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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:52 PM
Original message
Obama knows he is fighting a losing battle on the photos
However by taking up the cause the republicans can not use the deaths of soldiers (killed by the inflamed passions the Bush/GOP sponsored torture and mistreatment will create) against him and the Democrats. Unfortunately every President has to play the political game. Obama knows that these heinous photos could increase the number of troops killed. By fighting to keep them out of the publics eye the only one the Repukes will be able to blame will be themselves for doing such terrible things.
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madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. I was thinking this might be for cover.
It is politics, we can't forget that.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of this controversy.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bad wars kill troops, not photos /nt
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I think you have over simplified things
to the point of not allowing a proper understanding of the situation. The US is fighting insurgency wars. In that type of warfare the hearts and minds of the indigenous people are critical. Pictures of US committed atrocities will only hurt the war efforts. While Iraq is reaching a point that the US can exit, Afghanistan has sadly become a war of necessity rather than choice. If the US pulled out now, the Taliban and Al Qaeda would be in a much stonger position to hurt the US.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Yeah, the pictures will send them over the edge.
Not the years of bombing and indiscriminate killing or wholesale destruction of their country and their lives. Hell, this will pull back the veil of them thinking they live in Shangri La.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Every little bit helps (or in this case hurts)
there is no one thing that will win hearts and minds, it's a wide variety of things including how our nation takes care of our prisoners. There are plenty of other things that need to be addressed, but that doesn't proclude this issue from being handled intelligently. At least I would hope you agree.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Winning hearts and minds left the station about six years ago.
The Iraqi people know they are treated worst then animals, showing some pictures of what is right if front of their face shouldn't have much more effect with the feelings thay have for the US already. This is just a CYA for the powers that be. I find it a little odd that bombing them wasn't a concern but showing pictures are.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. so you think the photos will NOT create great anger in the middle east?
interesting slant on reality.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. mkultra, the people in the middle east KNOW about this type of thing from personal
experience. They are the ones who have intimate knowledge of what we have been doing to our suspects and prisoners for years. It is WE AMERICANS who are ignorant and who need to get angry.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. while i agree we are ignorant
I don't think these photos would go over quietly in the ME. These photos would become the new sounding board for anti-american sentiment in the ME. While you may or may not think that is fine, i do not. Peace in the ME is a hard road in this would not be counter productive.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Well, here's an idea. President Obama will more than likely be told by the Supremes that
he cannot keep these photos under wraps, so he will have no choice but to release them.

Then our President will call a press conference and explain to THE ENTIRE WORLD how despicable these photos are, how immoral and illegal those acts are, and how, under his watch the United States will NOT ALLOW anything like that to happen to anyone we capture. And, he will ensure that the AG has all of the resources of our government at his disposal to get to the bottom of these evil acts and prosecute those who authorized them.

Bully pulpit for the world, including the muslim world.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. And the world will demand that the photos be shown.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And rightly so. Especially so for us Americans to see them. Otherwise, we will never
recognize the degree of evil that has been perpetrated in our names.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
34. You wrote:
Afghanistan has sadly become a war of necessity rather than choice. If the US pulled out now, the Taliban and Al Qaeda would be in a much stonger position to hurt the US.

I disagree. The growth of the Taliban in Pakistan is the result of the US war in Afghanistan, not the cause of this war.

Moreover, the war in Afghanistan is (at this point) a war of choice, not necessity. Afghanistan currently represents zero threat to the U.S.

Here's an article that reflects my view:

http://tonykaron.com/2009/05/13/the-writing-on-the-wall-for-obamas-af-pak-vietnam/

- B
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. How about the 100 civilians killed in Afghanistan the other day?
We keep doing it without it seems much concern for the impact to our troops or the hearts and minds of the citizens of Afghanistan.

It is such a phoney excuse.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. we have another chess-game theorist here
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I think his strategic mind...
as evidenced by his chess and poker playing...
totally plays into his style of politics.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. There's so much going
on behind the scenes, that the President who we elected is working on.. that these armchair strategists at DU know nothing about.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. It became pretty obvious even in the primaries that Obama was playing chess...
while many others were playing checkers. Or tic-tac-toe.

And, I don't mean his primary opponents.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. and we see that offends your checker playing mind.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. he should just drop the whole torture thing.
give a press conference and say cheney is right.

that way the republicans won't have anything to use against him.

that's why we elected him right? to spend 4 years not giving the republicans anything to use against him...
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I voted for him because he was intelligent
and capable of getting things done WITHOUT letting the right wingers score easy victories. I appreciate that this isn't a fantasy world where real world considerations can be ingored in favor of blind idealism. In the end Obama will see the right thing is done. He is just going to do it in a matter that ensures the Dems are not quickly bounced from power. Perhaps you might spend some time learning about what haappened to the last 2 Democratic President and the Congress during their terms.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. I'm glad you're not running things and
the President is.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. It also avoids the inevitable claim that he is releasing them for political purposes.
I think the pics will come out, most likely during Congressional hearings. I think Obama knows that, too.

I could, of course, be wrong.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Or the pictures will come out when the judge in the case denies the current APPEAL which
is what is happening right now, not BLOCKING or ORDERING as many on DU are claiming. As with the last batch of photos, the Obama admin was opposed to their release, but the ruling ordered in favor of the ACLU. My inclination is to believe this case will follow the same course of action. Obama is working the game right now and acting very politically for any number of reasons, but in the end the decision is not and will not be his, but rather a judge's in deciding whether or not these pictures are released.

This is not slamming you, I just found your post a convenient place to respond in this manner. ;)
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That's pretty much my point. Obama knows he can't win in court
which is why I feel he is going through the motions. I don't think he would have made the effort if he thought there was a chance for victory.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. There is no reason these photos would be considered any differently than the previous
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:17 PM by Parker CA
batch that were released. This same outrage happened a month or so ago and was squelched when the ACLU prevailed in their efforts. I have zero reason to believe this outcome will be any different except in the reasoning the WH is giving for their appeal.

Obama is gaming his position, no doubt, but these ideas that he is "blocking" the release or "ordering" what can be released are false.

I think we're on the same page, NJ.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Agreed.
I think he knows what the eventual outcome will be. And, to be honest, I think it's best if he's not the "decider" - if the decision is made by the court system, as before, it's going to be much more difficult for the Republicans to claim partisanship on Obama's part.

They're already claiming that the whole torture investigation is politically motivated, of course. Allowing the judge to make the decisions somewhat undercuts that stance.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Yep. I agree completely, Twilight. ;)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yup.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. REMINDER: The President has a calculating, deliberate and analytical mind.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:03 PM by lamp_shade
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes he does. Unfortunately that is quite disconcerting to those that fail to follow
his complex ideas and plans.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. It baffles me that there are some who just don't think he's very smart.
:banghead:
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Well, there's that, plus we tend to kneejerk react to absolutely everything...
without considering context and/or the big picture. There's obviously much more going on than "OMG, IT'S A COVERUP!"

As other posters have indicated, the outcome is very likely going to be the same as it was with the other pics - they will come out - but by making the courts decide, Obama counteracts the inevitable claim that the investigations, etc., are politically motivated.

At least that's my opinion at the moment....
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. agreed
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. its the last vestiges of bigotry in the demcratic party
you know, Hillary called them her "blue collar" voters.
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traxster Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't believe the photos should be released.
We have already seen alot of what they have done. I'm afraid that people will start to think negatively of the troops when it really was the leadership who made this all occur. But, by releasing the photos, it will have the result of making people think less about the policies that perpetuated that culture.
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traxster Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. duplicate
Edited on Wed May-13-09 03:22 PM by traxster
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yeah...its lose - lose to a degree
The photos will come out eventually, but the President doesn't want the fingers pointed at the WH when the inevitable propaganda use of the photos appears. Releasing them will not change any minds about the crimes we committed under Bush. But refusing to release them puts in the bad position of appearing to cover up those crimes. Tough call indeed.

It also leaves him open to the easy charge of being a coward….but I don’t believe he is a coward.
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
27. I fail to see the upside to releasing these photos.
I just agree with the President on this
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Uh, excuse me. Our torturing and murdering and illegally invading is NOT NEWS to Iraqis.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. I am listening to him on TiVo delay and his explanation makes sense to me
:shrug:
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
31. Part of me thinks it's a tactic...a sly one.
Wait until folks are clamoring to see them. Get everyone interested at what you're holding and THEN release them "caving in to the will of the people".

We'll see if I'm anywhere near right.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
38. I think he also is going to make a serious attempt at re calibrating US-Muslim relations
in his speech coming up in Egypt and doesn't want to have it side tracked with this controversy.

If he is able to establish a new perception among Muslims then that outcome will overcome the timing of the photos (which still could be released by a decision of the court).
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. "could increase the number of troops killed"
Could keeping our troops in Iraq increase the number of troops killed?
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