Holocaust Museum confirms, Obama's uncle's Infantry Division liberated Buchenwald

from John Aravosis at Americablog

http://www.americablog.com/2008/05/holocaust-museum-confirms-obamas-uncles.html

Apparently, the Republicans are trying to make political hay out of Auschwitz. Well, last week was Hitler, so why am I surprised.

Yesterday, Obama mentioned that his uncle, Charlie Payne, helped to liberate the Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz. The Republicans were hoping that they could catch Obama lying - that maybe Obama never had an uncle who helped liberate the Jews in Europe. Well, in fact, Obama's uncle (his grandmother's brother) helped liberate the Nazi camp at Buchenwald (Obama mixed up Auschwitz and Buchenwald). So the Republicans (and a few Hillary fans emailed me as well) are trying to allege... what exactly? That Obama's family did in fact help save the Jews in Europe, but Obama got the name of the camp he liberated wrong? Okay. I'm not quite sure how that gives us any insight into Obama (other than his uncle is a hero) - I don't really know the difference Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen Belsen and the rest of the camps. I just know that I'd be damn proud if a member of my family helped liberate them. Not to mention, according to the US Holocaust Museum, Obama's uncle's Infantry Division didn't just liberate one of the camps that made up Buchenwald. It was the first Nazi concentration camp liberated by US troops in all of Germany. That's pretty amazing.

I had an uncle who helped the Jews escape in the northern Greece during the German/Italian occupation. I only learned the story this past year from my mom. His name was John (Yiannis) Papatsoris, and he was my grandma's brother (he was also the uncle of my famous uncle in Greece, Yiannis Haralambopoulos, who was the defense minister and foreign minster (among other jobs) under Papandreou). That side of the family has one hell of a history to live up to - it's the same blood line that leads back to our other famous ancestor who fought in the revolution against the Turks. Anyway, this particular Uncle John went to the Greek West Point (Sxoli ton Evelpidon) and was with the Greek xorafilaksi (we think it's the military police) - he was in charge of all of northern Greece during the German occupation. Apparently he helped a few too many Jews escape northern Greece, so the Germans showed up one day and told him he was going to be excecuted. He asked if he could say good-bye to his wife, they said yes, so when he got to his home, rather than going inside, he walked around the side of the house and ran. He eventually caught a boat and escaped.

Anyway, I'm damn proud of my uncle. Sure, I had to call mom to get all the facts straight, but that doesn't lessen what he did (nor does it lessen me). So I imagine Obama is damn proud of his uncle too, and the role he played in helping save the Jews in Europe. So kudos to Obama. I hope the Republicans keep talking about this story every day between now and the elections so every Jew in America learns that Obama's uncle helped liberate the Jews in Europe. Oh, and extra points for reminding Americans that Obama is a "real American" too - he has family who fought in WWII. If that's the best shot the Republicans have, well God bless them and give 'em a bigger microphone.

PS I'm trying to think of an analogy for this story, and I think I have it. It would be like Hillary alleging that in Bosnia she had to duck because of sniper fire and in fact she had to duck because of rocket-propelled grenades being fired at her. Kind of wouldn't have been so big a scandal had that been her only error.

and how it needs to be treated because his Uncle withdrew from society for 6 months after returning from the war in reaction to what he saw in the camps.

He was lobbying for more mental health services for veterans.

My cousin who lives in L.A. is the only survivor of his family in Dachau. I've never been able to get him to talk about it.

When I drove taxi near a base I met several guys that said they were basically on body detail. All day carrying the dead in the streets, or what was left of them, to morgues. Nobody can view horror of that magnitude without it profoundly affecting them. No one who's human anyway.

How many of us can say one of our family members made such an impact as this?

His uncle was a hero who needs to be honored. Maybe we can get Mo-Joe to skip the Hagge "affair" and get on TV to honor Senator Obama's uncle instead?.............

:crazy:

Yeah, right! Well, it was worth a try.

A-fucking-men.

It's soul crushing to see these men's lives ruined by combat, knowing what proper mental health services could have meant to them.

We know so little about PTSD. But we'd better learn a lot about it and fast, lest another generation of returning soldiers be lost.

His point remains the same.

K&R

:kick:

Thanks for helping prove Obama has heroic ties to the Jewish community.

Good job!

And yes, the main point was about PTSD - a huge problem for many of our soldiers. It's hard to slam a guy pushing for better health care for our troops. Doesn't make for a sexy enough story I guess.

could you post a link? If it is a Senator Clinton supporter, I want to get all over his/her ass!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6160540&mesg_id=6160540

Check the links used. One of them takes stuff directly from FreeRepublic and links to Ann Coulter.

Why hasn't a pizza delivery been scheduled yet?

knew it.

but why can't he find a true story to tell about his connection to it? why does he have to lie?

are you?

There are a little group here who abase themselves daily.


:(

The World War II veterans didn't talk about their experiences much. As a daughter, DIL, and niece of WWII heroes, I will never know their stories since most of them are gone now.

When I heard that Obama got some of the details wrong, I thought he should have checked it out before talking about it. But it is easy to understand how this story was passed down through his family and some of the details became blurred over time.

As you say, the important part is that his (great) uncle was a hero and he and his family are deservedly proud of his service.

The naysayers should just STFU.

Obama's salient point about PTSD was completely lost on his detractors who attacked the misstatement of exactly which concentration camp he relayed. CNN was pleased to run McSame's bizarre swerve on this and go with McSame's irrelevant yet bitchy talking points, completely missing the larger, infinitely more important issue of PTSD in our veterans.

It will happen.

The Holocaust Museum or the GOP? Tough one.

I'm surprised we haven't heard this story yet, it's really interesting. Especially since so much nonsense has been made about the whisper campaign of "Obama has a jewish problem!" God knows I feel like I've heard McCain's pearl harbor story enough times.

There's a name and a confirmation.

Done.

Although for full confirmation, we should have definitive proof that Charlie Payne was, indeed, in the 89th and that he was still a member of the 89th on the day they liberated the camp. Just saying that as a former journalist.

Not holding my breath.

not surprised considering..baby, won't you look at him now!

We just CAN'T let a PRESUMABLY Harvard-educated man (yeah, right!) be president, who DOESN'T KNOW that the Americans didn't liberate Auschwitz, the Russians did, and DOESN'T KNOW the Americans couldn't have liberated it because they never made it as far as Poland and AUSCHWITZ IS IN POLAND, and thus was obviously LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH about his great-uncle's WWII experience merely to burnish his reputation with veterans!! :sarcasm:

After all, that's what the Washington Post says!!! They gave him a "three-Pinocchio" rating for his blatant LYING about this whole incident! :sarcasm:

...Honestly, the guy tries to make a point about PTSD, and it all gets lost in the attempt to "gotcha" him over which camp his relative liberated. What does that tell us?

(edited because I can't even compose a good sentence anymore sometimes, I get so angry)

again.

I don't think basic facts of history are covered in Law School. wonder if he ever took a history class at Punahou, Occidental or Columbia? he was an International Relations major, wasn't he? isn't, I don't know, the Cold War, Soviet Europe, Solidarity (kind of a big deal in the early-mid 80s) covered in history and international relations?

Those Michelle Malkin inspired threads from yesterday were just ugly.

"The RNC seized the opportunity to fire off a news release, saying that “unless his uncle was serving in the Red Army, there’s no way Obama’s statement yesterday can be true. Obama’s frequent exaggerations and outright distortions raise questions about his judgment and his readiness to lead as commander in chief.”

The Obama campaign soon acknowledged that the Democratic candidate made a mistake. It explained that Obama’s great-uncle was in the 89th Infantry Division that helped liberate another notorious death camp, Buchenwald. Obama, the campaign said, “is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II -- especially the fact that his great-uncle was part of liberating of one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald.”

All of which raises the question: What's worse, Obama's apparent gaffe or the RNC pouncing on a Holocaust-related historical mistake for political advantage?"
"
-- Stuart Silverstein

link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/05/the-nazi-death.html

----------

It does show the sinister nature of the right-wing to try to seize on this heroic story of his family to harm him

... considering how the RNC and *cough* others *cough* have made total, total, asses of themselves by dog-piling on it. The worst they can do is confirm that Obama did in fact have an uncle who helped liberate a concentration camp.

it sure seems that Barack Obama told a falsehood about his family to make a connection again. just like with the Kennedy Airlift. sounds to me like he's a Star f*cker. his story isn't good enough, so it has to be embellished to make it sound better to people. kind of annoying in someone who promises not to do this kind of thing.

And .. Sure, it's possible Obama lied to drop the famous name of Auschwitz. But really, there is no reason to think it was a lie. Why would he lie about it? Mentioning another concentration camp would have had the same effect to endear his family, and by extension - him, to his audience. It's perfectly possible for him to have recalled his uncle's service in this regard, but with his memory mistakenly labeling the concentration camp with the name of the most infamous camp there was - the one by far written and talked about the most. It's like visiting a museum in D.C. and remembering that it was the Smithsonian, but it turns out that it wasn't.

That's why these stupid little "gotcha" moments serve only to turn what could be a campaign of issues, record, and character into something that will have NO bearing on the candidate's administration.

he never wondered why there were US troops in Poland? Poland? you know, the Soviet Satellite State? that Poland? that's some impressive intellectual curiosity.

:eyes:

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star fucker and not a very good one, either.

first there was the Kennedy airlift thing, now confusing Buchenwald and Auschwitz. I guess not enough people know the name Buchenwald, so it doesn't sound as good, Auschwitz is much more impressive.

but hey, it's an analogy anyway. do we really think his uncle spent six straight months in the attic? thank god politicians never stretch the truth.

no one who was at either camp would mistake them for each other. it's like saying you had an ancestor at Gettysburg, when it was really Wilderness. just one more sloppy application of 'truthiness'

he lied, he was sloppy, admit it, and move on.

I always called my mom's cousins 'cousin', my father's aunt 'aunt'.

I call my grandparents' siblings "uncle" and "aunt" too. Good God, this is all so stupid!

I'm an only child of parents who were only children, but I had Aunts and Uncles.

No one told me they were really GREAT Aunts and Uncles. Of course I always knew they were pretty great anyway.

:hi:

And those of you who don't do not usually challenge those of us that do as being liars or exaggerators?

has he been told, his entire life, about his uncle liberating Auschwitz and never once made the connection that there were no US troops in Poland?

were these the same family members who told him about the airlift from Kenya organized by JFK, or that his parents met because of the bridge march at Selma?

"All of which raises the question: What's worse, Obama's apparent gaffe or the RNC pouncing on a Holocaust-related historical mistake for political advantage?"
"
-- Stuart Silverstein

link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/05/the-...

----------

It does show the sinister nature of the right-wing to try to seize on this heroic story of his family to harm him"

Sloppy - maybe. Lied? Please.

that has what to do with the price of turkey shit in Tehran?

Buchenwald was not Auschwitz was not Dachau was not Bergen-Belsen was not....

It is NOT a matter of "What's the diff?"

This is a photo of Buchenwald, April 14, 1945. Same dead bodies, different view (note wreaths on wall. Buchenwald was hell on earth, I resent your post that would, even while attempting humor, to paint Buchenwald in any other light.

There's a webpage called "The Audacity of Deception & Hypocrisy" (catchy name!) devoted entirely to Obama's documented lies and misrepresentations--so far. The last I checked it was up to 68.

I don't think it;s a rightwing site. You must understand--an anti-Obama website is just as likely to be done by Democrats as by Republicans. That should tell you something.

oh, sorry, it was a 'misstatement' my bad.

like Selma. and the JFK Airlift. just 'misstatements' about the past.

What's the gain by lying?

:shrug:

What has happened to this forum? It's turned dark and sick to say the least. To parse the horror and misery to somehow favor Hillary because Obama got the name of the death camp wrong is beyond the pale.

No big deal.

Buchenwald clientele, hard at work:

the camp his uncle was at was Ohrdruf.

oh well, what do facts matter?

Which is in the photograph.

"oh well, what do facts matter?"

The fact that you're currently engaging in holocaust denial seems particularly relevant.

seriously, do a little reading. both completely evil, there can be no arguing. Ohdruf held political prisoners forced to work (quite literally in the salt mines) Auschwitz was an extermination camp for Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals mostly. it is estimated that rougly 8,000 people died at Ordruf, 1.6 MILLION were killed at Auschwitz.

but you are right, actual facts don't matter as long as the feeling is right, correct?

Auschwitz had nearly 50. Buchenwald had nearly 150.

"only" 70,000 people died at Auschwitz proper. Over a million died at Birkenau, and the rest among the 40+ other Auschwitz subcamps. However, you collapsed the entire network into the name of that network's head camp: Auschwitz. Why, then, do you complain about others doing the same with Buchenwald?

Birkenau was technically called "Auschwitz II" the name Birkenau was used for convenience. Auschwitz I was an administrative camp, and Auschwitz III was the work camp.

Also, its full name was KL Auschwitz II - Birkenau, and Auschwitz I, while containing the administrative apparatus of the network, was not an "administrative camp." It was a concentration camp. Use Wikipedia responsibly.

Cause that's what it sounds like you're saying. The point Obama was making was that his great uncle was traumatized by what he encountered.

Whether he encountered it at Ohrdruf, Buchenwald, or Auschwitz -- do you seriously think it doesn't matter.

Is what you are saying: Hey, it was only Ohrfdruf, get over it you weenie?

Cause that's what it sounds like your saying.

If its not, please clarify.

why? because they are in DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

let's review a few small facts. Ohrdruf was in Germany. they speak German there. enjoy Bratwurst. Germany was occupied by US forces following WWII, which is why it was split into two countries.

Auschwitz was/is in Poland. they speak Polish. like Pierogies. never occupied by US troops, which explains why it became communist Poland. which lead to such things as Solidarity which was kinda big when young Mr. Obama was in college studying International Relations. you'd think that he might have seen a map of Europe and questioned the family story, right?

I suggest that Obama is a serial fabulist, presenting legends as facts to make a point. the facts don't matter, only the feelings do.

It's a rather minor point to be so outraged about.

the result isn't going to be pretty.

all he has is pretty speeches, so when those turn out to be fabricated, what else is there?

his health care plan? his economic plan? his environment plan? they are just as vague as his speeches, (and since when he uses details in his speeches, they are often wrong) so what else can we talk about?

but, you'd rather argue that referring to Auschwitz rather than Ohrdruf was somehow relevant to the point Obama was making and that's why he did it, which of course means that you don't think his point would've been valid otherwise -- that his uncle couldn't have been traumatized by what he saw at a "labor" camp.

www.barackobama.com . Compare with the plans at www.hillaryclinton.com . You'll find his are no less complex. Try also www.johnmccain.com ; you'll find Obama's are far more specific and practical.

but with people saying "eh, it doesn't matter, the feeling was right" when if someone else did the same thing they would be pilloried.

double standardville.

on minutiae all the time. I don't see you screaming your fool head off about that--and we're dependent on newspapers to be accurate in all manners of their reporting. And yes, in the context of Obama's statement, Auschwitz vs. Buchenwald is minutia.

(And you don't think the ridiculous uproar about this constitutes "pillorying?")

So, are you saying that his uncle couldn't have been traumatized by what he saw at Ohrdruf and thus Obama had to refer to Auschwitz?

If not, then basically you're admitting that the mistaken reference to Auschwitz was irrelevant to the point he was making.

So which is it?

or are facts irrelevant to the 'point'?

seems like we've had a president like this recently...

Unless of course you think his great uncle couldn't possibly have been traumatized by what he saw at Ohrdruf and that you think Obama is either lying about his uncle's reaction or that his uncle was a big weenie to be bothered by a mere "labor camp."

I find your screed amazing. One of the reasons for WWII was Hitler wanted to RECLAIM parts of GERMANY that were lost during WWI. Modern Poland...and where Auschwitz is located, were part of Germany, aka the Prussian Empire. Kattowitz, where one would find Auschwitz (WHICH IS A GERMAN word, not Polish), was a rural district of the German-state of Prussia from 1873–1922 and 1939–45.

Much of Poland, and eastern Europe was considered GERMANY, a loose group of fiefdoms.

Regardless of World History 101A, Each and every CONCENTRATION CAMP WAS An Horrific ASSAULT ON HUMANITY. You, buddy, probably don't have a WWII relative who helped liberate any of the Nazi horror camps. My great-grandfather, who was from Soldin (A GERMAN WORD), which was part of East Brandenberg, which is now in POLAND, fled GERMANY when Kaiser Wilhelm started some heavy conscription in the early 1900s.

Now look, you are going to call Barack Obama a LIAR and a FRAUD because his great uncle helped liberate Buchenwald (another GERMAN word) and not Aschwitz? Get a brain.

I found your excuse for an "argument" so offensive that I had to register just to respond. To quote one of your heroes, no doubt, "Give me a break."

I said you couldn't, with any modicum of basic, elementary European History in the past fifty years make this 'mistake.' it's completely nonsensical. the man went to the wealthiest prep school in the United States, then to Occidental and Columbia to major in International Relations and never noticed that Poland was a communist satellite state? how very odd.

manufactured outrage over a non-point, which in turn makes you look like more of an idiot than you think Obama did. I don't consider myself an idiot. I have taken several history classes covering nearly every region of this planet, and I admit to not having straight all of the minutiae of the WWII concentration camps stored in perfect working order in my brain. If you have even a modicum of understanding of how the human memory works, then you would forgive this mistake and get off of your elitist high horse. Even intelligent people can fuck up. It's called being human. Either you're a robot or you're being obtuse simply to rile up the people here. Which is it?

or do you believe that somehow, in studying international relations and chairing the Senate Foreign Relations Subcomittee on Europe, Barack Obama never once heard that Auschwitz is in Poland? And that Poland was occupied by Soviet Troops, not American ones? (hence that whole, you know, Communism thing, which was fairly big news in the 70s and 80s when he was in school)

what's the gain? people recognize "Auschwitz" as it is the most infamous place in Europe. fewer people will recognize "Buchenwald" (or even better, "Ohrdruf" which is the actual camp liberated by the 89th Infanntry, but who the heck knows what Ohrdruf was?)

a rudimentary knowledge of European History post WWII (which I bet was covered at Occidental or Columbia for an IR major) would have pointed out that his family myth was wrong. the man is in his forties, and he's never thought to check? at no point did he read something and say "hey, wait a minute, that story isn't right, I wonder what really happened?" Just as he never seemed to wonder how his parents were inspired to meet three years after his birth? or how his father came to the US in different years, depending on who was telling the story? is he not curious, or does he just blithly repeat fairy tales told him as a child, when he really should know better?

First, the centerpoint of your argument is that it is obviously completely impossible for Obama's uncle to have liberated Auschwitz, and that he should have known that. Now, if Obama thought about that, why would he say something so obviously incorrect? It's not to his benefit to be caught "lying," now is it?

Secondly, you admit that Auschwitz is more infamous than Buchenwald, and that most Americans think of Auschwitz-Birkenau first and foremost. Isn't it more likely that in the family history, at some point someone got confused as to which famous concentration camp was the one in question?

Finally, I'm sure Obama did learn about WWII history. I'm also sure that he did not mentally cross-reference everything anyone had ever told him, because nobody does that. Was it a stupid mental error for him not to realize that Auschwitz was not the camp in question? Yes, of course--but to attribute any sort of intent is stupid as well.

(Also, he never claimed that his parents met at Selma, but hey.)

before using it in a speech, or at least he is supposed to be. the fact that he didn't, that he never once had the knowledge cross his mind, that he doesn't seem to doubt legends, even when fact contradicts them.

as for the Selma thing:

source on the anniversary of the Selma Voting Rights March. which happened in 1965. According to Barackobama.com, his birthday is August 4, 1961. Again, the facts don't matter, as long as it sounds good. you're telling me that a black community organizer speaking in Selma, on the anniversary of the Voting Rights March, doesn't know what year it happened? really?

when does the pattern of fabulism become a pattern?

Now it's just, "Well, Obama really should have fact-checked absolutely everything his parents ever told him," which I agree with, but which is hardly an outrage.

As for Selma? It's pretty obvious that he's saying that his birth was made possible because of the social movement bringing blacks and whites closer to equality--a movement which found its nationwide voice in Selma. Phrased a bit awkwardly, yeah, but given the hundreds of thousands of sentences said every month of this campaign, the occasional awkward sentence is bound to come out.

as long as the feeling is right.

he's either lying, he doesn't actually think, or he doesn't care about the truth as long as the feeling is right. take your pick.

tell me, with this pattern, do you believe his story about the old man working for his campaign because of the young woman? or might that have been another 'slight variation' to make a point?

oh, and read the entire speech I linked to. he was trying to make a connection to the space and time he was talking about. it is deliberately misleading. there is no other way to read it.

"he's either lying, he doesn't actually think, or he doesn't care about the truth as long as the feeling is right"

So it's not possible that he got the two names switched on accident?

Kind of how like you just did?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6153126&mesg_id=6162830

Clearly this poster is too smart to not know that Ohrdruf was part of Buchenwald, so it must be his intent to lie.

And I just gave you another way to read it. You're not too quick on the uptake.

you call these "lies"? Hmmm? Exactly what the fuck does hilary do every day of her fucked up life? HMMMMMMMMMMM?

It illustrates just how desperate they are. Sorta like Fox News' desperation. I mean, come on, their #1 advertiser is freecredit report..and the free credit report isn't really free. They are all scraping the bottom of the barrel and it all now sounds so hollow.

or Buchenwald, and Obama didn’t think anyone would catch it. He stretched the truth, got caught, so what...He's a politician. I can’t stand Obama but I don’t hold this little fib against him.

My father perished at Auschwitz.

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Trivializing of the murders of millions to attack obama for confusing Auschwitz and Ohrdruf.

But then I guess there is no low too low if an attack on Obama can be made.

So Obama has to lie and claim his grand uncle was part of the liberation of Auschwitz instead?

Buchenwald wasn't enough to cause him PTSD, according to clinton supporters, who seem to think it was a great place where nothing traumatic was going on. So Obama had to lie and claim it was Auschwitz.

get your facts straight - that would be my memo to Obama.

He spoke of the PTSD his family member suffered as a result of what he saw liberating a death camp.

He simply got the name of the camp wrong.


The only thing cheap here are the pathetic attacks being made by hillary's pathetic followers, who are willing to trivialize the deaths and suffering at Ohrdruf, in order to float a glib attack meme that Obama was somehow trying to spice up his story by using Auschwitz instead of Ohrdruf.

That was these sad sick people have been reduced to... demeaning the service and sacrifices of our WWII heroes, and using holocaust victims as a fodder for political smears.

then you ever will. He demeaned fpr political reasons.

"PS I'm trying to think of an analogy for this story, and I think I have it. It would be like Hillary alleging that in Bosnia she had to duck because of sniper fire and in fact she had to duck because of rocket-propelled grenades being fired at her. Kind of wouldn't have been so big a scandal had that been her only error."

Thanks NYCGirl

and it turned out it was in a different city, where she did in fact dodge sniper fire, and she just got the name of the place wrong.

It wouldn't be smart but that wouldn't stop her.