very interesting question to Tom Hayden by Avram Friedman

quote from last part of
http://www.friedman-sun.com/inaug/jan20.htm

I sat in on a classroom where Tom Hayden was speaking to a group of about thirty-five people, outlining political strategies for taking back the government.  Yes, Tom Hayden, one of the Chicago Eight, who stood trial for organizing the demonstrations outside the Democratic Convention in 1968 with Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Bobby Seale, David Dellinger and others.  He was one of my role models in life. Now, however he was advocating for a more conventional course of action, winning elections and influencing government officials through lobbying efforts.

I broke through the wall of personal awe, built up within myself over the years, to ask him a question in front of the entire class. "Many of us believe, I believe, that this past election was stolen and that if we can't effect meaningful election reform there will never be another free and fair election in this country. If the Republican leadership will not allow meaningful election reform to come to the floor for a vote, what can we do, as a minority party, to take back democracy and to effect needed change?"

He struggled with my question, saying essentially that without a "smoking gun" there was no sense in pursuing the problems of the last election (if I'm correctly interpreting him). Then he went on to reiterate that representatives and senators have to be contacted and educated to compel them to act. Finally, he said that if indeed the election was fraudulent it doesn't speak well to other countries around the world who we say we are trying to bring democracy to.

My initial feeling was that he didn't really answer my question and wasn't fully grasping the implications of an election process that had been electronically hijacked by the hoodlums in power. But, upon reflection, I realized that in his own way he was answering my question and I agree with part of his answer. The part I disagree with is that there is no smoking gun. If Hayden had been in Ohio during the recount he would realize there is a smoking gun under every rock. But, the part I agree with is equally important. Regardless of who is in power, if the progressive forces get organized and mobilized in this country they can force the issue. Although Hayden didn't quite put it this way, if I'm understanding him correctly, to broaden his logic to its natural extension, even dictators ultimately have to listen to organized masses if they want to stay in power and save their skins, figuratively or literally. Gandhi, King, Walesa, Dubchek, Aquino, the labor movement, the women's suffrage movement, the African American voting rights movement, the anti-Vietnam war movement-all examples of movements that have ultimately prevailed against oppressive and hostile leadership. So, now we have a high-tech, corrupt, Republican government. We can and will overcome that, too. In PDA there is the hope, energy, imagination and know-how.


Visit http://www.pdamerica.org/

supporters in the media and in politics are computer saavy enough to understand election fraud. Even Ted Koppel came out and said he didn't know anything about the internet. So, that could explain a lot why the old guard is not really being very helpful.

I say prove it to me.

themselves on the topic because they're afraid of computers or whatever, then they need to hire advisors and listen to them, or go.
And the people who do understand the problem need to step up.

Very good point. I've heard some discussions in the media that illustrated how poorly informed the "opinion makers" are. However, I think the idea of a machine being rigged or hacked is very easy to grasp, even if you do not understand how. The "paper ballots" reform will be easy to impose because anyone can easily grasp the idea "no paper-no way to know-no recount."

...during the "debate" over the Ohio delegates. I thought I heard him give as a reason that the election couldn't have been stolen the fact that Shrub is a "self-described computer nerd." Talk about clueless! I doubt Bush can even use a computer, much less surf the "Internets."

Computer Nerd my Foot. If Bush is a COMPUTER NERD.....I'm the Queen of England.

tools. That is said, because that is accepting a corporate role in our government and giving corporations more power than the people have. Definitely unacceptable. I think lobbyists should be banned. They are bought mouth pieces.

Relative to his "smoking gun" comment, I tend to agree with him. That does not mean that there was no fraud and that prove of fraud (in the cumulative, circumstantial and statistical) doesn' exist.

Before we can get our the corporate media whores to pay attention to the fraud, before we can get serious "prosecutorial" investigations in to the fraud, before we can get congressional hearings, we have to have a smoking gun, a dead body with their prints, a deep throat that tells all. Something so strong that cannot be ignored, something (like the WH tapes during watergate) that cannot be explained away.

That is just my honest opinion.

Waiting for a smoking gun and a dead body, because in this climate even the dead body can be explained away. (he died of natural causes when the bullet stooped his heart)and (i didn't kill him the bullet did)

But face it, most of the old guard sold out in exchange for money and power long ago, and now want to maintain the status quo, because they are it.

(love that splaining "he died of natural causes when the bullet stooped his heart").

I will never give up hope on this though. We have to keep at it!

Never Give up!

But we need to find a way to short out the doublespeak machine that cranks out the lies.
We cannot let the English language be used and abused in this way.

It could be very interesting --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x305634

Means reinventing the channels of influence you have to change the system to make the corrupt players have to re-evaluate their own methods.

Sorry repetitive...

Capitalism. Greed. Fear. Desire to keep one's place seemingly safe. Stupidity of the right wing. Blindness to reality

War in Iraq is dwarfed by global warming and peak oil and no one in government seems to care or have an idea. Energy culture and practice is so a part of the cultural world that to ask folks not to drive so much, to build smaller houses and cars, to grow their own food, etc.

We are basically f---ked unless we can create a serious revolution.

Election Fraud is a glaring symptom. Stupidity, arrogance, blindness of the right wing is a symptom.

Gosh I wish I could find a key. A symbol. Americans just don't want to give up comfort and habit and they are so dumbed down and so out of touch with even where their food comes from.

And leave them all behind looking like fools.
If I offered a transportation system to the public that would be almost 100% safe, eliminate the Jet plane as a mode of transport and cost the consumer only a fraction of what they now spend and take them anywhere in this country faster than we now can travel, do you think they would say NO WAY?
Only the ones that have investments in the present system as it is would object. And believe it or not this system was first purposed in 1969 by National Geographic Magazine. And at the end of the article they said it was almost certainly to be in place by the new century.
But no we are still using the most wasteful system just because it is profitable for them to keep it as is.
We need a revolutionary leader that will not ask if it is alright but insist on it and will not be bought off by the powerfully elite.

We need to jump over the fraud, move towards real verifiable mechanisms such as thumb prints on the ballots and serial numbers to make them unique. Put the money to maintain these BBV machines into a secure paper ballot and I think we would be saving money. This isn't rocket science; we all know complication breeds errors and failure.

Everything else is Maya, illusion.

I feel like people don't know of other ways. They are offered....and they are sold the wasteful by corporations only interested in profit. It is truly dangerous now. The answer may lie in both high tech and sort of back to the land movements all at the same time.

Plus reform of political/economic stranglehold.

The truth and ethics...not rhetoric and lies and co-opted moral values. And above all compassion in a very large sense.

Much like the banks use to send the deposits form the drive up lane.
But to see the real genius of this system you should find an old set of National Geographic and it was in one of them ether 1969 or 68, can't remember which. It should be easy to find sense it was the only time they ever dedicated an article to new tech.
And it is kind of funny also to note that the first subway system in NYC used this air pressure system. But it was only 2 blocks long and done
just as a demo project beneath the noeses of Tammany Hall.
But the author of this new system claimed that if it was properly built it could achieve speeds of 1500 miles per hour. Far better than a jet plane.

If they don't understand computers, how in hell can they understand to trust the damn things with their VOTE??

Is their "trust" so easily given up?? If so....trust me to hold your wallet, and all your credit cards and bank account numbers for the next 4 years!!

The Diebolds/ES&S/Triads, etc. of the world are COUNTING on the computer ignorance of those in power to ask them to "trust us to count your votes".

We can start out our letters to our congresscritters with:

"Do you really think the computer vote counting companies DON'T KNOW that you are ignorant about computers?"

....or something like that....

other DUers could word this better than I can, but you get my drift.

:kick::kick::kick:

"Do you really think the computer vote counting companies DON'T KNOW that you are ignorant about computers?"

Not just for congress but also as a flyer.

issue with all this crap. The first thing is shoot all the media. Our elected officials stand on the Senate floor and quote news articles! They are less informed than we...to a large degree. I'm only beginning to grasp Howard Dean's logic with 'grass roots', and having everyday people run for office. Money and power obviously have no positive influence on intellect. Every American needs to be informed. My sister, good democrat that she is, dose'nt have a clue, and why would she? Other than listening to my diatribe whenever she dares to call me, she hears NOTHING. And what she does manage to take in is convoluted. They are so busy just getting by, and its all so hard to get out in a phone call. (without her getting really worried about my sanity!)

just hit the remote on their tv set. He thinks Americans need to get into the streets with their anger in order to push for their votes to count. Just like the Ukrainians did. (I imagine the media did not do a lockdown in the Ukraine.) I would qualify that we did well hitting Senators' fax machines prior to the electoral college vote. WE need to keep that type of "fax tsunami" going.

"Then he went on to reiterate that representatives and senators have to be contacted and educated to compel them to act."

IT IS UP TO US. WE need to take this case to our representatives and senators. WE need to write them, make appointments with them, educate them and MAKE THEM listen and CHANGE this. We have to work WITHIN OUR OWN STATES. We have to work LOCALLY. That is how movements work. LOCAL action.

This raises an interesting question. What is the controlling law? In some states, could local governments determine election rules? T what extent?