The SCLM is right, and "we" are pussies.

There's a -lot- of lip service (keyboard service?) here which is a good thing but it doesn't accomplish shit. Before you flame me for my comments, look at what I've written over the last 2 1/2 years. There aren't many folks here that despise Bush and his gang of thugs more than I do. But all this intra-preaching-to-the-choir is just crap, it won't amount to anything. There is an 'organization' of ZERO. I want to know how the Ukranians managed to assemble hundreds of thousands of people to protest the very same kind of election FRAUD we experienced, and we can't manage to come up with something similar! Did they (I'm ashamed to admit I don't know) have the support or at least coverage of whatever amounts to their MSM?

I live in a red area of a red state, mostly because I'm trying to give my 88 year old mom some support (she hates Bush too, after many years of Repug support) so I don't have any local infrastructure to work with. (Oklahoma)

Sorry, I'm just so damned pissed off, it's hard to make a coherent post on the subject.

We do not. Kerry seems to have gone upriver, leaving us to fend the enemy on our own.

And it is ok to be so pissed off, you're not the only one that feels this way.

And I also remember Kerry & Edwards telling us that Hope was on the way. Well, when is it going to get here?

that is. With our tax dollars.

Yushchenko is pro-west. This whole "opposition" was bought and paid for by the US. Hadn't you heard?

So I guess we need some other government to pay an opposition leader for us...some other country with a self-interest in said opposition leader. Who could it be?

Not to mention the millions of dollars that were paid by the U.S. for their exit polls over there. Not all is as it seems.

Apperently he has yet to be convinced that there is enough evidence that he won in Ohio.

Ohio. He is involved, just not the way you'd like. Nothing short of a sign on his back that says 'Kick me I'm stupid' would satisfy some people. If he had come out right away, he might has well have had that phrase tattooed on his forehead. The *ies are following this very closely, don't kid yourself, stealth and prosecutorial chops are what's needed here. Kerry is involved. If (if being the operative word) he gets some solid proof, anything actionable, he will make his move out in the open. He is anything but a pussy. BTW, no matter how much money he and Teresa have, it can't be used for anything to do with the election, so what's the point of bringing it up?

Flame away.

there are real cities, not sprawls of suburbs like here. There are people in the streets all the time, not in their cars like here. There are "centers" and not vague drags like here. If you want to make a strong demonstration in Europe, it's easy, you start with a hundred and an hour later you get thousands, here it's nearly impossible. Words spread faster and without media. Here it's total isolation. More, I think, due to the environment than to people being "pussies". Living myself in a small red rural area, I hear your frustration.

that tens of thousands can just commute to, even by a short train ride.

We have DC and it's pretty much "under military guard".

I guess we could all descend on New York, but it's pretty hard to park.

They did it in the women's suffrage movement, the civil rights movement, and the "Million Man March." I don't see any protesters getting attacking by rabid dogs with police in tow. I don't see high pressure fire hoses be turned people in the streets. I don't see the cops beating Americans over the head with baton courtesy. So, where's this "under military guard" crap coming from? My wife was there this summer and she says she didn't see this "military guard" you're making such a big deal about... There's capital city cops, but I hardly think they qualify as military guard.

:eyes:

It has been done in the past HERE IN AMERICA, and in recent memory. So, it is NOT nearly impossible. Attitudes that promote a "can't" mentality are even more impossible. And people are pussies. Fucking keyboard brigade. In fact, one of the older (in age) posters on here was saying that people are too lazy to get from behind their keyboards and rise up and fight. I could not agree more ardently.

You wouldn't imagine how much these idiots LOVE Bush around here. I kid you not -- I probably hear one Republican a week profess their love of their president. Trust me -- this is not a Democratic friendly zone. My Kerry yard signs went missing, I've been flipped off and sworn it because of my Kerry-Edwards bumper stick, call a communist "fuck" because of my Kerry-Edwards button. So, yeah... I'm sure they'd especially love to curb a "liberal" who gets out of line around here.

I live in the same. But I also lived in European cities and I'm telling you: things happen way easier and faster there. And not because people are not "pussies".

However, I do feel that while "pussies" may be a strong word, laziness most definitely is not. Americans don't want to leave their comfort zones even though the bloody roof is falling in on them.

he had Kerry and Carson and Dodd yard signs up and altho not using internet much knows about election/vote problems....he's very worried about the next 4 years (2 sons late 20s, early 30s; wife with cancer in remission)

he said he was called a communist at work because of his support of Kerry

maybe we'd be in streets as our only choice left.

Behind the keyboard. With a false sense of empowerment.
Crash "dissident" sites? ain't gonna happen...the Internet is the best activist babysitter ever! and we pay the bill...

I live in Lawton, so you can understand that I am definitely in a red-red area of a very red state. (Being so close to Fort Sill and working in a government contracting firm.) I don't think you should be flamed at all, and I totally understand what you are saying about the area in which you reside. Living here is very limited as far as activism goes, and I've even heard the Republicans say they'd be the shit out of protesters if they had them here. (Goes to show you there mentality, or lack thereof.) So, I wholeheartedly agree with you about this very much being an organization that can stand to learn a great deal from the Ukraine. All of this talk and so-called anger about the election, but I don't see many getting involved that are in direct vicinity of some major metropolitan areas. Hell -- even Oklahoma City went for Bush!

George W. Bush (R) - 959,977 (65.58%)

John F. Kerry (D) - 503,898 (34.42%)

Even the urban areas are screwed up in Oklahoma... So, I implore those in better suited areas to protest like hell. I simply don't make the money or have the time due to familial issues and lack of money to do much more than write letters, call my Congressmen (Repugs) and encourage friends in blue zones to get involved. So, I implore those who are able to do something to get up and really do something. Raise hell! That is what it is going to take to get rid of the cancer on America.

and we are doing the work we need to ... building awareness.. supporting each other and waiting for the legal process to move thru. If we are not a rule-of-law nation we are in anarchy. There is but 1 thing to really DO, be in DC on the 6th.... no need to camp out for weeks (I hope), just fill DC with protesters and support the members of congress that will stand up for us!

folks are doing exactly what they need to.

we are talking, brainstorming, researching, bringing lawsuits, and working it as best we can politically in terms of reaching out to greens, libs and centrist r's. we have the numbers -- we just don't have halliburton doing our special ops. that's okay. right now the only thing to do is fight the fight on the vote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Ian Traynor
Friday November 26, 2004
The Guardian

With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

to one of the UK MSM papers that gets out different POV's. They published another editorial about this a few weeks ago, and published the Labour MP Meacher's 9/11 LIHOP editorial. He altered his initial views rather quickly, after UK 'public outcry', perhaps orchestrated thru Bush/Blair.

If we could organize on a local/regional basis
i.e. towns, counties, etc we could be so much more effective
If we organized with all the other organizations on a coalition type basis, we could go into our local Democratic Meetings and take them over, believe me, there are plenty of others in all of our
communities with the same feelings, but really our only venue is thru a takeover- I have been to the local Dems group in my town, and they don't have an F'n clue- but I also have met some intelligent people who I never knew prior to this. It can be done. MoveOn probably has the largest, most viable member data base, I have sent them this request a few times. It seems there is an Ego and control issue there.
The reason the movement in the '60's was so effective and rapid growth oriented, was that the organizing was done on the University/College campus level, where we had an "instant" receptive, like minded community at our immediate interactive access.
We could organize and educate on an hourly basis and it was extremely
effective.

We tried to get it from them here in Minnesota to canvass and were told they didn't have it. WTF? Then why accumulate it at all? Sorry, I forgot, they "own" us now, so they wouldn't want to let their precious database get in someone else's hands, right?

could we organize a mass simultaneous electronic protest of some kind? One that we could do from our keyboards? Or possibly go to town halls and have arrange for cable TV coverage? Through a dem-friendly cable TV network, possibly? Or maybe timed strategic mass e-mailings?

I live in Iowa and I would happily travel to Ohio, or elsewhere, to protest what is currently happening in Ohio.

Maybe if enough of us protested in Ohio, we could make a difference.

Hell, those hired Republican guns who made so much noise in Fla got the entire re-count shut down, didn't they?

and I live in Minnesota. We could organize it, car pools, etc.

already? Even that "51 Capitol" thing last Saturday... there were about 75 of us, I guess. But that particular rally got quite a bit of play in advance here on DU, as did the one the Saturday before, to the point of people posting threads asking for rides, saying there were busses from San Francisco and NYC. Still, we only pulled about 1500 tops for that one. People were saying that it was too cold. Oh, please. As a speaker said at last Saturday's rally, what, you never got this cold for a Buckeye game (or Browns game or insert other football team here)?

So, people were saying they would come to Ohio before, here on DU, and, judging from the numbers, I'd say not that many of them showed up. And of course, not that many people from Ohio showed up, either. Not even student organizations, who usually turn out in droves for things like anti-war protests. Guess it's finals week...

How to explain it?

The only thing I can think of is that they just don't care that much.

i think it wa a screen saver and it (supposedly) linked up everyone's harddrives to something that listened for noise from space?

we need something like that uses everyone's computers to fire off emails every 5 seconds. COUNT THE VOTES.

electronic warfare!!

Can you think of some ways to do it? How about if we all get in our cars and blow our horns at the same time?

here at the capital. it was obnoxious.

i like the idea of electronic protest. we should see what RU Sirius and that band of merry pranksters can dream up.

Talk to your neighbors. Don't call them "'pukes" or "'thugs"; don't try to argue politics with them at all.

Tell them about the problems with our democracy being in the hands of computers programmed by convicted felons. Point out that, even if a crooked system gives you what you want this time, how can you be sure the other side won't outbid you next time? Point out that cheating is wrong, even if "the good guys" do it.

Get them thinking, and move on.

Talk to your next neighbor. Don't pick fights, plant seeds.

--MarkusQ

they treat you like you're crazy--don't want to hear it.

First, you think they're crazy, so it shouldn't bother you a bit if they think the same of you. So don't worry about it.

That said, if you can tell that they think you are crazy, work on your pitch. Maybe you need to stress the "can't tell what the computer is doing" angle, or the "vulnerable to foreign hackers" angle, or point out cases where Democrats have stollen elections, or something to get the conversation going. But if you are surounded by people who trust everyone and everything, and think that there are no bad or evil people in the world, you live in a very strange place indeed.

--MarkusQ

I've tried every way to Sunday to get through to people. I prepare and e-mail a fact-filled newsletter twice a month. Do I hear back? Does anyone want to discuss anything? Guess.

--Carolab

They honestly don't believe that our government -- especially their fellow Republicans -- would ever do anything like that. Carolab has hit it right on the head. Put it this way... When they will acknowledge that the president did possibly mislead America about Iraq, and they believe that it is okay because he only had the best intentions, then something is fucking rotten in Denmark. When most of them seem to live in a totally separate reality, what the hell do you do? When you can't reason with them there is not much that can be done.

And I have an incident to report from today. This Republican I work with acknowledged the following yet still voted for Bush:

- Bush could have prevented the 9/11 tragedy.
- The media is definitely right-wing controlled.
- Bush undoubtedly lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. (He says, "So what?")
- Bush lied about a connection between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorist.
- His administration was in the wrong to leak information about Valerie Plame Wilson.
- The election probably was stolen, but there is nothing that can be done about it.
- E-voting is wide open to fraud. (It's cheaper than printing a bunch of paper ballots!)


MarkusQ, plant seeds you say? How the hell do you plant seeds in an abyss?

and therefore someone not firmly planted in their beliefs. grab a copy of True Believer by Eric Hoffer

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060916125/104-6949003-5768733?v=glance

Product Description:
A highly provocative, bestselling analysis of the fanatic -- the individual compelled to join a cause, any cause -- and a penetrating study of mass movements from early Christianity to modern nationalism and Communism.Reporting on the true believer, Air Hoffer examines with Machiavellian detachment mass movements, from Christianity in its infancy to the national uprisings of our own day. His analysis of the psychology of mass movements is a brilliant and frightening study of the mind of the fanatic, the individual whose, personal failings lead him to join a cause, any cause, even at peril to life -- or yours

________________________


this person wants very much for something to come along and make all this make sense. if the MSM would pick up in the vote fraud thing, you would see a lot of people like this "breaking red."

MarkusQ, plant seeds you say? How the hell do you plant seeds in an abyss?

I'd say "one at a time." But then, I have been accused of being overly patient.

The "Frustrated Believer" response to your question was also quite good.

--MarkusQ

This is exactly right. They are just plain BLOCKHEADED.

They think of THEMSELVES and guess what comes first? Their GD pocketbooks! That's right! They just don't want to pay those taxes! They can't even get it straight how this administration is borrow and spend, borrow and spend and how that's sending us all straight to hell. They just think they'll be able to keep more of their money (somehow) and "invest it" and someday they'll all get rich! Some of them think that it's "God's reward".

Others think, "let's get THEM before they get US". They are feeding into the idea that we should "fight the war over there" and that will keep us safe. The "terrorists" won't come and get them, then. Because we are just so big and bad and we kick brown-skinned butt!! And that brings up another point: they are RACISTS. They think of minorities as a bunch of "welfare-sucking skanks" and they have the same opinion of the elderly and the disabled: why should I pay for someone else's old age and their sickness?

They are SELFISH PIGS. Sorry, but it's true.

As much as it pains me, I have to agree with you. I am a former Republican, and I guess the party started to fall apart for me when they were so petty with President Clinton. I just thought their actions were going WAY too far, but I held on for a few more years. Hell, I even voted for the stupid chimp son of a bitch, and I need not say what made me complete my turn to the Democratic party. Much of the Republicans seem to have lost all of their fiscal conservatism, moderation in their actions... Now they're controlled by Bible-thumping, war-mongering, sycophants who will stop at nothing to cram their agenda down what they perceive as dissident's throats. It is very sad. However, I am a realistic optimist, and I believe that they will see the error of their ways. I hope at least... Though I doubt it is going to happen.

basic traits of boomers and slackers. You'll find the sad truth there.

what is this>?

but by shared, large magnitude historical events that shape moral values over time. We're mostly members of the Leading-Edge and Trailing-Edge Baby Boomer cohort groups. A few X-Gens and Post-War people here as well.

We're a giant population block (not the post-war group)with an overdeveloped sense of self. We don't really play well with others. And our attitude gets worse as the people get younger, with a compete reversal when you reach the Millennial cohort group, who are remarkably gregarious and altruistic.

People are either, over worked and too tired to care, feel like it doesn't matter/can't change/will make no difference or "comfortable" so feel great inside their own little bubble.

I get mad too, I understand where you are coming from Karl, but its a Catch 22.
People have to work 2 jobs and countless hours to get by because of our leaders' policies BUT aren't willing to fight for a change because they are too tired at the end of the day because of the situation they have been forced into.

I see lots of people here who are working and coming here to stay informed and even putting their lives on hold temporarily to go help with recounts.

I have inconvenienced myself plenty to work on this.

People have closed their minds off to it. I get this with lots of people who otherwise are pretty free thinkers. They just either can't or won't allow themselves to believe it, or they think that "someone else" will just take care of it for them, or it will all work out in the end. They are too used to thinking that way, that life will just go on as before, and they don't need to worry about it or work on it. We are being "alarmists", I suppose, and we should just assume that all will end well.

And as for the Bushites, they don't care as long as they think they "won". Even if the election was stolen...twice.

Seems to me these are the people to try to reach--the apathetic,
those that think that if they just hunker down awhile longer, it'll be OK. They are either in denial or think this is a job for activist types. They have given in to their situation, the willing victims--but underneath...I think there's some deeply buried anger and frustration. They may have no idea what to do with it. Instead of being angry and frustrated at THEM, how can we help? Dunno exactly myself, just throwing it out. We "alarmists" are in the position of being the canaries in the coal mine. We are doing good work, and we need to keep up education and media efforts. But what approach would get to this group best? (Wonder what they might offer on the question).

Getting through to the hardcore brainwashed Bushites is a losing battle right now as they will be in their most defensive/least receptive mode. I can agree with Markus point that they aren't all the same, and some may even come around in the end (but it'll be in the end). Yes some are so extreme that they think rigged elections are just fine. Not worth bothering with this group. I know there's another group of "troubled Republicans" with some kind of conscience out there, but they're inclined to apathy and avoidance like the Dem group. Some may even feel guilty, but people hide from guilt.

Another 4 years on this path with voting for a change no longer being an option, and its over. Carol I agree with you also, unfortunately you(we) are not the majority.

Very scary.

I think it keeps folks energized

I think it spreads information (hopefully not disinformation) to lots of others who are readers but not posters here

Apparently the traffic here is still quite high which means that there are a lot of folks here reading

Buzzflash links to stories coming off of DU occasionally about this

There is activism that goes on here as well.

I live in Arkansas, next to Oklahoma, not quite as red as Oklahoma is, but still I live near the border of Oklahoma and this is as red as it gets in Arkansas.
It is frustrating to see that a lot of people aren't aware of what's happening.
It is frustrating to see that Ukraine gets more press than our own problems. But also remember that the fraud there seemed more blatant, and B* and co. did fund the uprising.
Here the fraud is more under the wire, suppression, tampering with machines, hard to prove stuff. But I believe it will be proven.

I don't think that Kerry will be inaugerated on 1/20 anymore, but I do think that some people will go to jail over this eventually. And I do think that it will erode the so called "mandate" that * has and limit his power to ruin our country.

Hang in there!

86,000 emails from DUers to media outlets, based on data we compile, links we locate, messages we retool, consensus we reach. Sure, we could be better organized. Sure, we ultimately should get thousands into the streets. But we're rolling a boulder up a hill. Once we get to the top, the last shove should be easier. Meanwhile....

What are they hiding?
Why the coverups and stonewalling and lockdowns?
Why can't they prove massive fraud didn't occur?

Check out this thread and start glueing. This is our Sore Loserman.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x169756

to safeguard their elections? God, how dense can we all be. Bushco is sponsoring, supporting, paying for the election protests. (Kinda like what Rove did in Fla, only a much grander scale and with our tax dollars.)

put time money and effort into "helping" out this protest. The Ukrainian candidate heartened by our bipartisan support fought the outcome.

Maybe we should get that Democratic party fronted organization to assist in our elections? Instead of tax money we gave to the Ukraine we might even donate to that worthy cause.

While they bought democracy overseas for hegemony wars they sold us down the river to suppress democracy here. I don't think the people count for much in either country. Different flavors of suckers, them orange and us non-sweetened flavorless.

There is something beyond seriously wrong when you find yourself having to agree with Putin, dictators and terrorists on points concerning our hypocritical policies.

United Pharisees of Mammon. I can see the superparty merging like Time Warner-AOL now.

...and complaining to the choir?

Put another way, wish in one hand and shit in the other, and see which one weighs more.

Put another way, I hope you achieved a degree of satisfaction from posting this, but a careful scan reveals not one iota of suggested solutions. In other words, you're doing what you are complaining about, but with more bitterness.

There are lots of people working on this in Ohio, and there is something to be said for people here making the media aware of what is happening.

Pissed off is good, solutions are better.

Probably not, because you'd be pissed off and powerless too. And like I said elsewhere, I don't see these so-called "negative posts" as unproductive. They each express anger in different ways, with some nuances, and they help others to refine, broaden, deepen their own anger, thus coooling it off and giving it more structure. And that's where the "solutions" come from. Not from some sort of neutral, Vulcan-like reflection. Or from some sort of compulsive cheer-leading. Or from some sort of busy-body activism. So if this guy feels like yelling, that's fine by me, it helps me and it makes him feel better. Solutions? You can't know where the solutions will come from.

we had some of the largest rallies in history leading up to the war, there was a huge gathering in NYC just this past August 29th to protest the * administration at their disgraceful hateweek convention at Madison Square Garden.

I think there is going to be a huge demonstration on January 6th in DC. I'll be attending that one, I agree the one on January 20th, will be symbolic, the idea of turning backs on His Fraudulency is great, but it will be too late by then.

I think a lot of people are hoping that this can play out with the recounts in Ohio, Arnebeck's lawsuit (has it been refiled), and Kerry's filing objections to Blackwell's tactics in Ohio courts. They are watching and waiting, then they will take to the streets. I guess I just don't believe the American people are pussies. I think that's what * and his flying monkey brigade believe or want us to believe.

I've always thought that the most dangerous thing about * is not that he's stupid, but that he thinks we are, and acts accordingly. We are not, that's why probably close to 70% of Americans did not vote for him (of course 20% of those votes were stolen).

We might be preaching to the converted on this site, but the armies of the converted are growing everyday. I personally send out an average of 100 emails a day to others who voted for Kerry and might not be aware of what's going on, since it's not reported in the media.

The ship has sailed.

Where were the hundred thousand on the street in Ohio? Huh? I saw the photo-the biggest protest was like 400, the one a few days ago was dozens.

Where's the Dean Machine now? Huh-he could have sent his Deaniancs there. Oh yeah, I forgot-he's busy making speeches.

Ohio is a long way away from me. But if I lived there-I would have been out in the streets. I posted something about this a month ago. Go to Ohio now. But it didn't happen.

Where's Move On? Michael Moore? Huh? Where is the million voters march? Huh? Is anbody in the streets?

Cause you know what people-people in the streets makes a photo op-which makes the MSM faster than any lawsuit.

And yeah, it is surely partly Kerry's fault-without a leader-well we are on our own.

Skinner and some us were frigging fired up to go to Ohio or at least help in the wee hours of November 3rd!!!!

But the ship has sailed.

And we are alone because there aren't enough of us together.