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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:30 AM
Original message
Clinton's Shocking Florida Gambit
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/05/21/clinton-s-shocking-florida-gambit.aspx

Clinton's Shocking Florida Gambit

Hillary Clinton's rhetoric today about counting the results in Florida and Michigan is simply incredible. Her speech compares discounting the Florida and Michigan primaries to vote suppression and slavery:

She said "there's a reason why so many have fought so hard and sacrificed so much. It's because they knew that to be a citizen of this country is to have the right and responsibility to help shape its future. Not just to have your voice heard but to have it count. People have fought hard because they knew their vote was at stake and so was their children's futures.

Those people, she said “refused to accept their assigned place as second-class citizens. Men and women who saw America not as it was, but as it could and should be, and committed themselves to extending the frontiers of our democracy. The abolitionists and all who fought to end slavery and ensure freedom came with the full right of citizenship. The tenacious women and a few brave men who gathered at the Seneca Falls convention back in 1848 to demand the right to vote.”


It's worth repeating: They supported this "disenfranchisement." Here's a New York Times story from last fall, headlined, "Clinton, Obama and Edwards Join Pledge to Avoid Defiant States."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/us/politics/02dems.html

Moreover, it's obviously true that Obama not campaigning, organizing, or advertizing in those states hurt him, and helped the more familiar candidate in Clinton. She decided to campaign to change the rules only after it became her interest to do so.

This gambit by Clinton is simply an attempt to steal the nomination. It's obviously not going to work, because Democratic superdelegates don't want to commit suicide. But this episode is very revealing about Clinton's character. I try not to make moralistic characterological judgments about politicians, because all politicians compromise their ideals in the pursuit of power. There are no angels in this business. Clinton's gambit, however, truly is breathtaking.

If she's consciously lying, it's a shockingly cynical move. I don't think she's lying. I think she's so convinced of her own morality and historical importance that she can whip herself into a moralistic fervor to support nearly any position that might benefit her, however crass and sleazy. It's not just that she's convinced herself it's okay to try to steal the nomination, she has also appropriated the most sacred legacies of liberalism for her effort to do so. She is proving herself temperamentally unfit for the presidency.

--Jonathan Chait
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Huzzah, K&R
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Josh Marshall - Talking Points Memo: Toxic

Toxic


For the last week it's seemed that Sens. Clinton and Obama were adhering to their tacit truce, continuing the primary campaign but avoiding the harsh exchanges that make later party unity a dimmer and dimmer prospect. Clinton particularly had deescalated her rhetoric. Then we have a speech like Sen. Clinton's yesterday in Florida in which she compared the controversy over seating the Florida and Michigan delegates to the Florida recount debacle and many of the great voting and civil rights battles of the 20th century. She is of course also claiming that whatever the delegate count, she leads in the popular vote and that that is what really counts. Never mind of course that even if you count Michigan and Florida she's still not ahead in the popular vote without resorting to tendentious methods of counting.

I've always assumed, as I think most people have, that once the nomination is settled the Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated. And I can see if Sen. Clinton wants to embrace this issue to claim a moral victory even while coming short of her goal of the nomination. As things currently stand, seating them would still leave Sen. Clinton behind in delegates.

But Sen. Clinton is doing much more than this. She is embarking on a gambit that is uncertain in its result and simply breathtaking in its cynicism.

I know many TPM Readers believe there is a deep moral and political issue at stake in the need to seat these delegations. I don't see it the same way. But I'm not here to say they're wrong and I'm right. It's a subjective question and I respect that many people think this. What I'm quite confident about is that Sen. Clinton and her top advisors don't see it that way.

Why do I think that? For a number of reasons. One of her most senior advisors, Harold Ickes, was on the DNC committee that voted to sanction Florida and Michigan by not including their delegates. Her campaign completely signed off on sanctions after that. And there are actually numerous quotes from the Senator herself saying those primaries didn't and wouldn't count. Michigan and Florida were sanctioned because they ignored the rules the DNC had set down for running this year's nomination process.

The evidence is simply overwhelming that Sen. Clinton didn't think this was a problem at all -- until it became a vehicle to provide a rationale for her continued campaign.

Now, that's politics. One day you're on one side of an issue, the next you're on the other, all depending on the tactical necessities of the moment. But that's not what Clinton is doing. She's elevating it to a level of principle -- first principles -- on par with the great voting rights struggles of history. There's no longer any question that she's going to win the nomination. The whole point of the popular vote gambit was to make an argument to super-delegates. And that's fine since that's what super-delegates are there for -- to make the decision by whatever measure they choose. But they've made their decision. The super delegates are breaking overwhelmingly for Obama. They simply don't buy the arguments she's making.

As Greg Sargent makes clear here. There are very good reasons to think Sen. Clinton won't take this to the convention, even as today she suggested she might. But that's sort of beside the point.

What she's doing is not securing her the nomination. Rather, she's gunning up a lot of her supporters to believe that the nomination was stolen from her -- a belief many won't soon abandon. And that on the basis of rationales and arguments there's every reason to think she doesn't even believe in.

--Josh Marshall

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/196378.php
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Saw that; this is the first time I think Josh has openly
criticized her tactics. He's remained pretty neutral thus far, but this goes beyond the ken.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I just posted it in its own thread since I didn't see one already. She has really entered dangerous
territory.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. The super delegates need to see that she's turning voters against the party...
...and take the necessary steps to end this shit.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hillary Has Destroyed Her Own Image
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Hillary is a drowning victim who is pulling her rescuers down into the depths with her
n/t
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Or maybe she is burning the village to save it...
for herself.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Agree. She could have exited the stage with a modicum of grace and humility.
Edited on Thu May-22-08 07:29 PM by arewenotdemo
But her dull-wittedness and arrogance won't let her.

And I just don't buy the line that it's Bill that's beating the dead horse of her campaign onward.

I believe it's fully her: "I will be the one."
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. I misread Hillary completely, I voted for her on Super Tuesday

A vote I know sincerely regret.

I honestly believed her policies (such as health care) were more in line with progressive values.

I was dead wrong. This woman does not care about the country or the democratic party. She is the negative side of
Scorpio through and through. She will fight to the death...death of a party victory, death of her reputation, death of any hopes of America regaining its footing in the next decade....

I am disgusted. In her blindness for power, she is misreading her ability to even win in November. I voted for her, and she won't get my vote in November. I will write in Obama, if she steals this nomination.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thank you Debbie
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I went the "anyone but Hillary" route
because of her Iraq War vote, her corporate ties, and my sense that she was not all that popular with the majority of voters and was too divisive as a candidate.

Toward the end of the Democratic debate held right before the New Hampshire primary, however, right before nodding off to sleep, I really felt that all of the Democratic candidates were wonderful -- including Hillary -- and that I could vote for any one of them. Unfortunately, EVERYTHING she has done since that moment has re-confirmed all of my misgivings about her. Additionally, "crass and sleazy" have been added to my list.

I'm with you -- if she manages to steal the nomination, I will write in Obama in the GE.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Thanks for being one of the
people who originally supported clinton but were able to see how she really is..not too far down the line.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't recall her this indignant in 2000
It seems like she wants to do all she can to help McCain win so she can run again in 2012.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. Where was she in 2000? Was she on tv screaming that Al Gore had been robbed?
Fuck, no, she was at Party Central having pizza with Bubba.
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. She is pure and simple an opportunist.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. although she hadn't yet been inducted into the senate
do you remember the Congressional black caucus asking for a sponsor in the senate for their motion to require a statewide recount, and they couldn't get one? Watching Gore having to time out the people who were asking senators to consider the issue one by one was painful.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. to the everlasting shame of every senator. nt
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
15. Every time another poll comes out that says people think she's untrustworthy
She proves us right. I guess she really doesn't give a shit.
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. The first step in selling a lie...
...is to believe it fully yourself--then it isn't a lie anymore.

I believe HRC has this down cold.

Duke

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. None of the candidates campaigned in MI or FL.
Well, except Obama's *accidental* tv ads where FL is concerned.

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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's MORE like "A" DOUBLE Gambit: FLORIDA & MICHIGAN Broke DNC RULES
I'm pissed that FL and MI broke the DNC RULES. It wasn't the Voters fault. It WAS the fault of the Elected officials.


Did the Voters get to voice their opinions (of moving the primary up) concerning this fiasco?.?.?


Did the FL and MI state legislators hold an election so the voters got to have their voices heard?.?.?


NOW the Elected Officials want to use the Voters as their pawns. Making the Voters feel disenfranchised when it was the Elected Officials who perpetrated this course of action.

Texas considered moving up our primary, but our Elected Officials thought better of it. Texas FOLLOWED THE DNC RULES. Texas didn't want to disenfranchise its Voters and Delegates.

I'm also pissed that the Elected Officials go on news programs further fanning the flames of disinformation. They knew they were BREAKING THE DNC RULES.


Why should the DNC have RULES if Elected Officials decide they don't want to FOLLOW the RULES set forth by the Democratic Party?.?.?



Concerning Michigan:

How do you think MI votes should be counted, since Obama wasn't on the BALLOT?.?.?

How can there be a fair tally in MI, since Obama wasn't on the BALLOT?.?.?






If FL and MI get away with BREAKING THE DNC RULES, just imagine what 2012 will look like, every state will be able to say the RULES don't mean a thing.




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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. Why, why, why was such a miscarriage of justice no big deal last September?
In fact, she was in full agreement with the DNC's ruling and signed a pledge to that effect.

The transparency of her attempt to rewrite history is amazing!

Does Hillary really think people will buy into an argument solely born out of political expediency? An argument she never would have raised if she was not losing the nomination?

This has to be one of the greatest smoke and mirror routines in the history of American politics.
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yes, she does believe that.
It's worked for Bush over & over again. She has watched BushCo rewrite history, the Constitution, the Geneva Convention and get away with it. And they get away with it due to the Dem's spineless inability to stand up to them and SMACK THEM DOWN. And now Hilliary is getting away with the same ruse, everyone tiptoeing around her as if her arguments have merit.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. Disgusting.
If she steals the nomination, she's counting on non-political-junkies not even being aware of this crap, and us holding our noses and voting for her. Well, I would, barring unforeseen circumstances, but I will never forgive her for this crap she is pulling.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
23. hey, take a look at the african americans that are standing with
her in this decision. I would say it is a damn great move and congrats to Ms Corrine Brown of Florida's Third District for standing tall with HRC in this move to seat the delegates and count the vote.....it is a damn shame that obama would not wish to see the votes counted and the delegates seated....
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. But how can you tell the people of Florida in the primary...
..."your votes are purely ceremonial and will not count", and then later turn around and say "Oh, you know those votes that weren't going to count? They totally are." And especially, how can you make this argument after having seen that the results favor you? It's fucking ridiculous. It was a flawed vote. It cannot count.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. She signed a pledge saying they wouldn't count...and THAT IS
Edited on Thu May-22-08 06:51 PM by windbreeze
the end of the story..Perhaps she shouldn't have signed it...?? Who cares what color anyone is that's standing with her?? The point is, she didn't want the votes to count and now she does....Didn't someone break rules? Weren't they told this would happen?? Why should those rules be changed??wb
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. So those people want to disenfrancise the Dems in Florida...
...who trusted the Party and the candidates to follow the rules, and therefore didn't vote?

NGU.


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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
25. Demagoguery, thy name is Hillary.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. St. Pete Times Buzz Blog: Is Florida 2008 really akin to Florida 2000?
May 22, 2008

Is FL 2008 really akin to FL 2000?

That's the comparison Hillary Clinton is making in demanding that all the votes (and delegates) be counted from Florida's disputed Jan. 29 primary. Some veterans of that battle aren't buying it.

"That's ludicrous," former Gore campaign chairman Bill Daley told Buzz Thursday. "This isn't like we woke up the day of the election and there are total screw-ups. Everybody knew the rules all along." Daley, one of Obama's national co-chairs, said if Floridians should be angry at anyone it should be state party leaders who broke the clear cut rules.

Gore campaign manager Donna Brazille, ostensibly neutral and a key member of the panel that stripped Florida of its delegates, also dismissed the 2000 analogy: "It was an unfair comparison given the history of the recount and the politics of state officials who openly defied party rules."

Posted by Adam Smith

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/05/is-fl-2008-real.html
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
28. In her mind, "desperate times call for desperate measures".
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Hillary is lawyer subject to laws and rules, McAuliffe former DNC chair knew the rules...
Edited on Thu May-22-08 07:02 PM by barack the house
Let alone McAuliffe threatened to enforce the ruling in 2004.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. If Hillary Clinton does not know..
she is lying, she needs help.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yeah, hilary loves to shock... too bad for her
that the Shock is on her.
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