A.N.S.W.E.R. is losing me...

Why can't we democrats stay focused on the fucking issue at hand? Why am I listening to someone griping about Palestine right now, when across the mall OUR OWN COUNTRY is being stolen by a notorious crime family?

We will never get anywhere this way. This is why the republicans kick our ass every time...they know what middle America cares about...their own self interests, NOT those of the Palestinians. Let's fight for rights all over the world, sure. But can't we start on the shores of the Potomac?

on edit...oh, and for chrissake...stop with the silly rhyming chants!

and I was thinking the exact same thing.

Every time they show up, they help to marginalize the true Progressive movement with their focus on fringe issues.

Not that the Palestinian situation isn't important. But ANSWER has a way of making us all look like kooks, when we should be getting out our very clear messages on core issues.

the anti-bush/anti war movement in Manhattan was the same way after we invaded iraq...it was, "Well we couldn't stop bush, so lets just go after the Israel/Palestine problem..." and thats why i stopped. I don't care as much about other peoples problems when we have HUGE ones of our own. Isn't it more important for us to fight against repukes, bush, his evil war, fight for education here, against poverty here, etc., instead of getting involved with other peoples shit?

can't we get ourselves straightened out a bit before we try to fix other peoples?

pretty sad actually.

of Palestine waaay before the Iraq war was even an issue. And there again, for the Iraq war, they were at the forefront, pioneering the protests. The injustice in Palestine is directly related to the injustice in Iraq.

....but our dismal record in our foreign policy should be pointed out regardless of what the stupid half of the country thinks about it.

childish, they make us look foolish.

And THAT ANSWER function was what awaited me I would have been pissed...

When I watch old footage of freedom marches, I see a bunch of average people in assorted dress looking pissed but acting serious.

I don't see a bunch of acrobats, jugglers mimes and clowns--people stripping etc.

The Dem reps can't even get involved with these things because they are so oddball.

The whackier side of these protests has taken over and the media just loves to show this to the public.

All this type of crap marginalizes the fact that at least half of the country cannot stand bush and doesn't want his sorry ass in office for good reason!

ARRRRRRGGGHHHHH!

Those groups have their own agenda's. In this case, they are anti-bush like us, but dont doubt for a second that they have bigger agenda's.

Alot of those groups, I feel, are simply anti-american.
Thats one reason the Repugs try to group us all into the same basket, so they can point and say "see! Judge them by the company they keep".

Frankly, I have never been anti-american, anti-military (well, not after, say, 1980), and have been a democrat since I stayed up passed midnight and cried with my dad as we saw Nixon win in 1968.

But I dont trust those other groups, I think they protested Clinton as well all the time.

F8ck them really.
They got their own bones to pick.
Let em pick on their own.

but I'm glad they organize these things. I've been to two of their other marches.

If the Democratic party would take a more oppositional stance and mobilize its own members, ANSWER would not have to take the lead on things like the counter-inauguration.

I'm even more ashamed of the DNC/DLC...our entire party. It has lost me in the past few months.

but not exactly ashamed. I agree with most of what they say, especially in foreign affairs. They seem to think that cranking up the volume and the rhetoric makes them more effective. It usually justs wipes out mainstream support. But they're the only show in town, I don't hesitate to go to one of their functions.

Now before someone rips me a new ass...hear me out--

The protest TODAY should be about Bush and only Bush.

We have an asshole in office AGAIN and will have to deal with *IT* for another four years.

I don't want to hear about freaking Cuba, or Haiti, or any of these other side issues today.

I want to hear about how bush lied to get us into a war, fucked up before and after 911, how he has all but robbed the treasury blind and lastly I want to hear about how we cannot even begin to conduct a fair election in this country to get rid of a tyrant like him because THERE IS NO PAPER TRAIL!

As far as I am concerned we don't even know that he won
(How could we?)

The reason we can't get more people out in the streets (like in the Ukraine) is because once they get out there, there are these weird demonstrations like the one I just watched by ANSWER.

JMO- flame away!

the tabulators. THey weren't able to look at the paper trail that WAS there in OH when they did the "recount". paper trails aren't going to help at all if they continue to rig it so there are wide margine and then violate many election laws in conducting the recount so you never even get to LOOK at the paper trail. FRankly I think we need to forget pushing for a paper trail and just demand hand counted paper BALLOTS.

You are probably right--I don't know which needs to be done,
but I do know that POS was not duly elected and I am extremely pissed!

Eh, they can protest anything they want. As long as somone brings up (1) the War in Iraq, and the lies that got us there, (2) the war on reproductive rights, (3) the war on human rights (e.g. gay rights, immigration rights), and (4) people being plunged into poverty right and left, with lack of health care, etc., I'm good.

I stand proud. Whenever someone talks about who I hang around with, I let 'em know that we are a big tent, and that's the point. We're not rigid, attempting to force our religious and lifestyle beliefs down someone else's throat. We are inclusive, and we come together for common goals.

Pay attention to discussion of the Palestinian problems; just don't pay attention to the pomp and circumstance. Don't give Chimpy any ratings.

Don't you realize what the OTHER reason is for the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Don't you realize why 9/11 happened?

Have you never read the Project for a New American Century?

Do you know about Armageddonists, Bush, the NeoCons, and Israel's rightwing government?

Don't you realize how close Palestine, Israel and Iraq are? It's as if we had a wall around San Diego, in CA, and confined all the Mexican-Americans and Mexicans to that zone, and shot at them occasionally, and killed some, and bulldozed any homes they might have built outside of San Diego...

Palestine is WHAT'S HAPPENING in the Middle East--from the point of view of all Arabs and Muslims. That's what it's all about.

If YOU were a Mexican-American, and the above was the condition of your people, or you were their advocate, wouldn't you be a bit shrill?

And don't think it can't happen here.

Until we deal with the Israel-Palestine issue, in the most just way that can be arranged, there will be no peace in the Middle East, no peace for us, and no peace in the world.

And I'm afraid that the attitude that this is NOT the issue comes straight out of the BushCon lapdog media. Really, think about this. Think where your information about Palestine is coming from--from warmongers and war profiteers.

Don't get me started about Venezuela. Bush is going to start a goddamned war in South America to get that oil. Mark my words. And destroy yet another new and quite beautiful democracy that has been created by the poorest people in the hemisphere. My heart is breaking to think of it.

I weep when I think of what these monsters have in mind. I am crying...now!

Are we progressives? Are we human rights advocates here? Are we so blind?

A.N.S.W.E.R. did. A million people against the invasion of Iraq and the slaughter of more than 100,000 people. They organized it! It was them! One of the few shining moments in this most horrible of nightmares....

...shrill...?

I am just overcome, and ashamed of us.

Bu$hco wants Venezualan oil!

As far as I am concerned 911 and Iraq and whatever other criminal enterprise bush and his cohorts are involved in, comes down to one thing -- cash.

The whole neo-con "bigger picture ideology" deal is a ruse...they have no plan to spread freedom, or Christianity, start the end times, expand Israel, do away with Israel (depending on who you listen to)...it's all bullshit to play to their various factions.

The position bush has put this planet in doesn't have jack to do with ideology it's all about his wallet and his friends wallets.

George bush is all about cash--this admin is all about cash/period.

They are going to strip this country of every damned dime and break it... for whoever is paying them to do it.

Do you mean to tell me that if our wonderful President works out a sucessful peace plan between Israel and the Palestinians that everything will be rosy and good?

I don't think so.

The MAIN problem in the world is Bush being the leader of the US-
not the middle east.

Most insurgents at least try to target occupation forces, but do at times accidentally kill innocent civilians. But your beloved "victims" in the Middle East deliberately send their young children with bombs on their backs to weddings. They are fucking animals.

Shalom. You get to let off some steam, but at what cost?

The British called my ancestors "fucking animals." What good did it do them? They lost their entire Empire.

If we can't get past these tribal and religious hatreds, the the constant reiteration of pain, suffering and revenge, humanity is over. Fini. Kaput. End of us. End of history.

Just becasue they oppose Bush does not mean that they share our values.

...and exactly right.

issues are War/Peace and Human Rights and Justice Issues. They are very effective at obtaining permits and organizing demonstrations. Without them you wouldn't be seeing a Counter-Inaugural.

Their speakers are sometimes shrill and not to everyone's taste..but they provide a way for Dems and other disenfranchised to be heard. So don't be too hard on them.

Maybe 100 people on the courthouse steps. Individuals would get up and speak their outrage. Just regular people, no affiliations, one after the other.

NW Cable News truck showed up and the reporters inside just waited for about 20 minutes. Finally, a speaker for the communist party arrived and spoke. The cable news whores got out and filmed him while he spoke, maybe 3 minutes. He finished, the cable guys loaded up their truck and drove away.

They got what they came for.

That we should go back to the '50s and start purging government-labeled "subversives" from our ranks?

Not let people speak freely?

Whose fault is it that the lapdog media picks out the most easily scapegoated speaker?

The speaker's?

Yours, for permitting him to speak?

Or????

confirmed. Many individuals spoke against the first coup. Very eloquently I might add. But the only one who got on the news was the communist. Not the democrats, not the greens, not any moderate.
The frame was "protesting Bush is something only a communist would do", not something an average american would ever do.

Of course the communist gets to speak too. No one there denied him that right, or booed him or anything else to prevent him from exercising his right. My quarrel is he was the one shown on the news, and they waited for him to arrive and left with him.
It was weird that he just came to say his piece and didn't stay for the rally or to listen to the other speakers, so perhaps I should include him in my suspicions.

It is also true that the socialists and the communists know thet'll get the spotlight, and always have the biggest banners in the protest marches. FWIW, I don't have a problem with either, I would just like to see my opinion represented on the news as well.

Also, I am not really talking about C-Span, they do a great job showing the action as it happens, and not distilling it down to B/W simplistic stereotypes for easy digestion. For the most part.
But this thread reminded me of my experience from 2000, so I mentioned it.

Sorry for not being quite clear, my quarrel is with the news whores, the point of my post is to inform people that this is how they operate. Most people already know this, but some newbies might not.

For all I know there are anti-fraud speakers at the protests, and if there are and they make it to mainstream news I'll be amazed.

Edited to add: did you mean for your post to sound so snotty? It's hard to tell with text and no voice or facial expressions. I hope not, I usually appreciate your posts.

They may not stick to the talking points that you feel are most important, but I think it totally rocks that it's getting this much coverage. In fact, I'm completely blown away.

While I would prefer more coverage on the election fraud, this is still very important, and good to see...

making mass protest happen in DC and elsewhere today.

I wrote about the A.N.S.W.E.R problem yesterday on my blog. Can we find some "mainstream progressive" (how's that for an oxymoron) leadership?

The post:
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001382.html

enough support and coordination. ANSWER is there for their cause - anti-war. We need an Anti-fraud coaltion, with money, and members who will actually show up.

One thing at the time.

getting all the separate groups united and standing together instead of so spread out and dispersed.

He spoke to why they are covering so many issues, saying "we have a lot of issues with George Bush" - and although it seems like a lot of issues, it's fundamentally all about human rights and getting the people together to speak in one voice so to be heard.

I agree.

The ANSWER coalition was able to get a reserved spot on the parade route. You've got to have some kind of infrastructure/organizational coordination to be on top of things.

I watched the CNN tape for 2-3 hours. Yes, the chants are a little irritating, but these folks are trying to join our voices.

What the tape emphasized to me was our need for a leader. Dr. King was the lightning rod for the civil rights movement. We are in need of a person or personality to lead us in the right direction as a group.

Who is that person? Any ideas?

Attie

solidarity we need to get rid of the kleptocrats is GLOBAL. Every house bulldozed in Palestine, every land grab in Venuezuela, every embargo bought against Cuba affects each of us pretty directly. And any government willing to do or to sign off on those things is willing to do the same to its own people.

That would be us.

There are just too many issues flying around at the same time - a quarter of which I agree with, a quarter of which I vehemently disagree with and half of which I either have no opinion on or don't even understand.

As somebody who is more of a social democrat, I find Stalinists to be scary.

I agree. We do need to worry about the world, but Americans mostly care about their own selves. We have to address their needs. That's not to say that Americans are most selfish than others. I think most of the world is this way.

n/t

This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country’s “socialist system,” which, according to the party’s newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”

Officially, the organizer of the Washington demonstration was International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism). But ANSWER is run by WWP activists, to such an extent that it seems fair to dub it a WWP front. Several key ANSWER officials — including spokesperson Brian Becker — are WWP members. Many local offices for ANSWER’s protest were housed in WWP offices. Earlier this year, when ANSWER conducted a press briefing, at least five of the 13 speakers were WWP activists. They were each identified, though, in other ways, including as members of the International Action Center.

The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner with ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic. The international war-crimes tribunal, he explains, “is war by other means” — that is, a tool of the West to crush those who stand in the way of U.S. imperialism, like Milosevic. A critic of the ongoing sanctions against Iraq, Clark has appeared on talking-head shows and refused to concede any wrongdoing on Saddam’s part. There is no reason to send weapons inspectors to Iraq, he told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “After 12 years of brutalization with sanctions and bombing they’d like to be a country again. They’d like to have sovereignty again. They’d like to be left alone.”

It is not redbaiting to note the WWP’s not-too-hidden hand in the nascent anti-war movement. It explains the tone and message of Saturday’s rally. Take the question of inspections. According to Workers World, at a party conference in September, Sara Flounders, a WWP activist, reported war opponents were using the slogan “inspections, not war.” Flounders, the paper says, “pointed out that ‘inspections ARE war’ in another form,” and that she had “prepared party activists to struggle within the movement on this question.” Translation: The WWP would do whatever it could to smother the “inspections, not war” cry. Inspections-before-invasion is an effective argument against the dash to war. But it conflicts with WWP support for opponents of U.S. imperialism. At the Washington event, the WWP succeeded in blocking out that line — while promoting anti-war messages more simpatico with its dogma.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1031-08.htm

--and do the work. Don't like ANSWER? Then get another group together to do big demonstrations.

Yes, it was the cheerleading squad that got to me. I watched some of it last night and got to the point that I was hitting the mute button everytime "Ms. Chant Leader" headed towards the podium.

Like the Free Software Foundation's chant when they protested the 'look and feel' lawsuit. I think it's the world's first, and probably only, hexadecimal protest chant.

1-2-3-4
Toss the lawyers out the door
5-6-7-8
Innovate, don't litigate
9-A-B-C
1-2-3 is not for me
D-E-F-0
'Look and feel' has got to go!