This week was one of those weeks I stayed away from DU

Which sucks because I really could have used this place. Its primary season and I'm involved in a couple tough races here but I digress.

Anyway, just from lurking over the week it seems like the same old shit. If you are angry about the Torture Pics not being released your a traitor to the democratic party if you aren't you are an Obama worshiper etc. A sad argument I have fallen into myself in the past.

This is one of those cases where I'm torn so I'm staying the hell out of it.

On one hand nothing would make me happier to see war crimes and treason trials for the Bush Kabul. On the other hand if one 19 year old kid is blown up by another 19 year old kid stirred up over pictures of his people being abused I question whether releasing these pictures at this moment is worth it. So I'm torn between wanting justice and not wanting more people needlessly killed on both sides. Which is where I'm guessing where the President was when he made the decision.

It's like a drumbeat getting louder and louder.

And it's music to the opposition's ears.

Recommending this post.

The fact we are so willing to question our leaders and think about consequences.

Thinking about what I wrote about the 19 year old kids killing each other. Dick Cheney really doesn't give a flying fuck about that, which makes him effective sometimes, but also killed his party.

I'll take our side's way of doing things. I'd rather be part of a herd of cats than a herd of sociopaths.

This too shall pass........

Next week Barack Obama, the President of the United States, is calling Benjamin Netanyahu onto the Oval Office carpet, (sure, it's Bush's old carpet, but there's a TOTALLY new dude with a new chair sitting at the desk!)

It's gonna be FUN!!!!! :bounce:

:evilgrin:

..the GOP just has to sit back and watch as liberals gobble up this new President and spit him out.


We're our worst enemy.

that didn't give a shit, Obama is suddenly the worse president ever? I don't get it. Today, I felt that if President Obama decided in 2012 to do something else, I wouldn't blame him. This is bullshit. Even the MSM that is supposed to be "liberal" is following Rove's playbook.

Political Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome.


Liberals are so used to not trusting "the Man", that they've taken everything Obama does with a grain of salt ... just as if he was no different than Bush.


Too many liberals are making the Bush comparison every time Obama makes a decision that isn't 100% in agreement with their own personal views.


Doesn't matter that Obama completely changed the tribunals to fix all the flaws we saw in them. By keeping them at all, he's a neocon stooge in their eyes.


Doesn't matter that Obama's is the gay-friendliest administration in the history of this nation. He hasn't repealed DOMA or changed DADT yet, so he's just another closet homophobe.


Doesn't matter that Obama's administration is the most pro-union in 30 years (the Chrysler deal is proof). He hasn't enacted card-check yet (which is a bad bill - I'm with George McGovern on this one)... so he's just another corporate lackey.


For 8 years liberals were the sane ones.

Not true any more.

We aren't in the streets talking about Tea bagging and wondering why our children our laughing at us :rofl:

thinking. It seems to me that he's doing the best possible with the hand he's been dealt. I'll continue to support the President. I'm just steering clear of the negativity. It's gotten to the ridiculous point.

Obama does, but overall I think he's done pretty well given the hand he has been dealt.

about personalities which will so often disappoint.

Sure, I can enjoy the hell out of a president who can actually speak - and who can be
spontaneous. Who doesn't seem to be a Sadist.

However, many here do want to idealize and idolize -- many do want to see their president
as a personality. It's really fine except that's not what this is all about.

This is about a party we elected to lead us to correcting at least the past 8 years --
truthfully, we really need someone who will acknowledge the political violence of the past
four decades -- and begin to do something about it and all the coverups.

We need a party leader who will acknowledge the stolen elections which, IMO, didn't just
suddenly happen in 2000 and then again in 2004 -- but much, much earlier -- perhaps as
early as the late 1960's when the electonic/computer voting machiens first began to be used
. . . coincidentally, just around the time when our nation passed The Voting Rights Act and
was ending Segregation, Inc.


This is one of those cases where I'm torn so I'm staying the hell out of it.

On one hand nothing would make me happier to see war crimes and treason trials for the Bush Kabul. On the other hand if one 19 year old kid is blown up by another 19 year old kid stirred up over pictures of his people being abused I question whether releasing these pictures at this moment is worth it. So I'm torn between wanting justice and not wanting more people needlessly killed on both sides. Which is where I'm guessing where the President was when he made the decision.

And what if in not releasing all evidence of this horrendous torture -- and I think we should also
have truth hearings and investigations -- these people filter back into government again.
They or their allies. How many will die then? I can't look at a 24 hour window. But, I can look
back to the assassinations of the 1960's and well understand that in covering them up, we have been
brought to this torturous moment in time.

And a suffering world -- and our own suffering nation -- is evidence of that reality.

Those who have led this nation since then have come to power illegitimately for illegitimate
purposes. They have delivered a "third world America." Imperialism, lies, greed, stolen
elections. Many did die trying to prevent this from happening after the coup on JFK -- MLK,
RFK, Jr. How many have died in Bush/Cheney wars trying to protect freedom and yet we consider
that an honor.

In this case, there is only one answer and that is to pursue justice thru truth.

Most of the people who will be appalled by the photos are already on our side. Most of the people who got their 9-12 faces on are going to give a flying fuck whether or not we tortured a few brown people. Than there is another 30% of this country who might be slightly appalled but will shrug their shoulders say oh well and not care.

I want trials, convictions, and punishment as much as the next person. However, that has political and real world consequences. One of those consequences is the photos will be used as propaganda and a recruiting tool in that region. A region that supplies a significant portion of a commodity that can destabilize more of the world if shortages were created by increased violence as we are trying to leave one of the countries.

As you said, however, not releasing leaves the chance the guys who ordered this get off and the people who think like them are emboldened to do something worse the next time they are in power. That is a serious consideration as well.

This is probably the most complex problem our President has to deal with. Not just the pictures, but the entire mess that has been created. No situation is black and white. This is just shades of dark gray no matter what the President decides.

I just had an e-mail from my USHR Representative Leonard Lance . . .
referring to the "alleged" torture.

Do you truly think that the response to what we know of the torture has been sufficient?

The arguments you are making could have been made about the brutality against African-
Americans fighting to end Segregation, yet photographers still persisted. In fact, as
I understand it, many of those photographs were prevented from being shown.

Racism hasn't ended, of course.
But the battle to free African-Americans and to end Segregation was pushed by photos
and film of the brutality visited upon those sitting at Woolworth counters and those
marching.

Photographs of lynchings.

There's a very famous photograph of a woman who died in a hotel long ago having suffered
the consequences of an illegal abortion.

Photographs of Nazi concentration camps -- the dead, the survivor's stories --
and the urgency and importance these survivors still speak of in having these stories
told.

And, if this were truly what the Obama administration and TPB believed . . .

Here is more on my interpretation
Most of the people who will be appalled by the photos are already on our side. Most of the people who got their 9-12 faces on are going to give a flying fuck whether or not we tortured a few brown people. Than there is another 30% of this country who might be slightly appalled but will shrug their shoulders say oh well and not care.

they would have no qualms about releasing the photos/films.

Also, try to keep in mind that the courts have been fighting for years to release this evidence
to the public! The UCLA has worked to have them released.
Are these all insensitive, unknowing, unthinking people?

I want trials, convictions, and punishment as much as the next person. However, that has political and real world consequences. One of those consequences is the photos will be used as propaganda and a recruiting tool in that region. A region that supplies a significant portion of a commodity that can destabilize more of the world if shortages were created by increased violence as we are trying to leave one of the countries.

The torture has been used and is being used as a recruiting tool --
Our very presence -- our occupation of Iraq is a recruiting tool.
We are there to control the oil -- we are a superpower -- oil is the very purpose of our attack.
We are there -- and have been bombing Iraq for TWENTY YEARS -- to deny them the power of their
own natural resources.

Those who have controlled our nation have also controlled its wealth and resources --
and denied us other means of energy -- and they will continue to do so til they have drained
the last cent from those resources.

We don't hold people responsible for crime -- at least IMO -- to punish them.
We do so to isolate them from society and to prevent them from doing harm again.


Obama didn't have to involve himself in this issue -- except to proclaim to the world that
we were correcting this problem - by speaking directly to the world of it -- by speaking
to our soldiers and our military leaders and by ensuring that everyone is properly educated
in Geneva Accords - always!

As you said, however, not releasing leaves the chance the guys who ordered this get off and the people who think like them are emboldened to do something worse the next time they are in power. That is a serious consideration as well.

As I said, it is NOT a "matter of chance." It is inevitable that when fascists take control
of government we are not going to enjoy peace nor sanity. You can see that from the last
8 years. How many died over that period of time?

Look back to 1963 and understand that the coup on JFK permitted fascism to cross our
threshold. How many died trying to stop it? How many continue to die because of it?

predictable and I get a kick out of punishing the insanity. Here it can get really depressing at times so just check in every couple of months or so.

The Republicans on the other hand cannot stand "transition" and "power vacuum" at all.


The irony is that Bush's pick of Cheney and McCain's pick of Palin is cementing an unprecedented transition related civil war, which will keep us in power even longer causing Democrats to pick at each other even longer. It is the perfect ironic storm.

eom

... right time. Right tone. Right words.


K.R.

I do it all the time with my Glen Beck/Rush loving father.

Keep up the good work Jake!