If Bush would have used the same excuses as Obama, this place would go nuts!

If Bush would have held back photos and used the same excuses Obama did this place would destroy his excuses.

Quite a double standard here!

n/t

do nothing but inflame an already shitty situation. Didn't you clowns get enough of the "nature" of war/nationalistic hoseshit...and Abu Ghraib's shame years ago...We ALREADY know that it all stinks...why conjur up more animosity...AND re-kindle the radical Islamic fervor??? Do you not think that those images will be used to fuel more hatred??? Freedom of Information notwithstanding...I don't get it, I swear. I certainly don't need to see what evil has been done to these folks...I just want us to get the hell out of there!

And that's the point, my friend.

Do you really believe that the Muslim world doesn't know all about our war crimes? They see corpses and burnt children on al-Jazeera every fucking day. The torture photos are being withheld from US.

We are in a media age that is fueled in the straight-to-Internet video phenomenon. What with the ongoing commitment to Iraq and Afghanistan it is a good idea not to offer the other side an opportunity to recruit, aside from the fact that these were abuses committed under the previous criminal regime.

A) These photos are of abuse in many other venues -- not just Abu Graib.
B) These photos prove that the illegal torture was bush admin. POLICY not just some "bad apples"
(and GOD DAMN YOU, OBAMA for making the inference that it was a few "bad apples" -- you sounded just like bush!)
C) The more evidence out in public, the better chance that the war criminals in the bush admin. will be prosecuted.
D) The Federal Courts said they have to.
E) He said he would release them.
F) I'm getting sick and tired of Obama sucking up to the corporate capitalist class and the war mongers and this latest flip-flop is a political ploy so he won't piss off the generals and the far right (he thinks).

That's NOT the kind of "change" I believe in...

:o

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Greenwald nailed it.

Unless his acolytes were complaining about his awful promise two weeks ago to release the photos, they better not be supporting his sudden concern for "national security" now.

He's screwed we the people with an illegal wiretapping flip flop and now with a torture flip flop. How can anyone claim to trust him with a straight face.

Hypocrites are hypocrites no matter what site they post on.

Bush I would have thought he is hiding them to protect HIMSELF, not us our our soldiers.

There's a huge difference between the motives of a narcissistic, immature criminal who would conceal the photos to stay out of trouble and those of an honest, trustworthy leader (who unlike Bush has no personal skin in this game) who would conceal the photos to keep soldiers safe.

The truth is already out; he feels the photos would be inflammatory. I trust that he made the decision based on the troops' best interests, not his own. There's all the difference in the world.

Not really just the fact that he flip-flopped on it but the statements he is using that they do nothing but reaffirm the things a few people did long ago (or some such phrasing) as if they are not more proof that requires an ongoing investigation leading to prosecution of an ex president and vice president along with an ex secretary of defense and an ex secretary of state, just to name a few that it looks more and more like they will be allowed to skate on this egregious crime. I do not want anything done that will put our troops in more danger but as Rachel said "sounds pretty familiar" sort alike an echo from presidents past. (and not too far past )

Obama said it would further imflame anti-american sentiment in the world. This is not only true but incredible sounds judgment considering our soldiers in the field. Christ people, pull your heads out.

yes he did say that ,(he has said a lot of things) but anyone who thinks they are not already "inflamed" is naive for sure, he also said in one statement that it had to do with national security...same old bugaboo as * used .. have to have some boogy-man involved .. Truth is they are already pretty well pissed at us, the only thing that will get the rest of the world on our side even a little bit is to quit lying and flip flopping and be open and honest "transparent" as he so eloquently stated repeatedly in his campaign speeches.. We need to investigate and prosecute the war criminals who ran this country into the ground for 8 long long years...nothing else will do it...Fact is not a lot of "investigating" to do with dick head on world wide television admitting to having authorized torture... at least * has had enough sense to hide out.

Now having said all this I still think Obama is the best we have had in a long time.. He has what it takes to bring us out of this dark period we have been in and regaining our national reputation somewhat, it will never be what it once was but maybe we can earn back a modicum of respect for doing the right thing now.

I am feeling like the girl who discovers her husband is married to 3 other women, you know kind of played, betrayed, and lied to.
Which leads me to the question, are we loyal democrats victims of the political elite.... AGAIN?:hurts:

After this slap in the face on the torture photos, I will never trust another smooth talking politician again.:banghead:

No matter how much it is promoted as change, it still remains the same. SSDD

by some "rogue soldiers"- I think they were planned to show the world and the enemy that America is tough bad-ass and to gloat over its power. The exact thing that the Geneva Conventions prohibit. The Bush** administration wrote off those conventions as quaint. The republicans even referred to the sexual humiliation shown in the photos as "like a college prank". Now, like a lot of other things, Obama is stuck with the problem.

I trust Barack Obama. That's the difference. Bush is a liar, has proved himself to be a liar over and over, and I would never, ever, take him at face value. Plus, Bush had Dr. Evil Cheney lurking in the background whispering in his ear, and now we know for sure, doing things behind his back. I actually, really do believe President Obama talked to Generals, his staff, Michelle probably, and made the best decision. Barack does things in a "clean" way, as clean as you can do them in the slime that smirky and snarly left behind.

Why do we (are we told to) blindly trust? I call 'em as I see them and this one stinks.

If Obama was hiding photos of something that happened on HIS watch, then there would be equivalence.


This is the equivalent of Bush hiding photos of wrong-doing by Clinton.

And, that would be okay to you?

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. No excuses.

The US Attorney scandal actually began on Clinton's watch, with the manipulation of the DOJ during Whitewater, and previously when he was Governor of Arkansas. He laid the groundwork because he effectively demonstrated that it could be done.

Now we have Hilary Clinton and Secretary of State, part of the same crew that laid the groundwork years ago. It stinks.

This is not acceptable. There's no good excuse for this whatsoever I don't care who is doing it.

until then, its whether I give the benefit of the doubt to my sainted mother or Charles Manson.

I've heard two different things about the pics: 1. they are more of what we have already seen and 2. (Sy Hersh's version) they are worse than my nightmares. What do we gain by releasing either? We've seen the memos, we know what was authorized, I am not much interested in sending more Lindy Englands to jail for what Cheney pushed. If you are not going after Cheney, why humiliate our country further?

We don't publish gruesome photos of murder victims or traffic accident victims for a reason. They are VERY disturbing. What do we gain?

Isn't that a violation of a nations sovereignty, even though there is no formal declaration of war? Oh thats right, it's Bush's Global War on Terror, so there are no euphemisms for Sovereign nations anymore. Wake up -- It's a fraud.

U.S. bombs Pakistan, 18 reported dead
Air strikes against suspected Al Qaeda hideouts are first since Obama sworn in

Jan 23, 2009 02:04 PM
Comments on this story (29)
Chris Brummitt
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Suspected U.S. missiles killed 18 people on the Pakistan side of the Afghan border today in the first such attacks on the militant stronghold since President Barack Obama took office, Pakistani officials said.

different.

detail about something that happened during WWII is never enough- and it doesn't seem to make a difference in preventing many other worse atrocities that have happened since. So what have we gained from that? Being constantly reminded of something everyone is well aware of. Oh, wait, because this is the teflon country with saintly intentions to rule the world, lead by smooth talkers, it's all so different. Different set of rules. Let's not make the US look any worse than it already is. Please. Why not? Our leaders- us, who accept them as leaders- are guilty of supporting these practices every time we try to hide them. Yes, it's embarrassing and shameful. If there's fear that the newest bogeymen will use high tech communications to spread these images to cause more harm, what's stopping them from inventing such images otherwise with the same tools?

I don't trust anyone at this point (DADT, not allowing single payer in the discussion, etc....)

we'll see the pics. I think I understand why Obama is appealing. First, he's at least begun to ease tensions between the US & the ME. Second, he's due to make a speech in Egypt in a bit over 2 weeks to further amicable relations. Revealing those pics now would do nothing but damage if not destroy his efforts.

If the appeals court (or SCOTUS) deneies the appeal, I believe the best way to reveal the pics would be during an investigation into the Shrub Admin. criminal activities. At that time, they would support the claim against ShrubCo, and support the efforts of the US to punish the perps!

That's what's so disturbing. I don't understand. Why? I'm very confused. The 'protect the troops' argument is moot. They're already in the worst kind of danger as long as they're stuck in a war zone. Our 'enemy' knows Bush used soldiers and contractors as proxies in torture, rape and murder. Photos may make it all fresh again, but they aren't going to change what was done in our name. It's up to us. We need to stand against torture, and prosecute those who tried to subvert international law.

This must be one of those "Obama is so much smarter than we mere mortals that we must just trust him for our puny human brains could never understand his true motives for doing this" moments. :sarcasm:

And those moments seem to be coming with more frequency.

He has a secret plan...

Gently toasted on a Politically correct fire made from the original copy of the Constitution.

This could very well be the tipping point where the people that haven't seen the truth already, will finally realize that we are in the midst of a Hostile Corporate Takeover.

It's not going down easy.

recommend.

I really am.

between the two.

not who would've authorized torture.

Had Bush been concerned about the troops, he would never have authorized torture. He wouldn't have sent them to Iraq without cause etc.

... highly unlikely.

We're going to continue to detain indefinitely.

did when Bush said that, I think. We were actually pretty darn used to everything Bush said regarding national security and excesses/crimes in its name by about, oh, '06. Quite a few people are happy to slam Obama thoroughly for this, which is of course their right, as myopic as it may be.

and being the keepers of the One and True Way,

More nuts is required.

More threads required.

The one yesterday was up to 400 by the time I left in the afternoon

I don't know what's been going on here in the few weeks I haven't been, but I don't like it. Reading the archived posts is making me sick. Losing most of my friends to ill advised TS's? Even sicker. What the hell DU?

I WOULD be going nuts.

I knew who Bush was before he did any of those things. I hated that turd before 2000. But I don't fully know Obama, but what I do know about him gives me great assurance that he will do us right.

I will admit that I thought the same of Nancy Pelosi. I've since lost my patience with her, but am still not sure what is going on with her.

I am saying that there is doubt with Obama, but not certainty like with Bush. It's like being stuck with a needle by a physician versus someone who just wants to poke. I have faith. But it's guarded.

who 'monitored' the torture sessions, or a regular physician you speak of?

being outraged. But because their lord and savior, Obama, is the one withholding the pictures suddenly it's different.

It would be really nice if more people had ideals and beliefs that were consistent, instead of changing their beliefs and politics based on who is in office. Politics shouldn't be about changing the rules and standards based on which team is holding the ball or which quarterback is cuter. x(

people bothered to understand the opinions of others instead of attributing any and every disagreement to the old right-wing canard of "well, obviously they only think that because they're followers of the Obamessiah."

Mostly it's people attributing superhuman intellect and logic to Obama, and telling us that we should wait, wait, wait before we look to see what he's doing and draw any conclusions about what it means.

We have people who comment mostly on his photo ops and repeatedly proclaim how proud they are that he's our president. Isn't he so Dreamy!

Other than insisting that we should all wait and have faith in Obama, without presenting any evidence for why we should do so.

The adults are the ones who are looking at what Obama is doing from day one and taking it seriously, questioning it, and asking questions. We can only humor children for so long with their teenage infatuation. :eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8406505&mesg_id=8406505

Please, do. Me, I haven't seen anyone saying we need to have blind faith, nor have I seen anyone telling anyone to shut up, nor that we shouldn't analyze the situation. I have seen people saying that we shouldn't leap to premature conclusions, which is always reasonable in politics. The most we can ever say, until a bill is passed into law, is "it seems that Obama is going to do X."

There have indeed been many situations in which outrage *was* premature. Recall the furor over the anticipated lack of COLA increases in Social Security, until it became apparent that the reason there will likely be no COLA increase is that there will likely be no increase in the cost of living due to the economic stallout. Recall the repeated complaints that Obama was failing to address an issue in a bill, until Obama announced that he was just putting the issue in a bill that better suits the issue at hand. I don't see why "wait until the information is in before drawing a final conclusion" is offensive. It just means that it is wise to temper one's analysis of the issues with one's recognition that one's information is incomplete.

It's a lot like deciding to by only things made and grown in America. It is so difficult these days, that you will spend more money in gas trying to accomplish that goal. Most give up, because it is too inconveneint, but if you stick to it, you have a defineite sense of pride at being able to stay ethically focused, even if it costs you something.

Most people are ill equipped to do anything like that. Thats why the Credit Card companies have americans by the balls.

That's the difference.

I have a major problem with the premise that the credibility of a claim depends solely on whose mouth it comes out of.

LOL, credibility of information doesn't in large part depend on its source? Come on, that's utterly ridiculous.

Of course it matters that it's Obama saying it rather than Bush.

That means that two different things came out of the different mouth.
Who to believe?

That is really sad.

He's a politician. Open your eyes.

He's giving all of our money to corporations without any strings attached and driving us farther into debt than even Bush did. We're not seeing any benefit from any of that debt.

Instead of turning back NAFTA and free trade, as he promised in his campaign, he has embraced free trade and he's now trying to expand free trade to Panama, a tax shelter country where the wealthy hide their money. That will make Panama's tax laws privileged so that the tax shelters can't be challenged.

He has broken his campaign promises to the LGBT community. All of them.

He has embraced corporate America and done nothing for middle class and poor America.

It doesn't make any difference which party he is. He's a politician. His word needs to be evaluated sceptically and only in reference to what he really does. He has already shown repeatedly that his pretty words alone are worthless.

You think he is trying to hoodwink you? I am surprised you can post this stuff here. :shrug:

The democratic party was here before him, and will be here long after him. He's not the party. He's not immune to criticism.

Take a good hard look at what he's doing, at all the campaign promises to us he has broken. He's not earning our trust.

:eyes:

What am I going to do, post a polite suggestion that he'll never read that perhaps he should stop breaking his promises and stop giving all our money to corporations?

Be real.

You might have faith in what he's doing, but some of us are actually looking and seeing.

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Our economy is so downhill it will look like it's uphill if it even levels out a little.

Nine Trillion handed over to Wall Street - which is $ 30 K for every single man woman and child.

And the Wall St firms that get the money know no one is watching too carefully.

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that the president is breaking promises and giving our treasury to corporations? And you're amused that people are upset about this?

:wtf:

That's juvenile on many levels.

it's funny watching people running around with their hair on fire for no reason.

and 9 times out of 10 its coming from people who never had any use for him anyways...

What do you consider "no reason?"

His giving trillions of dollars to banks without any strings attached is no reason?

His creating a brand new class of stock just so the government would have no control over any company we bail out, so they can continue to do business as usual, is no reason?

His hiring of Goldman Sachs people in all the top jobs in the Treasury Department, and corporate people in top spots in other departments is no reason? Especially after promising an ethical administration with no revolving door?

His total reversal on free trade, now supporting it instead of opposing it as promised is no reason? And pushing free trade with a tax haven country like Panama so that tax cheating can be protected by free trade law, that's nothing?

Have you been paying attention? Just because you don't care about any substantial issue doesn't mean that other people's concerns are nothing. It just means that you care less and pay less attention than a lot of other people.

:shrug:

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You said it better than I could, all politicians are suspect.

Whereas a lot of issues in politics aren't quite so cut-and-dried.

I'm not defending Obama, just pointing out that the mathematic analogy doesn't work.

That is what you are trying to say. That if President Obama expresses an opinion, we have trust him, simply because it is HIS opinion, not because of the merits of his opinion?

And an addition, such as 2+2=5, is objective, not subjective.

Objective does not necessarily equal "true".

After all, unlike Bush, he hasn't yet done anything that would prove that he should be treated otherwise.

He is privy to far more information than we are. There is nothing naive about opting to cautiously trust the new guy when he's new before he has even come close to betraying that trust. Even Bush was given a chance to actively destroy that initial trust.

This is simple logic.

Its really that simple.

Was the release of the thousands of pages of torture memos "torture-embracing?"

The problem is that there are those so riled up about prosecuting the previous administration that they have no patience for silly things like 'thinking things through.' It's no longer about simply getting justice -- they want their unbridled rage to be felt by the other side.

What these people seem to forget is that they helped elect a man that doesn't do unbridled rage. It's becoming old, but it is still very much true that Obama is a cool customer. If you would just sit back and relax, you'd likely be surprised and impressed by the completeness of the final result.

Like well-played chess, the moves won't make complete sense to the opponent or observers until near the end. Patience!

But apparently being consistent on that point makes me an elitist extremist. :shrug:

Why is it not credible when the President says that he believes the same will happen this time?

America is not as left as DU... but America is closer to DU than it is to FR.

In the same way that Mars is closer to the Sun than it is to Neptune. It still ain't close.

America is far to the Left of DU - or at least to the aggressive and domineering minority here who control or destroy every discussion, or try to.

I can support that if there is any interest - I can talk about it all night and would love nothing more - but for now I thought I would just match one assertion with another.

This smear on the majority of DUers, fighting passionately for the majority of the people in the country, and making arguments that you never bother to refute or even address, is getting really frayed around the edges and boring.


...

he was hiding. Obama did not order this stuff. His concerns are legitimate. I don't want any more innocent people to die for the BFEE's crimes.

:grr:

and President Obama has Ended it.. and your equating the two is disingenuous.

Reports said it was still happening under Obama's watch at Guantanamo, and got worse under Obama's watch. The CIA prisons haven't been closed, so it is almost certainly still going on there too.

What makes you think Obama ended it? Because he says he did? :rofl:

Keeping his hands clean with reasonable foreknowledge that the pictures will be released.

When you're heart is on your sleeve then don't be surprised when it takes a few hits.

He's ordering his lawyers to defend Bush's policies on multiple fronts. He's continuing some of Bush's policies as his own. He's not wearing his heart on his sleeve. He's being a politician running an empire.

The heart on the sleeve mention was not a reference to Obama but to many of his critics. It is my strong guess that a good portion of progressives have little patience, stomach, or use for politics.
There is merit and inherent weakness in that. Gamesmanship-wise, the flaw in the President's performance is the flip/flop. I think it was a wink and a nod in our general direction but none of us (even folks like me that didn't budge on our outrage meters) care or in a measurable way appreciate it. You see Bushisim, I see pure politics being played, others might feel he had a legit change of heart (come on guys, nobody goes from busting this shit out on Memorial Day to contesting) but no one is impressed by the wink so he may as well have just went against in the first place to pick up the "points".
He'd take pretty much the same heat from our end but could soften some resolve against him with some voters.

Or at least it would be sparsely populated.

The Democrats are just as hypocritical as the Republicans. People would be foaming at the mouth if Bush had done it. Same for Pelosi if she had been a Republican, many here wouldn't have given her the benefit of the doubt.

The more I see of both parties, the more I see two sides of the same coin.

;(

Nobody here would care about her breast implants.

:)

perhaps he'd be more trusted by the people whom he needs for his political support. He's against equality, and to me such people are usually against more than one human right. Folks with such 'faith based' bigotry almost always are shown to be corrupt, like John Edwards, and capable of great crimes, like Cheney and Bush. They see others as less than human, and they see themselves as worhty judges of other people's value as human beings. A person who opposes equality most likely will also support torture and rendition and other crimes against humanity, for all such crime is built on the prejudiced assumption that some people are less human that others. Some deserve to have fewer rights, some deserve to have their children tortured in front of them. Because they are less than human. Hallelujah!

;-)

I respect his judgement but that doesn't mean I can't disagree.

n/t

But you're right! :thumbsup:

decisions. I really disagree with that. It is more difficult to find a time when this place hasn't gone nuts. There is no double standard.

then it would become quite boring. I enjoy the outrage, faux and otherwise...

Very much :wtf:

:( :thumbsdown:

Even his own military commanders.

and a straight jacket, LOL

:eyes:

--if a) the American public is unaware of the breadth and extent of the operation;

b) the American public believes the torture was not directed from the highest (stolen) offices;

c) the torture is not known to be inextricably related to a larger program of torture, kidnapping, murder, and displacement, yet to be fully revealed.

Well, DU helped get this fellow elected. Maybe it's our job to keep him on the straight and narrow, too.

There is another damned good reason for it, which is that if President Obama buys his way into the cover-up he loses a huge part of his freedom of movement in the future, and like his predecessors, playing hide-the-ball and misdirecting will absorb a huge and ever increasing amount of his administration's time and effort. It will make him less effective.

I think we need to tell our elected officials what we think is going on, and caution them that only disclosure and immediate cessation of these practices will save them from the repercussions.

I'm no longer familiar with Presidents who don't pronounce the "b" in subtle. Now I'm wondering if the White House isn't posturing until the inevitable leaks start to pour out. It would appear the first already have in between the time I wrote that post above and this one.

But I'm not optimistic.

The messiah has spoken, everyone get in line...

RL

You nailed it.

This isn't news. We've always had our share of people, like the Repubs, who think being in charge is the end all be all of what it's about. What we actually do with that power is a-ok, as long as it's our guy running the show. The Democrats have their 20 percenters, just like the Republicans did.

The hypocrisy is stunning.

Listen if you think it's time to start a let's bash Obama thread then start one and stop the nit-picking Bullshit!

It's easy to monday morning QB sitting behind that computer at home. You have no idea what goes on behind the scenes
in DC.

I gave my vote to Obama and I'm gonna trust the decisions he makes - and if I'm not satisfied with his accomplishments at the end of his (FOUR YEAR) term then I will vote against him in the next election.

Your bitching is A TORTURING!

Every American has a DUTY to hold our President to the wheel. Read some Teddy Roosevelt.

I'll continue to pay my taxes and bitch whenever I feel the need too. Your trust notwithstanding

I love how if you make a mistake on a 1040, you can go to prison, so doesn't that violate the Fifth Amendant protection one for Self Incrimination?

Well, apparently, filing a 1040 is "VOLUNTARY", and more and more cases are being thrown out of court because the Government and the IRS is unable to produce the LAW that states that we are required to file a tax return.

Check out America: Freedom to Fascism and see for yourself what all the hullabaloo is about. You'd think it would be real easy to show the exact section in the U.S.C. that describes the regulation, but guess what, their isn't.

Not only that, but the 16th Amendment was never fully ratified by all the states, never mind that it did not grant the Government any new taxation powers.

I know, this is news to me, but I welcome anyone to check it out for themselves. The movie is available on Google Video in it's entirety.

bother judging or caring about what he does until the end of his term? You're going to just sit back and watch for 4 years?

A lot of us think that in a democracy we should all be informed, involved, and pushing the best policy ideas to the top. We should be doing what we can to push public opinion in a progressive direction so that maybe, just maybe our government will do something progressive.

If you want to sit for 4 years and just watch, while only the lobbyists influence what happens, then the lobbyists will always win.

Of course they will almost always win anyway because they have the big money behind them. :(

But at least those of us who pay attention, and speak up, and write letters, and protest, and try to be heard have some small chance to changing something for the better.

People who don't do anything to push any issue at all have no chance to changing anything for the better.

??

Obama is still quite far from Bush
Remember, Bush authorized this in the first place. Then, he used presidential-sounding arguments to justify covering it up.
Just because Obama uses the same argument doesn't mean he's committing the same offense. Not even close.

That's where I stand! Even though he wasn't my first pick & Hillary was my last, I DID go out and work my ASS off down here in Florida! As those of us who did this together have been talking lately, we look at each other and say... "I'd hate to think we worked so hard just for 'same dance, different song' and think we've been sold down the river!"

And many days pounding the pavement were long, hot AND very humid!

for the big ballz.

...are a transparent lot, many who have already had their asses handed to them on another matter recently, cannot seem to wait till more info is available. Personally, I think he's right not releasing the photos as they are evidence in any prosecution that will take place, not to mention the reasons he has given already. It's already a proven fact, given recent history, that many DUers are prone to leap before they look, and I believe the current issue will prove another ill-timed, and thoughtless leap. Of course, there will be the usual, "Well, if I had known that" crap, but really, isn't that the point? We don't know everything, and until it comes out, the potential to turn seemingly intelligent people into back-trackers is strong, and if this one blows up in their faces, they will, for the most part, not admit they were among the raging ragers. They will simply wait til the next "outrage", vent as though they were at the table with Obama and his advisors, privy to the real deal, then hit us again with another load of "Well, if I had known that" horse-shit. Obama worshiper? Not really. I supported HRC, and still do, but so far Obama has done an admirable job, and I have not been disappointed to the point of outrage, real or imagined. It's sad that so many believe if Obama fixes all the ills of this country, the economy, the wars, civil rights, etc., it won't mean shit because he didn't spank Bushco's ass, which I believe he will in due time. As for your "double standard", the decision may be similar to what Bush might have done, but I believe you're in left field as to motive. Thanks.
quickesst

When Obama does something right, DU is like a golden city. Everyone is happy and high-fiving and the mysterious crowd that can never a single thing that the President has done right is nowhere to be found.

But the second that there is a perceived mistep on Obama's part, this same crowd that've been cowering in their respective corners when things are good come flying out of nowhere to come howling. I can't figure it out. Do they honestly believe that no one can see right through them, the transparency that you mentioned, or do they just not care?

Experience has taught us that Bush LIES! We couldn't trust him to be honest with us. If he used the same "reasons" as Obama has, there was an 90% chance that something else (hidden) was going on. I have no reason not to trust Obama. I think he truly has our good will at heart. I think the photos would only make people more angry ... so what is the purpose? What is there new to learn? We all ready know that what was done was wrong. Wrong, is wrong, is wrong, is wrong. No pictures needed!

It's nice to feel like I can trust the president to look at all sides and make the right decisions (even if it means changing what he said before). How many of you would want to be in the Middle East, not by your choice and then walk the streets of some small village after those pictures have been released? I think we owe our soliders more than there is need for our own curiosity.

So does Cheney. And every time they do, this place does go nuts.


As well it should.

This is getting really boring. With each passing day it seems like we have the same old shit—just a different president. Do we have to just reconcile ourselves to the fact that the United States has lost the moral high ground never to regain it? Is this it? Probably.

The problem is that the culture of Washington is defined by those that remain—the career bureaucrats. And the right wing has had 30 years to salt this mine. The culture that has been established is reflexively right wing and leans far more toward Cheney than towards Obama.

After slightly over three months of earnest hope (on our parts) the Obama administration has caught the Washington virus. The permanent governing class comprised of the career bureaucrats has, again, reasserted itself. The bureaucracy that runs the military industrial complex—the CIA, NSA, FBI, the Pentagon—all of those hundreds of thousands of employees that don’t change regardless of which party is in power have shown themselves again. And Obama is caving.

There have been many warning signs. Obama selected Wall Street lifers to manage a bailout of the financial firms rather than taking over those firms and throwing the people that stole billions of dollars in jail. To punish them we are now giving them trillions of tax payer dollars to keep them afloat when they shouldn’t exist any longer.

Then there were the insanely aggressive assertions to the courts about the State Secrets act. Now, the administration has reneged on publishing the photos from our torture centers: Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, and others.

Next to fall will be the release of secret memos that were to be declassified but won’t be. Then the Obama Department of Justice will refuse to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate. Also, Obama, in the face of institutional pressure is talking about continuing to hold detainees forever without charges but now in the US. This will complete the destruction of any US claim to being a nation of law.

There is a quiet battle being waged here and Obama is losing hands down. The entrenched powers in the intelligence community, the military, the diplomatic corp, the justice department, and the treasury department are all resisting any change at all. Obama can change the paint on this car—maybe a bit of molding—but the engine, the chassis, the suspension are all off limits.

This isn’t just the Republican Party—this is the all of the people that populate government that are so innately extreme right wingers that they’ll never change. In fact, their belief system is so strong that they don’t even see that there might be a problem.

They are in a word, conservatives. They don’t want to change anything. These people all believe that things have been just fine since the Reagan “revolution” and we’re just having a couple of hiccups along the way. The idea that things are fundamentally screwed up and that change is crucial to our survival doesn’t even occur to them.

Lindsey Graham is emblematic of the psychology here. He said in so many words yesterday that torture has been around for 500 years so it must work. Sadly, Lindsey Graham is the easiest part to fix—he is a legislator. He can be voted out of office. The guys that work in the government that have attitudes just like his cannot. In fact, they essentially have life tenure.

And right now, they’re steamrolling Obama.

To turn this ship around there will have to be huge wholesale retirements and lay offs. The President will have to wield power in a way that has not happened since FDR. He’ll have to clean house. Right now he’s just rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship of state.

I don’t think he’s up to it.

I've been thinking this exact thing all day.

the country know. Many of my progressive friends have no idea about the excesses and the extent of the torture. Thy are often left with the pathetic MSM. The media is not reporting much of the important info, especially the television hacks. A lot of Americans do not get the NY Times or have time to spend hours surfing the internet. They are working, raising kids, trying to survive. many my age do not even know how to use a computer. They need these photos. The photos would push Obama to do what is right and he does not want to.

He had nothing to do with the crimes.

It's morally questionable but still not the same thing. Rightly or wrongly, Obama is just not eager to risk derailing the rest of his agenda.

In fact, I don't think I have ever seen such a furious response to something Obama has done to date.

And with good reason, this is the nail in his coffin. The PTB that gave him the go ahead to become the current masthead thought that a superficial moment of change would distract everyone from paying attention to the continuing process of transforming government into just another Mega Corporation, without a Constitution.

Obama, follwing their directions, it doing exactly what they tell him to do, but the people of America have had enough. I would not be surprised to see some very severe economic news coming in the near future, as they try to defuse the outrage by causing a panic, and forcing the populace to contract into their own safe little worlds.

Something is different. The people have awoken, and the PTB are scared shitless.

Duh.

When a liar says something you ALWAYS figure he is lying and has a selfish motive. It's no harder (for me) to understand than that.

You bet there is a double standard at DU - just read the replies.

This scandal has already seen the light of day, been investigated, and been prosecuted.

#2 I trust Obama, explicitly, and I agree with his decision because releasing the photos of a CLOSED INVESTIGATION serves no purpose right now, except to allow people to oggle the gore.

Bush is liar, so I don't trust anything he says. No double standard.

The photos from Abu Ghraib increased the number of
new recruits for Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and Hamas.

These new photos could be used in the same manner.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/24/kerry-detainee...

On one hand, I'm glad the atrocities were exposed, gruesome and
awful as they were so those responsible could be prosecuted.

But I don't forget how they could be used against us,
especially our servicemen and women in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I guess you don't support our troops then. Obama has an EXCELLENT reason for not allowing the photos. We've seen enough to KNOW the Bush Administration TORTURED. Our military has had it hard enough. A preemptive invasion, some had four tours of duty, a slacker VA, plus. Why add fuel to the fire. By the way, have you forgotten? Bush HID EVERYTHING that went on in the White House. Even to the extent of having his secretive meetings in the middle of the night, so he'd have no opposition. Bush never admitted he was wrong about anything either. Even when he was shown to be wrong in his decision making time and time again. The man has zero credibility. After awhile, I couldn't even look at him for a second without getting nauseated. Absolutely NO COMPARISON! Bush was for Bush and his base. Obama is for the U.S. military and civilian population.

You're levelling a "you don't support the troops" accusation? That crap made me want to vomit for all the years the right wing sycophants were spewing it, and I'm feeling the gorge rise again with your right wing talking point.

About the policy, appointments, and practices...

How much more bs do we have to take before we say ENOUGH?

Read Froomkin

Deconstructing Obama's Excuses

K&R to drown out the cover-up apologist threads.

I hope O wasn't counting on my same donations the next time around.

I bet she would remind us of what Jacqueline Kennedy said that day in Dallas on the plane. "Let them see what they have done."

Obama wants us to suddenly change out of the blood-stained pink suit so we can have a "pretty picture" and Obama can go to hell. Which is probably what Jacqueline Kennedy told Lady Bird when Lady Bird suggested she change out of the blood-stained pink suit. "Go to hell."

Followed by "Let them see what they have done." Indeed. Let them see what they have done. Our enemies will not hate us more. Our troops will not be in graver danger. Our country will not be more likely to be attacked again. Our enemies already hate us. They cannot hate us more.

But our friends, our allies, might hate us. Finally. And they might rise up against us along with our enemies.

Let us all see what we have done. And then hang our heads in shame and hope the world will forgive us.

Get a brain. They are kind of handy.

You just told a whole lotta truth there!

The saddest thing I have seen on DU over the past 8+ years is how quickly and willingly so many have rolled over for the Obama Belly Rub.

My, my, my...whodda thunk. :(