Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Lehto: Vendors Commonly Refuse to Promise That Their Voting Machines Work

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:41 PM
Original message
Lehto: Vendors Commonly Refuse to Promise That Their Voting Machines Work
Edited on Mon Jun-12-06 10:46 PM by Wilms

E-voting Vendors Commonly Refuse to Promise That Their Voting Machines Work

(By contractually disclaiming “implied warranties” that are supposed to apply to all sales of goods under the Uniform Commercial Code)

By Paul R. Lehto, Attorney at Law (Washington State)
lehtolawyer@gmail.com

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: By their own admission in the words of their signed contracts with government agencies, voting machine vendors “disclaim” or refuse to stand behind their products. The voting machine vendors also refuse to promise that their products will work or that they will be fit even for ordinary uses or for any particular purpose that the vendor knows very well or has reason to know is the purpose for buying the machines. Because these “disclaimers of implied warranties” routinely appear in contracts to purchase voting machines, activists and government officials should not allow or approve such low standards to be brought into our election processes. This point is of sufficient strength and importance in making points concerning both the importance of elections as well as the low quality of voting machines that citizens may consider holding an “intellectual sit-in” so to speak and simply keep asking the question in different forms over and over again: How could the government agree to run our elections without obtaining a promise or warranty that the machines will work? How could the vendors think they should be allowed to present these kinds of risks to democracy if they’re not willing to stand behind their products 100%? Does this constitute recklessness? Corporate favors? What’s going on here?

Also discussed is the status when the implied warranties are disclaimed as above, but a short term limited warranty is provided in place of the implied warranties, which is still a woefully insufficient state of affairs for elections, which are supposed to be highly reliable “fail safe” events involving ballot collection and simple acts of addition. The FTC explains the implied warranty of merchantability (which vendors deny they are making when selling voting machines to our governmental officials, as follows:

“{The implied warranty of merchantability means that the goods} will do what they are supposed to do and that there is nothing significantly wrong with them. In other words, it is an implied promise that the goods are fit to be sold. The law says that merchants make this promise automatically every time they sell a product they are in business to sell.”
See http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm (click “understanding warranties” link, paragraph 4 in the “understanding warranties” section)
Voting machine vendors are most definitely “merchants” under the law. The following more extended discussion explains this in more detail, and suggests how citizens can use this law to frame questions and objections to voting machine sales.

snip

.pdf http://electionfraudnews.com/LegDoc/E-Voting_Vendors_Refuse_Promise_Machines_will_Work.pdf


Source:

ELECTION FRAUD NEWS

http://electionfraudnews.com/LegDoc/legal.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick-n-Recommended.......nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. This stuff ain't all that bad, thanks for posting! ; )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. That fish makes a lot of sharp points!

:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm finally getting to read this now
K&R and IOU comment
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You should lobby the American Bar Association
First of all, intellectual sit-in is genius.

In all seriousness, Paul, what would happen if you put together a dossier of briefs for each of the inventive legal cases you have envisioned regarding elections? Could you take such a collection of arguments to the Bar, or some other group whom I may not know, and cause them to act on the basis of some professional obligation to protect (restore) democracy and/or defend the rule of law and/or some other credo? I mean, all these arguments you bring up seem like such compelling grounds for lawsuits. Aren't there some people who simply can't say no to taking them up?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Would be a good idea, but time is the only barrier
thanks for asking. I'll keep it in mind perhaps building up a file as I go along.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. federal standards say they don't have to
remember, federal standards allow for machine failure about 10%
of the time.

So, voting machine companies don't have to get better than a 90.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's right. And further...

The standard states that the standard doesn't have to be met.

http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1299&Itemid=26

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. while it is true that "regulations" can often be legalizing conduct
that would otherwise be illegal (a 3ppm mercury "limit" effecitvely makes less than 3 ppm legal) i doubt that "voluntary standards would do that or have that general kind of effect. If it doesn't proscribe, it can't by implication legalize...

(for lay readers: without such a regulation, an expert might otherwise testify that 2 ppm caused unacceptable amounts of problems...)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is how you run a business in Crazy Town.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. I love this. simple and great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. K & R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. They would be crazy to promise that!
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 02:51 PM by Bill Bored
I've seen fake orgasms with more sincerity than these voting system standards!: http://www.eac.gov/election_resources/vss.html

And the vendors never promise anything beyond what's in the standards, do they?

Counselor Lehto should send this to RFK Jr. Esq. and Mike Papantonio Esq.

They say they want to sue these companies, and there's no substitute for experience, is there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. please feel free to help (anyone) I'm on my way to investigate e-fraud
in an undisclosed location...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Tell us more. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. What part of undisclosed don't you get.
Pushy NewYawkers. :spank:

:D

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Dude, only the location was undisclosed.
The facts of the case are what I'm after.

Ya got a problem with dat?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Meet me at the deli.

We'll dicuss it over a scrambled egg sandwich.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. There will be more disclosed "in due time"; it will be worth the wait
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. E-Voting System Disclaimer:
This product is not intended to treat, diagnose, cure or prevent any fraudulent election.

Always seek the advice of your local sales representative with any questions you may have regarding a vote count discrepancy, incorrect ballot displayed on the screen, or machine failure, and before undertaking any independent test, audit, investigation or exercise of any voting rights guaranteed under federal or state law.

The manufacturer does not warrant that the operation of the product will be uninterrupted or error-free and is not responsible for any damage to the democratic process arising from failure to follow instructions relating to the product's use, or compliance with such instructions.

Design, performance, specifications and electoral outcomes subject to change with notice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great work again from Paul L.
And why would vendors promise anything they aren't forced to promise.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. how about sending this to Lou Dobbs
he will blow a cork.

Add in Howard's write up on the 10 % failure rate and Dobbs
will turn red!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. but they always say this -
they are "state of the art".

You can tell if someone is an idiot if they say
these touchscreen machines are better than optical scan because
they are "state of the art".

I have some tar to sell you for your driveway too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 14th 2024, 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC