Every time I come in here, I'm a little more amazed.

Really?

Really?

I mean, wow.

The Dean folks last time around were super-loyal to him, and fought to the knife in his name and for his campaign...but were fully aware when the deal went down.

They mourned, raged, wept...and got to work for Kerry, even when the very idea of it filled their throats with vomit and bile...and because of that, the Ohio GOP was forced to steal the election because we had enough votes to win it. They hated it, and the roaring echoes of "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO" shook the beams in the walls, but they put in the work and did what they could, even after their candidate went down. They were patriots, and wise souls.

It's over, my friends. Barring his getting caught with a dead girl or a live boy (old political saying, relax), or some other happenstance I refuse to name, the deal has gone down. Senator Clinton is a force to be reckoned with and respected, and would have made a fine nominee. Didn't happen that way, for good or ill.

I'm sorry. You are patriots, and this is only the end of the beginning.

Cheers.

:hug:

The majority here know that it is over, but the few die hards are really vocal.

I was a raving lunatic!

I spent two hours putting sparkle glitter-glue on my Dean yard sign and bumper sticker!

When I arrived at my Iowa caucus, and saw that I was the only Dean supporter, I nearly
imploded. I stood alone for Dean. He wasn't viable, so my vote wouldn't count. I refused
to move with another candidate!

I mourned for at least a week.

I hear ya. There's loyal, and then there's completely outer-limits, over-the-top, over-stay your welcome!

I like how Obama's handling it. He's allowing her to do what she needs to do. It's best to just
treat her like a lunatic with a hand grenade.

"It's.....ooooookay....no one is...against...you...we're all...friends....you can....stay...in...the...race...
as...long...as...you...like....alll....is...well..."

:crazy:

He's a sensible man and knew when he was beat. Dropping out was for the good of the party and the good of his supporters. By him conceding (instead of being drug off stage) he allowed his supporters at least SOME measure of closure and "permission" to join the Kerry team. Most admirable.

Clinton was still in this thing until Indiana and NC.

Amazing race. Never seen the like.

Who knows what might have happened had she won Indiana by 7% and only lost NC by 9%. She still would have had an outside chance.

It was basically over at the end of February. He didn't go on his big run until right after Super Tuesday. Those 11 in a row were too much for her. She had to be perfect, she wasn't. Indiana and NC just put the nail in the coffin.

That's when I no longer worried for Obama and knew it was a done deal.

I see a lot of Obama stickers and signs. I still even see a few Hillary signs. I see NO McCain signs. None. Nada. Zip.

Does that sound like a red state to you?

I am cautiously optomistic, which is different than what I felt in 2004.

This concludes my IN bird's eye view. ;)


BTW, great post! :hi:

I don't think most people realize what he accomplished.

The way it is going, the only dignity they will be allowed is if she musters something out of all this, and I think they know this and hence their desperation. I was a Clark supporter in 2004, but not to the extent that some were. I never memorised his statements or other such things. Neither have I done this with Obama. I guess it comes from my childhood and being raised in the church. I refused to memorized verses and all the other stuff I was suppose to do as the preacher's kid. I also learned early that all humans have feet of clay and not to put them on a god's level, hense I worship no one. I believe in some's good intentions, but am not overly disapointed when they fail to live up to my expectations. After all I am sort of a misanthrope. ;)

She needs to get out of the race to give her supporters time to heal. I worked so hard for Edwards. I was so disappointed when he suspended his campaign. I'd still vote for him if I could. It takes a long time to accept the idea of voting for a candidate who was not your favorite. Hillary needs to put the party first. She seems to have difficulty doing that. What a shame for America.

Today has been a toughy. I come home, check to see what's goin' on in the asylum ... see Will's beacon shining right on top - & your nugget nestled in it!

Too true.
Too funny.

"It's.....ooooookay....no one is...against...you...we're all...friends....you can....stay...in...the...race...
as...long...as...you...like....alll....is...well..."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You know, just two hours ago I had a coworker in my cube talking about the Dean scream and acting like it was the worst, most embarrassing thing anyone has ever done. She is a Republican, natch. Although she's an artist like me, with a gay brother to whom she is close, and in most other ways would NEVER strike you as a Republican. Go figure. Anyway, all I could do is shake my head and think "How can a stupid scream really have been worse than... well name all the shit Dubya does on a daily basis?" I don't get into it with her though. It's not worth it. She is planning to potentially vote for Obama or just not vote at all. She doesn't like McCain and loathes Hillary (again, natch).

i have to hear this dean scream. i had only heard about it until today. so i googled it and came up with "howard dean's scream" on youtube - a 1 minute 26 second clip of him talking to his supporters following the Iowa caucus. is that the right scream? because if it is, what crap to make any kind of issue out of. migawd, gwbush tells lies and countless people have died as a result. gwbush doesn't pay attention to his real intelligence and 911 happens. gwbush trips over his tongue, appears to have no knowledge of or respect for protocol when visiting other countries, well you know i could go on and on and on. and dean's exuberance on this one occasion is the reason he lost an actual chance at the presidency, and is still being talked about to this day?

i'm either out of touch entirely or the world is fucking nuts.

link to what i saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FzCeV0ZFc

You would never believe this woman was a Republican if you met her. Never in a million years. Like I said, she's an artist, she's intelligent, seemingly informed, she's really into raising her children in a very natural, progressive manner, she's fun, she's friendly, she has pictures of her gay brother (and his partner and children) hanging in her cube... I could go on. But then once in awhile she reminds me of that utter disconnect in her life. Like bringing up the Dean Scream in 2008 and acting like it actually was newsworthy much less something that should rightfully sink a campaign. That's when I am really aware of how nuts the world is, because I don't get that. The only thing I can think of is that she was raised in a very religious, conservative military family and that part of her thinking is just hard-wired. She has a sister who's a fundie, husband in the military, seventh kid on the way. One of her siblings won't go to a family event that the gay brother attends. And then there's my friend, who gets along just fine with all of them. It hurts my brain every time I think about it.

The "Dean scream" was a manufactured piece of character assassination the media dutifully hyped. It was just standard "fire up your supporters" fare distorted by a high sound level on his microphone and reduced audience noise. The only part of that whole thing that came close to earning ridicule was the standard "expectations" spin ("we would have given anything for 3rd place in Iowa"). But of course, the media can scarcely attack that, since their political coverage is about nothing else.

as in I WAS a raving lunatic! :)

although i was not here at the time (DU)and did not ever work against the dean candidacy
im very sorry he didnt win the nomination
he has shown himself to be more than qualified

memory.. I am in Iowa also.. and I was for Gephardt.. needless to say.. you can just imagine my surprise when we were not enough to be viable.. and I had to choose between Kerry or Edwards at caucus... I just was not prepared for it..I had to go and talk to people in both groups to find who came closer.. and both being so close.. I finally went with Kerry, but it was not whole hearted either.. it took maybe a month..

So much so that I went to LA, along w/ about 10 others from behind the Orange curtain, to lobby the CA DNC members that the good doctor should be the next DNC chair. There was an overflow crowd at the venue - all Dean supporters - well not all, I think there were 2 people who spoke in support of other candidates.

I'm still an uncompromising supporter of Howard Dean.

Thanks.

A good message well put.

It's futile and destructive. Do you think the party is strong enough to stop her? Do you think it will be settled this weekend? The sooner it is, the sooner her supporters can begin the grieving process (or move beyond the first stage rather.)

I supported Dean originally, but every sports fan knows that your team doesn't always win. I root for an AL team, but when they are out of the playoffs I root for the AL team in the World Series. There's always next year. I personally can't wait until we are all rooting for the same team again.

When Edwards made that promise he was hailed here. When Kennedy took it to the convention with a much larger deficit there were no irrational calls that he must be

stopped.

She deserves the same consideration.

Just sayin'

Just don't try to tell me it's for the good of America, or the good of the Party or anything else other than, at this juncture, it's for "Hillary Clinton's Ego-Maniacal Self-Gratification."

If that's a campaign slogan you can rally behind, then you are beneath any further conversation on the matter.

P.S.: How'd '80 turn out, Slick?

I mean, if she had some inherent overwhelming superiority in any area it would be one thing, but there's really nothing about her candidacy(and I think I'd say this at this stage if I HAD supported her)that could justify the damage being done to the party.

You know she's sacrificing her dignity and her reputation by not letting this end.

Edwards vowed to stay in because his signature issue, poverty, wasn't being spotlighted by the other candidates, and he knew that even though he couldn't win, he could influence the platform to include that issue. Apparently he got enough assurances from the other two candidates that he felt he didn't need to carry it through to the convention.

Same thing with Kennedy - he stayed in to ensure that an issue - economic justice - was central to the party platform, and felt he could best accomplish that by running until the convention. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/tedkennedy1980dnc.htm

Hillary isn't staying in for an issue. There is no significant signature issue that Obama is ignoring that she wants to have spotlighted at the convention. She isn't staying in to influence the formation of the platform. She isn't staying in because she wants to be able to steer the direction of the party.

Hillary is staying in for Hillary. And she's abusing the people who supported her.

Didn't try to change the rules because he was losing like Hillary is.

Amazed at how the HRC people can't let go---and willing to harm the party to boot. She's not the one, never was. Why should she have been? She was the wife a President and a short term junior Senator who did nothing to advance progressive causes or speak truth to power, when that was necessary. Sorry. Those are not the qualifications most people were looking for. There will be a female president one day, just not her.

sensible truth! :pals:

I just order the big three-liter jug 'o bile -- now what in the hell am I going to do with it!!!

:mad:

of posts, so use liberally!

Cut me, Mick!

I don't want to live in denial; it's too hot there in the summer and too cold in the winter.

Kerry, but when he picked John Edwards for VP that helped a lot.

I was NEVER as crazed about Dean as some of the die-hard Hillary folks are though. They just REFUSE to face it.
It's weird that her campaign is like that too. They don't seem to expect people to notice that they're trying to
change the rules, contradicting themselves and exaggerating her standing more every day.

It has been interesting. :hi:

Bill: "Hillary's the only candidate who's ever been told to drop out." (That's not true, of course.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teS1-ZvSNWM&eurl=http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/197106.php

for him to say "no other candidate has been disrespected like her," and his cries of a "cover-up.":crazy: That was the last damn sensible straw. With him standing in the back of a pick-up truck spewing this no less. If it wasn't such a damn embarrassment, it would be hilarious.

Bill needs to cut the crap and start trying to unite the party rather than polarizing it for the sake of getting his wife elected. We united behind him and now it's time for him to do the same. I've supported that man and eaten tons of crow for him. I've had it. I used to hang on his every word and now I can't stand to hear him speak. It's just sad.

If when he gets done there is a party left to leave.

"Voters fall in love in the primaries. In the General Election, they fall in line."
It's time for the Clintons to fall in line.

just one well. They have wells all over the country where they've left their poison.

I haven't been around here long (obviously) but I keep trying to remind people that what we stand to lose if McCain wins is the main issue and nothing else. I could SCREAM when I see (women especially) say they are going to work for McCain when Hillary finally realizes she is not the nominee!!!!!

:toast:

It really seems like lots of the die-hard Clinton fans are Republicans or paid posters.

I'm not stubborn, I juust play so online. Where's my check?

Sweet. ;)

Nah, the "Troll/Paid Infiltrator" myth has been around a long time. Skinner et al. don't give it much credence, and as they are able to see the ISP numbers of posters along with other identifying data, I'm pretty sure their dismissal of that alleged phenomenon is correct.

The band kept playing on the deck of the Titanic right up until their feet got wet. Never underestimate the power of...whatever that is.

I remember one Clark poster later admitted, about a year after it was all over, that when he landed on DU in autumn '03 it was all about Dean and he "couldn't have that" so he got on the horn ... there's been a lot of that this season, as well.

Frodo and seventhson (what was it?) who came out on election night.

Quitters need not apply. Considering it is the repubs that hate Clinton and want
the easiest Democratic candidate to beat (Obama), I would aim my paranoia at the
die-harder and abrasive Obama fans.

than in any race in my lifetime, at least. It has been magnificent, and a gift to democracy. Five states left, that's it. Unreal.

Did you happen to see this:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WilliamPitt/456

It's true.

the thought process far enough. Yes, the Republicans HATE Clinton. And so do many Independents. That's why they WANT her to get the nomination (Rush, Coulter, Scaife etc.) A Clinton nomination would effectively mobilize their base (which really isn't expecting to win and doesn't really like McCain) as nothing else would; and then McCain could win. Also, a large portion of the youth vote, and the newly registered would not vote out of disillusionment.

The polling numbers about which candidate could more easily beat McCain are really pretty meaningless at this point. The GE is still months away. Anything can and likely will happen.

and how many of them just play delusional on DU.

But as an '04 Dean supporter, I experience significant differences.

I always admit that my opinion could be wrong. For me, given how I was tracking the contest develop all along, it simply passed the point where I believed Clinton could still win, so for me it would have been denial not to admit it. I have no problem with Clinton supporters who will back Obama against McCain if Hillary is not the nominee.

I'm not a Hillary supporter so much (I find both candidates to have admirable qualities) but the policy differences are meaningful.

that has been lost in the shuffle. Universal healthcare is free to all. It is paid for through taxes and overseen by the government. It is what England, Canada and many Scandinavian countries have. The only difference between Hillary and Barack's plan is under hers everyone is required to carry the plan and under his you do not. There a lot of people, many non democrats, that resent the idea that they would lose their freedon to chose whether or not they wanted this coverage, especially since it is not free. If you don't think this will be a repub talking point and that people will not respond to it, then I think you are wrong. Even though they are the ones taking away our freedoms, this is one of their favorate attacks against democrats and the "big government" they say we all want. There will be enough attacks on Barack's plan because of the "big government" aspect, and it is not required for everyone.

"Both their plans stink" sounds very much like what I hear from Republicans "they're all the same".

The only difference between Hillary and Barack's plan is under hers everyone is required to carry the plan and under his you do not.

Optional ≠ Universal

It's like saying that the only difference between my car and yours is that your car only has two wheels, spokes, handlebars, pedals and no motor. Otherwise they're just alike. Obama's plan is not universal, and it is not a meaningful improvement from what we have now.

People are okay with the idea that they need to share the burden of their healthcare, the problem is that in the current system, that burden is unbearable, and the reason is because there are uninsured people. So long as there are uninsured people, it will be unaffordable. The mechanism to get insurance to people can be flexible, and so long as (as is the case with the Clinton plan) public insurance like Medicare is one of the options, insurance companies will be unable (or at least less able) to gouge consumers.

I'd prefer an entirely public financing solution like Canada too, but we ain't gonna get it. Edwards lost. Insurance companies are going to be a big player no matter what. Once we accept that, it becomes clear that universal coverage with public insurance being one of the choices on the menu is a superior solution to what we have now - and will continue to have in an Obama administration.

Everyone has already made up their minds about the Wright thing, the "Chicago machine" thing will resonate with people over 60 maybe, and ol' Johnny might have too many problems with Gramm and the mortgage crisis thingy to lay down the turf.

I can't WAIT until Obama and his crew can resight their deck guns onto his crippled, leaky little schooner.

Boom. Blub. Gone.

The Obama people that loaded the deck in NC with too many race cards shall not have
it their way by stealing it. Their baseless accusations against the Clintons shall
not be rewarded with an easy steal.

Seem to recall some Dean folks crying theft after Iowa and NH. Something about a shitty anti-Dean ad comparing him to bin Laden, and something about campaign slogans getting stolen from him, and something about a general gang-stomping of his candidacy by the other runners. It was savage, and totally effective.

Politics is brutal. Bring a helmet next time. :hug:

n/t

Too bad--the original helped make Ohio close enough to steal.

Clark was sponsored by the Clintons in order to disrupt the nomination process for Dean. He had too much momentum. It also allowed them to support a brand new comer "candidate" rather than someone established that actually had a shot. End result, Hillary gets her four more years to get up to speed for her run. Yes. I'm cynical.

I hope you know that you are now a misogynist in these parts. If you don't wander in much, you may have missed that. You're probably dead to them now, too. They never really liked you.

Many people are amazed at how quickly, deliberately, and pointedly Senator Obama has obliterated the attacks from John McCain. They ask why he wasn't this way before.

Senator Obama and his team have given Clinton (both of them actually) a total pass for each of the many lies, mis-statements, overly-tired excuses.

If Senator Obama had responded to Clinton in kind, she would have been knocked out months ago. Each time he graciously accepted whichever excuse she spun. Not only that he urged all of his senior supporters to do the same, which they did. Most noticeably was Senator Durbin after the assassination blunder.

The Clinton problem, totally self-induced, was every time she got a pass she created a bigger whopper.

You may think confronting a liar is baseless. Most people do not. You may feel assassination is appropriate for Presidential candidates to legitimatize. Most people do not.

You, like all the rest of us, are welcome to form opinions. Most of us try to base them upon facts.

Baseless??? Not in a million years. And it is use of words like that which so offend people who can read and listen. A video filled with lies is not a "baseless accusation." It is called an observation. You don't have to like the evidence, but it is there.

<snip>
Senator Obama and his team have given Clinton (both of them actually) a total pass for each of the many lies, mis-statements, overly-tired excuses.
<snip>


<snip>
The Clinton problem, totally self-induced, was every time she got a pass she created a bigger whopper.
<snip>


Welcome to DU!!:hi:

I've actually been a lurker here for several cycles, with only an occasional post. I used to keep my big mouth shut, but after what I've seen including the worst organized and worst executed campaign in my political life, I had to begin posting.
Thanks again.

"You may feel assassination is appropriate for Presidential candidates to legitimatize. Most people do not."

He didn't say she made reference to "hard-working whites" later in the campaign. She made the reference herself. So anything intimated, suggested, or even stated obviously by anyone at any point prior to that had some basis to it.

It is the Clintons who will not be rewarded. Particularly if she manages to steal the nomination.

Or maybe that was "elitism", I'm not sure. He didn't try to make himself a martyr over it though.

All the more reason to actually start going toe to toe with McCain... oh wait! Obama has already done that! Wise man, and a very, very good call on his part.

Now, if all the fucking whiners on BOTH sides of this will STFU and get with the Obama program... dreaming, I know.

I can't stand either of them, but will vote for the Dem nom in the GE.

One of these days I'd like to actually be able to vote for the candidate I feel is the best. More dreaming, probably.

:rofl:

If, God forbid, the election is 'close' like 2000, I would like to hope that Obama will fight as hard as Hillary is right now. I like her way better than folding at a sneeze like Kerry did. And I think Kerry's ease in gaining the nomination made him quick to give up. I am happy the nominee this time had to work for it and earn it and win the voter's hearts and minds. Last time it was 'you are assigned John Kerry, rich guy who voted for the war you hate. please send money.' And that is part of why we lost. Also part of why McCain will loose.
Funny that we seem to not care so much if Democrats win, but rather that they drop out with good timing. For 8 years we complain that Democrats are weak and can not hold their ground. Then one does hang tough and we hate seeing it. Well. I wish it had been her over Kerry in 04. She would not have been waiting by the phone itching to give up as fast as possible. This much we know. I've seen far worse traits in a politician than tenacity in the face of apparent defeat. I've seen them concede in the face of possible victory. I'll take the former. Better to give up too late than too soon. If winning is the idea that is.

not counting votes that couldn't be counted? Typical. Funny that no one gives a shit about votes counting until...'after'...the election. Hoping against hope for the "Catastrophic Event" that will hand Hillary the nomination is not 'fighting'. It is sad. And if she is seen to have caused the 'catastrophic event' it will be even sadder.

four years later.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6160591

It seems that a number of Hillary supporters have no use for John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Howard Dean, or black people. I wonder how much work those that blame Kerry have done on election reform in their own states.

The ignore and hide thread features have come in handy this primary season. :hi:

He chose not.
He deserves to be criticized for quitting as quickly as he did.

He had a chance to bring greater attention to the issue and he chose not to.

feel the same the next time? Will you hold the candidate responsible for a corrupt state government, and the way the state runs their elections?
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/985
http://www.electiontruth.org/

I think we were called Deaniacs? Or called ourselves that? I don't know, it's a blur and I've tried to block a lot of it out, especially a bitterly cold night in January when the Iowa caucuses were held and I cried with my best friend and refused to take my Dean sign down out of the yard.

But I got on board with Kerry and LONG before the convention. By the time the convention rolled around, I was in full-steam ahead.

I still have my Dean signs. His book (anyone remember his book?). My Dean shirts. It still pangs a bit when I see those things, but I tucked them away in a closet. I still feel a tug at my heart when I see him or hear him speak.

But I got behind Kerry. Supported him, voted for him, ended up really liking and respecting him.

just wondering because it doesn't sound like that.

I think they are remaining active so they can continue the fundraising, so as to offset the debt they have accrued.

I think there are probably some paranoid bitter-enders on the staff who want to make sure they remain at full speed in case Obama steps on his balls and knocks himself out of the running, requiring them to step in without a hitch.

*koff* Gary Hart *koff*

Not entirely stupid.

helping Hillary to re-pay herself for the MILLIONS she threw down the drain in seervice to her own vanity.

She gambled, she lost. No refunds. (I hope.)

I was one of those Deaniacs back in the day, and I'm glad to see that you remember our efforts for the nominee, grudging though they may have been.

As much as we liked our guy, it was always about beating Bush at the end of the day, and the idea of trying to take down a fellow Democrat at the expense of that effort was unthinkable. It was always about beating Bush and getting a Democrat elected, first and foremost. I would have even choked back my projectile vomit and pulled the lever for Lieberman, had it come to that.

:)

I remember being here fighting for him tooth and nail during the primary.
we did know when it was over though. we didnt like it, and as you said some of us got angry, but we also got over it...
some things are more important than getting everything you want.

the fact that people would even dare risk our chances in november when its more than clear that this race is over is beyond me.

i was undecided until the last 2 months. i didnt really care much for either obama or clinton, but i knew obama had positioned himself being the nominee. with that being said i still hadnt made up my mind who to vote for(i live in KY, late primary). then came the attack ads and crazy language from the clinton camp. that was all i needed to hear and see.
ive since donated to our nominee and voted for him in the primary.
its time to stop arguing over a primary thats been over for a while now.
there are more important things than having everything done your way.

and way of thinking. voting in NC. after my first choice didn't run, my second, third and fourth choices dropped out, it was hillary or barack. i thought at one point that hillary would make the better president. but then she became a detestable candidate. lies, smears - desperation and bullshit. she had my vote to lose, and she lost it. that last bullshit debate and instead of raking the moderators over the coals as they deserved, she spewed some crap about obama not being able to stand up to "the tough questions." citing karl rove's analysis as evidence that she still has a chance??!! her and her husband both making backhanded racially loaded comments and then crying "they're playing the race card" when they got called on it? she can't say i'm sorry anymore than the present sorry ass president can and that is a terrible lack in a president. terrible.

i still maintain however that she has earned the right to campaign through to the last primary. yes we all know it's decided, but she's been there from the get and she has won a lot of votes. i'm looking for her to drop out after the final primary; if she doesn't THEN i'll be hating on her as much as anyone. 'til then.

I am fairly certain that Senator Obama will be the Democratic nominee. However, until the official announcement is made, I will continue to support Senator Clinton because, of the two candidates left, I believe she has the best chance of defeating McCain in the GE. Also, I have never switched teams in the middle of a game just because the other side was winning and I feel the same way about this race.

I don't suppose that my support of Senator Clinton will have any effect on the nomination process at this point. I have not and will not do anything to undermine or jeopardize Senator Obama's position and I have not posted any trash about him on this board or any other, only my concerns about his experience and his ability to defeat McCain, which I feel are valid.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee in November regardless who that nominee is.

:hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast:

and would bring some sanity and competence back into the federal government.

If I didn't believe in and support Dean and his "50-State Strategy", I would not have signed up for his "Democracy Bond" program back in early 2006.

http://www.democrats.org/democracybonds.html

:kick::kick:

Most will come around but a few will bug out. whatev

You said it. I am one of those "super loyal" Dean folks, but I was never prouder when John Kerry became our nominee.

Great post and a very healthy perspective, William R. Pitt!

K&R!

got immunized against the pressure months ago -- when Obama supporters and others were PREMATURELY trying to force her out of the race. Early on there was so much untoward, unwarranted pressure and Hillary's supporters were justified in continuing the fight.

Now that her chances are nil, they just can't see that the situation really is different now.

Hairy Bastid! :applause:

Its a truly welcome change. K&R!

:evilgrin:

...ing post more of this, and more often?

You magnificent bastard.

and goading disappointed Hillary supporters into a righteous frenzy that goes beyond all reason.

This is an element which you are not willing to make an issue, but assuredly it is quite the case. Many people are not who they are pretending to be!

You're not the first with a sensible post, but people just chill for you. Amazing. Great post.

:in awe:

Or in this case, until the fat lady cajoles, coerces, buys and blackmails all the superdelegates she can and they vote.

The vote, you know, is what counts. Hopefully some of the superdelegates have a little bit of respect for the real vote which is the vote of the people. Which matters to Hillary Clinton only when the vote is for her.

So far the only supedelegate who has made it clear she doesn't respect the real vote is Sheila Jackson Lee. Who hopefully will find out next time that the votes of her constituents do count when they vote her out of office.

Barack Obama is the choice of the people as well as the voice of the people.

Sense and sensibility for a change.

Rare uncommon common sense.

Even though it is a hard pill to swallow for the Clinton loyalists, they must take up the mantle & march on with the rest of us, if we are to beat McCain. We cannot take any victory for granted, we know the GOP will do "whatever it takes" to win. So, we've got to fight on with ALL of our might, which must include the Clinton supporters.

There is no room in our political arena for those who are so immature that they "take their toys & go home" if they loose.

Dem Unity Now!

...

Clinton has not set a good example as a good Democrat. She may be a force to be reckoned with but it is not a force for good, not for the Democratic Party anyhow. Republicans, on the other hand, think she's manna from heaven because of the division and animosity she's creating within the Democratic Party.

For Republicans, she's a gift from the Gods.

Howard Dean is a patriot.
John Edwards is a patriot.
Joe Biden is a patriot.
Christopher Dodd is a patriot.
Dennis Kuchinich is a patriot.
Mike Gravel is a patriot.
And yes, Barack Obama is a patriot.

Hillary Clinton is....??? You got me there.

The Clinton campaign has become my own little "Nightmare on Elm Street." Like Freddy she won't go away.

afford to loan her campaign MILLIONS????

She's been BUYING HER WAY IN since March.

She's still in it b/c she's a MULTI-MILLIONAIRESS MANY TIMES OVER, otherwise she'd have been out long ago like Edwards et al.

Which is, even though Obama is the presumptive nominee, for 10-15% of super vocal Obama supporters to hurl invective at the other candidate and insult the motives and intelligence of those who supported her.

Oh, and make sure those followers paint an approximate 200 out of 4000 possible pledges (this in a stretched-out race that includes caucuses) as some staggeringly large mandate that frees all his supporters from the need to respect other democrats.

Also remember other important tasks:

• Suggest race is the motive for any critique of Obama
• Suggest that Hillary should never have run in the first place.
• Suggest she belongs in jail, or kicked out of the party
• Use Faux News terms to describe her husband. (such as "Slick Willy")
• Suggest that the "rest of the party" isn't needed to win
• Take the occasional swipe versus Hillary's daughter
• Call Edwards "Mr. Haircut" as many times as convenient
• Deny that there's a possibility of a brokered convention
• Pretend that all the states Obama has won in the primary are ones he'll win in November
• Pretend that winning the general election is assured

Look, I'm no fan of Hillary, nor was Bill my favorite going into his presidency. When I first heard she was running my first thought was "I don't want the presidency traded between two families for twenty plus years - smacks too much of royalty."

But some very vocal Obama supporters on this board managed to do what I thought impossible: get me to sympathize with Hillary. I know DU isn't the "real world", but my apprehension is that it's an indicator species. Once there's a new administration it'd only take a sprinkling of gaffs from people like the ones I'm talking about to cripple Obama's effectiveness.

I'm all but on board with what the OP says about it being over. To be honest my hope is for a brokered convention that picks a unifying nominee. (I think this is the worst election we could have picked to take the curse off the presidency regarding race and gender bias) There's been such damage done by the Bushes that I think we need a bit of "Nixon goes to China" - i.e. a southern white male to tell the Republicans how much damage they've done. (Edwards, the second favorite choice of both Hillary and Obama supporters) Doesn't look like that'll happen.

Obama's campaign has held up better than I expected. My main worry now is how he gets to the presidency and whether he'll be allowed to be effective. Is it going to be that these one-percenters are allowed make sure that as many people as possible are alienated as possible? (As seems to be the mode around here.) The swagger is palpable, toxic and premature. They seem more interested in what has been denied to others rather than what is possible for Obama and the Democrats. These are the people that will give the MSM the club to beat Obama over the head with. They'll find one anyway, they'll do that to any non-corporate president, but why make it easy?

I ask Obama supporters to do a little (more effective) policing of their own.

Pipe up. Insist on civility.

Don't let the jerks among you define you (and Obama) to the rest of the party.

...and avert it, then what sort of politician, leader and negotiator is he?

It's not like the Republicans and corporations are going to roll over like kittens to have their bellies rubbed.

So desperate. Scary isn't it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Every candidate gets bashed by supporters of other candidates. It was no worse for Hillary than for Obama, Edwards and others. Maybe you don't remember the long, misleading campaign to paint Obama as a conservative that came from the Edwards and then Clinton campaigns. It happens in every election. You suck it up and move on.

She doesn't have any stake in this game, but she can certainly continue to lose if she chooses.

Howard Dean wanted the Democratic Party leading government.

For the Clintons, it's all about them.

Howard Dean taught me to be a fierce & proud Democrat, challenging his supporters to demonstrate their commitment every step of the way.
When he dropped out of the primaries, I scanned his every utterance and visage for his reactions to Kerry as our nominee.
Not only did he enthusiastically & genuinely embrace Kerry's candidacy, campaigning tirelessly for him, he put himself out there to his (Dean's) supporters, showing us why it was important to support Kerry.

This Clinton FUBAR candidacy is not even in the same universe.

We'll see if we don't have a repeat of the same this year.

with names, dates, places plus details like drug use. You just have to visit sites which must not be named at DU. Not to worry. While Obama is no choir boy and already admitted to drug use in his youth, he will not lose the nomination for being caught with a girl or boy, live or dead.

If he loses the nomination, it would be because of one or more problems from the systemic corruption in Illinois politics or with some of his associates or something hidden in his life story. How many problems producing damage similar to that by Rev. Wright can he weather and still be elected?

WilliamPitt, I think you're being too nice to her. She was willing to crash the entire Democratic Party out of spite. She must be "reckoned with," the same way we Floridians had to "reckon with" hurricanes and abusive grade school teachers and parents who kill their kids and then suicide, but respect is a whole different matter.

If there is a call for unity, someone will post some flamebait that is designed to look like it came from an Obama poster that is rude about Clinton and some one else will post something equally ignorant that is supposed to be from a Clinton supporter about Obama. Now the Freepers all have 1000 posts and name recognition so you can hardly tell them from anyone else, expect that their political ideology is warped. They have a real aversion to Noam Chomsky I have noticed and anyone that smacks of "red". They have some strange political heroes for avowed Democrats. And they get up in arms over anything that seems "high brow" or "pretentious". They will actually use that word, pretentious. It isn't something you read much from your average liberal blogger, even the ones who post all in little letters. It is more typical of your average right wing poster. Some people still give themselves away with topic choice like Vince Foster and words like Clintonista.

Real Obama supporters actually respond to what Sen. Obama says. And they mature over time. Their thinking changes. They are mostly cool people. The fake Obama supporters stick to the same splitter memes. Almost as if they have a job to do. No real poster is going to keep doing variations of the same thing over and over again. They would go crazy with boredom.

Reading DU these days, it really helps to have a degree in English Lit.

can't imagine why.

the dual problem of "excited newcomers" who in fact are timely trolls and longtime posters who have timely negative effects in certain types of posts especially at certain times. In the past it has been very difficult, even with wisdom and analysis trying to welcome the new people who always flood DU at epic moments and not discourage them with dark suspicion and wrangling.

It is very clear now that someone who acts and talks like a crooked RWer might as well be treated as one regardless of origin. It might be well worthwhile for moderators to launch an interesting research into the sudden surge in disruption throughout our now long history and especially wonder at the consistent and varied instigating negativity of some no matter the topic or crisis, whether disguised as candidate loyalty or protecting some ideal. That kind of track record should be enough for a warning. Whether the Clinton campaign, the campaign not the natural reaction of followers, sends waves of netweeds to neutralize their rivals or they are the usual GOP trolls, the Nance Greggs will always fault the same bad behavior correctly. That it becomes difficult to separate RW troll behavior from a normal worked up DUer is a necessary if regrettable test of character we all face individually and as a group. What does not kill us makes us stronger. Easier more positive days ahead pose less visible dangers such as relaxing the guard, drifting away, becoming arrogant in "power" and less aware of our common human weakness.

Our task is to crush the MSM stranglehold on national info and ideas, get the votes out and counted, volunteer in every way possible and pursue the progressive agenda into the extreme crises facing us in the future. If at the same time the so-called corporate leaning centrist wing hardens into a cancerous lump that would "retake" the party and purge the progressive as the left would never do, then remember where the nonsense began and was more easily defined as the enemy within, as ready to bring down the world for the sake of self as Bush himself.

Afraid to the point where if their nominee doesn't win the primary election, Mccain will win. Both sides are feeling that way, just my opinion. Both sides dont want Mccain to win and they cant see the forest for the trees, meaning the Democrats have to win and bickering over this and that is getting in the way.

what has gone down so far. The DLC in 2000, the DLC in 2004, and now 2008. They have made choices and have instructed candidates to do things that were losing tactics.

If more DUers cannot see the DLC hand in all the things that are happening, we're in trouble.

Hopefully, their era will be ending. In a sense of things, the 'people' are speaking.

My first problem with them is that they are nearly Republican in support of the war corporations. My mid problem is that they have been the ones to be invited on corporate tv and make nice and suppress truth and give milquetoast, jokey banter that goes nowhere. My last is they have lost the touch about staying in touch. In between first, mid, and last there are more.

There is one thing that has to be faced, the DLC raises the money from the big money holders and there might be unknown element here if those big money people no longer feel connected. Get ready for a rocky road if money and loyalty are not there for any of them who are middle of the road patriots who don't object that much to jumping into wars and agreements for the profits.

If the Clintons can't succeed in getting H. Clinton in and they are the DLC right now, there is going to be a test.

In the end, where will the DLC be? I don't understand why there are so many posts that just accept the DLC while all the barbs and arguments are leveled at specific people and not their club.

Because if you do then I wish there were more like you in charge, or leading, or considered a "thought-leader".

You don't do what I hope for, which is to make a good case for Obama, but you do the next best thing, and don't fall into the worst behavior; divisive bashing.

Oh, what was the "next best thing"?

You offer a cogent analysis of what the problem has been, and point out how much of the actual discussion does not address the real source that will persist past a particular candidate's campaign.

It's the first step to rolling up our sleeves and getting down to the real brass tacks, the nuts and bolts. We're doomed in the long run if we don't do a tear-down on the system that fails us in such an epic manner.

Bravo.

I give you the brevet rank of actual rational person who genuinely wants to find a solution.

thought I didn't support Gore. He's my number one choice (formerly and presently). Even though I referred to 2000 when writing about the DLC, I feel the DLC screwed Gore during the campaign with all the advice - wrong advice and they were completely involved in calling all the recount votes. The combination of Leibermans' actions and friendships in and with the DLC and Republicans turned out to be a disaster (even though I cheered when he was announced because the religion line was broken - obviously I didn't know much about him and his loyalties).

I wasn't for Kerry as I felt the DLC had struck again and picked him - perhaps three years in advance. I was euphoric the morning I voted for him - I really thought the Dems had won. I wore my I Voted sticker every minute until he gave up within about three hours after Edwards told us they were going to fight. Euphoria-depression in one television newsflash. As I time went by I understood it better as I learned even more about the DLC.

I told myself I couldn't vote for anyone who voted for the war. It was combined in a crazy filter criteria that I conconcted of how candidates partied and voted with and for war profiteering corporations and corporations determined to control us.

I swallowed and decided to support Edwards after I knew I couldn't have Gore, Kucinich, or Feingold.

I now support Obama, but am on a big wait and see. I hope he knows how honest and loyal he has to stay to the people.

When you say: "I hope he knows how honest and loyal he has to stay to the people."

This is a challenge. Some Obama supporters are creating a moral hazard by fawning and gushing over the guy.

How hard would any politician work to keep honest when they know there's this cadre of supporters for whom he can do no wrong?

Perhaps Obama can weather that with ethics intact.

But how about every single staffer, or associate of the administration?

It's often people who are overly satisfied in their own righteousness that cause the worst damage. Just look at some of the charmers from the present administration.

Like him or not, Obama should be on notice that he and his administration going to be carefully watched for ethical lapses, if only to assist him in keeping his own people honest.

I'm not sure American Democracy could take another 4-8 years of non-enforcement on top of the eight we've had, no matter how well intentioned, and remain vital.

the turn-out in this election.

Obama should think about all those self, system, and politically-disenfranchised voters who are coming out for him - and keep them up front in his heart and head every time he shakes the hand of a CEO or lobbyist.

If the system is meant to work, he might be the one. He might even be the guy to talk sense to the corporatists. If we can't take the path that will help us hold up our head in dignity against the push to make us third world and groveling for health help and jobs; if that division is perpetuated - we will lose all these new enthusiasts and hopefuls. It will be a grand loss.

Hurray and Amen. I hope people will read the wonderful Maureen Dowd column in the NYT yesterday to find out exactly why the Clintons would not accept VP spot with Obama. Even though the tone was satiric, the words were right on.

was more electable.

How about we just go with the more progressive candidate this time? Try that for once . . .

for not giving up. The broad is tenacious. But now it is over and the longer she stays, the more she harms her reputation. We're Democrats, we don't quit. But Hillary has to know that it's a wrap.

...words...and that's a shame...

Her tactics were despicable, her goals not all honourable, and her husband has past his sell-by date..

when the republicans get going.

Sad really that the polls are so close in the race of Obama and McCain at this juncture, and we only gave to pray that gas prices increase, the monkey does not attack Iraq, vast numbers of young voters go out and vote, and Obama does not wind surf to barely eek out a win.

Because that facts are that the real world does not reside in here, nor do any arguments that can sway the "average" American to vote for Obama in huge historically mind blowing numbers. After being savaged for what will be said and new suprises,(and there will be new ones),then the forehead smacking will occur that we once again will have snatched defeat in a way that will have to be defined in new terms of it's spectacularness.

I am not confident. The gloating period of Obama victory over a person that is more than capable and strong enough to run this country, and the wins she gas garnered from us racist, stupid, college educated Democrat types will be a short vacation in fantasy land when the shit really gets going.

He kicks Republican ass every day of the week. He took his talents and put them to good use for his party and his country. His 50-state-leave-no-safe-ground-for-the-bastards strategy was central to the Dem victories in 2006 and the upcoming victories in November. Rahm Emanuel took credit for 2006, but it's Dean that made it happen more than any one man (well, except maybe Bush unintentionally).

When people are at odds with the Holocaust Museum these days, you've really got to spruce up your satire a bit.

:(

So... not quite the same situation.

x(

At least in '04, when Dean and Clark were out, they were out, and they encouraged their supporters to come to terms with it and get behind the nominee. That's hard to do when your candidate is acting like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction.