Rachel is still concerned

that our party is about to implode.

She's more convinced than ever that Hillary will take this to the Convention, and we, as Dems, will be the ultimate loser in November.

She said yesterday that Obama needed an onslaught of SD's endorsements ASAP, and today he received one.

Sigh. I don't know if she's right, but it is cause for concern.

help determine whatever the heck it is they're going to determined. Weighted on Clinton's side.

And, she mentioned if Clinton doesn't like the ruling, she can keep protesting it.

Any who ignore history are damned to repeat it.

We need someone in the Senate to send such a letter to those there who haven't declared yet.

As somebody stated in your thread, we're reaching our breaking point.

been a long road for all of us and no one knows for certain what will happen I think people are just reacting to the stress of watching this play out.

More than other pundits, Rachel sees that Hillary's madness is not constrained, and they will have to force her to shut it down. She sees this window of time to do that closing.

Hence things like the Pastorbation obsession. They take leave of their senses as they look at every major events, sniffing it for some morsel of tasty scandal.

that's a big price to pay for headlines and thrills for political junkies.

A McCain presidency would have dire consequences for our country.

The way I see this... if Hillary takes the Florida/Michigan debacle into committee, it will ensure that she continues with endless appeals and her vicious attacks on Obama all the way into August, less than 3 months before the election.

This must be settled before the committee meets, to stop her in her tracks.

I can only imagine the absurdities she will commit to get a little more air time.

If Democracy really means so much to you, then this should already be over. Obama won, and Hillary can't beat him.

"The people" have spoken. "Democracy" doesn't mean that you don't have rules and laws. That's called "anarchy," and freedom rarely if ever reigns in anarchy. Anarchy =! Democracy.

There were rules for this primary, and by those rules Obama has won.

So, yes, Democracy is more important than anything else - so shut Hillary down now such that our democracy isn't threatened by ego.

We still have PR and two states that haven't voted.

It's going beyond that that makes me uncomfortable. It's like we're in limbo, and can't focus on the most important goal until we reach a resolution.

Unless you want to seriously argue that Hillary can win enough pledged delegates to turn things around, because she can't, then those votes cease to matter anymore.

Obama won. I just want to know why the fucking SD's are waiting so long to grow some balls and put the Hillary Zombie down.

Howard Dean and Harry Reid won't let this go to the convention.

It will be OK.

It will be over shortly after June 3.

Biden has mentioned it as well. I hope they're correct.

doesn't get what she wants she will appeal and go to the convention.

It'll be over very soon. The superdelegates don't want to be seen as having decided the nomination, so they won't endorse in great enough numbers to put him over the top before the primaries are over. They will, however, keep trickling in so that he can clinch the nomination under current rules with his victories on June 3.

Rachel's right about a lot of things, but she's not right this time. Once Obama clinches the nom under the current rules (which will happen on June 3), enough of the fence-sitting superdelegates are certain to join him - and he'll get some switches as well - to put this out of reach even if FL and MI were counted in the most advantageous way for Hillary. That will finally put it to rest.

K Gardner posted a thread saying that Murtha had written a letter to the undecideds in Congress and asked them to pledge NO LATER than June 10.

Do you think it'll be over by then?

I'm trying to relax, I really am.

the remaining Superdelegates will endorse him at this time in sufficient numbers to put it out of reach by any method of counting MI and FL.

(See link in "relax" post)

But are we sure the magic number will remain 2025?

that they'll be able to use it as their rationale to endorse Obama (in many cases switching from Hillary) and this will put Obama up to the point where even if the magic number changes, he'll still be out of reach.

Obama already has a majority in pledged delegates. I believe the superdelegates are taking heed of Hillary's rhetoric of "counting all the votes" and allowing that to happen. Once that happens, most will declare.

Whichever way, Rachel is right. This has to be resolved ASAP. You cannot wait for the convention. AND ... there will be no "dream ticket". There is too much video of Hillary talking about how unqualified she believes Obama is to make either pairing.

She's often the lone voice of reason in a sea of fools.

She can read Hillary to a tee.

There is one super today and the rest are sitting on their coward asses like pelosi. So I will not go down with them.

After the 31st Clinton will appeal and this is going to the convention followed by a loss in November.

May god have mercy on us.

...superdelegates who previously announced for her switch to Obama shortly after the last primary on June 3, then we'll be united before the convention.

is it possible they will call in an entirely different candidate?

It's become such a mess.

Rachel said that Obama agreed to a couple of potential resolutions to the MI/FL fiasco, but Hillary said no, that HRC's intent isn't to resolve the problem, but rather to ensure that it DOES go to Convention. If there's no candidate then, then Hillary has a chance. If she drops out between now and then, she has no chance.

I

neither of them will be the nominee.

She damn sure knows it wont be her.

Don't worry- it will be over well before that.
She has to know she doesn't have a chance in hell of winning

...the ONLY good thing that will come out of that loss is that Hillary will become a pariah among Democrats in much the same way as Ralph Nader. Because of the way she has conducted her primary campaign, she will be forced to shoulder the blame for the loss whether or not she actually deserves it. And then, finally, the Democrats will be able to put the Clintons behind them, which will be good both for the party and for the country.

I can't help but wonder if she's already alienating a number of her cohorts in the Senate. Kind of like Bush isn't taken seriously anymore, nobody needs to kiss up to him, I'm wondering if that will be the case with the Clintons after this has all played out.

One of my sons has a learning disability.

Bush in his evilness isn't dumb about it, he elected two young people to the court while clintons are already ready to retire. i hope if dems do win they remember that its a life appointment and get someone young.

anticipate this being "over" then?

to show "one ounce" of graciousness - not even for the Democratic Party and the American people

With The Clintons it's ALL ABOUT The Clintons. :nuke:

However, I do think most of them will announce their intentions in the next month, so her efforts will become even more quixotic.

The party is bleeding and not acknowledging it or saying "there's plenty of time left" is delusional. Hillary has fractured the party and put our chances in SERIOUS jeopardy going into the General. Heck, polls shows McCain WINING in November at this point and if Hillary brings this all the way to the convention, I suspect those polls may end up being self fulfilling prophecies. Obama is going to need some drastic aid to weather this and it certainly isn't going to happen when 90% of the base (i.e. people from the DU) refuses to acknowledge it and Hillary supporters continuing to agitate the situation.

It's just so difficult to wrap your head around what this has become. If we'd been told at the outset that we still wouldn't have have a nominee, that there would be all this flap about FL/MI, and that one of the candidates kept changing the rules, we wouldn't have believed it. Nah, that won't happen. Hell, even Hillary thought it would be over February 5! :7

Logically, it should be resolved soon, but logically, it should have been over by now. I don't share the confidence that some of my friends here do, and I hope I'm the one who's wrong.

And, welcome to DU, OneAmerica! :hi:

Hillary has snowed pundits, voters, even Obama to a certain extent (I had a hard time listening to him praise her for an "outstanding campaign" the other night) ~ hopefully, the supers will move now.

From my chair, I don't see a lot about the party that instills me with great confidence in its ability to deftly handle situations like the one facing it this election year. It seems to me that the party tends to misunderstand the public's commitment and patience with what to them is simply characterized as "infighting."

I see nothing about a contentious convention that benefits Democratic chances in the fall. I see nothing about this nomination process not being over today that benefits Democratic chances in the fall. I think its ridiculous for either of the two candidates to try and pretend that only THEY can get elected right now. The only thing that is hurting our chances - the ONLY thing - is this ongoing circular firing squad.

has not been investigated as it should have been and could very well happen again, if we lose that will be the reason, we need to demand it be done before election day, we need to demand our candidates ensure us such is not a possibility, we have NOT been assured of that by any one of them and we should be worried, not about who will win the primary because bottom line is that a dem will be runnin regardless of who wins it, if people don't stand together, ROVE AN COMPANY WILL OWN US ALL and it will be our faults...I hope people won't mind him and his cohorts laughing about how weak and gullible we were proven to be and how easily led we were to fight amongst ourselves.

We're doomed. McCain is the beneficiary. It's rank simpleton and no wonder the pundits alongside her on MSNBC have been annoyed at the lack of big picture clarity for months. Scarborough trounced her on the topic, likewise Harwood who was devastatingly matter of fact, and last week Lawrence O'Donnell was demonstrably unnerved when Rachel launched her typical whine that Obama isn't properly articulating all the damage of the extended race.

She's a novice so you want to give her a pass but at some point the lack of instincts is blatantly obvious, and you wonder how it can improve. Rachel is ideal on partisan radio where she'll go largely unchallenged but on balanced network panels she desperately needs more variety in her approach, and a willingness to accept and emphasize some points favoring the other side.

That's what makes Buchanon and Scarborough so effective. Many times we've seen DU threads asking if Scarborough or Buchanon are coming around. Obviously not, but they apply real world viewpoint instead of Rachel's stale tactic of pro-Obama, pro-Democratic spin at every turn. The other night he's losing Kentucky by 65-30 and she's blabbing about Obama's numbers going up everywhere, among the key demographics. It was so absurd that Buchanon basically ignored Rachel's response and stated virtually the opposite.

Right wing cable TV pundits have seen their candidates succeed in presidential terms so often recently it's a calming situation, without frantic need to spin 100% to the right to avoid harassment by their active base. In our case you've got the likes of Olbermann and Maddow basically parodying political analysts to earn points with Kos and elsewhere. Beyond pathetic.

Wow, your citing that Scarborough lives in "reality" is a sure sign you're living in lala land.

It's amazing how Clinton followers keep quoting the right wing propoganda machine to prop up Hillary's candidacy. Let me tell you something. Hillary knows DAMN WELL they will turn on her if she did get the nomination. She knows full well that they are setting her up for a take down. She thinks she can survive it even though Republicans disruptors are keeping her "close". She thinks she can pull it off. She is deluded by her own selfish ambition.

And it isn't working.

She's the only pundit who has consistently been calling things the way they actually fell.

You know, the thing is, it just might be time for the Party to implode. The Democrats have been a dying political force for decades. Bill Clinton ran the Party to the center and abandoned their progressive, populist ideals - and the Democrats haven't been the same ever since.

The split in the Party is now more evident than ever. Perhaps we need another decade of Republican/Neocon rule to invigorate the Gen X'ers and younger to politicize, take over, and get all these old, Cold War holdouts and Centrist appeasers out of office such that America can join the rest of the world in the 21st century.

Things may have to get worse before they get better...I don't think that enough Americans truly realize yet just HOW broken our country is.

Perhaps we need some sort of proof positive to end the debate on that subject and inspire people to DO something about it.

The fact that people are accepting this Obama/Hillary thing, IMHO, is symptomatic of the problem. People on these boards either don't see the danger or are holding their heads in the sand. It's precisely what the SD's are doing right now, in their case most likely out of selfish self-interest because they really don't give a flying fuck about America.

If this bites the Democrats in the ass, I say they deserve it; and then the Party needs to split into Progressive and Centrist Parties, the Republicans need to run us further into the ground to charge up the Progressive movement in America, and then perhaps in twenty years America can get forward-thinking men and women of principle into office and reverse our course.

under most circumstances. However, I think that the SDs are growing weary of Hillary's antics and will shut her down after the last primary.

Even if this campaign goes to the convention in Denver.

Speaking only for myself, I'm glad we have two choices. The Republicans have been stuck with Bush III for some time now, and all their other options featured a batshit-crazy preacher type from Arkansas, a carpetbagger better known for his groomed hair than definitive public policy positions, an adulterer, a lazy actor with a trophy wife, and a bunch of rabid right-wing types known only by their constituents and political wonks. Face it, as far as Presidential candidates go for the Republicans, John McCain is as good as it gets -- which isn't saying much. To quote the Pittsburgh Penguins' radio announcer, McCain can be beaten like a rented mule.

The only way the Democratic Party will implode, as per Maddow, is if the partisans supporting Clinton or Obama throw a hissy fit and don't support the eventual nominee. And that would be tremendously stupid on either side's behalf. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the real prize isn't 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue; rather, it's the Federal judiciary. If Clinton or Obama supporters stay home on Election Day because their candidate wasn't the nominee and McCain wins, the crybaby partisans will only have themselves to blame when McCain nominates more right-wing judges.

Although I voted for Clinton in the Pennsylvania primary, I'm fine with either candidate being the nominee. I just think many liberals posting on bulletin boards have swallowed the pundit pap whole and truly believe the Democratic Party is in a crisis because a race hasn't been this close in a long time.

Highlighting the differences between the two candidates is not a sign of weakness, but rather proof of the Democratic Party's viability and its ability to showcase many ideas and opinions under its big tent. Clinton taking her campaign all the way to the convention is not the harbinger of Armageddon, but rather it shows that the Democrats finally have a fighter who would scrape and claw her way to the White House -- and who wouldn't want a fighter after being let down by Kerry in 2004?

I don't think Clinton can pull off the nomination, but at the same time, I think Obama and his supporters should strongly consider her for the VP slot. With these two leading the party come November, McCain and his running mate won't stand a chance.