Pelosi and Reid got nothing. The fight is going to Denver folks.

What's all this noise in the New York newspapers about how Pelosi and Reid are going to shut Hillary down next week?

Bullshit. The votes aren't cast until August, the nominee isn't picked until the votes are cast, and Hillary isn't quitting until the nominee is picked.

Even if Pelosi and Reid get every single last one of the superdelegates to swear on a bible that they are voting for Obama, it don't mean squat until the votes are cast and counted.

Even if Pelosi and Reid get every single last one of the superdelegates to swear on a bible that they are voting for Obama, Hillary has every single day between now and the convention to convince them to vote otherwise.

The "pledged delegates" are fair game too. People forget that they can change their vote, and Hillary has every single day between now and the convention to convince them to vote otherwise.

It's going to the convention to be settled on the floor. Not one frigging day sooner unless Obama wants to step down. Hillary has the right and she's going to use it.

Parties that take it to the convention ALWAYS LOSE!!!

1988 DEM - Jackson goes to the conventiion where his supporters demand he be given the Veep spot because he came in second. Dukakis loses

1984 DEM - Hart goes to the convention, Mondale loses.

1980 DEM - Kennedy takes it to the convention, Carter loses

1976 GOP - Reagan takes it to the convention, Ford loses.

1972 DEM - TOTAL WEIRDNESS at the Dem convention with new rules and non-porportional delegate allocation. Strange sessions starting in the morning and running through to the next morning. McGovern loses.

1968 DEM - McCarthy takes it to Chicago. Riots in the streets. Humphrey loses.

1964 GOP - Nelson Rockefeller takes it to the convention against Goldwater. Goldwater loses.

well before the convention and goes all out to GENUINELY support Obama.

1992 - Jerry Brown had not dropped out and was nominated. Clinton won on first ballot and the GE.
1960 - Stevenson took it to the convention. Kennedy won on first ballot and the GE.
1932 - no candidate had enough delegates and no one won on the first ballot. FDR won the next 4 GE's.

Because dare I say that this election has as much hanging on it as those last two certainly did.

My gut feeling is that we are going to be fine. But I felt like that in 2000 and 2004 as well.

The Clintons have been arguing lately that Bill didn't lock up the nomination until 1992, something the Times debunked at some length today.

But Taegan Goddard notes that Bill himself debunked it more tersely in his autobiography:

On April 7, we also won in Kansas, Minnesota and Wisconsin. On April 9, Paul Tsongas announced that he would not reenter the race. The fight for the nomination was effectively over.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Effectively_over.html#comments



And I think we can rule out your 1960 and 1932 (lol) examples. Let's keep this at leat in the last 40 years or so.

1968 GOP - Rockefeller took it to the convention - Nixon won.
1952 GOP - Taft took it to the convention, Eisenhower won.

record in the White House. No wonder the DLC thought they had to reinvent that party.
All they need are candidates who cooperate.

I really wish things had gone different in 1972. That was the first year I voted and went with my parent's choices because even though I was opposed to the war, and would have cast my first vote ever based on that alone, there was too much confusion and the Democrats did what they do so well. Lose.

selecting and uniting behind their candidates, mostly because our party has so much infighting going on in terms of what our message is supposed to be and what our ultimate goals are.

What a mad lot you are.

Then what?

wait... is that you, Joe?

Just to make damn sure that the party never rallies around the nominee and McCain becomes president.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If a pointless scorched earth policy works for you, go for it. Clinton is still not going to win. The math will not change.

Bastards, all.

from Clinton to Obama!!!!

NEXT!!!

We should just pick a random person at the convention every year

the delegates are human and can change their minds. lol

Okay, whatever. Provide a list of reasons why the delegates would jump ship from Obama to Clinton, thereby subverting the will of the voters who selected them.

I'll check back.

just want them to get off the fence. If they go for Clinton, so be it. Time for this to end, one way or the other, for the good of the party, regardless of which candidate gets the votes.

:eyes:

If there's any stealing to be done, it will be done by the Clinton camp.

If you can't see that, then you need to keep your ego out of this. Anybody can see how much damamge would continue being done if this nonsense was allowed to continue. The only people who want this to continue are hardcore Hillary supporters, McCain supporters and Fox News. That's a baaaad crowd to be with.

Hillary just comes up with the short end of the stick. It's not personal!

ANY excuse. That's okay. If that makes it better for you, take it!

because she's LOST MORE RACES. If anybody would be "stealing" anything, it would be Clinton managing to wrest the nomination away from the guy who has won by every metric.

And only in the last week of August will the Dems nominate and after a year of infighting we will all miraculously get together behind the nominee with only two months until the election. Sorry but the party needs more time to heal. It seems like Hillary and her more rabid supporters want Obama to lose so they can get another chance in 2012.

Have some frigging sympathy here, and put yourself in Hillary's shoes.

Alternative A:
If Obama wins in 2008, then Hillary can't run against him in 2012.
If Obama wins in 2012, then Hillary can't run against his VP in 2016.
That means that if Obama wins, Hillary might not get a shot again until 2020 or later.

Alternative B:
Obama steals the nomination from Hillary in 2008, but McCain wins the general election.
2012 Hillary runs for president against McCain.

Why can't people see that scenario B is clearly superior for Hillary. It's time for sanity to take over, and the party to just accept that they might have to lose this one for the sake of Hillary in 2012. Either that, or wake up and give her the nomination now, and unify behind her.

:sarcasm: ?

You got me too.

:rofl:

I was taking you seriously for a second.

a leader and manager. End of story. Hillary loses.

:blush: without reading the whole thing. The subject line is a tombstoning offense.

I'm still confused.

I have a better idea... for the next 4 years, if things go your way, you can be the one to tell the parents that their kid died fighting in Iraq. You can walk up to their door and tell them "I know this is hard but its the only way to get Hillary elected to end this war!."

Dont give me this bullshit about 12 years of a democrat in the white house being a bad thing because its NOT Hillary, you are on your own planet and I hope to god you are by yourself.

Don't ask anyone to have sympathy for Hillary Clinton. She is only out for herself.

Have some sympathy for Hillary? Are you fucking KIDDING me?? You'd rather have McCain win than Obama?? Get the fuck out of here.

ETA: An apology in advance if you were being sarcastic, because I can't imagine that anyone with a working organ inside their skulls would actually mean something like this.

Even if it's a joke, it's not funny.

You can thank Hillary for it

She's toast, dear. Stick the fork in.

How very elitist of you. I just eat mine with my hands.

:rofl:

Also... based on your logic, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any candidate... EVER... before the convention.



Obama will be running a full General Election campaign come Wednesday... and Hillary will be out of cash... and won't be able to buy herself onto a news cycle.


Of COURSE it is not "official" until the convention..... but by August, Hillary will be a distant memory ... or a running joke.... or most likely both.

And she's got enough pull to make it stick.

If Hillary is dedicated to take it to the floor, there is nothing in the party rules that lets Pelosi or anybody else stop her.

She can continue campaigning all the way to the convention vote.

people who have as much pull as she does in the party right now. She's also the convention chair.

You think she can't find a way to freeze out the Clinton campaign before they disrupt the convention? I'm no fan of Nancy's but she's a skilled, tough politician.

How does Pelosi stop Hillary from traveling the nation taking advantage of every Obama misstep to press the idea that she is more electable?

I think I found the nuclear option.

Under rule VI of the convention rules, the Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee has total and final authority over determining who is "presidential candidate".

The chair could simply rule that Hillary is no longer a candidate, and thereby shut her out of the nominating process.

Now that would be playing nasty.

VI. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES
The term “presidential candidate” herein shall mean any person who, as determined by the National
Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, has accrued delegates in the nominating process and
plans to seek the nomination, has established substantial support for his or her nomination as the
Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States, is a bona fide Democrat whose
record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively
demonstrates that he or she is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the
United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith.

Pelosi cannot rule that Hillary violates any of those provisions. This rule does not give her the power to simply point at Hillary and state "You are not a Democrat." Hillary has accrued delegates in the nominating process and
plans to seek the nomination, has established substantial support for his or her nomination as the
Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States, is a bona fide Democrat whose
record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively
demonstrates that he or she is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the
United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith.

The chairperson makes the determination. There is no appeal.

"that he or she is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party"

Chairperson: I hereby determine that Clinton's continued campaign in opposition of Obama's overwhelming delegate count is unfaithful to the welfare of the party. Hillary, buh-bye.

If they are willing to play that dirty Hillary would have no recourse. Security, escort her out of the building.

is a bona fide Democrat whose
record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively
demonstrates that he or she is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the
United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith.

I believe she will participate and abide by the rules and outcome of the convention. Not even Pelosi would try to say that Hillary has not demonstrated that she is a Democrat. Pelosi is the Chairperson, not the Queen.

take her out of the race:

<<Democratic candidate for the Office of the President of the United States, is a bona fide Democrat whose
record of public service, accomplishment, public writings and/or public statements affirmatively
demonstrates that he or she is faithful to the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party of the
United States, and will participate in the Convention in good faith.>>

"...the interests, welfare and success of the Democratic Party..." is the key phrase. In spite of her denials and those of her minions, she has been working against the Democratic Party for months. Her dirty tricks, from the declaration that the GOP candidate was better for the POTUS than the frontrunner of her own party, to all the kitchen sink tactics and even to drawing out the campaign to assure a GOP victory, all show that she is working hard to make sure the Dems lose this election. All for her personal gain.

Even if her supporters can't see it, the rest of the party can and they are tired of it. Madam Chairperson has more than enough evidence to not only declare her campaign dead, but to have her stripped of committee positions in the Senate.

But what I suspect is that Nancy will ring up her network and enlist the party heavy hitters to inform the Clintons that it's over.

All the heavy hitters in the party can call and tell her it is over and she can tell them all to pound sand.

They can't exactly flip it off and still expect to operate in it, can they?

She can stomp her feet and hold her breath but there is no mechanism for forcing her out before the convention.

make the rules, they don't appeal to them.

If the party establishment is against Clinton continuing and she does anyway, that's pretty much political suicide. The Democrats are on the verge of regaining power after forty years or so. It's hard to believe that even two Clinton egos are going to get in the way of that.

Seriously, I do think Clinton is capable of it, but I don't think it will go down that way. :shrug:

Then everyone else can make her wish she hadn't...

Why do you think that super delegates and/or pledged delegates will be/can be swayed by Clinton staying longer in the race? It's a lose-lose situation for her. She either drops out now and sulks back to the senate, or she stays in, loses even more support (and superdelegates) and still loses the nomination anyway. Not to mention she doesn't have the funding to keep her campaign going unless she continues giving it her own money.

Hillary will be out by the end of next week.

That's not to say there won't be votes for her at the Convention, but she will no longer be any more of a contender than Kucinich or Gravel.

David

Pelosi and Reid cannot force hillary to step down. What you do not know is whether she will choose to excersie this "right" or not. Let's take your position (if I'm assuming it to be correct) which is that hillary will take this to the convention because she wants to make obama lose so that she can run in 2012.

The problem is, the "I told you so" argument doesn't work if you're actively seen as doing EVERYTHING you could to see obama's collaspe. Nowwe can argue that hillary may have already cost obama victory in the G.E. but regardless, the end of the primaries is the LAST time that hillary can still not be seen as doing EVERYTHING to stop obama. She has ambition, but she has carefully planned out things years in advance to help her in the future (although some of those things, like voting for the IWR backfired) And if you think voters will have short memories, you may be underestimating how they may be feeling the effects of the McCain presidency, on a daily basis (think Nader in 2000, vs. his candidacy in 2004 or even now). The only way to be certain is to simply wait and see. You'll go broketrying to reliably predict human behavior IMO, especially hers.

and picking a VP all in that same time frame!

thank you hillary! you truely are a good republi... i mean democrat!

And she'll be a laughingstock. If thats what she wants....

and the "rabble, rabble" episodes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnZ3qzIwmlw

Before it even gets out of the harbor.

It is obvious to all but the most dedicated Hillary supporters that the race is over. There is no point to dragging out the deviciveness any longer, unless one is wanting to deliberately sabotage the GE this fall. That would essentially be what Hillary would be doing by taking this to the convention. If she did so, it would certainly be a sign that she's only thinking of herself, not the welfare of the party or the country. She would be directly responsible for foisting McCain, a weak candidate in a year that favors the Dems, upon us for four years.

Sadly, there are many of her supporters that are currently egging her on to do just that, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and putting Hillary ahead of the good of the party and the country. My question for them is not just whether or not they're really Democrats, but whether they're even caring human beings. From my POV, anybody who's willing to insure a McCain victory by rooting for a floor fight has absolutely no empathy or caring for anybody or anything outside themselves and their own personal devotion to Hillary.

Doesn't he sue that all the time?

From: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8583.html

They go into the convention with a signed pledge to support a particular candidate and have been selected by the electorate to do so. So while it may be possible to change candidate, I would bet that not a single one would. These people were selected because of their loyalty to one candidate or another.

The SD's on the other hand have no such "pledge" nor do they have the same level of loyalty.

However, I concede that technically you appear to be correct.

But they could still come under immense pressure to switch, despite being "pledged".

can go to Denver, slit their political throats in front of everyone and politically bleed to death. The death of the DLC. Fabulous idea, I love it! Meanwhile, Obama will have had 3 months as the presumptive nominee, campaigning in all corners of the country, and will be ready to go for the fall!

the most rabid clinton supporters chomping at the bit to agree with you!

Well...

I am a Obama supporter. I believe Hillary is making an ass out of herself and should have stepped down weeks ago.

But I do fully expect her to take this to the convention. Anyone listening to her recently should understand that is what she is going to do.

"neither Sen. Obama nor I will have reached that magic number when the voting ends on June the 3rd. So our party will have a tough choice to make. Who’s ready to lead our party on the top of the ticket? Who is ready to defeat Sen. McCain in the swing states?"

In other words, the delegate count after June 3rd doesn't matter. There is still a "decision" to make. That decision will be made in August, in Denver.

That is completely what I expect.

...same thing too. So did Huckabee.

Huckabee could have continued, by justifying that he wins "ignorant, white, Evangelical freaks" and McCain
can't woo them, and "we need that group to win, in November!"

Most candidates know a thing or two about class and dignity. Most candidates know that it's not just
about them, and their desire to "go all the way to the convention." It's also about the party, and
our GE fight. It's about ending the war and restoring our democracy.

It's not just about Hillary and whatever the hell her little heart desires.

Gee. Even Huckabee and Romney didn't need this stuff explained to them.

We're supposed to be impressed that Hillary can't see anything beyond the end of her own nose?

...PERIOD.

Are you serious?

If Obama loses in November, that only proves that Hillary was right all along in insisting she was the only electable candidate, and therefore proves the party screwed up by not nominating her.

with someone taking a machete to your knees for 9 months while your true opponent remains untouched.

Kinda like farting in the wind for Ms. Flick after that.

but not this time, I will go ahead and bookmark it so I can bitch slap you with it next week.

I plan to bookmark it so I can say "I told you so" in August.

So, you get ignored from now on.

Goodbye forever.

I shant miss you.

So, you get ignored from now on.

Goodbye forever.

I shant miss you.

The premise of this post is like smoking rock.

Howard Dean once said "When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values -- so you keep losing."

I hope to God Almighty that this epitaph is etched in letters five inches high and three inches deep on Hillary Clinton's tombstone...the political version of which she is unwittingly shaping the granite block for, as we speak.

Hillary was blinded by her New York ambition, but she will ultimately see the results of her hubris by having her Senate seat taken from her by a Republican in four years.

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.

I am personally enjoying watching her squander her family fortune on a losing campaign that is now fed only by her insurmountable ego. I also love watching her wild-eyed, arm-flapping sycophants get fleeced in the process.

The only thing that really sucks is the fact that she's got a lot of good-hearted but disillusioned people who've worked for her -- who once believed she was the real deal -- who will never see their paychecks or their invoices settled.

Big whoop.

Historically, if it goes to the convention, we lose.

And then the party will split between those who believe Hillary's conduct knee-capped Obama (and I would agree) and those who believe that Hillary ran a whiter-than-white campaign which had no impact on teh GE.

because she will lose, and lose hard.

Even if she continues after Obama has secured the nomination, she will quickly find all her sources of funding gone. She will find herself on page 12 of most newspapers. She will be lucky if the press even still followers her around.

after the SD's take Obama over 2025.
Let her stand on a soap box in the middle of Times Square
or Main Street, Anytown, USA and campaign all she wants.
No one will pay any attention. Not Obama, not McSame, not
the voters or the media (unless it's as one of those
"strange but true" filler pieces like water skiing squirrels
or flag pole sitters).
She will become a pathetic caricature and a laughing stock, at best.
At worst, she will hand the election to the Republican'ts
and set back the cause of feminism for a generation.

If that is what you really want, go for it.
Help her destroy herself by continuing to support her campaign.

Have a nice day.

How pathetic.

And if Hillary follows this plan, what a sad legacy she leaves behind.

will anyone notice?

:shrug:

if not longer. They can stop any of them from proposing amendments, getting any support for their bills, etc. In a very real sense, Pelosi and Reid can affect their re-election chances.

she might have to say goodbye to the senate too

So, are you saying "its her turn"?

The fact is that if this goes as far as the convention, we're going to have to make a lot of ground up in terms of the GE. McCain is already campaigning, our presumptive nominee can't.

I respected Senator Clinton for many years, spent countless hours defending her to various freeper relatives and now I am so disillusioned by this woman who will do anything to gain power because she seems to think that the presidency is hers by divine right.

I'm not terribly excited by Obama either, but frankly, he seems to be less interested in personal power than Senator Clinton.

depending on how things go.

...to the convention. What a stupid OP. Does he honestly think that Hillary will succeed in taking Obama delegates? Does he honestly think that Obama will not do the same to her?

Which candidate is most likely to be successful in such a game?

My prediction: If Hillary takes it to the convention she'll lose by 1000 votes.