:-(

I used to love this place. When I first found it, in April of 2001, it felt like the mythical "Sanctuary" of Logan's Run. While nearly every area of life was infested with sneering, gloating, bullying Bush supporters, DU was a refuge where I could find like-minded people to cry and rant with, a place to let my hair down without fear of attack.

I was a Clark supporter in 2004. It got a little raw then, too, and I went away for a while, feeling my sense of trust in DU betrayed. But... I came back after a while, perhaps a little warier, but willing to forgive.

Maybe it was because it wasn't so one sided. People were hitting my candidate (and his supporters), but they were hitting others too. The fire wasn't all aimed at one group.

But here and now, 90% of the posts are sneering, gloating, bullying mean-spirited attacks on one candidate and her supporters. Yes, I'm aware that there are still some Clinton supporters posting anti-Obama things, as well as some supporters of both candidates posting "positive" threads... but they are drowned out by the 90% of absolutely vile attacks.

It's like seeing the family dog--the one your kids rolled around with on the floor, the one whose fur you cried into when you were sad, the loyal companion you've loved for years--suddenly attack and try to kill a beloved friend. You'll never look at it the same way again. You'll never quite trust it again (assuming you don't have it put down).

No, this isn't GBCW. I'm not going away. I actually support Obama for the nomination. But I will never see this place in the same way again. Yes, I'm sure it will be a good place to keep up with Democratic politics, and I'm sure there will still be lots of interesting things to read... but my sanctuary, my refuge, is gone. No amount of "lets all be friends now" after the primaries will bring it back. It's gone.

:cry:

Do you people not understand that she is hurting Obama's chances in November?

:rofl:

November? She's doing what she has set out to do and that is to let everyone in this country have a chance for vote for their candidate. Why does that hurt his chances?

Please, take some grade school math courses, pass them, then come to understand why she has lost.

She said this would be over on February 5th. She meant that is when she would claim the nomination on that
date. Had she did as well she planned, she would not have given a flying f**k for the rest of the primaries.
You know it. She knows it. I know it. And so does everyone with a bit of honesty left in this post real world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saBU6ux0hsQ

The irony is she was right it was effectively over then. As was predicted by Chuck Todd at the time,
there really was no way she would ever get the delegate lead. From Iowa to PR Obama has
held the pledged delegate lead.

but he has bitten his tongue, and remained civil....In November she has Thanksgiving turkey to look forward to, but that's about it...that an a very chilly reception back into the senate..and it's HER OWN FAULT..

She has NO RIGHT to blame him for HER shitty campaign..

when a candidate who beats him in a number of primaries and is very close in total vote count is simply continuing her campaign, you're proving you have no perspective left.

I'm surprised you didn't just crown him last year and tell all the other candidates they'd be "stalkers" if they didn't stay home.

It's democracy. She's a strong candidate. Get over it.

SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu May-22-08 03:27 PM

No fancy numbers..just an honest assessment

The wins & how she got them..

People love to trumpet all the BIG states..important state she carried..Facts say otherwise


1-8.....New Hampshire... tears & a squeaker after an Iowa loss ....39 C-37 O..odd ballots, quirky numbers
___________________________________________________
1/15...Nevada....won the battle..lost the war Obama got more delegates
51 C- 45 O

1-15...Michigan..beauty contest only (45% showed up to vote against her in a non-election)
_______________________________________________
1-29...Florida..beauty contest only
_________________________________________________
2-5.....New York...sitting second term senator
57 C- 40 O

2-5 ....New Jersey..support from Corzine, neighbor to NY
54 C- 44 O

2-5.......Massachusetts
57 C- 41O

2-5.....Arkansas...2 term first lady
70 C- 26 O

2-5.....Oklahoma
55 C- 31 O

2-5.....California. 1/3 to 1/2 to ALL votes were cast in early to mid January before anyone knew who Obama was
54 C - 43 O

2-5......New Mexico
49 C - 48 O

2-5......Tennessee
54 C- 41 O

2-5......Arizona
54 C- 42 O
____________________________________________________
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

ALL STATES FROM HERE ON HAVE RUSH LIMBAUGH INFLUENCE

3-4....Ohio....
54 C- 44 O

3-4....Rhode Island
58 C- 40

3-4....Texas..won the battle lost the war..got fewer delegates
51 C- 47 O
____________________________________________

4-22.....Pennsylvania..kitchen sink, Fast eddie, Racism, hometown girl..the works
55C- 45 O
__________________________________________________

5-6.......Indiana...barhopping, racism, kitchen sink
51 c- 49 O
_________________________________________________

5-13.....West Virginia...racism, hoodwinkery
67 C- 26 O
____________________________________________

5-20......Kentucky...(see WV)
65 C- 30 O
*************************************************

The states that she won , that ANY dem with a pulse will/would win anyway

NY
NJ
MA
CA
RI
**MI** she's counting it, but didn't really win it
..............................

The "iffy" states that flip back & forth from time to time

NH
NV
NM
OH
PA (usually blue, but iffy just the same)
...........................................

The states that USUALLY go "red"

AR
OK
TN
AZ
TX
IN
WV
KY
**FL** (see above)

I just do not see ANY states that she won, that would be hers and hers alone..Do You?

I was looking for this kind of information. I would add that Canada/Nafta also affected OH, RI, TX


Stalking funny line and sadly accurate.

again. she is not playing by the rules. she cares nothing about democracy. I won't get over it.

So I don't think she set out to make sure everyone had a chance to vote. She only adopted that noble stance when she figured out that she needed the delegates and votes from FL and MI to make her case to the superdelegates.

In the meantime, she's done nothing to unify the party while this drags on - quite the contrary. Witness the angry rhetoric of Geraldine Ferraro, whipping up the 'feminist' outrage along with Hillary's complaining that she's being pushed out as a woman, then the shout out to the "hardworking white voters" who help give her that so-called broader base of support over Obama, now the tactic of painting Obama as a ringleader for the "disenfranchisement" of FL and MI, when she knows good and well that she was OK with the DNC rules when she didn't need their votes and that Obama had nothing to do with the disqualification of their votes in the first place any more than she did.

that many Clinton supporters honestly believe that Obama can't win the G.E., and therefore to nominate him would complete the destruction of this country?

I don't agree with them. I think, not only CAN Obama win the G.E., I think he, at this point, has a better chance of winning than Clinton.

But I'm not blind to fear for the country that many Clinton supporters feel. I don't agree with it, but feeling it doesn't make them evil. Just wrong.

And by far the worst thing about all of this is the demonization of Hillary Clinton. She's made mistakes, and some of them of a magnitude that helped me decide the Obama would be a better nominee. But she's also a loyal Democrat, and really, truly has worked for 35 years fighting for causes I believe in. As in my analogy above, she is a beloved friend who happens to have taken some wrong turns lately. Neither she nor her supporters deserve the vile attacks posted in this forum.

And it's this kind of demonization that I'm talking about. She's trying to win. She's definitely not quitting until the primaries are over. That is no different than any other politician in a close race.

but it is futile. Sad but true. :(

nothing like this before. She is way different than any politician in a primary campaign I have ever seen. She is doing everything short of laying mines to end this in her favor. its too bad so many don't get what the majority see clearly. she is intentionally undermining obama so that she can win either this time or next. the McCain pats on the back were the first sign.

the nomination without some version of fraud. At this point, she is merely trying to damage Obama's chances in November as much as possible holding out the hope that McCain beats him, so she can try again in 2012.

don't care what they feel. what is it that motivates this? His campaign should allay any fear they have but they have it anyway. I think it is rooted in something smaller and ickier. I think she has made decisions based on a need that has become unbalanced in her, obsessive in her that has driven her to do things that are beyond the pale. she is sacrificing everything we think she has because no one is telling her the truth, no one is stepping up. She is nothing to me now and I was a last dog hung supporter. I am embarrassed by her.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You guys are here bragging that he wins NH and PA and all that, and she's hurting his chances? suuure.

I don't understand people who wail about reading threads they don't have to read. You choose to read the threads that make you sad and cry. No one but you can stop you from doing that. Your lament is misplaced. This board is seeing this kind of reaction because Hillary and her supporters have violated rules of good party conduct, and they are rightfully resented for it.

I don't understand people who become hand wringers over posts on a message board.

I mean threads like this one, or other "neutral" threads that instantly devolve into a pack of rabid dogs attacking anyone who says something slightly positive about Clinton (or her supporters).

It's not rational to expect this place to be anything other than what it is, given our circumstances. We have a Mad Woman playing Pied Piper to one of our party demographics, tearing the party apart, threatening what should be an easy victory. Her madness is at the core of all this, and until she relents, this fury shall continue.

Because it wasn't "what it is" then. It was "what it was," the loss of which is what I'm mourning. See?

If you cannot look at the events of the past four months, particularly Hillary's appalling conduct, and understand why this board has become something much different than in the past, that is your failure to glean the difference in this circumstance and those you have experienced here in previous years.

ALL message boards evolve and change over time, and at every one of those boards, someone once a month posts a thread lamenting how things aren't they way they use to be. The fact is that boards do change, but mainly events change. We have not held the presidency in 8 years. Now we have a great opportunity to win in the fall, and instead of working toward that, we have to put up with Hillary and her fanatics tearing the party apart.

It's pretty simple. When you lose, you get out and help the guy who beat you. It's party politics and if Little Miss Thang didn't want to be a part of this party, she should have stayed home.

The things which cause you to become upset are the natural consequence of Hillary's misconduct the past few months. Given the threat it poses to our success in the fall, we as a group are greatly distressed.

The bottom line is this is one lousy board at this site. You have to make an effort to get to this board. There's nothing about the election on any other boards. So your real complaint is that the only board that is about elections is too harsh for your tastes.

when the house was already on fire, and who have spent those weeks throwing gas on the flames, are now lecturing you on how wrong you are about how DU used to be and how you should be happy to see DU turned into Free Republic II?

I share your feelings, and I remember the same DU, having come here in 2001, when the shock of the coup was still so fresh. DU really was a refuge during a time when the world seemed to be going crazy. Now it's just another example of the ugliness that surrounds us rather than an escape from it.

Oh, well, nothing gold can stay, I guess.

See the *brown-shirts* reference above?

DU is ALWAYS changing. I was so upset with what DU became by early 2004 that I left for almost a year. But then I got my perspective back: the only constant in the universe is CHANGE.

There will NEVER be a return to the DU of 2001. It's impossible. So the question then becomes: do you adapt to the ongoing mutations and stake out your territory in the ever-changing ecosystem, or do you give in to extinction?

Nostalgia is a dead end. Cherish the lessons from the past and use them to help navigate the unfolding future. DU is a moving river, it's foolish to think that you will ever step into the same river twice.

sw

but neither should we set up camp in the Free Republic of 1998.

There's really no need to get all Heraclitian here: we are only talking about the most basic standards of civility, something that we had until a few months ago.

and has never gone down. The ratio has gotten steadily and continually worse as the population here has increased. I was discomfitted by it for awhile, but then I realized there was no way to reverse the trend.

So I figured I could either give up altogether, or simply accept the fact that the signal to noise ratio on DU is always going to be problematic. The early days of low membership on DU was a rare gift that appeared in a singular period of time, never to be repeated.

Every DUer is a product of the same cultural millieu of hyper-emotionalism and irrationality that our entire country has devolved into. People evolve at the rate they evolve, you try to reach who you can. The ones you can't reach -- well, imho the best advice is to not let the bastards get you down.

Just be grateful that DU is a place where you can actually come across a few people now and then who are NOT posting out of their ids and their lizard brains.

sw

It *was* different when the place was smaller, but then that's true of the Net in general--I remember the days when relative few people were online and we chatted in USENET and most websites were personal and university sites.

Then they commercialized the Net and it all changed. (Remember the old joke from back then that AOL stood for "Assholes On Line"?)

I think you are quite right that the vulgarity and snark and taunting--the whole ugly winner syndrome on display here--is part of the larger culture, which has grown markedly more coarse in these past eight years.

Still, though, while I don't think we can ever go back to when DU was small enough that we all knew one another, I do think that it didn't have to get this bad. Last election, the real shit-stirrers got bounced pretty quickly. This time they are running the place and driving the decent people out. We had a large influx of people come in who couldn't be bothered to learn the culture of DU and an administration that couldn't be bothered to teach them, and that combination brought us to this very low point in the history of our community.

"old-timer".

To be honest, I don't share your sense of grievance about the DU administration. I think the exponential increase in posters has simply overwhelmed the system -- we're on defcon2 more times than not these days, when it used to only happen a few times a year -- there's just no way for ordinary humans to keep up with the current flood of asshole infestations.

You either fight back or ignore them -- this is OUR DU, and it is what we all collectively make of it. It's not just up to the administration to take up counter measures, it's up to all of us.

Each of us individually has the responsibility to decide which wolf we will feed:



sw

I'll try to keep it in mind. I know there's no going back, but I'm not sure the way forward has to be quite so ugly.

It doesn't matter how much darkness gathers, as long as there is even one light the darkness cannot triumph.

Peace,
sw

their disgust and anger over what she is doing without someone hollering about demonization and hating and all the other junior high crap. people have a HUGE vested interest in both sides but only one side is asking to have emotion and responses about it and the other gets smacked. The other side is evil if they express the feelings they have over what she has done. Since there is almost NO ONE in the media that is defending her behavior or sees a way she can win without harming other candidates or changing her position on rules and Michigan/Florida from what they were, it seems unreasonable that people who support her can have THEIR way with what is said and felt here and the rest of us can't. Some of us were vociferous Clinton supports FOR YEARS. We lost things because of it. Her campaign BETRAYS our support. It betrays us. WE HAVE A RIGHT to express how we feel without people jumping on that. She mismanaged her campaign by hubris, stupid managers and believing the press. She needs to go. She is getting to the point where she is mentioning how she should stay in because RFK got shot in June. The only conclusion to draw, no matter how you spin it is that she expects history to repeat itself. Her demeanor of shame the next day shows me to be right.

Don't jump on us for feeling BETRAYED by her, by hating the things she has said and done that are absolutely beneath the process. She earned it. If people want to jump up and down for her, there are plenty of places including here. They just can't expect us to not be as free with our own JUSTIFIED feelings. Anything else is hypocritical.

And, I am also sick of hearing how we have to coddle everyone, especially Hillary. Every candidate that ran wanted to win as much as she did and when they didn't, they left with great dignity. Now we have to mollycoddle this woman for some reason. If we do that, we undermine every idea that women can run and take it with the boys. She is a disgrace and so are her followers if they expect this treatment which is so far from feminist that it must be from a parallel universe. I want my candidates to have integrity and when they fail, to leave with their chins up. Gore did. Edwards and my Wes did. It pains me in places hard to describe how the first woman candidate to have a shot, when they are losing, is being such a whiny and snivelly baby. what a slap in the face to all of us. What an embarrassment.

I hear ya.:-(

She's a loser - she just won't admit it.

Which would be a week after Obama reaches the "magic number". That's when the Hillbots will be gone... either voluntarily or through pizza delivery.

Of course, the attacks will stop after Clinton leaves the race. But what I'm talking about is the loss of community, the loss of trust, the betrayal of my "refuge" that I will never get back. I can't imagine ever feeling comfortable participating here to any great degree, knowing the kind of vicious people who hang out here.

As I said in my analogy above, even after your dog calms down, you'll never really feel comfortable around it again, knowing what it's capable of.

ever loved their candidates like deaniacs and clarkies. You either are two sensitive or you're just into drama for a while. it will flip back. it did before and it will again. this place is my home and even if people stood in circles and fired at me with paint guns, i would not leave and not feel uncomfortable. Relax. You will see.

I mourn the loss of the DU that was. And I am saddened by the DU that has become. Filled with such hate. I was stunned when the first few posts attacking the very being of Clinton. But, it progressed from a few, to the norm. No issue discussing. Just attacks. And the hatred has become so palpable it is hard to even breath if you have an opinion different than the moral-majority.

Why is there so much venom on DU?

off everyone else. We'd rather have the Hillary supporters join with us and support Obama and get on with the GE. Until the Hillary supporters get real and join us they will be attacked. There is nothing that Hillary supporters can do to change what is and sobbing and moaning and whining about it only irritates the others. When Hillary supporters say they will not vote for Obama no matter what, that amounts to being a traitor to the Democratic party and you know if it was the other way around, Obama supporters would vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is by a vast majority. Hillary supporters on the other hand mostly will not vote for Obama. Of course this pisses us off too.

people in the teeth. you three act like you have no hand in this, like you are just poor little sprites walking around in the big bad woods doing nothing. reality. its a great place. go there some time.

and chanting "Yes we can!" and talking about "change" as if the word itself could work magic only makes the prevalent hatred seem more grotesque.

I'm planning, at this point, to vote for Obama anyway, but it will be in spite of his most vocal supporters here. All too many of them are the most intolerant, hate-filled Democrats I've ever met.

Like Teddy Roosevelt said, "In politics, nothing happens by coincidence." (paraphrase)

I feel the same way.

I am adaptable to change, but I have a low tolerance for ignorance.

I agree with the poster - but the vileness is from both sides of the spectrum. Irrational hatred comes in all flavors and some here are more irrational and full of hate then the repubs.

and probably a year of that he has spent running for president. It's not unlike if I announced I wanted to be CEO of the company that I work for. Illogical.

Greatness does not have to hold a term or two. Illogical that you would think climbing the ranks means worthy. You are just pissed that Hillary isn't there. Give it the fuck up. You are grasping at AIR! And sorry the janitor (you) wanting to be CEO is not an apt analogy.

don't cry. Things will get better they always do.

This was bound to happen, politics can get ugly. Take a break and forget about all the meanness, it will be better here in a few months.

peace and love

:hug:

:hug:

I know it'll get better. And I suppose I'm turning into some cranky old woman, nattering on about "kids today" and how disrespectful they are, and how "in MY day..."

So, yes. I know things will get better, and I expect I'll be in the trenches... or at the barricades... whatever the young'uns call it these days, in the general, fighting to keep that cranky old man from destroying my beloved country.

This place was once a haven, but now it's become a toxic waste dump. The trust is gone, never to return. :cry:

it's sort of hard to be civil at times. reminds me too much of Florida. She tries to spin this like she's some kind of victim, which is doubly disgusting for this female.

Clinton is dividing this party and claiming it's Obama doing this! It's incredible. I've grown to hate her for her politics. She's the one who has done the things she did since March. And there are consequences.

btw, I'm not the family dog. I've been here for years too. So, tho I'm sure you weren't trying to insinuate you own this place, there are plenty of us who have been here for half a dozen years or so who cannot stand Hillary and weren't too thrilled with Bill, either, before Hillary ever ran.

After 2000, I will not let a politician game the system because he or she is the more corporate of the choices. That's why I fight back and will not stop. If you don't like it, blame Hillary for all the shit she has stirred up.

btw, I'm not the family dog. I've been here for years too. So, tho I'm sure you weren't trying to insinuate you own this place

Didn't realize it could be read that way. Sorry. But that's just the closest analogy I could come up with. How's this: DU was once a trusted, and above all, SAFE refuge which has shown itself to be none of those things.

I mourn the loss. Regardless of any future "reconcilliation," when I'm here, the potential for viciousness will never be far from my mind.

**edited for typo**

I remember the Dean/Kerry fights, tho. I left for a while because of them.

I think this place has always been a free-for-all. but that's just me. people would fight about conspiracy theories, candidates, history... still do!

pretty contentious here. It never struck me as a safe haven - but a good place to get news that
doesn't make it to the MSM and for discussion of Dem politics/candidates. It's also a good place to find those
that are also outraged at the current admin and their trashing of our country. I've never experienced this place as
a refuge. There have always been those who choose to disagree without any tact. And the trolls too.

Maybe it's just because it's gotten so big. There isn't the sense of intimacy and "underground" anymore.

I hope most here will unite and we can work together for the nominee. That's the most I hope for, and I still know there
will be disagreement and disruption all the while.

It may be the same for a lot of people who came during the 2004 primaries. But...when I came here, I had just resigned from running a women's issues site for About.com. I couldn't go two seconds on my own forum without being attacked by some bushbot. My mailbox was overflowing with attacks, and gloating, and "getoverit" sneers.

Finding DU was like a long drink of cool water after days in the desert. I can't explain in great detail, but it really saved me and my sanity.

2004 was hard, but after the election I came back to commiserate with "my peeps" --but the scars from the primaries, though somewhat healed, were still there. And this primary has just ripped them open all over again.

because of the nauseating tone of some of the presumptive nominee's supporters and then I realized that's stupid.

Instead I'll pass on the gloating, sneering, mean-spirited juveniles. I don't click on 80% of the nonsense I see because it's just that, nonsense.

And I've always liked Obama, Clinton and Edwards and passed on voting in the primaries because I knew I'd be happy with any of them.

There are plenty of other places to have actual discussions without having to wade through the kind of crap you see here to get to them.

I know, you said you'll vote, but to anybody else out there DON'T SIT HOME!. I am convinced that four more years of a pub administration will destroy this country.

But I hear you about not voting in the primary. I was sitting on the fence so long I've got a permanent crease across my butt. I kept saying to anyone who asked, "I'd be thrilled to get any of them into the White House."

if you can't see it, you ain't lookin

I came here about the same time, for the same reasons. A lot of people here do not know what respect is. They feel since they are on an internet forum, they can be as big an asshole as they want. You see it everyday. I don't know if it was the influx of all the new members, who weren't a part of "the beginning" here, or what, but it is not the same anymore.

This was once a stop I made several times daily, but it's no longer worth it. Instead of being a place of like minds, it's became a contest for who can be the biggest asshole. No, not everyone is an asshole, but I know you know what I mean.

I am a democrat. I vote for democrats only. Always. We have became accustomed to weathering political losses, but I don't think the jubilence of having a great chance this time around is any reason for people to act like a bunch of fucking teenagers, and that is exactly what it is like!

I'm not pointing a finger at any one camp, because we all know it's coming from both sides.

Have your fucking fun. You've ruined a damned good site.

it's a big place

:hug:

:cry:

Would look forward to reading all the posts. Not anymore.

for the first time in a long time Democrats have candidates that they are willing to stand up and fight for. In a few weeks the food fight is over and the serious work of political warfare takes over.

I don't understand a lot of the how-awful-DU-is threads because it doesn't look that bad to me - I must have a few of the most extreme on each side on ignore?

which is why I stay out of GD: P mostly these days. Even the most rabid posters in here suddenly become sane and rational when they post in the other forums, so that's where I stay, too, so I can keep my good opinion of them. I don't even need to be aware of what assholes they sometimes are here in this little corner of DU.

This forum will probably be dissolved after the convention anyway, and then we can all be friends again. I suggest that when you read a post in GD: P (if you absolutely must come here), just mentally block out the name of the poster so your opinion of someone who you otherwise like a lot won't be tainted. That's what I do.

I click on what looks like an interesting thread from the "latest" page, and find myself in a cesspool. Guess I should pay more attention to the forum it's in before I believe the subject line.

Ah, well. I'm off to watch a movie with my hubby. He's also a "refuge" and one that won't go bad on me!

:grouphug:

The way that the creation turned on the creator is the Frankenstein myth in real life.

It's no longer possible for the majority of DU Obama supporters to simply support their candidate. Their desire for complete destruction of the existing party has risen in Maslow's heirarchy to a need.

One more time, for the record; Hillary isn't threatening to assassinate Obama. Hillary is a good democrat and is fulfilling her obligation both to her conscience, her donors and her supporters. Hillary isn't a racist. "Toothless West Virginians" isn't a prudent way to address people in your party whom you want to vote for your candidate, and they are just as "hard-working and simply looking for a better life" as those from somewhat further south for whom we seem to have such limitless sympathy, that we're willing to give them your job, out of the kindness of our hearts.

No way. She is part of the neoliberal, DLC, "Third Way" faction that has been busily subverting the Democratic party away from being the "Party of the People" that my WWII era parents always taught me it was, into just another branch of the corporate oligarchy.

Why anyone calling themselves a "Democrat" would expect me to support THAT, is beyond my comprehension.

All it does make me wonder why the hell so few people are actually paying attention to what's really going on the world.

sw

... I'm confident that everything will be back to normal. Just give it some time.

This primary can be compared to two kids fighting over nothing. One says something, the other has to defend him or her self and before you know it they are having it out. Both calling one another names, and after a while neither can even remember what started the argument in the first place.

The candidates say things the other has to defend him or herself and the battle is on. So of course the same thing happens her at the DU.

Its just politics at work. Cheer up things will get better.

it's the standards for debate that we tolerate. It got bad in 2004, it's gotten worse this time. It's not just a matter of how some people react to some of the things that Hillary Clinton has said or done. The sarcastic attack style of posting, of name calling, of mind numbing repeated over the top accusations, has become entrenched here like a noxious weed, it isn't confined to posting about Hillary Clinton. DU is evolving toward a non ending search and destroy mission.

.. don't go by my low post count. Just re-joined a few weeks ago.

Yes I will agree that it is much worse here at the DU then it was in 2004.

I think part of the problem is that there is a lot at stake. Eight years of Bush is enough. Obama supporters and Hillary supporters both think their candidate has a better chance of beating McCain.

People are darn right mad,including my self, but I have not resorted to name calling, at least not yet.

I still believe things will change during the general election.

Have to wonder how many silent observers are nodding in agreement with you.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :pals:

You may be surprised at the redemptive and healing qualities that we humans are capable of. Sadly, nothing will improve until there is only ONE nominee standing. Everyone is tired and aching for an ending.

Just as your disappointed with how bad it got, you may be surprised how good it can get in return. We have also NEVER had a candidate like Obama to rally around. In either case, glad your not giving one of those goofy goodbye cruel world posts. :hi:

Truer words were never spoken. Despite all the vitriol here, in the real world, I'm excited about the possibilities with Obama as our nominee. I can't say I've ever felt the passion for him that some of his supporters have, but I see the possibility to change the map, change the game, change the country if he continues doing what he's been doing in the primaries.

By that I mean, brilliant strategy and tactics, and bringing in the young people who *will be* the future of the party, while reinvigorating us old, tired, cynical progressives who had just about given up on this country after it re-elected the Shrubby One. (Ok, maybe I'm just speaking for myself. But still, I was shocked when America "elected" him the first time (or at least enough voted for him to make it possible to steal it), because I'd been researching him for my website. But I could give them the benefit of the doubt, given that they really didn't know much about him other than what the media "reported." But in 2004, they had actual hard evidence of what he was in front of them, and I was absolutely dumbfounded when they "elected" him again.)

the people who told you- and I know you're rational, so I know you get this- that she has had no chance for a month now are right.

There are only two options:

1) She knows she has no chance or

2) She is insane and thinks she has a chance.

There may be a subset to #2, which is "she is insane and willing to do ANYTHING to prosecute her imagined chance, and this willingness to do anything has reinforced her sense that 'it could happen'."

But I don't think I ever even imagined I could hate a fellow Democrat the way I hate Hillary. Her conduct has flitted from one despicable action to the next despicable action to the next lower branch on the despicable tree. Her hypocrisy and willingness to behave as though she is not in direct contradiction of what she has said or done or written is appalling.

I vote #1. And you know, I don't mind that she wants to stay in till the bitter end. If nothing else, I'm glad that women (who want to) will get the chance to vote for the first really serious woman candidate for President.

I agree with you that it's been over for a month now. Though I'm supporting Obama, I went through a process of grieving myself after the SC/IN primaries. I thought I'd come to terms with the fact that I'm unlikely to see a woman president in my lifetime. But still, hearing that final door slam shut had an effect on this "woman of a certain age" who came of age believing that I would see such a thing.

I don't hate Hillary. I've been disappointed in her several times during this campaign, but, in my mind's eye, I still see the woman I came to admire and respect as she stood up to the forces of the right, and kept on truckin'.

you just don't do the things she's done. I can't believe my own party is in the business of insulting my intelligence.

But while I know it's indecent to ask a woman her age, are you sure that it won't happen in your lifetime?

There are a number of strong female politicians out there- stranger things have happened...

The thing is many are gardening, fixing up their homes, cracking silly jokes or working through a loss - and all in the many wonderful forums on this site. There are kind and generous souls here at DU but when people keep returning to the same part of the board after realizing it's mean and not in their constitution to abide, why not find respite among the kinder, gentler folk?

It's late, I'm tired, but re-reading this thread has been a good experience. Yes, there were some snark-slingers, but there were a lot of thoughtful posters too.

G'night, all. :grouphug: