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Does everyone remember the pledge Hillary signed about FL&MI ?

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:35 PM
Original message
Does everyone remember the pledge Hillary signed about FL&MI ?
I took it off Chris Dodd's site... just for the sake of neutrality



http://chrisdodd.com/media/releases/chris-dodd-signs-pledge-early-caucus-and-primary-states





The full pledge is below:

WHEREAS, Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar

THEREFORE, I, Christopher J. Dodd, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.




Also keep in mind that we have lost sight of all finality, predictability and common sense.




I am just curious why Hillary can break this pledge with impunity. :shrug:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Her acceptance in a video from MTP
You are right, I should have included them.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1976

The video is from MTP, and here are her words.

"Here she goes again.
On Sept. 1 2007, she accepted and signed the DNC rules barring any other states having a primary earlier than the specified date. She did agree upon it before the election and now because she is losing, she wants them counted?
What about your signed pleadge? -
on MI and FL votes.

DNC Chairman Howard Dean
Letter to Democratic Presidential Candidates
August 31, 2007

As the leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 Delegate Selection Rules...
The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only 4 states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, 2008. The findings of Non-Compliance included a 100% loss of pledged and unpledged delegates.


Hillary Clinton Campaign
September 1, 2007

Clinton Campaign
Statement On The
Four State Pledge

We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.
Added: April 06, 2008"

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Great post thanks.. we now have one Michigan resident and one Florida resident voicing disapproval
anyone else?
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why do you hate women?
I mean, come on! Trying to hold Clinton to a signed pledge is misogyny, pure and simple.

And because I know there is a widespread humor shortage around here... :sarcasm:
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. She's saying she DIDN'T campaign in those states, but the pledge
doesn't say the delegates won't be seated, or that the voters won't have their votes counted...it just says no campaigning or "participating" whatever that means.
She DID, I believe, acknowledge publicly that she knew the votes wouldn't count, since those were the rules set by the DNC, I think...
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. it also says something about..finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar
it seems clear that this part of the pledge she is breaking even now.


By using these states as a political football it seems to me she is continuing to break this pledge
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. She hasn't
the pledge doesn't say they can't ask to change the rules later.

Only Obama broke the pledge. He ran ads in Florida.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The adds were approved before he ran them, in a regional cable buy.. she is continuing to break the
Edited on Wed May-21-08 08:44 PM by Johnny__Motown
pledge by turning these states into a wedge issue and not allowing ...finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. No
he got "permission" from somebody not authorized to give permission. I also believe they were national ads, not regional.

Just imagine the uproar if Clinton had done this. But she didn't. She and all the other candidates managed to avoid running ads in Florida.

It cracks me up how the very clear wording of the pledge prohibits running ads, but you guys want to invent a provision that says they had to remove their names from the ballot, or that the pledge somehow prohibits them from trying to seat the delegates later.

The only people to break the clear, expressed text of the pledge were Obama in Florida (by running ads) and Kucinich (by doing campaign appearances in Michigan).
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WillyToad Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Obama supporters are trying to take both sides of this issue
FACT: Obama ran ads in Florida
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Fact, they were approved ahead of time and were deemed NOT campaigning
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Wrongo Mary Lou... south east regional cable adds, approved ahead of time. No complaint was
ever registered, only Clinton propaganda.

If your claim was true don't you think Hillary would be using that to help get Florida seated the way she wants? Hell yes she would.

Obama did not break the pledge, deal with it.

Kuch also left his name on the ballot, but I am not sure that he signed the pledge.


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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Link please.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Link to what? Clinton not complaining about him cheating because he didn't?
Here ya go














your welcome
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. No, that he was given "permission" by someone to break the pledge. nt
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. please see post 48
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. OK, I was kidding.. here is a real link
Edited on Thu May-22-08 10:08 PM by Johnny__Motown
was just buying time


and yes it was a national buy... I thought it was only regional. I was wrong on this detail and my apologies for that.


Even so, here is the important part:


Obama spokesman Bill Burton responded in a statement that the two networks said it would be impossible to exclude Florida TV sets from a national ad. "For that reason we consulted with the South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Carol Fowler, who told us unequivocally she did not consider this to be in violation of pledge made to the early states," Burton said.


Obama spokesman Bill Burton responded in a statement that the two networks said it would be impossible to exclude Florida TV sets from a national ad. "For that reason we consulted with the South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Carol Fowler, who told us unequivocally she did not consider this to be in violation of pledge made to the early states," Burton said.



http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/01/obama_airs_nati.html
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. So the Democratic Party chair of one of the states could give permission?
That would be like Bush saying the law was determined by the opinion of the White House Counsel...

Here is a link to one of the parties that did not agree:

http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1855

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. The party chair of the last of the 4 states to vote. Vilsak has always been a Clinton supporter and
Edited on Thu May-22-08 10:21 PM by Johnny__Motown
has no authority on this matter.



If anyone was going to have a problem with the adds it would have been the 4 states that were being protected by the pledge, The last one of these state's party chair said.... well.. you read it.




P.S. remember my reference to Clinton propaganda? Well all you did was post a link to some of it.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. So, what difference of it being the last state mean?
I know Obama will probably get the nomination, but geeze, the logic some of you use to get them there is really pathetic.

He made a pledge to Iowa just the same as he made to SC. The fact that they had already voted made no difference, or.. if it DID, then the Florida election, which took place after all 4 states voted, should have counted.

If you make an agreement, you should abide by it. Obama used the pledge, as did all the others, to get more votes in the 4 early states. If he was going to break it, all of the people to whom he made that pledge should have agreed, not just one person from one state.

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. It means that if the adds would have effected any of the 4 primaries listed in the pledge it would
have been the last one.


Who do you think should have been asked the adds violating the pledge? Dean?
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Plus, Maybe Vilsack gave her permission to get Florida and MI votes to count.
There you go. Vilsack can allow her to "break the pledge" if Fowler can let him.

(Just so show you how ridiculous the "he had permission" argument really is.)

Good luck to you and to Obama. I would just be a lot more comfortable if he, and his supporters, were capable of owning up to doing something wrong.

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Why.. what position does Vilsack hold that would give him that authority? do you know what a state
chair of a party is?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Kinda specious, even for you, kiddo.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. self delete...
Edited on Wed May-21-08 09:26 PM by Johnny__Motown
thought it linked to my post
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. What's specious?
Obama ran ads in Florida.

The pledge doesn't say they won't try to address the delegate situation.

Both are simple truths.
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sfam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. "it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring.."
"...finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar"

Tell me, does asking to change the rules honor this part of the pledge Hillary signed? Are you saying that a request to change the rules provides finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar?
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. Thank you... that is exactly my point... I am glad someone else sees it too
Edited on Thu May-22-08 09:15 PM by Johnny__Motown
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. Hillary said they "wouldn't count"
and she wasn't saying then that they "should count".

only since the result has she been saying it.

i think this makes her a politician. :think:
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not only that but why is no one questioning her breaking the pledge?
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. You ask "why" about the M$M?... They're both in bed with each other!
It's damn obvious!
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well that's a given about the MSM ...what about the Democratic leadership?
Why the hell are they not shutting her down?
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Ummm.. you are seriously asking why the DLC is not shutting down their candidate?
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. When I refer to shutting her down...I am talking about her
negative campaigning....her constant hype of McCain is better than Obama...her race baiting...her intentionally trying to draw a bigger wedge in the Democratic party.....you know the gutter politics...she is using against a fellow Democratic candidate and not McCain...
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It is my understanding (i could be wrong) that the Clinton name still holds some sway with the DLC
perhaps enough to keep them silent on some issues they should speak out about.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. You may be right....but they are playing with fire at their own peril..
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. I am not sure they have that much to lose, If/when Obama is elected the Clintonians' power will wane
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I can understand Harold Ford and the DLC..
but the Democratic National Party should not be allowing her to lie, and diss the Democratic Party as she is doing. Blaming the Party for the actions of Florida and Michigan, and "Demanding" that "new rules" ala Hillary Clinton be followed. She's acting like a frigging dictator.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. K and R
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. Maybe Keith O will call her on this.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. What will she do on the 31st when they shove this in her face?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hillary "mis-remembers" a lot.


Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...


Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.



House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. As a lawyer Hillary should understand contracts, really.
Edited on Wed May-21-08 09:54 PM by barack the house
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gal Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. She does..she just think she is immune.
She is a Clinton therefor exempt from anything ever signed, admitted to or agreed upon.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. And her definitions of all the words in the contract may differ from someone else's...
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curious one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks to remind everyone. Can you email it to Hillary?
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Yotun Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. So?In order for her to honour that she needs... heh... integrity ..huhuhuh... Hillary ... integrity
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Her pledge was made when she thought she was the winner.
Now, it's different. He words and promises are meaningless.

I find that frightening.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. The meme is now that she never signed a pledge to "THE DNC".. she only agreed to
the first four states that she wouldn't campaign in FL and MI, and she didn't. Ergo, she didn't break a pledge.

The races were legitimate because in the year 2008, no one has to campaign.. people get all their candidate info off the internetz.

(Seriously.. watch the video of Wasserman-Shultz on TV yesterday, that's what she said)
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4themind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yeah saw that but she still doesn't menton the "participate" part
and I've never seen one of her surrogates do that,maybe because even THEY know how ridiculous it would sound to the millions of non-lawyers abomg us.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
29. Well The Clintons are Royalty within Our Party. The Clintons don't have to play by the rules ...
because they INTIMIDATE THE SHIT out of far too many of our pink tutu democratic leadership.

I will not ever vote for A CLINTON AGAIN! :grr:
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DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
34. I remember and now I see...................
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
39.  "Mommy why is it okay for Senator Clinton to break the rules, can I break some rules too?"..

Johnny sit down watch your cartoons and keep your mouth shut...

:spank:
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jespwrs Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. Look here to see a further explanation...
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Bookmarked it, thanks
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jespwrs Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. ANd another thing
Besides everything in that link showing how Hillary understood exactly what the pledge meant, Dean sent out a letter to all the candidates just prior to the pledge:

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/deanletter.pdf

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Nice, you should gather all this info together and e-mail it to all the SDs, just as a reminder
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