RE: Florida/Michigan

Why is it that every compromise I see regarding FL and MI involves the superdelegates in both states still counting for a full vote?

No matter how you slice and dice allocating the pledged delegates from both states, shouldnt the party leadership in both states (who are also superdelegates) be the ones penalized fully for breaking the rules? I think the super delegates from both states should be completely stripped of their votes.

Punish us, spank us, please... We were bad we deserve to be punished...

I'm so mad st Granholm, Stabenow, Levin and all the rest on this--I'm serious--get the whip out!!

so that the voters in these two states arent punished or disenfranchised but these supers deserve to be stripped of their votes for the primary.

They are the party leaders in those states, they willingly broke the rules, they should be punished.

:evilgrin:

THEIR rules. THEIR FUBAR. THEIR asses!

Period.

I also like their college football team's Floridagan's mascot
the Wolfergator.

OK. I got nothing!

Now that's the best explanation I've heard..LOL!

If it had happened in my state I wouldn't expect my vote to count, and I'd take it out on the appropriate people (ie the state representatives who made it happen in the first place).

All very easy to say from the outside. I'm so sick of people saying this when it's not their vote that's being threatened.

There is one party alone that bears the blame if my vote is not counted towards the nomination, and it has three letters. D. N. C.

The party had rules about what they could do. Your reps decided they'd do their own thing. The DNC *gasp* enforced the rules.

It's not my vote threatened but if my state plays by the rules why should yours get to say 'well we're above the rules'.

Fuck that. Your leaders broke the rules, and you're paying the price for it. You don't like a system you change it, you don't just say 'well we're going to do what we want anyway.'

This is the same stupid argument I get over and over and over again.

I say, "Count my vote."

They say, "No."

"Why?"

"Because Florida broke the rules."

"Who broke the rules?"

"Your state leaders."

"So I didn't break the rules then?"

"No, but your state leaders did."

"Then why am I getting punished?"

"Because Florida broke the rules."

"But you just said it was the state leaders who broke the rules."

"Yes I did."

"So why am I getting punished for something they did and I couldn't control?"

"Because they broke the rules."

"So why didn't the DNC punish them instead?"

"Because it has to make sure its rules are followed."

"But all the voters did was vote. Why are they the ones getting punished?"

"Because the DNC has to make sure its rules are enforced."

"Yes, I know that, but the ones to have the rules enforced against are the state leaders, not the voters. The voters did nothing wrong."

"They voted. They shouldn't have voted in a primary that wasn't going to count."

"So if the voters hadn't voted, then they wouldn't be punished."

"No."

"That doesn't make any sense. Either way under that scenario, the vote's not going to count."

"Exactly."

"So the voters are the ones who are getting punished?"

"Well they should be angry at their state leaders."

"But are the state leaders the ones who decided the votes shouldn't count?"

"No."

"Who decided the votes shouldn't count?"

"The DNC."

"So then shouldn't I be angry at the DNC?"

"No. You should be angry at your state leaders."

"Why should I be angry at my state leaders when it is the DNC who decided my vote shouldn't count?"

"Because they broke the rules."

"And if I were to be angry at my state leaders, then would my vote count?"

"No."

"Then why should I bother being angry at them if the DNC isn't going to count my vote anyways?"

"Because they broke the rules."

"So what should I do about it?"

"You can vote them out of office."

"Why?"

"Because they broke the rules."

"So if I vote them out of office, then will you count my vote?"

"Of course not. The primary election will be long over by then."

"So what's the point of that?"

"To punish them for breaking the rules."

"Yes, but why am I, as a voter, who simply had the audacity to go to the polls on the only day I could have possibly voted in the primary election, being punished by the DNC right now?"

"Because Florida broke the rules...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Representative Democracy is a form of government founded on the principles of popular sovereignty by the people's representatives. The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives—i.e., not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives.

In many representative democracies (Canada, the USA, UK, etc), representatives are most commonly chosen in elections by a plurality of those who are both eligible to cast votes and actually do so. A plurality means that a winning candidate has to win more votes than any other candidate in the race, but does not necessarily require a majority of the votes cast. While existing representative democracies hold such elections to choose representatives, in theory other methods, such as sortition (more closely aligned with direct democracy), could be used instead. Also, representatives sometimes hold the power to select other representatives, presidents, or other officers of government (indirect representation).

Your representatives acting on your behalf with power given to them by you made this change for you. If you felt that they were not acting on your behalf when they did this(last summer) you should have been told them.

Have you started the recall yet? :sarcasm:

Believe me, if it had happened to me I would be LIVID. Anyone in Michigan and Florida should feel tremendous anger at the situation.

"So why am I getting punished for something (my state leaders) did and I couldn't control?"

This is the nature of representative government. They are "your representatives". Why am I being punished for the things that Bush has done? Heck I didn't even vote for the guy? In this case YOU are directly getting punished for the choices your representaives made. You should therefore remove them from being your representatives. If your representatives chose to put a nuclear waste dumping facility in your backyard, you'd be saying the same thing. In most of these cases the recourse is to remove from office the assholes who are messing with you, and in a case like this you would have alot of people on your side.

In another example. If you gave your money to a fund manager and he took your money and stole it from you, putting it in his own account, would you be angry at the Federal Government for taking his license away or would you fire the guy?

Your control of the situation is that you voted to put them in office, and the citizens in the state didn't kick up enough of a stink about it prior to the vote. That's representational government for ya and it seems to be the key disconnect.

MI and FL some how make her the nominee. That's the ONLY reason she's fighting for this. Thing is, it's simply not going to happen.

At what point can it be settled without her? Barack has repeatedly said the delegates will be seated--so he wants a resolution.

I suppose she'll have to accept things eventually. But she'll only do it with a great big fake smile on her face. She'll cry on the inside I'm sure.

and a primary that she could swing with those tears.

The Repig own everything in Florida, they moved the date in order to piss off the Dems and become relevant in the RNC.

Still don't care, but the fact is, this was not really the doings of the dems.

A dem initially proposed the bill and ALL but 1 dem voted in favor of breaking the rules when the bill came to the floor.

off your tree again I see. Did you actually read what I posted? No.

And by the way, some people DID vote for him in Florida...so he doesnt deserve those delegates?

What about the folks who wrote him in on the MI ballot? Those dont count too?

I see, only HRCs votes count.

..because then using Hillogical math--adding those to uncommitted we could argue she lost...

You have the "Audacity" to question IF I read your post? LOL!!!

And a couple of press conferences.

BUT READ WHAT I WROTE!!!! READ IT! I am not talking about punishing the voters of FL and MI, I am talking about punishing the LAWMAKERS in those two states for getting them into this mess.

dont vote for him

petty
illogical
stupid

thanks hillary. :sarcasm:

As the superdelegates are not related to the popular vote.

But if the DNC dares to even consider not seating at least a portion of the elected delegates, they are writing their own obituary and Howard Dean needs to be thrown out of town on a rail.

The superdelegates in those 2 states should bear the punishment for breaking the rules yet every single proposal I have seen involves seating the supers at full vote.

It's garbage.

We never vote republican, and we find fault with everything the reps do. So we vote Democrat and think we're getting the best people to run the government. Then the Michigan primary comes up and, truthfully, I am so disappointed because my party let me down, they cared only about themselves, the DLC and advancing THEIR choice of a candidate.

If I can't trust my own party, is there any point to having an election when my elected officials did not allow me a ballot with choices. Will they pull another stunt that will not allow us to vote in the GE?

And to boot, these despicable people are Super Delegates. Of course they don't deserve to vote. I didn't get my opportunity because of them.