote for Obama wouldn’t matter anyway, as this state will go McLame. The Electoral College is BS.

1. He, his supporters, and the media must stop implying I’m a racist. I am not; my objection to Obama has always been based on issues. The Write controversy was MSM driven bullshit.
   


2. He, his supporters, and the media must stop insinuating I’m uneducated. I am not, and I don’t need to justify my education level to anyone. This isn’t my job interview, it is Obama’s, and no matter what my level of education I have a right in this country to express my opinion, as do you.

Now that the MSM driven divisiveness has been addressed..., and BTW the MSM is the real koolaid and most drink like pigs.


3. He must clearly support gay rights on the campaign trail and his website. Especially considering his questionable associations with anti-gay zealots. His website has no specific link for gender rights. The only mention of sexual orientation is in his PDF on Civil Rights. Sorry, not enough for this important progressive issue.
   


4. His plans for Americans with Disabilities (of which I am one) must be based in reality. He purposes to “mandate a reasonable amount of paid sick leave”. His definition of “reasonable”? Seven days a year. Thanks. Can’t you at least give us two weeks, please? Plus, if he can “mandate” sick time, how about mandate health coverage for all? (see item two below)
   


5. He will not convince me on nuclear power, I oppose it because the industry wants to use the west as a dumping ground for nuclear waste. He is clearly in the pocket of the nuclear industry. His own statements on the issue are contradictory:
   


“Obama will also lead federal efforts to look for a safe, long-term disposal solution based on objective, scientific analysis…”



“Barack Obama believes that Yucca Mountain is not an option. Our government has spent billions of dollars on Yucca Mountain, and yet there are still significant questions about whether nuclear waste can be safely stored there.”



Ding, ding, ding…there is no “safe” storage of nuclear waste, hence the failure of Yucca Mountain. The path to energy independence should not include nuclear power, IMHO. Again, another progressive view he fundamentally does not seem to share. Explain your vote on the Republican sponsored "gift to the oil companies" Energy Bill, please, and then make sure you remind me the lobbyists have no influence on you (see six below).


6. Stop saying you would take money from NASA to fund education. Does he realize the innovations and technology generated from the space program? He states that we have no business fully funding a space program when we can’t educate engineers and scientists. I would counter that we can’t inspire young people to pursue math and science unless we give them aspirations to aspire to, like the space program. Also, does he realize the employment base of NASA and related industries? JFK recognized the value of challenging Americans to not limit ourselves to this planet. If Obama we're truely "part of the StarTrek generation", he would triple funding for NASA. We can fund both education and NASA. Reform education; stop wasting money teaching to the test. Plus, he does realize that education is primarily funded by the states, right?
   


7. Be honest about lobbyists and their money and influence on your campaign. See nuclear power above. He has plenty of former and currently registered lobbyists on his campaign roll. I’ll let his own newspaper argue this one for me: "http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-lobbying_bdfeb10,0,7215849.story?page=1".
   


8. Come out against the death penalty, not just reform of the death penalty. For a bunch of so-called progressives, his supporters baffle me on this one as well. Pressure your candidate to take more progressive stands. Unfortunately we have no opponent of the death penalty from which to choose. This is sad, as we remain the only civilized country that still condones this punishment. I’m against it not necessarily on humanitarian grounds (all valid), but because it makes me nervous that my government has a legal way to kill me.
   


9. Faith – to all candidates and the MSM, keep your religion out of my politics. Period. You violate the constitution every time you mix the two. This is why the reverend Write stuff meant nothing to me. It is your right to attend, or not attend, the church of your choice. But, I want a promise that your religious choices will not affect your policy decisions (see twelve above). Religion does not equal morals, and I really don’t need speeches on your conversion to Christianity to make me vote for you. Again, I thought many progressives would be with me on this one.
   


10. Stop pandering please. If you’re going to run a “different” campaign then stop trying to tell me what I know you can’t possible accomplish.
    



“The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.” Cool! HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THIS!!!


“…a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans.” Cool! HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THIS!!!




Cut Pork Barrel Spending, Make Government Spending More Accountable and Efficient, End Wasteful Government Spending


If I had a nickel for every politician that promised these things I wouldn’t need social security when I retire! Not one has gotten it done, with the possible exception of Al Gore, as vice-president he did indeed try and control wasteful government spending.

This has been part of my problem with Obama, he always seems to tell me things I already know. Like for example, I listened to a speech he gave in Pennsylvania were he said “The American people are finally realizing that the billions we spend in the war can be better spent at home.” Really? I never would have guessed that! Except he is wrong! I keep hearing if we weren’t in a war we could do all these pie-in-the-sky programs. But, we forget that Bush has financed this war on loans from the Chinese. Even if we pulled out TODAY, that money is not available to be spent on other programs, unless you intend to keep borrowing? He is on MSM in Oregon right now feeding this pandering line again. No president will be able to implement any new major spending programs until the deficit is under control and we are out of Iraq, that won’t happen in a first term and given the mess, may not happen in a second. Plus, save social security first, give me universal health care second, and then you can talk to me about the rest. To me most of this is just as much a pander as the gas tax holiday BS.


11. Admit your health care plan isn’t universal and quit calling it that, please. I’ll let Paul Krugman argue this one for me: "http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/opinion/30krugman.html".
    Perhaps this is why Obama appeals to the younger voter. Most people between the ages of 18-34, if they are healthy, don’t really believe they ought to be forced to buy health care. But then I end up paying for the injuries in car accidents, sports injuries, cancer treatments and all the other things most adults know can befall any one of us any time. Note to young people, you are not indestructible.
    


12. Lastly the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. To me this is THE issue of this campaign. I have two sons, one about to turn 18 and the other in two years. I don’t want to see them go to war, and if you don’t believe we are on the brink of WWIII, then, well, go stuff your head back in the sand please. Obama must convince me he understands the Middle East and that the window to avoid a larger conflict is losing, rapidly! From his “plan” (really read his PDF, I can't make this shit up):
    



"He would call for a new constitutional convention in Iraq, convened with the United Nations, which would not adjourn until Iraq’s leaders reach a new accord on reconciliation."



Okay, he does know that a constitution in Iraq has been already written, approved and reconciliation is still being attempted and that so many of our soldiers died, were maimed or are dying trying to protect the process, right?. And, how would our founding fathers of reacted if England had said “hey, you can have your independence, but let us, France, Russia and China help you write it, after all we know your culture and have your best interests at heart"!?! I respect the UN greatly, but this is not their responsibility, it is the Iraqi's and ours. This part of his plan is an insult, to our soldiers and the Iraqi people.

I don’t care that he would have voted against IWR at the time because he didn’t have to make that decision, so he can SAY anything he wants. Plus, he wasn’t privy to the BS the white house was feeding congress. Frankly, I don’t care about anyone’s votes on the matter in the past. All I care about is how are you going to remedy the situation going forward. How are you going to protect and care for our troops? Please, ask me to sacrifice something, please.

To win me over he must immediately adopt this: "http://biden.senate.gov/press/press_kit/downloads/BIDEN-GELB%20EMERGES%20_9-20-07.pdf"

I don’t care about Biden’s endorsement, and he shouldn’t either, he should prove he knows a good idea when he sees it, period. This is the only plan that has a realistic view of what it takes to get out and puts in place a plan to try and salvage peace for the Iraqi people, because what we have done to them and their country is criminal. I’m torn on this issue because we devastated their country and now we just want to leave? But, we can't stay because it is bankrupting this country. It is not right; the whole thing is fucked up. Obama must prove to me he has a grasp of the Middle East and this would be a first step.


----------------------------------------------------
There you have it, I’m listening, convince me, please. Otherwise, I’m not voting for him, however, I promise not to vote for McLame either and I’ll vote democrate down ticket as well.

when u say right off the bat that u dont think ur vote matters...

look, if youre even thinking of voting mccain over obama then maybe you arent a democrat and you should reanalyse your stances on issues and how they match up between obama and mccain.

I promised at the end not to vote for McLame.

that you haven't read Obama's website and platform.

He does openly support the gay and lesbian community.

NASA's funding does need to be cut. You don't waste money on a car payment when you don't know how to drive. It's also worth pointing out that NASA has no flights scheduled for ten years after they retire the current shuttles. Funding can be expanded once you turnout enough qualified people to fill the jobs. The last thing I want is to put several tons of rocket fuel under a shuttle that costs tens of billions of dollars by a person who received a D in science and math.

I agree with you about nuclear power and his health care plan, but Hillary's plan wasn't universal either.

For number 12 you say "read this PDF", what PDF? You have no link.

The rest of your points are nothing more than Hillary, or rethug wedge issues.

Now allow me to make a list.

1. If you're ignorant enough to allow your decision to be swayed because you don't agree with someone on the internet, then you're ignorant enough to get the government you deserve if you don't vote for the Democratic nominee and McCain gets sworn in.

2. What happens if Obama doesn't meet your 12 demands? Are you going to vote for four years of McSame?

3. Why put this here? Do you think Obama hangs out on this site and will read this?

He discussed nuclear power when asked about it. Find the video.

numerous times.

Type Biden Gelb Iraq for the plan, sorry I don't know why the pdf link won't work. It is my first major post on this site an my html is a little rusty.

On NASA, we agree to disagree.

----

You do not help your cause by calling me ignorant. see item number 2

I want the government we all deserve, that is why I ask questions and demand answers. If I had the answers, I wouldn't have posted.

AGAIN I WONT VOTE FOR MCLAME

I posted here because I don't believe I'm the only one who is not convinced Obama is a good candidate. I didn't post a flame-bait about how he can't get elected (I don't believe that), I posted my sincere concerns about his candidacy.

Please, be civil, I was.

site: a place
cite: a reference, a citation
sight: vision

Homonyms are a bit tricky. :)

you know, I never know if it is my bad spelling or a typo. In this case, it was a typo. I'm used to an ergonomic keyboard and tonight I was on my son's laptop.

racist is Hillary herself, when she says that Barack can not win because "the American white working class" will not vote for him. It can be said that she is in fact saying that all the white working class in America are racist. If Hillary can call Barack an "elitist" for implying that small town people are "bitter" over their present situation, then she should really be held accountable for this comment.

By the way. What Hillary Clinton would have to do to get my vote.

1. Divorce Bill.
2. Appoligize for her actions during this campaign.
3. Tell the truth, and I mean the whole truth about what she, and hers, have done.

Okay, there is no use going on. There is no way I would vote for her. I have met Barack, I know his good and bad points, and I would vote for him a hundred times before I would even cross the road to vote for her.

thing to say. your other 2 i can live with, but take your divorce bullshit and stick up your ass.

Sorry my hemorrhoids won't allow it. The first condition was mainly a joke, a throw away, a bit of sarcasm. Should have used the :sarcasm: sign for the whole post. But then I did divorce a man who was a habitual liar and cheat, so I might expect the same from her. In reality, what she does in her personal life is her own business. I felt that way when the big controversy was going on, and supported them during their eight years in the White House.

It is only now that I have been so turned off to Bill and his doing and saying anything to win that I find him repulsive. Sorry, but it is one thing to lie when you are being attacked and another when you are doing the attacking. I feel the same about Hillary, but to a lesser extent.

I have edited this post several times in an attempt to make it a bit more explanatory. I have probably failed, but so be it. :boring:

while i guessed it was some kind of sarcasm, enough is said here already on what should be no ones business.

implying you are a racist?

I haven't heard obama say anything about the "white" voters.

in WY it won't make a difference.

it was hillary that is the one that called you uneducated and insinuated that you were racist. maybe you ought to address her. obama has never called you racist nor uneducated

in 2000. However I worked my backside off turning out Florida voters for him. We turned out so many voters that we overcame all the carefully planned disenfranchisement, ballot discarding, and ballot box stuffing the republicans planned to "deliver" our state. The rest is in the history books.

If we did nothing else, we got GWB off to a really poor start. I have never regretted the effort.

In 2004, John Kerry was not my dream ticket, but my wife worked for him full time as a volunteer and I spent evenings and weekends working to get him over the top. To this day, I do not regret a minute of that either.

I agree with you on the NASA issue, though.

And Obama is too smart to openly pander to liberals on the death penalty, gays, etc.

He knows he has the White House in his hand if he doesn't blow it, and he is not going to blow it.

your agreeing he is a politician who will/will not pander, based on the audience? So does he believe in gay rights, or is he pandering to the bias of the majority of the country? Polls show the majority of young people is more tolerant of gay rights, so why no embrace it, much of his "new" base is young.

Thank you, that is point 1. I will vote for a politician who at least admits he must pander to get elected.

He's not going to have to kiss anybody's ass this year to beat McCain, thanks to W.

wants Obama to kiss her ass and then she will be satisfied.

When they start out with the "I'm not a racist" then you know where that is heading. Obama has never called anyone racist, last I heard that was Hillary. Also, I'm sick of them wanting their ass kissed and I often wonder what is behind that, I mean really? What position are you in to demand that your ass be kissed when Obama has brought in all these new voters for the GE? People tend to forget that because after all they are wanting a ass kissing.

There are millions and millions of people across this country in vastly different circumstances, all of whom have a right to have their interests and agendas represented. My interests and what direction I want to see the country go has to be balanced with the interests and direction that others want. There are 300 million other people all with voices as important as mine.

So the idea isn't to stridently reject any candidate that isn't a carbon copy of you, as being somehow against your interests. But rather to find the balance that leans your way. Because rejecting anybody who isn't meeting your exact list of issue demands, is non-productive.

Besides, we're not talking about someone who is pro-choice vs anti-choice or pro-gay vs anti-gay. We're talking about variations in how pro-choice and how pro-gay. Both hillary and obama support the same issues for the most part. Outside war and trade, they agree on most things.

It reminds me of the folks in school who were wound so tight and so narrowly focused, that they acted like an A- was an F, because it wasn't an A+. They had no real grasp of the bigger picture.

Does the op thinks mcsame is going to do more to move the issues on that list forward, than obama?

Under People/GLBT. PDFs. Right on the front of the blog.

Obama's NASA Plan

Strengthen Math and Science Education: Fifty years after Sputnik, science and math education in American schools is facing a crisis. As the Gathering Storm report concluded, "danger exists that Americans may not know enough about science, technology or mathematics to contribute significantly to, or fully benefit from, the knowledge-based economy that is already taking shape around us." Barack Obama will make math and science education a national priority, and provide our schools with the tools to educate 21st-Century learners.

Recruit High-Quality Math and Science Teachers: Barack Obama's will establish a Teaching Service Scholarship program to recruit an army of new teachers. These scholarships will prioritize recruiting math, science and technology degree graduates. Obama will create Teacher Residency Programs to train teachers using mentorship, graduate study and hands-on training to develop 30,000 teachers a year, providing additional teachers in math and science. In addition, Obama will devote $100 million a year to Professional Development Schools to help new teachers, or veteran teacher needing to hone their skills, learn from professionals in the field. Professional Development Schools will partner universities with school sites that exhibit state-of-the-art practices and train new teachers in the classrooms of expert teachers while they are completing coursework.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/lennybellisario/gGgRqZ



NASA's mission--to understand, to explore, and to inspire--depends upon educated, motivated people with the ingenuity to invent new tools, the passion to solve problems, and the courage to ask the difficult questions. It is not enough to depend on the excitement generated by our images. NASA must use its discoveries and achievements to engage the education community. To do so, we provide meaningful, educational, and content-rich programs that inspire and motivate students at all levels to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM).
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/55405main_22%20EP.pdf



Feds fund $68.6 billion per year—$59.2 billion in discretionary appropriations and $9.4 billion in mandatory appropriations—and operates programs that touch on every area and level of education. The Department's elementary and secondary programs annually serve more than 14,000 school districts and approximately 56 million students attending some 97,000 public schools and 28,000 private schools.
http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/index.html?src=ln

But, he could have put a stop to it long ago, instead his campaign sent out memo's encouraging the MSM bullshit. I don't see much unity in his actions.

Agree, he is wrong on NASA.

then, why assume something you have no proof of basically you just felt
like spouting without having any shred of evidence that Obamas campaign
has parroted racism and has been caught red handed making racist comment.

You must have taken a wrong turn and you actually missed your exit which is
on the right.

en counting...

he personally, has not called me racist or stupid. If I could I would remove the "He" from 1,2. But, if you think that many of his supporters haven't engaged in that nonsense then you must not read much of what goes on around here. And there is plenty of evidence that his campaign has given a wink and a nod to the MSM on this bullshit once they saw it had legs.

This crap, and I put the blame mainly on the MSM, has torn this party apart. It isn't pretty and I want to talk about the issues. I started with 1&2 in an attempt to say don't bother with those arguments/attacks. I actually tried to format my list another way and reverse it, but because I had not tried a long post in HTML on this forum before, I messed it up and ended up ordering the list backwards. I should have reversed it and started with Iraq.

I should have know many would just blow the rest off, which is part of my frustration with Obama supporters.

My main priority is moving away from oil to renewable energy, which I do think is the biggest challenge we have.

If you don't think he is better on these issues than John McCain, then I don't know what to tell you.

satisfy on all twelve, I'll grant you that.

But, for example, NASA and Gay Rights are very important to me, I have to decide if I trust him to lead the country for these two issues. Right now, I'm not convinced.

Obama wants a national policy of non-discrimination on all of this, all GLBT deserve equal rights in America.........we all agree on that, and Obama endorses that concept, and will work to make it reality. Hillary would leave it up to the states!!!

So, as far as I am concerned, Obama goes further than Hillary in promises to the GLBT community.

Move on.

Gay right and NASA?

No where in the post did I say McLame was better, again I won't vote for that man, period. My point is, I may not vote the presidential ticket.

Why threaten or try to control others?

If you don't want to vote - DON'T.

You say that you live in red state, that's only because someone like you threatens, then does not vote in the election. This is why rethugs consistently win elections. Just because a state is blue doesn't mean they don't try and turn it red. They've been working on California for years and one day there may be just enough people like yourself to make it happen for them.

On second thought, what a stupid idea that is. We don't each get to have our own personal, pet candidate who bows, yields, and kneels to our every wish and demand. Be real. My advice since you live in Wyoming: don't vote for Obama, but kudos for saying you will not vote for McCain.

This whole "We the people" is a dream then. I'm not asking him to meet every demand. But I have a right to hold him accountable, something we forget, as voters we have the power to do!

I tried to cover the major stuff with which I have reservations on, and which I seek leadership on. I want my president to lead and my congressman/woman to bow, yeild and kneels to our every wish (actually that would be nice, after the puke Barbara Cubin we've had for years here in WY).

Susan

isn't clear on important issues and is vague in the very few indefinitive plans he has thrown out.

this always kills me. Of course he explains his positions...just like Hillary does...on his website. I'm sure you've caught many of the town hall meetings that have been streamed on the net, and so you know his first three priorities as President. Just because the talk shows haven't heard it, doesn't mean it hasn't been said.

We the people means everybody, not just you and your particular list of demands.

You are free to stay home and pout because Obama wasn't good enough for you on gay rights or NASA, that's your right.


However the question isn't if you have that right, but rather it is if you think that act will have a net positive effect on your issues or a net negative effect.

The idea that you'd refuse to vote for someone who advanced your issues, simply because you feel they do not advance them enough... when the alternative is someone who doesn't advance them at all. Well that's just dumb and self-absorbed, as well as a clear demonstration that you really don't seem to grasp how social change happens on a political landscape.

Progress is a series of incremental changes compounded over time. Change does not happen over night, never has and it never will, no matter how many lists you make nor how many times you refuse to vote.

I believe in your OP is titled "Twelve things Obama must do to get my vote" You do not say Obama should consider doing some of these things to get my vote. It is a "Must do" list.

and I thought just Republicans were pompous

Grantcart made me laugh.

Laughter is #2 on my list.

#1 is being the Democratic nominee.

We are talking about organizing a mass political party to represent the interest of the 130 million people. We don't have the luxury of offering individual lists of demands.

We are interested in taking power in the most powerful government in the world. It requires direction and discipline. Individual narcissistic pompous boutique shopping lists of individual interest have no place. If you are interested in those issues then go to your local caucus and stand for a delegate go to the county convention and argue for the platform. Continue to the state and national level. Power doesn't come to you, you have to take it.


Oh BTW if your going to try and insult someone's intelligence its a good idea to spell the words correctly moran.

Take a bow grantcart. I don't know what that OP was thinking when trying to take you on. :applause:

I require that it must be one that looks nice and not too expensive.

And it's gotta be a Pro. Us elitists don't bother with regular MacBooks.

A HERRING!

:rofl:

the OP includes obama supporters, can I get you something? Some miracle gro or something for your shrubbery?

:silly:

just leave them in the barn at my manger!

:rofl:

and a new car.

But ask for more gold and silver so you can buy the car. He'd probably pick the wrong color!

What does an end to Roe v Wade have to do to get your vote?
What does more wars have to do to get your vote?
What does another great depression have to do to get your vote?

I won't vote for McLame.

I'm very worried about Roe V Wade, but given the current makeup of the court, that ship may already have sailed. I'm convinced they will rule to strike down Row V. Wade and leave it up to the states. Then we will have states that do and states that don't and young women will die needlessly.

Please see # 12 for my feelings on the war. Did you bother to read it?

I think we may already be on the brink of a depression, they are like a snowball you know, in another year when the next POTUS takes office, we will already be in one.

god help us all.

And maybe a bug zapper.

we can hire my granson Mikey-he's got these big blue eyes and finds every soon to be dead fly that sneaks past the DMZ of my sliding screen door

Can he use the computer? 'Cuz if so he sounds perfect! :hi:

is a bad ass on Sprout Kids

Sprouts eh? A little elitist already. :loveya:

The choice is between Obama and McCain and if you're not bright enough to see that Obama is the better choice then you can't be convinced.

I am so sick of hearing from hillary supporters who think that Obama or his supporters owe them something. We don't. Get over yourself.

I didn't even mention her name, I have moved on, why don't you.

you. That is simply classless.

A different Cheney?

Random Wyoming Hillary supporter?

If you can't understand why Obama, not McCain, is the person to vote for, I don't think anything said on the DU message boards will be sufficiently processed by your brain to move you into Obama's column.

Enjoy the pizza.

I can't stand Lynne Cheney and I've met her personally. Talk about elitist....

Again, I'm not a Hillary supporter. Just because I don't like Obama, does not automatically put me in the Hillary camp.

Again, I won't vote McLame....but, I just don't think Obama is the right man for the job, at this time...he certainly has the GE to convince me.

Pizza, where, I've been at this all afternoon and I'm hungry!!!

The delicious irony is that in another thread today, we had a pretendant complaining that Obama was too Gay loving because he wants to expand the Hate Crimes Statutes. He can't win can he?

I'm not going to get into it but the Middle East is the entire reason I ever even looked at Obama. I want no more American, Iraqi or Iranian deaths.

Just do the right thing. It's not anyone's job to convince you to do what's right for your own kids who, I hope, stay safe and far away from war.


As far as gender rights go, there's a section on Obama's website about it. The LGBT link is on his homepage, under PEOPLE. http://www.barackobama.com/people/




Expand Hate Crimes Statutes

In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported.
Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes law to include crimes perpetrated
because of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Fight Workplace Discrimination and Promote Rights

Obama believes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act should be expanded to include sexual orientation
and gender identity. Obama sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples

Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as
married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal
health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights. Obama also believes we need
to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal
legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex
couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.

Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage

Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have defined marriage as between
a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried
couples.

Repeal Don’t Ask-Don’t Tell

Obama believes we need to repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. The key test for military service
should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Obama will work with military leaders
to repeal the current policy and ensure we accomplish our national defense goals.

Fight AIDS Worldwide

Obama has been a global leader in the fight against AIDS. He traveled to Kenya and took a public HIV
test to encourage testing and reduce the stigma of the disease. Obama worked to reauthorize the Ryan
White CARE Act, one of the largest sources of federal funds for primary health care and support services
for HIV/AIDS patients.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf

An intelligent response!

Your right, I'll do what I think is right in the end, but my heart has not told me that Obama is it, right now. I'm sincerely conflicted by his candidacy.

On LGBT, I did read that list, after finally finding it buried in the people part of his website. I commend him for it as well. I actually looked up his record on other sites. But, what I want is to hear him mention it on the campaign trail. Every time I see him talk about it (rarely), he seems uncomfortable and I don't believe he has denounced hate speech in strong enough terms. I have been touch by hate crimes in my life, I was on the jury of one of the young men that killed Mathew Shepard. It is part of the reason I feel strongly about this issue, including also the fact that I lost my brother-in-law to aids. If our POTUS can't comfortable talk about LBGT rights, from the bully pulpit (of which Obama is extraordinarily gifted), then I'm skeptical of his real feelings on the issue.

peace

Can I make a suggestion to you? There is another forum here called the Barack Obama Supporters Group. Agitators aren't allowed in there so the tone is more quiet than in this forum. If you tone down your OP a little (because everyone's a bit edgy from trolls right now) I'm sure people will answer all your questions respectfully and sincerely.

You're in the middle of a war zone up here.

If you want to discuss the LGBT thing, start a thread called something like "Obama supporters only please: Help with O's LGBT platform". We'll watch out and make sure you get real answers.

My younger sister is LG and the one who initially turned me on to Obama. There's more homophobia in the older Black community and he fought against that going as far as speaking out against it to the Black community.


Sen. Obama on Homophobia and Stigma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFG1vVYwTxA

Obama Confronts Black Community on Bias Against Gays, Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClfHQB8VRUA

Barack Obama on Gay Marriage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1MZ8

I won't speak for Obama but most children of biracial, biethnic cultures tend to see people as just people and don't feel comfortable separating people into us/them groups. I think that's why he tries not to make a big issue about any demographics. I wish I could invite you to the Castro in San Francisco for a week. The streets are lined with Obama signs. I've never seen anything like it.

Thanks for being on that jury. I can't even bear to think about what Matthew went through. Matthew and Brandon Teena were the thoughts I had when some agitator started a thread how Obama couldn't win because he wanted to expand the Hate Crimes Act. I still tear up when I think of either of them and I know I don't know all the sad details you do :(

Unlike Clinton, Obama wants to fully repeal DOMA. I think his understanding of constitutional law and civil rights is going to play very well into advancing LGBT rights in the US.

If you contact some of the people here http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome you'll probably get much better information than I can give you.

For the AIDS thing. I think he has the best platform for it. Even down to supporting a needle exchange program.

Welcome to DU susanwy. PM me if you have any problems because we're a little edgy right now.

Peace for you and your kids too

moved me to tears.

There are much better ones but I didn't save them. I'm glad they did some good.

He's the ONLY candidate to mention the number of rights denied to gay and lesbian couples who wish to marry.

Hillary talks about gay issues when talking to gay people, but Obama has included gays frequently in his speeches.

The biggest mistake that has been made from the gate is not bringing the international community into this. Between Iraq and Vietnam, we should have learned we can't dictate to any country or the world. I can't believe you support that kind of continued arrogance and ignorance. He gets it, you don't.

I respect the institution greatly, and diplomacy is certainly needed, that is an understatement. That is why I support the Biden/Gelb plan.

But, with all due respect, this is an area where I feel Obama doesn't get it. The countries surrounding Iraq must be involved in the process of cleaning up this mess and they are HIGHLY skeptical of the UN. After all, we don't even see fit to include them as one of the big 5, (tell me what business France has in that group anymore). They are skeptical because of how the UN fell in line behind Colin Powell, they are skeptical because the UN as never truly taken a strong stand on the Palestinian issue. These are just a few reasons why the UN would be ineffective in this issue.

peace

I don't know, you just keep saying these things that tend to give you away. In any event, he didn't say he was only going to rely on the UN, which causes me to question your agenda even more.

"Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraq’s neighbors — including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to secure Iraq’s borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; support reconciliation among Iraq’s sectarian groups; and provide financial support for Iraq’s reconstruction."

K&R for being the funnies most ridiculous post I have seen here in DU. I mean, are you for real?

if she's not busy these days, maybe.....

And accusing Obama of "pandering" is really rich coming from a Clinton supporter.

vote McCain.


Oh... wait.... McCain is even LESS of the things that you want.


Looks like a conundrum for ya. Will you vote for the Republican, who you agree with on NOTHING, out of spite?


Or will you vote for the Democrat...the one you agree with a good percentage of the time?


Or will you not vote?



It's up to you. One of the best things about Obama is that he doesn't pander. He tells you what he would do and what he believes and you can choose to accept it or not.



If you don't accept it... fine. Do what you want.

And you want him to "stop saying" certain things? Is that really realistic that you would get him "stop saying" things? How does that even effect your life. It doesn't. It might irritate you, but it doesn't effect your life.

If Iraq is your #1 issue, and you're not going to vote democratic, then you're supporting continuing the war. By not voting for our nominee, you're voting for more war. Period.

So if that's your #1 issue and you don't vote democratic I have to question how serious you are about bringing our troops home.

I think Susan is sincere.

And she's said, approximately 76 times, that she's not voting for McCain. Can we let it go now?

But Susan, Malik is right--you have to vote for whoever is best for ending the war. Not sit on the sidelines and fret about it. Do something about it. Ignore these asses who for some reason think it's okay to reinforce that your vote doesn't matter.

Figure out which candidate will work hardest to end the war and then vote for them. Support them. Phone bank for them. Tell your friends to do the same.

Posts like yours are what make people throw up their hands.

One candidate is running that wants to end the war. One candidate is running that doesn't.

You say the war is your number one priority.

You're thinking of staying home unless the one that wants to end the war gives you more sick days under ADA.

WTH?

So when McCain is President (DESPITE your simply sitting on the sidelines--not YOUR fault) how many days is he gonna give you?

Go vote, Susan. If for nothing more than your peace of mind.

It matters to me how we end this war. My opinion is based in reality. I don't think Obama's plan will end the larger conflict, in fact I think it will make it worse. This is not a black and white issue (nothing meant by that BTW). It is very complicated. I always think of the song, "should I stay or should I go now". But, I unequivocally state that McLame would be much worse. If I were in a purple state, this would be easier for me, I'm not, so I want the candidate to get into specifics. That was really the point of this post. I don't want this election decided by the MSM race-baiting, class warfare BULLSHIT, but I think it will be.

For example, I have Obama say we won't have permanent military bases in Iraq. Please explain to me what he means by that? Is permanent a code word? We already have a permanent base there, it cost us Billions of dollars. It is called the green zone. Do you know that the idiots at the pentagon actually spent money designing a golf course around the green zone to buffer the military base (we need to know who surrounds us). Really, they did, its insane. My point is the base is there. Do we abandon it, do we stay to provide a stabilizing force (like that would work). Its not that easy to say we will just pull out.

That is just one, not thoroughly explored, issue surrounding the pull out. I want more detail from Obama, period. To me it isn't just about our troups, our money, our standing in the world, it is also about the Iraqi people. I don't want a slaughter in the Middle East. Does that make me a McLame, pro-war supporter? No, and I resent the insulation that I am. I was a BIden supporter because he addressed the nuances of the war and didn't pander to me by making the issue just about getting out.

I won't not vote because of the ADA, again, just an issue that is important to me.

NO politican can give you EVERYTHING you want. Nor should they. We've had enough pandering to special interests now as it is. If you want to set up reasons NOT to vote for Obama, you have done that which I suspect was the point of this little creative writing exercise of yours to begin with.

It's not like it will make any difference anyway. :shrug:

You are demanding something from a "candidate"? So are you demanding that he make promises about all these things or do you expect him to solve all these problems before he gets elected? If you are expecting promises, then what do you say to the Hillary supporters who claim he's all "promises and no action"? There is no coming around with an attitude like this. And if you won't vote for Obama should he get the nod, then it's as good as voting for McCain...

If you're a Democrat, you should be voting for him, no matter what.

Get out and talk to people so your state DOESN'T go red. Or would you rather sit in a corner, pout and say "I'm not gonna vote
coz I didn't get my way"?

Thank you for four more years of economic destruction and the loss of every civil liberty our forefathers left for us.

There is no WAY it will go for Obama.

n/t

And I also know that people said the same thing about Colorado four years ago. Take a look at the math map now.

"Twelve things Obama must do" by stating immediately what "He, his supporters, and the media" must do. Obama does not control his supporters, and he surely can't control the media. If you can't be reasonable, no one will give the slightest damn what your demands are.

Secondly, it is Hillary Clinton who seems to think that you are racist and uneducated - hell, that's her base! She said that, not any Obama supporter.

As to your other demands, what do they matter if you already believe that Hillary Clinton will actually do anything she's promising to do? If you're willing to vote for McCain - hell, if you're willing to even threaten to vote for McCain, none of what is on your list is even close to being truly important to you.

I drink your milkshake.

It does not prohibit either candidates nor the press from talking about religion.

It's kinda silly to demand both candidates supporters and the M$M do something in order for a candidate to win your vote.

It's spelled Wright.

But I appreciate your passion for some progressive causes and your desire for honesty. I will pray for you.

:shrug:

:wtf:

i'll vote for the nominee, period. i have my own list of stuff, but i don't expect the party to do every one of them for my vote, that's what primaries are for.

And no, I didn't read your whole post. I got stuck on how Obama has to stop his supporters and the media from feeding your perception that they think you are a racist bumpkin.

Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

Since you find it easy to make conditions for others. Apparently even finding it necessary to monitor the behavior of fellow DUers you've never met - amazing!

Would you consider that diversity exists even with Obamaland?

I don't believe that every Hillary supporter is a poorly educated racist!

Please don't assume that I do because I find Barack Obama the better candidate.

And, frankly I'm offended by McLame instead of McCain. It's disrespectful.

No, I won't vote for him - he's a Republican, I'm a Democrat.

But he's not a buffoon. It's dangerous to paint him as one.

Lest I be guilty of telling YOU what to do, please just consider - tone matters.

Can we please consider individuals individually?

:thumbsup:

Nuclear power is one of them.

And being called a racist just because I am not an Obama supporter is another.
Infact, it is laughable.

And being called 'uneducated' is yet another.

A trip to Europe...I have always wanted to travel extensively to Europe...I refuse to vote for Obama until he personally promises this wish.




Oh by the way....what did Clinton promise you for your vote?
maybe I can get a better deal? :::wink wink:::





:eyes:

if they want my vote, that is.

Oh, did that sound racist?

You know one will not do....You can't eat just one!

candidate needs to be sure to check in on me every few moments, between now and the election. He should respond to my every need, even before I am fully aware of them. (After I am aware of them, too.) Otherwise, "sorry, pal, but you do not exhibit the political maturity needed to earn my vote." Fear not: I will still vote for every other democrat, because from dog catcher to school board member to governor to senator, each one is fully dedicated to meeting my delicate needs.

http://barackobamaisyournewbicycle.com/

Everytime I refreshed this page, I saw all the things he did for you. I'm jealous.

And nowhere on there did he say anything about that 40 acres and a mule I've been waiting for! Oh wait, maybe that's the pony?

:hi:

:mad:

Send him your list, me, I'm not much interested.

But I wish you more luck than I got when I sent an e-mail to the Clinton Campaign.

They obviously are understaffed and overwhelmed.

I got an e-mail thanking me for my support.

AS if.

Seriously, unless you run yourself, you have got to accept that a candidate will not share every position you hold. Keep in mind the future look of the SCOTUS and federal bench, as well as our country's general direction. I'll gladly vote for anything offered up by the Democratic party come November.

Had you joined earlier, the type of pressure you are applying would surely have gotten to one of the candidates, and you could have had someone to vote for. :shrug:

Personally I want a "rainbow in a jar"...... Come on, Barack, you can do this....just for me.

Making a Rainbow
An individual raindrop has a different shape and consistency than a glass prism, but it affects light in a similar way. When white sunlight hits a collection of raindrops at a fairly low angle, you can see the component colors red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet -- a rainbow. For simplicity's sake, we'll only look at red and violet, the colors of light on the ends of the visible light spectrum.
(snip)
http://science.howstuffworks.com/rainbow2.htm

or i`m going to hold my breath till he does

the first two demands are aimed at the media and Obama supporters? and when one of the demands is merely a statement as opposed to a demand, and when another demand has already been "met"?

It's clear that you are familiar with many issues, but I don't understand why the burden should be on this community to do research for you. You seem like the kind of person who takes their vote seriously, and would be able to find answers to some of your demands on your own.

If you want substantial responses from this community I humbly suggest you address only a few issues at a time, and that you use the same respectful tone with us that you are demanding of others.

*Here is some background on his Iraq Const. Convention position, from BO.com:
"A United Nations-Led Constitutional Convention: Iraq's constitution, approved in an October 2005
referendum, is the product of a Kurdish–Shiite deal. Iraq's government was supposed to immediately revise the constitution to be more inclusive of Sunnis and to develop a more sustainable balance between Baghdad's centralized authority and provincial governments. They never did. Barack Obama would have the United Nations convene a constitutional convention in Iraq that would include representatives from all levels of Iraqi society. The convention would not adjourn until national reconciliation is reached and contentious questions such as federalism, oil revenue sharing, and de-Ba'athification are resolved."

*On NASA, Obama said this a couple weeks ago: "I’ll support vigorous reinvestment in our federal research and development agencies, including NASA, to maintain America’s leadership in Science and Technology and to foster economic competitiveness. And I’ll stand up to the special interests and unite this country so we can bring about real change in the lives of American families -- from passing universal health care, to putting money back in the pockets of middle-class families and making sure every one of our children has the world-class education they deserve."

Obama has also said that he wants to make sure NASA plays an important role as we deal with global warming, which is an area that I think many of us agree should get a considerable chunk of our country's research efforts.

*If I can offer you a reason to vote for Obama: His campaign just started, today, a 50 state voter registration drive. When has a presidential campaign done that? If you're interested in more representation, I'd encourage you to vote for the candidate who has shown intense commitment to getting people involved in elections.

it also really needs informed people like you to help reach out to potential voters through phone calls, canvassing, and weekly registration drives. There's probably one in your area:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/vfchome

but reasoned responses, which you thankfully provided.

1,2 I stand by them, but they are rhetorical in a way because the cat is out of the bag. I reiterate that Obama might be able to put a stop to this, especially as the nominee. The media will hammer this stuff home, and I want he and his supporters to take a strong stance against it, it is divisive, period. Also, I've seen much longer posts on this forum. I don't think it was unreasonable.

I do research, that is why I'm not convinced, especially on the war. 1,2 will probably not change, 3-10 are not my top priorities, but are important to me. 11 and 12 are my major priorities. I wanted to see if people would try and convince me or disparage me. I think I have my answer, it isn't the way to sway a voter. I see nowhere in my post or responses where I have been disrespectful (well maybe the "semi intelligent" remark, but I'm only human).

I would, and did, argue that for various reasons the UN is not going to be a viable broker for peace. I agree the Sunnis were left out of the deal. Again, I know what plan I like, I linked to it, in fact this is the primary reason I don't support Obama yet. I fundamentally disagree with his plan and in part with his assessment of the situation. The constitution, as written, is a federalist constitution, it does not need to be re-written, at the cost of more lives, it needs to be implemented.

Your NASA quote has no substance. He has stated he will cut funding of the Aries rocket to fund education. I want him to recant that and to recognize the contribution of NASA. However, your point is well taken on NASA and global warming, perhaps a more pressing issue that the moon, for example.

I am impressed by the new voters, but I also think the primary process, Hillary's strong candidacy (again, I'm not a supporter), and the total mess this country is in also has played a role in this. It is not an Obama phenomenon, it is a re-awakening of democracy. Of that, we can all be proud.

Tx

Susan

I'm not sure if you're for real or not (we've had a lot of trolls here lately) but, assuming you're on the level:

1) Obama has never implied racism. Some of his supporters have done so and the MSM has gone both ways.

2) Again, Obama hasn't. Some of his supporters have done so.

3) Good news on this one, he actually includes LGBT protections. It's on the website, under "People". Brief summary includes: Civil unions, hate crimes, anti-discrimination, repealing DADT and opposing an anti-same sex marriage ammendment. Granted, it's not as progressive as either of us would like but it's better than the other candidates. As for the McClurkin thing; sorry, no clue. I still don't know what the hell he was thinking there.

4) I know nothing about this one so I'll pass.

5) You and I disagree here so I'm going to take a pass on this one too.

6) Is there genuinely enough money to do both, especially with W's destruction of the economy?

7) Skipping this until I've read the article you link to.

8) Again, you and I disagree here. I think the death penalty needs to be retained (albeit, with a LOT of qualifications).

9) I'm not sure what you're asking on this one. Obama is a man of faith, as am I (Satanist, as it happens but still faith) and his attitudes and my attitudes are, to some extent, going to be coloured by our respective faiths. However, I haven't see anything from Obama indicating that he would further the erosion of the church/state divide.

10)All politicians pander, it's the nature of the game sadly. I think Obama has been neither better nor worse than most.

11) Again, skipping until I've read the article.

12) The UN is your friend. More to the point, the UN is the only voice teh Iraqi people are likely to listen to at this point.

He, his supporters, and the media must stop... How is it Obama's fault that the media and his supporters are implying anything?

I hope you vote for the democratic nominee, other than that I have no other response.

Be better on the issues than John McCain.

McCain's administration will also overturn Roe vs Wade....so much for women rights. If you can stomach surpressing the rights of others (which i cant) then you are not doing service to the democratic party nor women of the country and so go ahead and vote with your heart and not with your head.

Or is she just perfect in every way? :eyes:

to my first major DU post!

Some were great, some funny, some insulting, some just plain stupid! I would expect nothing less here at DU, to which I've lurked for a long time, but finally decided to get off my ass and donate and post.

I'm off to a going away party for my friend who is leaving for Afghanistan in 6 weeks. A good place to be for perspective today.

Sharpen you pencils, I'll check back (if I'm sober).

Susan :toast:

now. Fun party, too bad the reason sucked.

Interesting discussions with my military friends, many of whom are conflicted on whom to vote for as well.

But, I'm too tired and too drunk to argue with anyone more tonight! And, very sad...watching my friend with his 9 year old son, 12 year old daughter and beautiful wife, not to mention all the friends and family there, I could only close my eyes and hope the next time I see us all together, we are celebrating his home coming and not his funeral.

What a fucked up world GWB has created.

gnight!

:cry:

Posts like this are just counterproductive :eyes:

and that's for the overwhelming bulk of the population of the world to practice tonglen to develop bodhicitta. Everything else is just a palliative. Senator Obama probably doesn't know what tonglen is, and if he did he would have a tough time getting elected on that platform. But, ya know, I'm going to vote for him anyway. I'm going to vote for him knowing that the fact that we can carry Teton County for him won't make it real likely that the rest of The Big Square State In The Middle will go that way. That's the best I can do.

If I'm in pain there's nothing like a good, strong, effective palliative.

thanks, there is a karma thing to think about here.

I'm in the opposite corner of the state, but I sure love it up there. We drive through every time we go to Idaho to visit the in-laws. Too bad gas will be so expensive this summer, it means no visit to the Tetons!

I'd probably know you already, and the only other friendly habitat is over in your corner of the state. I know what you mean abou gas; I miss the ocean (lived close for years) and each spring I've made a pilgramage back to the Oregon Coast for a few weeks. Not his year, though. Darn, I guess I'll just have to stay home up here in the Tetons, next door to Yellowstone :-).

Why won't he comply? Is this too much to ask?!?!?!?

Enjoy your stay.

You think if Obama could control the media, he might have prevented the chants of "REZKO WRIGHT AYERS HAMAS FARRAKHAN" from being repeated over and over?

:eyes:

I stopped reading after that, because I do not like ultimatums that start by false claims.

The only person calling you a racist is Hillary Clinton, who has based her last weeks of campaigning on the notion a white person will not vote for a black man. Same thing for uneducated. Obama never called you that. May be some idiot among Obama's supporters did, but, among the two candidates and their spouses, it is your wife and Bill who did, not Obama and his wife.

1) Stop dividing voting Americans by racial lines.

2) Remember that you she was the first to cry and ask for votes because it's "personal" but then go on to trash her opponents 36 hours later.

3) Stop having paid staff call fellow lifelong public service Dems like Richardson " Judas "

4) Keep her gender out of this race, remind voters of America that voting for her because she is a woman is a stupid reason to vote for her, and that they should consider other candidates before considering her.

5) Stop looking like she's 40 when she's sixty! Isn't she proud of her age?

6) Fire all her advisers and hire adviser people that are glad to work for $7 an hour, the prevailing wage at Walmart.

7) Pay her debts.

8) Show us exactly WHAT she did and did NOT do while in the White House as First Lady.......public information. If she fired the travel office staff, or whatever, tell us what she DID and did NOT do...same for NAFTA, same for universal Health INSURANCE....if she did this on her own, or did Bill have a roll.

9) Stop kissing up to white voters who vote for Republicans, start kissing up to white voters who are smart enough to ignore race and gender, and look for the real skills of leadership.

10) Stop endorsing McCain.

11) Stop having her staff post on several message boards to give the impression that "real" Americans post junk about not understanding racism.

12) Stop making herself look like Bill, the man who cheated on her many times over, unless SHE cheated on Bill, or intends to hit on male interns in the White House.

I think it's important right now to try and repudiate the whole Bush Doctrine (the entire neocon message of tax cuts for the rich, secret law for the unitary executive, deregulation and privatization of everything, preemptive war, suspension of habeas corpus, the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, and all the rampant "in your face" criminal cronyism) and I believe that anyone who doesn't make a serious effort to defeat John McCain is guilty of supporting the Bush Doctrine. But that's just the way I look at it.

How else can we change our trajectory and denounce Bush? Is there some other plausible solution, besides voting for Obama?

We would also like to win. Banning the death penalty does not get a candidate elected.

If the minimum of you want an unjust war to end and you want women to be able to choose, is not enough and you have this list of demands specific to you, I cannot help you. It's not about one person.

little person. I don't give a damn who you vote for.

Looks like an impossible set of demands to me. Why don't you just say you're not going to vote for him under any circumstances and be done with it?

"hard working, blue collar, uneducated white voters"? Don't get mad at others because Hillary claims those are the voters that "Matter".

You see even if he did meet these 12 you and others would come up with 12 more for why he isn't good enough to get your vote.

No candidate is perfect and it seems that you imply that Hillary has a perfect platform on all of these items you note.

We all have work to do...you should start with your own state wherever that is and start working on local laws, when there is a movement among the states it usually gets reflected in the government eventually.

I have, that is why I don't support Hillary either. I implied no such thing about Hillary and her platform. Again, I am not a Hillary supporter.

Nope, I went trough his web site, read all the PDF's (for about the third time during the primary season) and decided what I agreed with and what I didn't. I prioritized them, and posted my list. I didn't expect them to be seen as demands, I just wanted his supporters to convince me, or not, on why I should accept his positions.

On LGBT rights, I am more at ease after some of the thoughtful responses.

So you aren't voting for a panderer, ey? I guess this also rules out Clinton and McCain. The education bashing thing certainly rules out Clinton as well - I could go on, but you get the idea. But seriously, do you only cast your vote for someone if 100% of your issues are completely aligned with your candidate of choice, or is Obama being singled out for some reason?

Any chance you could share your current "must do prior to getting my vote" lists for your senator and representative?

You wrote a long post of demands and if that's the kind of democrat you are, so be it.

you want, keep looking. No one is going to match your feelings and desires on all issues. No one. As a matter of fact, I bet you can't find anyone, political or not, who matches 100%.

I respectfully you suggest doing a little more research before you post such things. Most of the name-calling has been the M$M and a little bit done by the Clintons themselves - Obama has not called anyone racist or anything else you accuse him of.

As for his stance on certain issues, either look into it a little more to find your answers or work to see the changes you want. It's government "for the people, by the people" - and you are the people.

Lastly, I don't believe you or anyone else on this board who claims to have chosen who to vote for based upon what a candidate's supporters did or said. No one here is that stupid.

1 & 7

1)

When did Obama supporters imply you are a racist, are you Hillary Clinton?
or posing to be one, did you make a racist comment or just plain guilty.

7)

So he should refused money from ordinary citizens just because they work for
lobbying firm, what a stupid argument... failed on this count, try again.

These are employees who like what Obama has to say, they are not the CEO of
firms, and the donations are not from XYZ company as you so eloquently express.

The level of ignorance that some people display beats me some times.

On Edit: you sound like a Republican doing a hit job, because if you where
a Democrat, you should have known the first two of your concern are from
Hillary Clinton.

At least she really really HOPES you're racist. And uneducated. That's her base, she's removed all doubt of that.

If you don't want to be lumped in with the uneducated racists, I suggest you take that up with Hillary. She's made it pretty clear that the enlightened, educated, volvo-driving, latte-sipping liberals who normally support the Democratic party can go fuck themselves.

I'm not a Hillary supporter.

And many Obama supporters think that if we don't support him, we can go fuck ourselves. That is not the way to win an election.


peace

Its the fallback position for those with small minds. They want to think you are a partisan Hillary supporter because that doesn't challenge their world view that people can't honestly have real problems with some of Obama's policy positions.

or else what? Vote Republican? Not vote at all? I sure hope you don't live in a blue or swing state.

:kick:

Retrieve the belt of Hippolyte?

Capture the Erymanthian boar?

Kill the Lernean Hydra?

Why this thread is here pandering to this dolt is beyond me.

though i don't see 1, 2 or 3 happening.

You will probably not vote for Obama since that is a very high-maintenance, egocentric list. Do you really expect us to believe that even if we did collectively conjure 12, 24, or 1,200 reasons, all sound, well-reasoned, and irrefutable in their logic, that you for one second would budge?

You have your mind made up. You are showboating and grandstanding. I don't know which is worse - the ignorant voters ("Obama's a gun-stealing Muslim!") or the narcissistic ones, with petulant demands and impossible-to-please objectives.

I have been very critical and skeptical of Obama since Day One. But I must be a softy and a pushover, because no one has to convince me why I should vote for him, and I need only summon one valid reason: The spectre of "President McCain".

and I posted this because I don't have my mind made up. If I lived in a state where it would make a difference it would be easier to overlook these things that are important to me, and vote Obama.

Because I don't believe my vote will make a difference, I can afford to push Obama and his supporters on these issues. I don't want McLame, he scares the crap out of me. However, all I've ever wanted in this silly season is to have an honest, DETAILED, discussion of the issues. Instead I get race driven, obsessive, lemming driven, MSM ratings driven bullshit.

Thankfully, a few, and surprisingly few, here have tried to engage me on these issues. For that, I say thank you. To the rest I say good luck in November with the whole unity thing.

Susan :)

On Gay rights....I have no opinion.

Nuclear Power: The whole industrialized world is going to it.
It is the only man made power without air pollution. And it
keeps OPEC at bay. There are millions of acres of inhabitable
land in the west. It sure beats high gasoline prices, dependence
on Middle-East, release of carbon dioxide, lung disease causing
air pollution, workers killed in coal mining & refinery accidents etc
due to burning fossil fuels.

NASA has used up Billions of tax dollars. The benefits are less than
2% of that. If the benefits are so desirable, private outfits
will break down doors to spend the money on research.

Death penalty is a proven deterrent. But it should be applied only
in cases of pre-meditated murders.

Or do you want to make my back yard un-inhabitable with your spent fuel rods? I think we could do better is all. We are a smart bunch of people, if we lead, the world will follow (or at least before GWB).

I think you'd be surprised at the benefits NASA, and all the ensuing research, as brought us. http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html
I think its worth every penny. But, it isn't just about the tangible benefits, its about the vision. Lets face it, this little blue ball isn't going to sustain us forever. Space really is the final frontier and possible our only hope.

On the death penalty, I disagree that it is a "proven deterrent". Trust me, I have time when I think that it is just punishment for certain crimes. Again, my objection lies in the fact that in the end, our government has a legal mechanism to kill me, and the means to make it look like I deserve it. That makes me nervous.

Nuclear waste can be cast in concrete and buried in remote mountains
of the west. The benefits far outweigh the risks. We kill 100,000 times
more workers in coal mining & refinery accidents than in nuclear plants
world wide.

If YOU commit a planned murder, I do not want my tax dollars to support
your life in prison. Like the bible says, eye for an eye.

Obama is not perfect and will never be able to fit into the little box you have created in your head. No politician would be able to. I think you are making up issues to justify not voting for Obama. NASA? Seriously?

I guess you won't be voting this November.

Waffles.

:)

here you go

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/2008/01/obama-delay-moo.html

In fact, at the party I went to this evening I had an interesting discussion with a NASA engineer, no kidding, a real rocket scientist, one who is actually working on the Aries rocket designed to take us back to the moon. He really likes Obama, but is really disturbed by his lack of fore site concerning NASA's budget. I wish I could eloquently repeat his concerns, but its late and I'm tired. Suffice to say it is about vision, the future of our world and solutions to our problems, including trying to find a way to show the world that we ARE one world, on a tiny blue ball, one that we are f**king up daily, and in his opinion, beyond a point of no return. In addition, like it or not, there are strategic concerns as well. China is going to get to the moon and we do not know their intentions. At least, not counting the current administration, NASA's intent is to, like the space station, make the moon an international scientific success, not bound by the strifes we face on earth.

However, he's a forward thinking guy, and I think we can change his mind if this is really a priority for his budget-cutting.

If you ask me, good places to start if we need to cut federal dollars are the military-industrial complex, and the $40 billion/yr drug war, the majority of which goes to fighting pot smoking.

This was the first I've heard of this, but you're right- if anything, NASA needs more money, not less. The pittance they do get should not be targeted to make a simplistic point.

Of course, if the GOP stays in the White House, you'll have four more years of National "science" policy dictated by flat-Earth Jesus freaks who think the world is 6,000 years old.

But, Obama, in this policy is echoing many people who feel the space program is a complete waste of money. I want a president who is a leader in this issue. I agree 100% with you on the drug war and the military-industrial complex. But, I don't see Obama talking much about taking money from those programs.

I actually think your incorrect on the last part. McLame, as much as I can't stand him, is for things like stem cell research and a strong supporter of NASA (although I question his motives, i.e. military industrial complex). I'm not so sure he would be as dismissive of sound science as Bush. However, I would never vote for him on this, or any other basis.

I didn't write this post to imply that he must do all 12 items, although on re-read I did use the word must. But, I want honest discussion of the issues, and see is his supporters are aware of this policy.

Alas, I don't see that happening any time soon.

McCain will be beholden to the religious right nutjobs who run the GOP; whether he's arguably "better than Bush" on Science, the pressure from Day One will be to continue to put, for instance, people who believe the Grand Canyon was created during "Noah's Flood" in charge of our National Parks. For certain he will be hard pressed to nominate more knuckle-draggers to the Supreme Court, so the GOP can continue to work to overturn Roe v. Wade, for instance.

I think any residual commitment McCain may have to stem cell research will be gone by the time he would be inaugurated. The core of the GOP is too committed to an agenda that includes not just outlawing abortion, but also outlawing many forms of contraception- granting rights to single cells is a core facet of that agenda, as per the HLA plank which has been part of the plaform for decades and no doubt will remain this election cycle.

I think the most refreshing thing about Obama is his willingness to entertain new ideas and approaches to problems; Given his capacity for vision, as the first true 21st Century President, I can't imagine vigorous support for space exploration won't be part of that.

...very important. I agree. However, I do not think it is something that should be a make or break factor on whether or not you will vote for the Democrat this fall. What I am trying to say is that no candidate will ever be 100% perfect. We have to understand that.

on #12, you are right it is the issue of the campaign. Since John McCain has already said he's going to be there no matter how long it takes until we secure an honorable "win" then I highly recommend you vote for the Democrat who is against the war and will make an effort to remove us from the fiasco. Go ahead and not vote for him, not voting for him is the exact equivalent of voting FOR McCain whether you want to admit that or not. Hello Draft, good-bye everyone's sons. Maybe they should thank all the selfish people in the Democratic party who are threatening to NOT vote at all or voting for McCain, in advance. So your promise means absolutely nothing except that you're a pretty selfish individual because you don't get the perfect candidate. None of us get the perfect candidate. It's called real life.

I'm not naive enough to think Obama can meet all my concerns, but I have a right as a citizen to express my desires. It does not make me selfish, it means I'm am participating in the democratic process. If push came to shove and I lived in a state that was a swing state, I'd vote Obama. I'm not, so I want to push his supporters to start talking about the issues. Not just the lame BS the media keeps pushing.

Please, don't call me selfish or lecture me about "real life". I've been pretty civil so far, but with all due respect fuck you. I came home tonight from saying good bye to a good friend on his way to Afghanistan. We all, all of us, made plans on how we can support him and his family while he is gone. And we debated the war, the election and NASA and other stuff and didn't insult one another, despite the diverse opinions. We drank beer and wine and ate cake and talked about another friend and her need to go back on chemo and how we could hold another fund raiser because she has maxed out her insurance, because we are Americans and we get to do that, in the comfort of our homes with our loved one's around us. Not one person called me selfish for wanting Obama to address my concerns.

pretty nervy. What if we all had your attitude?? I'll just sit it out too since it doesn't matter and I can't have this perfect checklist candidate. He has been talking about the issues, but you like many other people have, ignore them. You're a smart woman, read and find out, and after the media has proved its worth, don't sit back and expect them to tell you what to think.

You're not the only one with friends in this lame ass fucking war, so fuck you back for threatening to ignore all the death and destruction going on because you don't like his position on NASA and other things, none of which trump people DYING. I don't call you selfish for wanting him to address your concerns, I call you unrealistic for that. For threatening to sit out, and to not at least TRY to have an effect on whether or not YOUR sons or my son winds up in an unjust war for oil, well that's pretty fucking selfish. :)

He hasn't been talking about the issues, not with any substance anyway. Its all hope and change and yes we can. I haven't ignored any of it. I've visited his site an Hillary's many times. I've read opinions, election analysis, and even spent a day looking closely at his Illinois senate record and his votes in the US senate. I have C-Span on so much in my house, my kids just roll their eyes when I turn on the TV. I stopped watching the MSM after Biden dropped out.

I never said I was the only one with friends in the "lame ass fucking ware". BTW, which war are you referring to? Iraq is lame ass, Afghanistan is not, if you don't recall it was the mass murder who hides out in the mountains of Afghanistan who attacked us in the first place. I'm not ignoring death and destruction, it is precisely why I support the Biden/Gelb plan. I think Obama's plan could potentially bring more death and destruction. And no, NASA is not the sole reason I wouldn't vote for Obama, its just important to me and I got at least on response of an Obama supporter who was't aware of his positon on NASA (and one idiot who accused me of making it up). But supporters like you just might be. I've never sat out an election in my life, that is why I posted this, I want to hear supported facts on why I should support Obama not just be ridiculed for being conflicted at this point.

I agree that Afghanistan is where we should've been all along, and he's stated that all along. His plan is giving his best intentions so far, and we all know that things will change once he is in office and receiving the advice and recommendations of generals and other military officials who actually understand the strategics of the war in Iraq. That is the one thing that sets him apart from other candidates, he doesn't turn a deaf ear to the opinion of others even if they disagree with his opinion. It is much more important to be able to be flexible and alter your thoughts and assumptions rather than thinking and believing you're right all the time as the other candidates have shown they are prone to do. You never said you're the only one with friends in the lame ass fucking war, but your nasty "fuck you" to me implied that your opinion is more worthy because you have an emotional stake in it, as if you assumed I didn't.

Many things are important to me as well, I would LOVE for him to say as Hillary has, that he is going to throw away NCLB, instead of "fix it" but you know what, I'm going to have to learn to live with that, because there's never going to be a perfect candidate. I have plenty of other things that I disagree with him about, but I trust that on the important things, he will at least listen to others opinions like I said above, and those opinions will probably include those of Sen. Biden whom he holds in high regard.


“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.” Desmond Tutu


"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." Paulo Freire


You may take this as an insult or not, but I honestly do not understand how anyone can be conflicted at this point. End the war in Iraq, or Endless war in Iraq. I'm sorry if that upsets you or makes you angry, but there is just no justifying not voting for the Democratic nominee no matter how you try to validate it or defend it. There is no such animal as being "neutral". Not voting = a vote for McCain = a vote for endless war for oil. In the end, it is your vote, do with it as you wish.

I was touchy last night and your first response, not so polite, touched a nerve. My apologies for the use of language, I rarely do that.

I hope he includes Biden's "opinion" but he could go further and embrace his plan, although time is running out and it may just be too late.

We can agree to disagree on this point, but I honestly don't think Obama's plan, and I have read the whole thing, is viable. There is a moral issue to just pulling out and leaving the squaller that we created, not to mention the long term implications for the Middle East. But, that doesn't mean I want us there for 100 years, I don't, not 50 years either. But, the reality is we will be there for some time to come and and UN brokered peace is not, IMHO, going to work. Ask anyone who has been there, we have already built permanent bases there and the military has no plans to advocate abandoning them at this point. Right or wrong, that is the reality. So, I am truly conflicted on this issue and it makes me sick just thinking about what Bush and co have done to the future for my son's. I have in many ways lost hope, and Obama just doesn't inspire it to return.

I appreciate your quotes. As I've said up thread, if I were in a swing state, I wouldn't be having this discussion. It is now about what my heart and my gut tells me to do, not about my vote making a difference. I'm sure I'll get slammed for that here, but so be it.



:dilemma:

his plan isn't perfect. I do sincerely believe that he will wholeheartedly take Sen.Biden's wisdom on this issue into the administration with him, and bring him to the table as decisions are made. In fact, I would love Biden as VP or SoS. I believe the only way to fix Iraq is going to be with the help of the surrounding nations, and that is why it is important to talk to our enemies as well as our friends. It is that particular belief he holds that shows he does have a better grasp of the situation than any of the others. We're not going to fix Iraq with Iran constantly fanning the flames which they will continue to do as long as we threaten them with obliteration. That said, there will be no magic, it will be a series of diplomacy, carrots and sticks, and that's going to take a lot of intelligent people assessing the situation, and not just the ideology of one man.

And even though it may come off that way, I too apologize, it is in no way intended to be a personal "slam" but rather, an emotional, perhaps irrational plea because I do feel very desperate. There will be a draft if this continues much longer, and with the possibility of war in Iran looming on the horizon, I get more disgusted by the day. Even if we wanted to "just leave" that will take approximately 2 years from today, so by the time January rolls around, we'll have lost almost another year, and how many more will be dead. And we will be there for a very long time. My son is 11, but we've already been there for 6 years, will definitely be there for another 2 - 3, so it's not unthinkable to believe we will still be there, and possibly at war with Iran and God knows who else when he turns 18. They are NOT getting my son for oil. I too live in a state that is hardly a swing state, but I have to at least try. It's my son.

Our military is breaking down, they're not doing a damned thing for them in terms of mental health, their well being over there (soldiers being electrocuted because of shitty contractors and other easily rectified atrocities), and the reprehensible conditions in the barracks they come back to once they leave from there. My friend's husband is being deployed, yet AGAIN, she's leaving to go back to Tenn. to be with her family so she won't be alone here for the 12 months he has to be there. My friend and neighbor was recently divorced from her husband, after buying a separate trailer for him to live in failed to save their marriage, because he's so emotionally fucked up from this fiasco. That is only a part of my sense of urgency, and again I say I understand where you're coming from, and after all is said and done, it is your vote. The lovely thing about being American is we can vote on more than one issue, and normally I would look at things in a much more conflicted way as well. I would expect more, demand more, but at this point in time, I literally think that every vote cast, is a vote between life and death.

Anyway, sincerely, all the best for your friend's safe return, and God help us all. We're going to need it.

Obama is going to be the nominee and if you like it or not, and he isn't going to give into every demand of one needy potential voter.

What you said was that you've got 12 items that Obama needs to address, but you then said that he and his supporters need to do some things. That means you've made Barack Obama directly responsible for anything and everything his supporters do. If that's fair, then let's start applying that standard to Hillary.

Regardless of who's the Pres... fight for your issues through your legislators...

citizens of another country by now.

Beyond that, kudos on a post that made for very enjoyable reading.

:thumbsup:

PRESIDENT McCAIN.


'nuff said

Obama Peddles The Same "War On Terror" Lie As The Rest Of Them
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4598201

p.s. Welcome to DU! :hi:

He made a whole speech that it will take more than just his opinion to move forward on gay issues why he is not pledging anything. It will take grassroots local level. A mandate belongs to true universal care that Kucinich had. Nuclear energy is inevitable in a planet of scarce oil going green is not going to be an overnight thing.

Sen. Obama was on of the first to draft legislation on transparency in government and ethics. He also drafted legislation for oversight on war contractors. As far as NASA goes before going to the moon and stars we need to fix planet earth first.

decides to focus on, he should be annointed president without bothering with a general election. I'll only comment on #11, universal healthcare. Anyone who knows Obama knows he actually favors TRUE, universal, single payer healthcare, but he realizes that would be impossible to institute. John Edwards held that position as well. Hillary, on the other hand, wants universal insurance. That's not universal healthcare. There's a HUGE difference. She might get an insurance policy for everyone, but if you can only afford a pittance, you'll probably get an equal value in coverage. Our goal needs to be equal access and equal care for all Americans through single payer, universal healthcare, not an insurance scheme that rewards big insurance with 47 million more suckers. In my opinion, if we get a supermajority in Congress, Obama is the candidate more open to this. In the meantime, he calls his current plan universal because his intention - like Hillary - is to get everyone covered. What, exactly, would Hillary do to be sure her mandated coverage is purchased? Garnish wages? That would be a popular move - taking food out of the mouths of children. Fines? Can you imagine fining a poor family for not purchasing a policy that will fatten the multibillion dollar insurance industry? We need to start working on the end we want and quit parsing the words.

100 years of war should put a smile on your face.

if your vote doesn't matter, as you say, who gives a fuck if you vote or not. These kind of "lists" are narcissistic and ridiculous. :eyes:

Get over yourself.

that would best represent you. That and get over yourself - at least a little bit.

You beat them all hands down...

"Lastly the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. To me this is THE issue of this campaign. "


Yah, Obliterating Iran Hillary is your woman for that.. Second best for you is McCain, your are on the wrong site..

I thought this was the "democratic underground" not the "obama underground".

BTW, which candidate is it who advocates invading Pakistan? I'm not a Hillary supporter, in part, because of here rhetoric on Iran. And I said maybe 100 times I won't vote for McLame.

Thus, I'm a democrat left with no good choice. That's what really steams me, we had the chance to find a strong candidate and instead we went for the whole "history" factor.

To get Alqueda/Bin Laden and Co. Not to Obliterate the country's innocent population.

I do feel bad for you if you do not like any of the candidates.
So who was your "strong" candidate?

Give Obama a chance. You have a laundry list that would be hard to accommodate for most presidential candidates..


I also have 2 boys and would be scared of a McCain presidency concerning the ongoing Iraq war and the GOP will push him to also invade Iran.. With the military the way it is McCain will have to bring back the draft.. ;(

Agreed on the draft....

My 82 year old father is a veteran of WWII (south-pacific) and he has said he would give me all he had left in the world if there is a draft to get the boys out. He always tells the boys that no matter what anyone says, war is HELL and nothing the watch on TV, movies, read, game or otherwise even comes close the awful reality.

Susan

because that is the ONLY candidate who can meet your standards.

Just asking.

...NOT make Hillary his VP.



:evilgrin:

Some of them, however, are eminently doable.

Trouble is- he's basically a "centrist" go along to get along type Dem. And one suspects that if elected he- like Clinton in the 90's, will largely govern like one.