It Never Ceases to Amaze Me

...how many people around here seem to take the knee-jerk approach to life, reacting without doing much thinking -- or, perhaps, they're OVERthinking.

It took our previous so-called President eight insufferable years to completely screw this country up, and as much as I loved the guy before him, the previous Democratic administration did a bit of screwing us up as well. President Obama has entered into a leadership role with a decade's pile of shit to clean up, PLUS he has to dodge torpedoes coming from both sides of every decision he makes.

I've said this before and I will say this again. He has only been in office a few months. Yet so many here expect him to have cleaned up the mess already, damn the consequences. But what I see is a guy with a lot of high ideals who has come into the job and learned that, in order to make it work, he has to compromise. He is seeing the country from a different point of view -- one that NONE OF US HERE CAN EVEN IMAGINE -- privy to information that few, if any, of us will ever know, and he has had to readjust his positions and maneuvers based on that information.

This is what anyone does in any situation. We have long known that Obama is a pragmatist and it should be no surprise that he's forced to deal in facts rather than emotions or ideals. And undoing the waste that has been laid is a slow, laborious and sometimes extremely painful process.

Giving birth to change is not an instantaneous or easy task and, right now, Obama is still in the early stages of that birth. And like anyone going through labor, he's going to say and do some things that we don't want to see and hear.

So for those of you who are disappointed by this or that statement, this or that speech, this or that course of action, just remember to keep your eye on the prize. I would not have voted for the man if I didn't believe he had the ability to -- at some point in the future -- help deliver that prize.

The simple truth is, that despite a few glitches, this man is the best hope we have for ever seeing real change. In fact, he's made quite a few sweeping changes as it is, and there will be many more to come. And the right wingers in this country know this, because they're scared shitless. They also know that despite what he may say in public, he's very much likely to go after the criminals in the previous administration. D.C. is a small town and those who are scrambling to cover their asses would not bother if they weren't hearing messages that give them reason to be alarmed.

I don't have to support everything Obama does -- in fact, I knew before he entered the office that he'd likely do things that I didn't like. But I'm certainly willing to give him a full four years to prove himself. If he doesn't, I pray that the next person to occupy his chair is someone I can stomach.

And anyone who tries to equate Obama with Bush is, frankly, full of shit. There is nothing even remotely similar about these two men. One was a whiny little weasel who surrounded himself with corrupt, immoral men. The other is a President.

And I'm 1000% in agreement with you. :toast:

I just watched "No End in sight" and it alarmed me again on what kind of shithole Bush has done regarding Iraq. That is just one issue. People of the left are being very short sighted(both in looking forward and backwards) when we engage in knee jerk responses to what Obama is trying to do to clean up over 30 years (excepting the Clinton admin) of conservative abuse.

:thumbsup:

...

anything he does of benefit would just be topping - the real deal - the dessert - is getting re-elected.

What's the point of having our people in positions of power if they don't DO anything?

for anyone who might have been listening...

I get the impression you are arguing against the hyperbole, and maybe using a bit yourself. There haven't been alot of "sweeping changes". Yes, we have gotten the usual laundry list of beauracratic changes, stem cell, etc. We're seeing movement on CAFE standards, and some money going into "green" technologies, although it appears "clean coal" is moving forward and hydrogen is going away. And we've gotten the "promise" of alot of future changes, troops out of Iraq someday, Gitmo closed someday, DADT accomplished some day. But we aren't seeing any sign yet of the transformational "change" many of us hoped for and "believed". He's doubling down in Afghanistan, card check is gone, single payer never was going to be, public option appears "on the table", we'll apparently still have "indefinite detentions", Rick Warren, bank bailouts, no limits on credit card interst, total silence on the moves towards gay marriage, no motion on Habeus, even after a major speech, etc., etc.

He's not Bush, by a long shot, I'll give you that much. That's the hyperbole for sure. But he also hasn't shown any sign of truly changing anything but the "margins" on most military policy. Okay, he probably won't be invading any new countries soon. But Bush stopped doing that too. And he stopped torturing, and he wasn't going to prosecute any torturers either. And Gates was already working towards the major shifts in defense policy. If there is a major shift it is in the State Department, headed by the person the PUMA's were calling for. We'll get a "moderate" SC nominee, will we get a rabid liberal? We got several rabid conservatives.

Where's the transformational part? This is mostly just a Clinton retread so far. Did you really elect him to create a "more perfect" indefinite detention policy?

Well, "a mostly just a Clinton retread so far" is certainly a massive change over the previous eight years, and I don't look at that as a negative thing. As for a "'more perfect' indefinite detention policy," -- as I said, I don't agree with everything he's done or plans to do. Few of us will.

But I'm not a child. I know I can't have everything NOW NOW NOW. I have learned over the years that the world doesn't work that way and to expect it is both unrealistic and naive.

As for the problems you list (silence on gay marriage, etc.), you are making an assumption that these things will always be true, based on a few months of a man's presidency. I'm not asking anyone to change their stance on any of their ideals. I'm merely suggesting patience. His job is to build support for these things and that sometimes comes at a price.

There is not a single person here -- not one -- who could take on the job he's taken on and make all of us happy. Or any of us COMPLETELY happy.

I elected him to do his best to change this country given what he has inherited and the balance he has to strike to make that change possible. And, to my mind, that's what he's doing.

Some were hoping for an FDR kinda shift. The economy surely gave him that kind of opportunity. It's a vastly bigger opportunity than Clinton had. But if you want to set the bar just as low as it can go, you'll always be happy. Some of voted for a bit more.

And I'm not making assumptions that there is no single payer. I'm not making assumptions that public option is "on the table" in a negative fashion. I'm not making assumptions that card check has "died". I'm not making assumptions that military commissions continue, or that indefinite detentions continue. He DID honor Rick Warren. These are "realities". You are making assumptions that somehow, despite the poor start, that it will "get better". Some of us have lived through this before and we got DADT, The Defense of Marriage Act, and Welfare Reform. And we DIDN'T get healthcare reform. Which is why a "Clinton retread" isn't the best thing progressives and liberals were hoping for. It isn't the transformational "massive change" that some have been working for over the last 30 years. Mostly, it's trimming around the edges. Especially when the most heneous of the Bush policies do stay. We're still in Iraq, we're doubling down in Afghanistan. We still have Gitmo, and the democrats just voted to leave it open. Obama's response? I'm going to continue indefinite detentions. But don't worry, I'm going to spread the blame around.

I'm giving him time, what other choice do I have. But I'm also calling the race as it is happening, and right now the liberals are trailing by several lengths.

:evilgrin:

K/R

I have seen posts where people have criticized actions he has already taken. I have seen people criticize him for not taking specific actions. But I’ve never seen the kind of sentiment you speak of. I must not be reading the right threads.

...for that sentiment to come across. There is a certain impatience that seems to permeate these boards.

I don't say much. I mostly read and lurk. But I see that impatience, feel it coming from these posts, time and time again. The man has not turned out to be the God many people hoped he would be. He has disappointed some and the reaction is swift and brutal. As if people are shocked he doesn't agree with everything they believe in and has somehow betrayed them. And then there are others who seem to have been waiting for him to fuck up so that they can pounce.

Then, finally, there have been those who pounce simply because they don't like the man. Never have.

But my question to all of you is this. What is our best alternative? Does it exist? Is there a person alive who can fulfill everyone's ideals?

I'm not ready to judge the man just yet. I'm waiting to see how it all shakes out. And while I may not be completely happy with the result, or the paths taken to get there, I can be reasonably certain it'll be much better than anything we've seen in recent memory.

It already is.

I've seen vastly more transformational change than he is even proposing, much less accomplishing.

...can also be colored by the romance of nostalgia. I've been around for quite a while and there was a time when things were much better in this country -- AND a lot worse. And while I was in the middle of it all -- even at its highest point (from my perspective) -- it honestly didn't feel that much better than it does right now. There's ALWAYS that feeling that we could be so much better and I don't think that feeling will ever completely go away.

But I can tell you that during the last eight years I was more depressed than I've ever been. And no matter how bad things may sometimes seem at the moment, they're certainly a lot better than anything the previous administration brought us.

To use a cliche, I think we've turned a corner. It may not be a sharp turn, but it's a turn nonetheless.

We haven't particularly turned. We've put the brakes on the direction we were going, and that has slowed many things, stopped others. Can I find a few that have changed direction? Oh, if I torture the metaphor maybe. I guess we are "allowing" stem cell research funding. Anyone know of any that's actually started? We've depoliticized the science of various departments, have the new reports come out yet? That's what I mean, you can't declare we've turned before we have. On the other hand, in some areas the announcements have already been made, the change some of us were hoping for ain't gonna happen. We'll still have infinite detentions, and troops in Iraq, and more in Afghanistan. Hope you weren't thinking of single payer because they're not even allowed in the room. Card check? Nope. Guns are being allowed in national parks. There's one I'm sure he campaigned upon. And we did remember to honor Rick Warren. And although we've stopped torturing, we've taken no steps to ensure it can't happen again. And we've expressed a preference for not investigating what went on, or prosecuting anyone who did. Furthermore, we have stepped out and said that "we have the torture's backs". That's not the change many of us could believe in. Oh, and we're still kicking the gays out of the military.

If your measure is the last 8 years, it almost can't get worse. Even McCain would have been better than that measure. Even Bush in the last 2 years stopped most of the worst of the worst. He never attack Iran. He stopped torturing people. They closed down the CIA prisons. But that is a LONG way from "alot better" if you can remember back more than a single decade. I'm not saying that Obama is "just like Bush". I'm saying that he's alot like Clinton, and that's how we got DADT and the Offensive Marriage Act. Oh, and no more independent counsel law.

The OP is the big strawman tent under which the other strawmen congregate.

I thought of this, too...after my knee-jerk reactions. Sometimes you hold it in until it gets so much you feel the need to let off steam, or explode. I think many people here do the same. They get upset and may voice their displeasure here, but you know that most liberals analyze and think about EVERYTHING, so they're going to come to the same conclusions you've just stated wonderfully here. Eventually.

I just remember what the alternative was. The President is not perfect but the alternative was certain disaster.

We controlled the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. No more Republican machine to unite against, and so it was only a matter of time before we turned on our own.

Everyone has their own pet issue (some big, some small), and they all seem to want theirs addressed now now now. If Obama doesn't do so, he's labeled Republican lite, a criminal appeaser, Bush 2.0, etc etc. Nevermind that some of these demands ask him to do things he lacks the legal authority for!

Fact is, he has an abso-frickin'-lutely gigantic mess to clean up. When he makes decisions people here don't like, he's probably doing so based upon info we're not privy to. Whatever the case, Obama has many uncomfortable choices ahead, and we're not going to agree with them all. People will knee-jerk, and I'll ignore it. Given the monumental nature of our country's problems, I doubt that everything will be fixed within a two-term presidency, much less a few months in.

complicated situations. I couldn't safely say there will be prosecutions it's minefield for him to go there but in 8 years time the world will be in a much more positive place from today. The latest China Ambassadorship appointment shows he's always thinking ahead always constructing his vision of a brighter and safer future.

also they always complain about what he did or did not do when he passes some type of bill what in the hell do they think they would have gotten with the RepubliCONS..

Mmlcolm Gladwell wrote an excellent book entitled Blink. His well argued premise was that our snap judgments are often better than decisions made after complex analysis.

.... your post is spot on.

:applause:

expects Obama to have everything fixed immediately.

Nobody expects Obama to fix everything immediately.

But we do expect him to move in the right direction. And thus far he seems to me—and a LOT of others—to be moving in a decidedly WRONG direction on a whole raft of issues, even going to far as to unabashedly embrace some of the most appalling policies of his predecessor. THIS is what we object to.

You're using a lot of the same arguments to defend Obama that Bush supporters used to justify his administration's inexcusable actions...like it was fine for Bush's administration to torture people because they were, to use your words, "privy to information that few, if any, of us will ever know".

We do NOT expect Obama to "fix" everything right away, and I'm sick and tired of all criticisms—very serious and substantive criticisms—being characterized as juvenile "poutrage" that we didn't "get a pony". Get over yourselves.

We DO expect him to put The People first and do the right thing.

:kick:

Nominated.