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CUYAHOGA COUNTY (CLEVELAND) RECOUNT RESULTS 11/18

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bones_7672 Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 10:11 AM
Original message
CUYAHOGA COUNTY (CLEVELAND) RECOUNT RESULTS 11/18
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/110336613519171.xml

"John Kerry picked up 17 votes and George W. Bush lost six in Cuyahoga County's presidential recount.

That means the county still went for Kerry giving him 448,503 votes compared with 221,600 for Bush.

Cuyahoga was among 45 of Ohio's 88 counties that completed recounts by Friday, according to the Associated Press. Numbers for the two major candidates changed little, though.

Bush added 303 votes to his state total; Kerry gained 443. The higher numbers were due mainly to hanging chads falling from ballot cards, the Associated Press reported."
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's going to be a long road
to overturn this election at this speed.
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Inside story from the recounters
Here is a report that I got via a regional coordinator for the Green Party recount process. I am on a list to get updates, and I asked if I could forward some of these reports. My opinion: the election officials know that if we compare the signature books with the tallies, we will find substantial differences.



This is Jen Frigolette, coordinator in Cuyahoga County. We started our recount today, Thursday December 16, 2004. I have started composing a long description of what transpired, but it occurs to me now that I no longer have the capacity to finish in such detail.

So I want to get to you at least tonight/this morning a brief summary of what happened. (And as I am cutting and pasting now I realize that it is not quite so brief)

The recount process started out very smoothly. Our witnesses were instructed to arrive by 8am, when the mandatory BoE orientation would take place for all witnesses. There was a bit of a line, which I was near the end of at 8am. We were all directed to the media room, and at about 8:15am everyone was seated and the orientation began. We were each given a schedule with a brief description of what the recount would look like. The witness instructions were given with a description of the schedule, and then there was a question and answer period.

They explained that we would be following standard procedure for all county recounts. These rules had been signed off on by the County Prosecutor’s Office, of which a representative was present. Some of the important rules were the following:

Witnesses could not use cell phones, video or audio recording devices. Any witness found with recording devices would be immediately escorted out, with the ability to be replaced by a different witness. (of the same candidate).

All witnesses would receive a copy of the sheet stating the hand recount vote totals for each candidate in their precinct, as well as the computer count.

In the computer/tabulation room, we were allowed to have 2 groups of the five candidate witnesses. One group could watch the computer screen, while the other could witness the remakes of any ballots.

At the time of the orientation, Jacqui Maiden stated that there will be no visual inspection of the remaining 600,000-some ballots in the county.

Only ballots with holes punched through, with 2 or less chads remaining would be counted. Dimpled chads would not be counted, even if the entire ballot was dimpled chads.

Backward ballots should have already been remade but there were teams available to remake them if any additional were found.

Precinct selection was done on the basis of: only choosing precincts with 550 or more votes, and a cross-section of areas?one East side, one West side, one affluent, one non-affluent.

In response to the question “How are the ballots in order?” Jacqui Maiden’s response was “How they come out of the machine.”

The staff allowed questioning until there were more questions, and then they gave us a few minutes to organize our volunteers before the recount started.

At the beginning of the day, reports were that the process was going more smoothly and faster than expected. People arrived at our meeting room starting around 11am because they had finished couting their precincts at that time.

The actual 3% hand recount was finished by around 3pm, in my estimation. I can double-check this time. When this was completed, a Bush-Cheney representative (coordinator or attorney?) anounced that all the Bush-Cheney witnesses were free to leave, as there was nothing left to be discovered in the precinct log books. The precinct log books were then distributed, in alphabetical order, for the witnesses to check.

Anomalies were found. Almost all of the witnesses that I spoke with felt that the ballots were not in random order, that they had been previously sorted. There would be long spurts of votes for only one candidate and then long spurts for another, which seemed statistically improbable to most.

From what they were able to get through, witnesses found that signature counts were very much different from the official recorded number of ballots.

There was some confusion around 4pm, as volunteers started to wonder the importance of going through the signature log books of every single precinct. At this time Dora Rose was back and forth on the phone with Don McTigue and apparently submitting specific precincts of the log books that we wanted to check. After some confusion and then apparently a decision made by Michael Vu (the director of our BoE), per Dora Rose’s request, the alphabetical log books were taken away from witnesses, and replaced with only the log books of the 3% hand-recounted precincts, in addition to about 30 of the specifically-requested precincts. The volunteers began examining these log books.

Around 5:30pm, Attorney and Democrat Coordinator Dora Rose, Attorney and Green/Lib reps. George Taylor and Candice Hoke, the Bush Cheney attorney and Coordinator, and the Board of Directors met to discuss the process and what they were allowing for tomorrow.

When I returned to the security desk, a BoE staff person came up to me, in a frustrated voice, and told me that “The volunteers are done looking through the logbooks, and they want to go home. Can they leave now?” This woman was probably 5’1, African-American, with glasses on. She was wearing a green top. Unfortunately, I don’t know her name (it was suggested possibly Rosie) I can find out tomorrow. In my observation, the volunteers looked idle, but I foolishly did not go into the room and consult with each of them to definitively ascertain this.

I was concerned for the morale of the volunteers, in addition to the fact that many of them had been there for hours and were very tired. I didn’t want them to have to stay any longer, wasting their time and the Board of Elections time and money, if they were in fact done looking at the logbooks, since there was no further task they were instructed to do after that.

I interrupted the meeting with the attorneys and the Board, stating that our volunteers had completed their task and had nothing left to do. I asked if there was anything else the Board was allowing them to look at at that point. The woman with the blond hair and bangs (Gwen?) told me that there was nothing else, and that they would “release them” as soon as the meeting was done. I asked if our volunteers were free to leave, and she said yes. I returned to the room and asked Turo to make the announcement that if they were finished, any volunteers were free to leave, but before he and I could finish speaking, the board and attorneys returned to the room and made the announcement that they were finished for the day, instructing everyone to go home. I did not find out until conversation later that night that in fact many of the tables were NOT actually finished looking through the logbooks.

Tomorrow (Friday) the schedule is from 8am-5pm, with an hour break for lunch between noon and 1pm. The task for tomorrow is to inspect the voting machines of all 1400-some precincts, to make sure that the rotation of the ballots and the voting booklet of all the precincts match up. If they do not match up, there will be a form to fill out, and all the ballots from that precinct will need to be remade.

There is still discussion of a full visual inspection of the remaining ballots, or at least the under and over votes for President, but I did not have the final word on that last night. I also did not get the final word on whether or not the hand count and machine count for all of the 3% precincts added up, but I assume they did since I have not heard differently.

Other observations:

I was disappointed with the way many of the Board of Elections staff were treating the entire process. I instructed my volunteers, in emails and in person, to be nothing but cordial and respectful to the BoE staff. In our training that we made mandatory for any witnesses, Attorney and Law Professor Candice Hoke explained that the BoE staff are very tired?they have been working too long hours for too long, and haven’t had a break. She emphasized that we need to be conscientious and unflinching in our scrutinization, but also very understanding that these people are tired and probably stressed out. I was proud to see that our volunteers were being respectful. Unfortunately, as the day progressed I cannot say the same for all of the BoE staff.

For a good portion of the afternoon, I was stationed outside of the security desk, where I could see the entire room. I didn’t want to be confined to one witness table, and am not an attorney. We were instructed that only the candidate (if he or she chooses to show up) and the candidate’s attorney are allowed to circulate around the room, while the 20 witnesses must stay seated at the tables. I did not realize at this time that I could act as the candidate’s representative and circulate. Dora Rose explained this to me later.

At or around the security desk, there were about 2-3 security guards in this area at all times, and probably 1-2 BoE staff as well. The officer from the Sherriff’s Department and I struck up a friendly conversation. The BoE staff “gatekeepers” were often too busy to talk. As the afternoon progressed into late afternoon, I started hearing (firsthand) the negative comments. A staff person who had been observing for awhile said something like “This is madness--why can’t they get over it?” and “we need to stop working on this election and move on.”

After I started circulating around the room, I heard firsthand the questions and comments to our witnesses. “Why are you looking at the signature books? You aren’t going to find anything in them.”

I am very young and un-official looking, so I don’t think any of them realized that I was the coordinator. They were making these comments in a loud voice, as if to no one at all, but in my impression with the definite intention for me (and anyone in the general vicinity) to hear their disgust). This is unacceptable behavior. I understand that all the staff are tired and overworked. However, this is no excuse to be continually making derogatory comments to those citizens and taxpayers who are exercising their legal rights. If it is their personal opinion that the recount is unnecessary and somehow wasteful, then they have the right to express it, in a personal setting. But when they are making these comments in public, acting as an employee of the BoE, these statements become nothing short of intimidation.

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bones_7672 Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. thanks for the update. n/t
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thank you for your work. I'd like to respond to the BOE whiners and
say, "Well, democracy is "hard work" and it's "tough" but we have to "stay the course." It's not a good idea to switch political systems in them middle of an election.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hard work, this democracy stuff
That's funny, smellgood. You keep spreading it, not only is it humorous, it's the truth.
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thanks for the update
Sounds like you, and all the volunteers, are doing a great job!

Keep us posted.
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Wish I were a Ohio volunteer
Actually, just to set the record straight, I am not a volunteer in Ohio, though I can see how you might read that into what I said. I am in MA, communicating with a few of the coordinators, and I will relay your message. I would also like to thank all the volunteers, and I only wish I could help more.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Whoops! I meant post #7 as a reply to you, but it came out as a reply
to the original message. Please excuse my clumsiness.
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Dcitizen Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Report to Dora, Don McTigue & press conference.
Public opinion has the right to know unmatched signatures of the recounted ballots.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Did anyone ask about the # of votes punched for DISQUALIFIED?
I understand that the Cuyahoga counting program does not even tally ballots with holes punched for DISQUALIFIED. Did the recount tally such 'nonvotes'?

The total number of votes cast for president in Cuyahoga was 673,766, according to http://serform2.sos.state.oh.us/sos/results/2004/gen/pres.htm
But the number of votes cast overall in Cuyahoga was 687,260, according to http://serform2.sos.state.oh.us/sos/results/2004/gen/voterTurn.htm
This leaves a difference of 13,494 . How many of these were votes for DISQUALIFIED?

Without data on these "nonvotes", Disqualified might remain a "black hole" into which many thousands of votes intended for Kerry may have disappeared.

I'm particularly concerned about what might have happened when there were obstructions at the bottom of the ballot card-slot, or when for other reasons voters could not push the ballot "all the way down" as instructed. For every ballot rotation position except the one where DISQUALIFIED comes first and KERRY comes last, votes intended for Kerry well could have been mispunched for Disqualified. This is because it just so happens that Disqualified was the ballot postion immediately below Kerry in 80 percent of precincts!

Without information on punches for DISQUALIFIED, we don't have any idea of the upper limit of votes intended for Kerry that were punched for DISQUALIFIED. In another thread, a poster reported that exit poll frequencies for Nader were nil, so DISQUALIFIED couldn't have been much of a protest vote for Nader.

With precinct-level tallies of punches for Disqualified, we could see whether the 20 percent of precincts with Disqualified at the top ballot position had significantly fewer punches for disqualified than the other 80 percent in pro-Kerry areas. Such a statistical finding would be consistent with substantial miscounting of votes intended for Kerry.
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dlaliberte Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Disqualified candidate is not on radar
Here is a reply to your query, from one of the county coordinators:


Disqualified was NOT something noticed on any of the instructions I was
given to look for as a County Coordinator. I never even knew such a ballot
rotation entry called disqualified was possible.

Will someone please explain ..

All under-over votes in POrtage checked out, as clear non votes for any
candidate, or double punches thus nullifying both candidates. But this new
category concerns me.. and I have a report of all precinct by precinct.for
the 4 candidates considered in the Presidential slot, ballot rotation was
checked precinct by precinct in the tabulation machine.. yet never for this
category.. Does it really exist?

Not alot in Portage county for over/under just a few per precinct, but if
there is another layer to examine... someone please tell me quickly before
BOE staff breaks for Christmas. Next week they will already be on short
staff schedules for holiday vacations, and by Ohio law I cannot look at
this stuff w/out a Board of Elections employee present.. if they don't have
the staff.. they will be reluctant .

Lea

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chitown Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Portage County
The disqaulifed position on the ballot had to do with the uncertainty of whether ralph nader was on the ballot or not. At first he was on the ballot then was taken off so his name was replaced with disqaulified.

In Cuyahoga County the disqualifed position appeared but Portage County wasn't won of those counties.

Some counties had Nader's name taken off, some left Nader's name on the ballot, and some had time to get his name taken off.


In Portage County only the four candidates names that were on the ballot appeared.

I called up a friend at Kent State University to confirm this.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks for the responsive post, and WELCOME to DU!
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. The Cuyahoga ballot template at this URL clearly shows "Disqualified"
as a ballot line in the Presidential race: http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/ballots/pdf/CLEVE04F.pdf

Official correspondence explaining that the Cuyahoga counting program did not even tally this possible "black hole" for Kerry votes is posted at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=166913&mesg_id=172727&page= . It's from Michael Vu, director of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections.

Another poster on another thread asserted that the Cuyahoga ballot had "double-wide" lines for President, so that each candidate's name straddled TWO chads. The lead message in that thread, at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x176358 , is a 2001 news story about a study of punchcard misalignment in Florida, where the lines for President also apparently were double-wide in 2000.

Were your ballot lines double-wide for president. If so, what happened when people did not push the ballot all the way down in the holder, and the chad immediately below a candidate's name was removed? Did your counting program count either of TWO chads as valid vor any candidate on a double-wide line?

Is it possible such invalid ballots were simply DISCARDED rather than saved as nonvotes? When hundreds or thousands of people punch out chads, at least a few of them are bound to remove chads that do not register for any candidate. Where are those ballots? Why would they not be a distinct category for any recount?
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Bingo!
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 12:46 PM by Zan_of_Texas
Without data on these "nonvotes", Disqualified might remain a "black hole" into which many thousands of votes intended for Kerry may have disappeared.

This is very important, especially in buildings where more than one precinct voted, with different ballot order (Cobb Badnarik Kerry Disqualified vs Badnarik Kerry Disqualified Cobb) and may have mixed up the ballots, reading them on the machine for the other precinct.

Somehow the recount folks need to get access to the numbers of "disqualified" votes.

It seems they automatically tally them as ZERO, when that is not the real number of votes that DID fall into that black hole.

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Lil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I assisted in Allen Country Recount
They are only counting the precincts they have choosen rather then a random sample, they have it all figured out in the counties of Ohio, they are sand bagging us all with the set ups that they are controlling. I helped in the recount of Ohio and they only let us look at the precincts that they choose to let us research, they did not do a random selection as they were suppose to, nor did they let us look at the polling books, absentees and provisional ballots which would have helped us with verifing totals recorded by the counties. The Director where I assisted told us in fact that he did not want to use to many machines in the recount and wanted the closes precincts that would total to the 3% needed for the recount. This was a little fishy but along with this the poll workers who were helping in the recount effort did not seem to know how to take care of any problems concerning the scanners. After working the polls on election day you would think that they would be more then a little effienct with the machines but they were not. In fact, they complained about having to even do the recount and acted like it was a total waste of time and effort not that this was a Democracy at work. In fact they were upset to the point that they kept asking if this was the last time they would have to do any recounting since it was such a waste of time and effort, a very negative additude towards a recount for sure. The Deputy Director had to keep coming over to fix the machines for them, now how would this work during election day ??

The Director and Board also told us that if the voter did not vote in two federal electons sequencely that the voter would be dropped off of the registion list. This I found to be very disheartening but along with this issue I also saw overvotes where a voter had mark a candidate but then also wrote in the same candidate but this vote was not counted even though it was obvious to all who they were voting for, it was Bush, boo, but still it was an uncounted vote. We were told that there were not many of these kinds of votes and not to worry about them anyway, I was upset at the casual way these votes were dismissed by this board. I told them perhaps I was a little extreme but if a vote was obvious why not count it, and they had no answer for me but because the machine could not read it, how many other obvious votes were not counted because a machine could not count it ?? How many voters could not vote though they had not moved because they did not vote in the last two federal elections ?? Are these not examples of voter disenfranhisement ?? After my experiences these last few weeks, I am aware I do not live in a Democracy but a dictatorship of the many officials who run these elections for us right up to the top of the Republican party because they make up the rules. Are we going to allow this to continue and put flowers on the bed of Democracy's grave or fight to bring her up from the dead ??? I hope it is as obvious to you as it has become to me that our elections are manipulated by these self serving individuals.

Finally, I had forgotten my purse and I had to drive back to get it. When I went into the
Room where we had done all the counting of the ballets it all looked like it did when I left with one new piece. The tapes from the scanner were sitting on the top of the table under which my purse laid. I looked around and there were no election officials to be seen. I could have picked them both up and walked right out of the room with them. Just how secure is that for you, election tape for recount out in the open for all to obtain, hmmmmm. Oh well as they would say, just another day in the neighbor.

I am one deeply concerned American Citizen.
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Isn't the difference significant?
While I'm interested in the signature books, I'm also curious about the significance of the numbers.

In one county, Kerry gains 140 votes after 3% of of the vote is counted. If you try to ascertain how many votes this would mean for the entire county, it seems you would multiply 140 times 33, to get a total of 4620 if all the ballots were hand counted IN THAT ONE COUNTY. This, of course, assumes that the 3% counted were representative random samples.

If you multiply the 4620 figure by the inverse of the fraction of the total state population that Cuyahoga represents, you would get the potential Kerry gain for the state. This would likely be many tens of thousands (no population figures at hand, no time). Someone should do this.

Thee 3% random samples for the county may not be representative of the whole county or state because they tried to get a sample each from the east side, west, side and a non-affluent area. Are these three areas representative of the demographics of the entire county? Doubtful.

This reminds me of the Florida recount done by some journalists. They reported some "minor" discrepancies, but if you multiplied out the statewide consequences, the implication was that Kerry gained significantly. Haven't heard a thing about this since.
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jmknapp Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. Recount precincts -- spreadsheet
Here's a spreadsheet listing the precincts that were recounted, along with the official results:

http://copperas.com/cuyahoga/cuyahogarecount.xls

None of the precincts that were subject to ballot shuffles were in the sample.
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MarkusQ Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. And in a random sample that seems somewhat unlikely...

About 3% chance, if I'm remembering the numbers correctly (note: mental calculation based on remembered numbers by a man holding an infant and his first cup of coffee).

Not that it matters, since we know they did not choose the 3% randomly as required by law.

--MarkusQ

P.S. If the co-located precincts were also the smaller precincts (on average) the odds against them being excluded from a random sellection are even higher.
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