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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:24 AM
Original message
I hope Obama does better than expected on Tuesday
It will be good for our Party, and good for our nation if he does. But I hope DU does not undergo a frenzy of posts about poorly educated southern white racists if he doesn't. It is no more automatically racist for a southern white to vote for Clinton than it is automatically racist for a northern black to vote for Obama. There are reasons why individuals can have a preference between two Democrats other than race, and it is human nature for most people to identify and feel comfortable with people of the same group as their own. Otherwise there would not be so many Obama supporters talking up the possibility of Obama running with Bill Richardson, in part precisely because he is Hispanic. In some cases the reason for a vote for Clinton can be as simple as Clinton having a public persona that contains more fire, giving some voters a reason to believe she will fight harder for them.

We have to keep our eyes on the finish line now, not on the jostling involved in getting there.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. He's not going to do well tomorrow.
Clinton has created her Hellish Roux (from another DU post), and like the divisive candidate she is - she can swallow it up. WV is the perfect demographic for that roux.

Obama on the other hand, has moved on to attacking McCain - while Clinton continues to try and divide the party on racial and demographical lines.
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AllexxisF1 Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. The one thing I will be looking at is the turnout numbers.
I have a gut feeling the turnout numbers tomorrow will be God aweful. Hillary supporters will stay home and Obama supporters are nearly non existent. She will win big but the numbers will be lowest of the primary season.

To which the press will come out and say how Obama nomination is hurting the Democratic party.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. DU seems to get their estimation of WV voters directly from the Clinton campaign. n/t
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. I just wonder why many people in WV will vote for Hillary. She's lost
and who wants to waste time and effort to go vote for someone who is going to lose.
I also cant wait to see her next financials because I dont see anyone wanting to send her their hard earned money so that she can repay herself back.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Lots of different reasons I am sure
But we at DU certainly should be able to understand why some people want to vote for a candidate even when they know that candidate has no chance. Howard Dean won the Vermont primary in 2004, and there were plenty of Edwards supporters who cast their ballot for him this year out of loyalty and respect rather than a conviction he could win, some even after Edwards withdrew.

What gets forgotten is that most of Clinton's stump speech isn't controversial to those who hear it, and wouldn't be to most DUers either. She has some excellent economic proposals that she talks about at length, and she fires some people up with a belief that she intends to fight for them on issues like home forclosures. Then there is a degree of loyalty to the last Democratic Administration, and the sense of history of getting a chance to vote for the first serious female contender for the presidency.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Nice post Tom
It is nice to hear from a reasonable Clinton supporter.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. Edwards Had Suspended
but both my husband and I still voted for him. I have always believed the primaries are a time to vote your conscience although CA was early in the silly season. I don't know what I would do if the primary were one of the last.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. could it be because they prefer Hillary... much like half the party?
Edited on Mon May-12-08 10:06 AM by Texas Hill Country
or it could be that they dont like Obama, like 25% of the party...


There are lots of reasons... but can you imagine if he lost by 40% and she had already dropped out?
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. That would not matter.
The media has already decided that Obama has won. Once the media makes up its mind, the voters be damned. NOT saying Clinton is winning, or even has a realistic chance. But I am sick of this whole election because it has been entirely controlled by the media, from the first televised debates, when only certain candidates were allowed.
I know, way off topic but I am still pissed.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. B/c Bubba is out there telling them she can still win it.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. they deserve to have their voices heard.
Whether or not they are voting for the "losing" candidate doesn't matter so much as making sure that they express their opinions. I would hate it if I were in one of the last states to vote and people would tell me why bother? It won't make a difference or you should vote for candidate X because he/she is winning. I'll vote how I want.

My parents used to complain because we live in California and by the time they got home from work and were able to go and vote, the election may have already been called for someone. They would say "why bother?" if it was already decided. They did go and vote, but they didn't have their hearts in it.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. She is the better candidate.
Funny how some people vote for someone for that reason.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes - because talking about the truth is just awful!
At least it is when white folks want to hide the fact that white folks are racist from the viewing public.

And thus they covertly support racism.

Ah. "it is human nature for most people to identify and feel comfortable with people of the same group as their own."

My apologies - it's not even covert any more.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. exactly.
So, we should just put our blinders on and not acknowledge it.

My b/f grew up in WV, he still visits family down there at least once a year. According to him, it is a different world back in the hills - some good, some bad aspects.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yup - 1/2 my family is from exactly similar hills in SW Pennsylvania.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Do you believe in racial profiling also?
Because that seems to be what you are advocating. I don't deny for a second, not in the OP nor anywhere else, that there will be racists voting against Obama because he is black. There are even some racists who vote for Obama because he is black, a tiny minority of bitter black supremacists might be so moved, though their numbers would pale (pun intended) compared to the number of racists who will vote against Obama based on race. But that says nothing about individual choices. There are different voting patterns in different regions of the nation even when two white males compete against each other and no racial issues are part of the campaigns, overtly or covertly.

Do you argue that race has nothing to do with the fact that Obama gets 90% of the Black vote? That would be hard to believe. And you can't lay all of that on Clinton's campaign; Hillary Clinton routinely got 5 to 10 times greater black support than John Edwards who ran as a populist.

I am not talking about Clinton's campaign, I am talking about not negatively stigmatizing a broad swath of voters with a toxic brush.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hush. Go peddle the reverse racism lies elsewhere.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Oh frigging get off it
I am not peddling reverse racism anywhere. You are talking in circles. It is racist not to notice white racism but it is racist to notice that a racial bias can exist toward anyone other than whites. Yeah right.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. P.S. There is a difference between being inclined to favor someone because of their race
and being inclined to oppose someone because of their race. The latter is clearly racist, but people often vote for candidates who they believe best understand their specific plight. In the case of many African American voters, that could give them a reason to support Obama without implying that they in any way have a racial bias against Whites. This is true of all people to an extent but especially so with members of groups who feel they have suffered from neglect if not out right oppression in the past.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. According to his site, there are many WV endorsements.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. I do too. The run up to the WV primary just makes me sad. I feel bad for the people of WV and for
Edited on Mon May-12-08 09:50 AM by Pirate Smile
both Hillary and Obama. The only person I don't feel bad for is Bill who seems to be trying to increase the divisions and resentments within the Democratic Party and is causing problems for the general election.



Bill Clinton's Message to Rural America
May 10, 2008 2:43 PM

As Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., avoids any real campaigning in West Virginia, the former president of the United States is out there ginning up resentments.

Bill Clinton has the right to say whatever he wants, of course. But he's a smart man. Brilliant, even.

He can do the math. He must know that it's quite improbable that his wife, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., will be the Democratic presidential nominee.

So what purpose does it serve for him to barnstorm a state like West Virginia and tell rural voters that Obama and his elitist political/media cabal allies are mocking Appalachia?

He's using the kind of language Democrats typically use against Republicans -- as in, stuff you say when you don't want voters to vote for the other guy under any circumstance.

This is tough stuff to walk back from.


-snip-
"Hillary is in this race because of people like you and places like this and no matter what they say," Clinton said. "And no matter how much fun they make of your support of her and the fact that working people all over America have stuck with her, she thinks you're as smart as they are. She thinks you've got as much right to have your say as anybody else. And, you know, they make a lot of fun of me because I like to campaign in places like this, they say I have been exiled to rural America, as if that was a problem. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be here than listening to that stuff I have to hear on television, I'd rather be with you. There is a simple reason: You need a president a lot more than those people telling you not to vote for her."

In Madison, W.Va.:

"It is very interesting, from the very beginning of this race there has been a sharp divide in the vote -- the people who need a president, who need to turn the economy around, who need to restore the middle class, who need to give poor people a chance to work their way into the middle class, who need to give our children a better future, who need to restore our standing in the world and the war in Iraq, but do it in a way that rebuilds our military and stands up for America's security and standing around the world -- they have been for her from the get-go."

And on and on... Ginning up the resentments and the class divide (and maybe other divisions). ... His message to these voters: Obama and the media are laughing at you and think you're stupid!!!

Obama has a clear problem with white working class voters. This kind of rhetoric exacerbates it. Clinton knows that -- he's trying to drive up turnout to maximize his wife's popular vote argument to superdelegates. He has every right to do so -- the race is not over, no nominee exists yet.

But this is what keeps Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi up at night.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/bill-clintons-m.html
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I feel very similar
Edited on Mon May-12-08 10:02 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Bill Clinton has routinely been crossing lines of late that are impossible to ignore and very difficult to forgive.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. Take a look at GDP. Bill is RIGHT. The Obots ARE mocking Appalachia.
It's a statement of fact, and one that the Obama supporters (not ALL of them, mind you) have been proving all day long.

Bake
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
15. So do I, though I'm not holding out hope
This is like Southern Indiana or Ohio. He lost there 70-30 or 65-35. So I'm not really expecting anything.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm expecting Obama to lose badly and I wish that were not true
but expectations for him in West Virginia are low and I hope that he exceeds those low expectations, leaving a little room for a positive spin to the coverage.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. I predict a blowout will make Obama look very weak
not just in WV, but surrounding states. The fact that Obama didn't put up much of a fight in WV or KY will further enhance this perception.

Result: Obama looks out of touch with an entire region.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Right he did so poorly in Virginia - is that anywhere near WV
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
20. Nice sentiments
It appears that W Virginia is perhaps the most insular state in the Union. Reading the press in the area I couldn't find a single favorable article there for Obama.

Kentucky will be closer.

In any case it gives Hillary a platform to leave on top with a couple big victories if she chooses to do so.


Prediction: heavy super delegate announcements after West Virginia to take over the news cycle.
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. Isn't obama there today?
Any news, videos or pics up?
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
23. If it would be good for the party, maybe Bubba should quit saying Obama thinks he's better than
Edited on Mon May-12-08 10:30 AM by Skwmom
West Virginians.

The Clintons have painted the white working class as a bunch of racists so maybe you should write them a letter.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I agree with you about that comment by Bill Clinton
But I am having a discussion with fellow DUers here. I am under no delusions that a letter from me can influence when Bill Clinton keeps his mouth shut.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. It is a shame that the perception..
of an entire state is whittled down to "Hard working blue collar uneducated white voters that won't vote for Senator Obama". More than Senator Clinton, I blame Pat Buchanan and his ilk for making this Primary Season all about race. By discussing each and every day the imagined or real racial divide in this country, and doing everything they can to widen and deepen the rift, they are turning perception into reality. I am ashamed that I take part in this pathetic farce of what my country is. I and the people I know are much better than this, and I am sure the people of West Virginia are just like me. Divide and conquer...just like Iraq.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
27.  Extremely well said, and important to remember. Thanks n/t
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
28. very true and I hope so too!
:thumbsup:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
30. As per her routine, Hillary T'd up the race card before this conservative white state.
As it turns out, I will be perfectly fine with Obama losing large in WV.

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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Will you be perfectly fine when he loses in November?
Democrats have always had to carry W. Virgina in order to win the November election.
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. TOO LATE.
And it's only Monday!
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
33. I hope so, too...
because what Hillary is asking us to do is to court the race-based anti-Obama vote by pretending they're not voting based on race, but somehow suggesting that only she can do that and Obama can't. Then chide Obama supporters for playing the race card, as if no democrat would vote based on race unless they're black and vote for Obama.

The reality is, when we picked our frontrunners, we expected to lose votes to bigots. Racists or sexists - take your pick - they're undeserving of ANY further attention.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. There seem to be a number of threads tiouching on this floating around now
so I thought I would kick mine too.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
35. All it means is, "SURPRISE ! Hillary has support! "
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. Not a vote has been counted yet but
my fear about DU today in large part is already coming true.

I really hope we can discuss the WV results without making insulting sweeping generalities about large groups of people. We are the Party that opposes racial stereotyping. Yes every state has some general regional characteristics, but individuals remain individuals, and many factors go into every individual's vote.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm going to focus on those WV voters who voted for Obama today, they are my peeps-in-arms - LOL.
WVers for Obama - :yourock:
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