When I stopped believing in Hell...

They tell you that if you're not a Christian, Hell awaits you upon death.
They tell you that if you don't obey the Ten Commandments, Hell awaits you upon death.
They tell you that if you don't follow various arbitrary laws, maintain certain values, opinions, and beliefs, or perform certain rituals, Hell awaits you upon death.
They tell you that if you're not in Church every Sunday, Hell awaits you upon death.
Protestants tell you that Catholics are going to Hell.
Catholics tell you that Protestants are going to Hell.
They tell you that if you don't live your life according to a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible, Hell awaits you upon death.

So according to this...the number of people NOT going to Hell must be about...oh...zero.
For a long time, I feared the idea and concept of Hell. Imagine it. A place of eternal tortures beyond that which the human mind can conceive of. This place, created by God, is where he sends his supposedly beloved children when they are bad.
I've heard people comparing it to a father punishing unruly kids. Last I checked, my dad didn't drag me to a torture chamber and put me in an iron maiden cause I used a cuss word.
The mortal mind, with its limited understanding of the timelessness of eternity, cannot comprehend how long 'forever' truly is. If there is a God, then God is timeless, and therefore would understand all too well what eternity is, and what it would mean to be forced to suffer for all time.
It's easy for those who believe they are right, and their actions justified by faith, to condemn others to the most horrible things ever conceived of.
I had a problem with Hell.
Then...
My stepfather, who I spent so many years of my life hating, had a major seizure and went to the hospital. He's been in a nursing home since then. He cannot speak. He had a leg amputated from gangrene. If he understands us at all, he can only communicate through nods or through the look in his eyes.
I hated him. He treated me like garbage, just like he did to so many people in his life. In my young and childish mind, I wanted to see him suffer.
And here he was, suffering before me. Suffering more than most human beings ever go through in their lives.
And I couldn't hate anymore. I couldn't hate this sad, broken shell of a man.
This man who they tell me, is destined for Hell upon death.
He has suffered enough, and no just or loving God could deny him the rest he truly deserves when he does pass on.
It was when I looked into his face on his hospital bed, that I said I could not believe in Hell anymore.
I cannot believe in something that would torture for eternity, someone who has suffered their entire life.
...Yet I still fear it, from being brought up to fear it, to fear judgement, to fear a God that casts away His children, tortures those He is supposed to love.
And cares not for the pitiful screams of the millions upon millions that he has already sentenced to the pits of eternal flame.
These are not the actions of a loving God. Rather, they are the actions of a vicious, capricious, sadistic nutjob.
Therefore, I realized if I were to believe, I could not include Hell in those beliefs. I simply could not. Because it contradicts everything else I believe in, because it blows it all out of the water, and pushes it all into a very, very dark place. Is not Love the greatest, the most important thing of all?

So...to all of you guys out there...religious or not...what is your perspective? Do you believe in Hell? If so, how do you reconcile the idea of a loving God to it?

The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson, a renowned evangelical pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma, who cast aside the idea of hell, and with it, everything he'd worked for over his entire life.

Prologue. Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse ... he stopped believing in hell.


http://www.thislife.org/pages/descriptions/05/304.html

and I will be listening to it as soon as I have some free time =D

This piece is really incredible. I'm still listening to it. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

PB

and you know what, I DON'T Believe in Hell. God is loving and kind and he doesn't judge us. All that judging stuff was invented by men. Thanks for this post, it is awesome, but I think there may a few flames before this is over. May I suggest a cool book called The End of the Universe, by Gary Renard. BTW, I am a UCC Member!

Peace.

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll see if I can find it =)
If someone flames me, I welcome it. It'll be good practice, cause I'm going to Hell for posting that =P

for the same reason.

on my journey from believer to atheist.

how could it not be?

My favorite from him is "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

:hi:

LOL - yours ain't too bad, either. :)

I think we would find it was many people's first step into the "abyss," so to speak.

saying is that they wish they could send me there personally. They are telling me nothing about God.

one time my friend's sister (they were all fervent baptists) told me that all Jews were going to Hell, and I asked her how that was in any way just or fair, and she responded that 'God works in mysterious ways' with this creepy, smug little smile.
I used to like her, but after that, I don't think I ever spoke to her again.

why she thinks that. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's by a practicing Catholic who explains and laments the Catholic Church's ingrained anti-semitism, and how it didn't have to be that way (he also touches on Protestantism and its anti-semitic legacy).

I must look into! Thanks for these suggestions =)

"You know what? It's not your decision."

on who is going to Hell.
Yet they forget 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' 'judge not lest ye be judged' etc. etc.
That's the true mark of a fundie...always ready with the first stone to cast.

the family that made me decide that god has to be an evil sadistic monster.

A hateful person spawns a hateful God.

and hell seemed like the most outlandish of all the ideas. You can tell if you listen to the stories, they were made up to scare people into behaving....sort of like RED ALERTS, ORANGE ALERTS "Muslim terrorist plot broken up in....." It's the same thing today Fear Fear Fear and if you don't fear something is wrong with you.

That's why the big fundie churches are so important to GWB and cronies.
They control their flock through fear, and can keep them in line, preventing independent though, threatening eternal damnation if anyone questions their words.
To a person of faith, such a threat carries incredible weight.

Middle Eastern religions during the Babylonian exile period. (The concept of a flaming hell for the wicked was also in Japanese Buddhism by the twelfth century, which is about four hundred years before they had their first contact with Christianity, so I don't know where they got it.)

The early Jewish concept of life after death was vague and appears to have been a shadowy, featureless world, as when Saul goes to consult a medium who conjures up the spirit of the prophet Samuel.

I find hell to be an untenable concept, since the punishment doesn't fit the crimes. I've used this example before, but the idea of God sending people to hell for eternity for believing the wrong thing or for going swimming on Sunday (Horace Mann, the New England school reformer, stopped attending church after a preacher told him that his brother was in hell for drowning while swimming on a Sunday) is like the cult leader in Oregon who beat his eight-year-old daughter to death for "being bad."

As one commentator said, "What could an eight-year-old do to deserve the death penalty?"

And indeed, what could a human being do to deserve eternal punishment?

Quoting from you:
"And indeed, what could a human being do to deserve eternal punishment?"
EXACTLY. This has been my primary argument. I discussed it with my mother not too long ago. She was wondering where I thought bad people went when they died. I explained that I didn't think anyone could do anything evil enough to be worth of eternal torture.
And yes, I would include monsters like Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot in that category. Loathsome they were, but deserving of torture for all of eternity?
No.
Thanks for your input =) I had also read that Hell was absorbed into Christianity from Persian traditions, but the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Hell at all...their beliefs are rather interesting.

"what could a human being do to deserve eternal life in Heaven?"

I'm not sure how I feel about Heaven right now. I don't necessarily think it's right that bad people go to heaven, but I think it's even worse if good people go to hell.
It's hard to reconcile, obviously, but I don't see the point of a 'carrot-and-stick' theology...because supposedly what's in your heart matters the most. So you want people to be faithful because they WANT to be faithful.
However, you instill fear in them by threatening them with Hell. Hell is always much more heavily emphasized than heaven...the punishment is focused on more than the reward. It terrifies people, and rightly so.
However, then you have people, lots of people, becoming motivated by fear. And when people are motivated by fear, it gets in the way of sincerity and enthusiasm.
How many Christians are Christians because they love what Christianity stands for, and not because they're afraid?
And i'm talking about deep down fear, fear that's been instilled in them since childhood.
That's what makes fundies so rabid. Their faith is rooted in fear, and challenges to their faith bring their fear to the surface, and fear, hatred, and rage are all closely inter-related.
Christianity doesn't NEED to use fear to send out a great message...but it too often does.
And when you threaten people with hellfire if they don't join your religion...you're using fear.
You never answered MY question.
How do people who never heard of Christianity end up in Hell? How is that justice? How do they end up in Heaven, if they never accepted Jesus as their savior, how do they end up in Hell, if they never even heard of Jesus?

"what's in your heart matters the most. So you want people to be faithful because they WANT to be faithful." Agreed.

"Hell is always much more heavily emphasized than heaven" Not in my church.

"It terrifies people, and rightly so." Agreed.

"when people are motivated by fear, it gets in the way of sincerity and enthusiasm." Agreed.

"How many Christians are Christians because they love what Christianity stands for, and not because they're afraid?" Billions and billions, over the centuries.

"Their faith is rooted in fear" I think you are far too dismissive of the possibility that fundamentalists are sincere in their faith. Your statement is a generalization about a group of "others," and I think here you fall into the trap of ascribing insincerity and shallow motives to this group of people. It is easy to say such things about a group of people that have different beliefs than you, or beliefs that you do not understand.

"How do people who never heard of Christianity end up in Hell? How is that justice? How do they end up in Heaven, if they never accepted Jesus as their savior, how do they end up in Hell, if they never even heard of Jesus?" Honestly, I've struggled with this question myself. There are many perspectives on this issue. One perspective is that this is the reason for evangelism and missionary work. It is of crucial importance to reach the lost, because otherwise, they will go to hell. Another perspective is that those who pre-dated Jesus' time walking the Earth were saved by faith in the future Messiah:

"For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. 8"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8).

Keep in mind also that no one goes to Hell as punishment for "missing out" on the opportunity to become a Christian. Hell is punishment for sinning - rebelling against God. So if there is a person who never has the opportunity to hear the Gospel, they do not go to Hell for that reason. If they go, they go as a result of having violated God's law.

'Not in my church.' I'm not saying in all churches. Not in my church either. Hell, I never even hear about Hell in my church! But a lot do.

As to how many were Christians of love and not fear? Think of the time of the Spanish Inqusition, the Dark Ages, even the Middle Ages. The Salem Witch Trials. Purtianism. These are environments where there is no room for questioning or alternative thoughts. To question is to put yourself at risk of death. In those times, people were VERY superstitious...and that superstition often tied in heavily with religious beliefs. That which is not 'of God'...which seems strange...was of the Devil.
Fear has ALWAYS been a major factor in Christianity, because people have used it as a tool to control the masses from day one. Religion cuts to the core of the human heart, and the best way to control the people is to manipulate their heart, and there is no better tool for that than religion.
And it has done so through fear. Like I said, fear is not the only motivation, and for many (most?) people...it is not their only motivation.
But it's there. and it's big.

I'm not calling fear motivation 'shallow.' I don't think it's shallow. I think it's quite sincere, and very tragic. And I'm not saying it's the only motivation either. I think in their own misguided way, they really believe what they preach. But fear is DEFINITELY a big underlying factor in a lot of fundies.

'Reaching the lost.' Missionary work is well and good, but there are good missionaries and bad ones. It's a slippery slope. Sure, lots of people hear about Jesus and Christianity. But in a country like China where religion is HEAVILY frowned upon by the government, it's hard for all of those millions of people to get into Christianity when all they hear is a passing reference. It's just not that easy, not that simple.

By your logic, most people in the world are damned. But you seem to have a limit as to where a person should've been able to convert but didn't.
But you also imply that lack of faith, or lack of Christian faith, is a concsious rejection of God. You use the word 'Rebelling.'
But a Jew or a Muslim would not agree that they are rebelling against God. In fact, they might figure themselves quite devout, and you to be the one who is rebelling.

Okay, that's enough for one night. Any more and my brain will start to hurt -_-

...hell is a fabrication--a construct created by organized religion.

I don't believe in most religion--because the majority of it has nothing
to do with spirituality.

I do believe that there is something "else". A while back, I went through
a traumatic time. I didn't believe in God and I had accepted, with peace,
that there is no life after death--and that what we have now--is the entire game.

I wasn't afraid, and I really didn't think about it that much. However, as I began
healing and shedding my past--I had some very intense, spiritual experiences. It's
very hard to describe. I had to go to some pretty terrifying places as I healed
from childhood trauma, but the upshot is the sense of peace and self-awareness that
the experience catalyzed. It's hard to describe, but I truly felt as if there
was something else, and that we're all connected to it--and that we are all very
spiritual beings. However, life on this planet covers up our true selves with layers
of junk--that bury our "authentic self"--or the part of us that can rec'v that
higher power and peace.

That probably sounds nuts, but it's what I experienced---when I wasn't looking for it
or even needing it.

Since then, most religion seems synthetic. Religion can be used as a crutch--keeping
people from being their "authentic selves", and religion helps others to lead more
enriched and compassionate lives. However, the framework is based on loads of guesses.

We're all spiritual beings. Religion is a product of human beings sensing that something
"more". Through the years, it's become distorted. Hell is one of those distortions.

Who knows. I don't pretend to know all of the answers--or any answers for that matter.

I think it's wonderful that you were able to forgive your stepfather. You are a
very compassionate and insightful person. You've obviously peeled back your own
layers. Your stepfather sounds like he's weighted down by his--and never lived
his life without those layers. It sounds like--in your forgiveness--that you have
an understanding of his layers. I hope that has helped you find peace. Whatever
your stepfather did was not about you--it was about him.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post. :)

and I appreciate you sharing.
I love it when threads are full of people sharing their experiences and feelings rather than flaming and hate.

I was raised Jewish. You know we have our day of atonement every year. So, I was raised to believe that every Yom Kippur, God judged us and inscribes us in the Book of Life or Book of Death. It sounded like if we were good, we'd get inscribed in the Book of Life, Prosperity, etc. And if we were bad, well...

I actually lost sleep during the time close to Yom Kippur. If I temporatily forgot and said something fresh to my one of my parents and them remembered, I'd shudder and feel sick with fear.

Then I started noticing what BS it was, 'cos good people suffered or died. And bad people live and prosper. I've turned away from God now, although I still consider myself Jewish, it's more of a cultural identity than a religious conviction. It's so sad that so much of religion has to be based on fear. I think it causes people to turn away from belief in God.

...and religion is typically used as a method of control...and fear is the best means of control...how best to keep people afraid?
Hell.
The most fearful place you can imagine.
I know that fear, and how it feels. Oh yes.

My rabbi taught me a different way of looking at this 'book of life' and 'book of death' metaphor.

During the High Holidays some of us are going to have our name written in the 'book of life' and some are going to be written in the 'book of death'. Not literally, but this is a way of saying, "hey, some of us are not going to be here next year so here is an oportunity to heal some wounds in case your name might end up in this so called 'book of death' this year".

The way I see is to remind people to ask for forgiveness to someone you hurt or fix something you are doing wrong in your life before you die, since after death you will not get another chance.

So, on Yom Kippur, we Jews spend the day in the synagogue, fasting, thinking on ways of improving our lives, and sincerely asking for forgiveness to people we hurt.

This past Yom Kippur, our rabbi talked about the story of Alfred Nobel who was lucky to read his own obituary since a French newspaper published it erroneously. This obituary condemned Alfred Nobel for his invention of the dynamite and stated, "Dr. Alfred Nobel, who became rich by finding ways to kill more people faster than ever before, died yesterday."

This obituary made Alfred Nobel want to change his legacy so he set aside the bulk of his estate to establish the Nobel Prizes.

A Jew is supposed to live for this life (as opposed to an afterlife) and worry about what is going to be written in his/her obituary. Not live in fear of an afterlife which we don't even know whether it exists or not. Living for salvation after death is a Christian idea.

I believe the suffering here is hell on earth, but you have learned that from your stepfather. It sounds like you have already learned this lesson. Peace on earth to you. Kim

...and death is our rest at the end of our struggle through life.

...and that there is no afterlife?

(If you don't mind me asking) :)

I think that death, whatever it is, is peaceful, restful, and happy...don't know if it constitutes an afterlife, per se, but I don't think it's just nothingness either.

To explore the afterlife (and the concept of reincarnation), I highly recommend two books: first, Many Lives, Many Masters. Then Journey of Souls. In that order :) Conversations with God is also very good (but not so much to do with reincarnation, if at all (I can't remember if it does or not.) But it was a life-changing book for me, as were the others.

'Mommy what will I be when I am just these thoughts and feelings and not bones?' Where that came from I don't know because we were not into Sunday School. I have had people tell me that he is an 'old soul' and it just may be. I always felt a little sorry for him because I didn't have good answers for him. He is 22 now and is still very deep. Who knows? Peace, Kim

"remember" things about past lives or what they learned in past lives. Society teaches them to forget these things because they don't make sense to adults, and eventually they conform and forget. But they seem like "old souls" because they are probably more in touch with their souls at that point, before they forget what they learned in previous lives and start from scratch in their present life to relearn it all over again.

brought tears to my eyes, too.

Yes, you can argue that nobody really deserves hell (I'd give you BushCo as a counterexample), but can you truly argue that any of us deserve heaven? Why is a loving god who hands out unearned eternal bliss more reasonable than a vengeful god who casts you into a lake of fire?

For example, does it really make sense that Pinochet should be in heaven right now? After all, this brutal thug was given last rights, he presumedly confessed his sins, so he should be forgiven. Do you really want to share your afterlife with that monster? How 'bout having to float past Rummy or Cheney on your way to the nightly harp concert?

We deny hell for the same reason we believe in heaven -- because that makes us feel better. It's very difficult to justify the choice any other way.

...just peace. rest.
whatever that entails. i don't think wickedness should be rewarded, but neither (necessarily) do i think goodness needs to be 'rewarded'...i think being a good person is its own reward.
i think we die, and we rest. and we have peace.
I don't think the afterlife is supposed to be a carrot and stick.

:scared: ;)

You hit on the initial motivation for my rejection of salvationism. I finally realized the nihilism that could be induced by a belief in an all-powerful judge who would deal out justice in the afterlife. Why fight to save the Iraqis if they're all going to heaven anyway? Why oppose Bush if he'll be burning in hell after he dies?

I'm overstating it, of course, but it seems to me that salvationist beliefs would have a cumulative effect of increasing acceptance of suffering and tolerance for injustice. I'd much rather be pissed off and as politically active as I possibly can.

=)
If anything, though...I do hope that I end up having an opportunity to speak with God, if He does exist.
I have a lot of questions.

I'm glad you brought this up. I am an atheistic pagan, and one of the reasons I stopped believing in God was the concept of hell. I actually had to decide that even if it was all true, I had to reject it, because no God who would be so cruel could be worth believing in.

My fundie childhood, however, has left me very scarred, with a constant fear of death and what might come after. It's absurd, because I don't believe in it with my rational mind, but it was so ingrained in me as a child, that it has been so far impossible to shake off the irrational fear. This thread gives me some hope, being reminded that there are people all along the spectrum of belief who have rejected this sadistic notion.

I once heard a talk by a chaplain at a Lutheran college. Most of the students were Lutheran, but not all, and some were from fundamentalist backgrounds.

The chaplain said that one of the formerly fundamentalist students told him that she thought of God as a mean old man who watched, ready to pounce on her when she did something wrong.

Wow...not too far off, though...

I know how that feels, trust me. I've had that fear myself.
Still do.
And I can't get rid of it. I just can't. And I don't know how.
Ever see the movie Polyanna, where that fundie-type preacher is screeching that 'Death comes unexpectedly!!' and making the congregation squirm? Funny stuff...
Anyway, it's glad to hear from someone who truly identifies with this irrational but persitent fear. =)

It was a similar process for me. If i, faulty as i am, could forgive and want no suffering for people who have done me harm, surely a "perfect God" would be forgiving and loving to...well everyone.

My heart never matched what i was being told in church. Even as a very young girl. I pulled away from it all. As the years passed i began to read...everything. The picture that began to form was familiar. To me, we all are in life together. Nothing is more valuable than love, understanding and compassion. These things are the "God within us". Titles are irrelevent. I believe we all follow individual paths that will, if we CHOOSE to follow them, they all lead to the same place. That place is a sort of "collective", the best of us...ie. "God".


In the near death experiences, "hell" is described as a "place", or rather a state, that man sort of chooses for himself. It is a state of being with ones "addictions", individual desires... or anything that is more important to the individual than "love". They choose these things above being part of the blissful and "loving" collective. They are surrounded by "others" who also chose these types of things. They are a group, each seeking what is best for themselves over what is best for the group. A miserable existence. It is "separate from God" in a manner of speaking. Away from light and love. It is NOT eternal unless one chooses to stay in it eternally. When one chooses to forgo the "I" and join the "collective" they become part of that which they choose. The "helper" in each of the following examples come the deceased in whatever form they recognize and is most comforting to them as an individual. There is a consistent reference to "the light", a loving, all encompassing light.

...the finest passage in the bible, that pretty much sums up my entire belief system...
'If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I gave away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing; but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophecy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.'
This pretty much contradicts anything a fundie will ever tell you.
Love is enduring and everlasting. Faith without love is nothing. Love is the greatest of all things.
If more Christians took these beautiful words to heart, there'd be a lot less Pat Robertsons and a great many more Carlton Pearsons.

This passage is another good one...



The fruits of the spirit of God are

* love;
* joy;
* peace;
* patience;
* kindness;
* goodness;
* faithfulness;
* gentleness;
* self-control.

It says we will know "God" in man by these things.

The Bible also says the Kindom of God is within us.



With these things in mind, the former passage...



takes on a much richer meaning.




:hi:

...and you get the most out of faith by following passages such as these...not focusing on a material hell or heaven, or working towards a carrot and stick, but rather bettering yourself and the lives of others because you feel it is the right thing to do, because you have love for them.
If love is so important, there is no room for hate.

Gets to me everytime I read it.

Used it at my wedding (how original, right?)

...but my favorite use for it, is for how I would describe God.

my mind was rather focused on the marriage thing...

I guess to me, it has always meant one thing...thus, it can never mean another.
If that makes any sense.

I don't see any possibility of god, if he exists, of being good. And before people start feeling that I have had a bad life or I'm depressed for saying that, let me asssure you...I've led a good life so far, and I've been very lucky. But thats just the point...I was never abused and, while I was dirt poor as a kid, I was better than about 80 percent of people on this planet.

I've travelled a lot, and seen too much. Anybody who thinks of god as good, and heaven as a place the creator of this "great" world will take you is being VERY optimistic. If you think god is good, you haven't travelled to enough third world countries, or ghettos.

Hell does not exist. Heaven does not exist. When we die, we die...

Wouldn't it be nice if people like Pol Pot, Pinochet and company had such a fate awaiting them?

However, I think it's silly for the average person to even worry about such things. I'm Christian and I certainly don't worry about it. People have such an out-of-proportion sense of what will make them hell-bound. I said to a friend of mine, "Do you think that the fact you had sex outside of marriage puts you on the same level as the bloodthirsty bastards around the globe who are killing people willy-nilly?" She didn't quite know what to say.

I finally reminded her that since Catholics believe in purgatory that's probably the worst she can expect. "Look at it as community service," I said. "Like picking up trash along the highway."

goes to hell, or at least one hell. There are two. The first is merely the grave. The second is gehenna, and it doesn't exist yet, and doesn't last long once it comes into existence.

In between now and when gehenna exists there'll be a resurrection or two. Ultimately anybody who hasn't accepted Christ and God--and they consider that to be most everybody, without any judgment about any given individual, even themselves in many cases--will be resurrected and given the opportunity to see how it works in action. They don't sketch in any details; they leave it pretty much at that degree of generalization. At the end of the "trial period", so to speak (my term, not theirs), those that have met whatever standard God has in mind go on with whatever God intends; those who haven't get pitched into gehenna.

Nobody ventures a guess as to how many people will wind up there; maybe only a couple, maybe a lot. But any pain they feel is brief; you get pitched in, and die. That's that. No eternal torment, just permanent non-existence. Gehenna originally referred to a dump outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned. One may take it literally or more metaphorically. But they don't believe a loving God would subject anybody mortal to eternal punishment.

because God is just. But the good news is that salvation is available to everyone, through Jesus Christ, because God is merciful. It's really that simple.

Each of us has sinned and rightfully deserves eternal damnation. But even the most heinous sinners - myself included - are offered the free gift of salvation and eternal life. The only question is whether they will accept or reject this gift.

We each are accorded one lifetime to decide whether to accept or reject the gift of salvation. Of course, he who waits for the 11th hour may die at 10:30.

I sense in many of the posts in this thread the notion that we can change reality just by changing our beliefs - "I no longer believe in Hell; therefore Hell does not exist for me any more." I am convinced that this is an erroneous notion. The way I came to this conclusion was that it occurred to me that if I am making it up as I go along, what are the chances that it is the truth? No, there is an objective truth about Heaven and Hell, and we cannot change that truth by wishing them in or out of existence.

Nobody in recorded history came back from the dead to tell us there is another world after death. There is no proof God exists. So if I don't accept Jesus as my savior or don't believe in God I deserve eternal damnation?

That's wrong! A mass murdurer who "finds Jesus" just before being executed in the electric chair will go to heaven and I have to go to hell for being skeptical? What kind of God is this?

Christianity makes God look like an asshole.

"Nobody in recorded history came back from the dead to tell us there is another world after death." That's only if you exclude the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John from history.

"There is no proof God exists." Your opinion. Many others disagree.

"So if I don't accept Jesus as my savior or don't believe in God I deserve eternal damnation?" We all do, not just you.

"That's wrong!" Wrong according to what objective standard? Or is it only wrong according to your subjective standard?

"A mass murdurer who "finds Jesus" just before being executed in the electric chair will go to heaven and I have to go to hell for being skeptical?" Not for being skeptical - for refusing the free offer of eternal salvation. God's not going to force you to live with him for an eternity if you don't choose to do so.

"What kind of God is this?" Awesome.

"Christianity makes God look like an asshole." Quite the contrary. His message is love and forgiveness. He gives the gift of eternal life even to those who don't deserve it. He has been scorned, mocked, disobeyed and dismissed throughout history by mankind, and yet He continues to give us air to breathe, flowers to enjoy, crisp Fall nights, puppies ... and the opportunity to live in His house forever -- should we choose to accept it.

He was very nice, but very persistent. learned about Islam.
I guess that's what you'd call a 'free offer of salvation?'
That's part of something else I realised...I could very well be wrong about the religion that I picked.
My truth is not absolute truth. What makes me right and that Muslim wrong?
I don't think it's like that.

You cannot use the NT as historical accounts of Jesus. Don't even try!

I don't believe or accept Jesus as my savior since I never had any proof of his existence so I am surely going to hell for eternity, that is your belief. If you think about it your idea of God is blesphemous. It paints God as this mean and unjust figure.

People burning in hell right now should be the ones demanding apologies from God for never reveling himself to them before they died. And please don't come with the argument that missionaries are revelation of God because they are not.

I am a theist but I cannot blame atheists for resisting and mocking this idea of God. I would lose all respect for God if what you say is the truth.

And "that's wrong" according to my objective standard. As a theist I look at God for a moral standard. But this idea of arrogant, unjust and mean God who will send a good person to eternal damnation since this person does not accept Jesus as his/her savior does not deserve our time or respect. This idea of God is not awesome at all.

Good luck with your eternal life! ;-)

summed it all up.
Nice work.

You make God sound more like a disfunctional parent than like the all-powerful, loving ruler and creator of the universe.

"Love me or I'll punish you!"

If we heard earthly parents say that, we'd say that they were emotionally abusive. We'd say that their children, for all their outward conformance to their parents' wishes, were feigning love instead of feeling love, because they were scared to do otherwise.

And people who never heard of the Christian God or Jesus through no fault of their own, or who have rejected Christianity because of the actions of horrible people who warped and misused Christ's message, are going to hell? Some love that is!

Even though I was raised rather traditonally, I have been unable to believe that God damns unbelievers since living and traveling in Asia, where billions of people have never heard of Christianity, and many of those who have have been turned off to it by inept and insensitive missionaries.

What do you say about Romans 2:12-16, the passage that evangelicals somehow never get around to quoting? I would suggest reading the ENTIRE New Testament, not just the hellfire and brimstone passages that your preachers are apparently fond of quoting. I'd also suggest reading a few commentaries on the historical background of the Bible and then traveling a bit in non-Christian countries.

God is not some cosmic Joan Crawford.

anyone who says they live their life according to a literal interpretation of Holy Scripture is not being truthful or simply hasn't actually read the entire Bible.
I'm still waiting for someone to come along and show me that they do follow every word printed in the Bible, right down to the last ritual stoning.

Good to hear someone who is a practicing Christian say what you said to him. Good to know that not all Christians believe in a God with a character like that of Adolf Hitler.

it appears.

"Feigning love" of God would be an exercise in futility. "God knows your hearts." Luke 16:15

You complain that it would be unjust for those who have never heard of God to be condemned. Then you lash out disdainfully at the very missionaries who devote their lives to reaching those same people with the Good News.

You say: "I have been unable to believe that God damns unbelievers." Are you constructing your own God? God is who He is ("I AM") and His nature is not changed by the fact that a particular person is unable to believe in damnation. The Bible clearly instructs that salvation is through Christ. "No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 Though that may seem exclusionary to some, it is not. Jesus is available to everyone, through the Holy Spirit. In fact, just after the passage you cite is the following: "when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." Romans 2:14-15.

"God is not some cosmic Joan Crawford." On that, we can agree.

having heard of him.

Is that a fair action for a God who is the source of all justice? Say you have someone who was born in Maoist China after 1949 and died in the famines of the early 1960s without every having heard of Jesus. Are you saying that this person suffers through the political upheavals of Mao's China and sees family members imprisoned, perhaps even executed in the Hundred Flowers Campaign, then starves to death, and then God says, "It's hell for you because you don't believe in Jesus."

You're trying to say that human beings who do not know Jesus or who have rejected Jesus not for himself but because of sadists and power-grabbers who use his name to justify their own depravity are to be sent to hell for all eternity? All eternity--so that the earliest cave dwellers from 100,000 years ago, whose life spans were about 30 years, are still in hell?

Have you really thought this position through? Or do your preachers made you afraid that you'll go to hell if you doubt anything that's in Jack Chick's tracts?

You really need to do some research into the textual history of the Bible, too. All textual and historical indications are that the Gospel of John is not a strictly factual history but a philosophical interpretation of Jesus' life and teachings by people who never knew him in person. In fact, very little of the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament, was written during the lifetimes of the people described.

...cause they have to say that those people are hell-bound, but saying that makes them seem like enormous assholes...what's a fundie to do??

"So if I don't accept Jesus as my savior or don't believe in God I deserve eternal damnation?" We all do, not just you.

See, that's supposed to be the great equalizer. The fundie believes he can condemn everyone to hell because he admits he's worthy of it too. That way, in his mind, he's not judging, just revealing a universal truth - and trying to help save you from eternal torment! Why, that's a GOOD thing, isn't it?

a good way to put it =)
See, when he says that, the hidden message is...'we all deserve eternal damnation. me included. but i'm not going to hell. so it's easy for me to tell everyone else that they are.'
he still hasn't explained how people who never heard of jesus get sentenced to hell.

The first gospel to get its historical mention was around 160 CE which was about 130 years after the death of Jesus.

As far as the Hebrew Bible (old testament), it was probably first drafted around 900 BCE and finalized to what we know today at around 600 BCE. It was not written by Moses back in 1400 BCE. The Torah is a combination of stories written by at least 4 different people at different eras and then edited and put together by a fifth person. There are different writing styles, different forms of Hebrew from different eras, duplicate and even triplicate passages meshed together into one story.

If you read the Hebrew Bible in its original Hebrew you start seeing how the NT contradicts with the alleged prophecies and naturally because of that questioning comes to place. Why would God not get to the point and be clear about the prophecies instead of creating this doubt and tricking most of us to spend eternity in hell?

...just like fossils were put on the earth to test the faithful =P

Allegedly, now we have a bunch of skepticals burning in hell because of that deception. Isn't that a trait of an awesome God? :-)

How DARE they question the Holy Bible!!!
The fundies, they be so silly with their reasonings!

You and I have had our share of disagreements, but I can't tell you how delighted I am to see a true liberal believer standing up to the fundamentalism right here on DU.

irrational and has no basis in reality.

There is not one shred of evidence that it is even close to the objective truth.

...but why?
What could someone do to deserve damnation for all of eternity? That means eternal, nonstop, everlasting tortures of the kind that would make Saddam blush.
Forever and ever.
I just can't fathom what someone could do that is so heinous that they would be deserving of something so unbelievable, unconceivably awful.
I'm not changing 'reality' by 'changing my beliefs'. Hell doesn't exist in my 'reality'.
What makes your reality better than mine?
I'm rejecting the very notion of Hell.
If that damns me, so be it.

"...but why?" For sinning.

"What could someone do to deserve damnation for all of eternity?" Sin.

"I just can't fathom what someone could do that is so heinous that they would be deserving of something so unbelievable, unconceivably awful." Yeah, its awful, but no one has to choose that.

"I'm not changing 'reality' by 'changing my beliefs'. Hell doesn't exist in my 'reality'.
What makes your reality better than mine?" There is no "your reality" or "my reality." There is just "reality." One of us is right and the other is wrong.

"I'm rejecting the very notion of Hell." That doesn't make it disappear. It either exists or it doesn't, regardless of your rejection of the notion. I say it exists, because Jesus said so.

"If that damns me, so be it." That seems remarkably cavalier to me.

"jesus christ!!!" is a sin.

Hell, a person could live a good life, and never do anything bad...say holy shit once in their life, and then spend the rest of eternity being burned in fire, having their testicles stabbed and cut by scissors, have burning embers put in their eyes, and have demons cut and slice away, slowly skinning them while roasting.

Thats justice, lol? Oh man, Zeb...I don't even know what to say to you any more, lol.

like the part about how none of us has to suffer the fate you described, because God came down and took the punishment for us?

If you leave out the most important part of Christianity, your critique of the religion lacks credibility.

Not only have we established that god is a complete sadistic whackjob, your only way out is believe that a guy 2000 years ago died on a cross...and then was revived. Which is pretty fucking arbitrary, if you ask me. God comes down and punishes himself...not only is he a sadist, he is also a masochist!!

I'm sorry Zeb, but does that REALLY make any sense to you when you think it through? Why in the bloody hell would God HAVE TO sacrafice himself to forgive others? If god can really do everything, he should be able to forgive people for those little sins without killing people. I guess god isn't omnipotent...he needs good ol' blood sacrafices like the Mayan gods.

On top of that... even if you believe that Mel Gibson tripe, Jesus didn't take all THAT much punishment. Thousands of people have certainly suffered more than Jesus did....God really fucking wussed out from real punishment. He should have put himself on the wheel...thats wayyyyy worse. But then I guess you would probably just be wearing a little wheel around your neck, lol.

If thats what you need to go to heaven, not only is god a sado-masochist, he's just plain fucking crazy. He kind of reminds me of Mel Gibson, if you ask me.

the time for a serious response.

But I feel compelled to point out that you cannot possibly imagine the torment that Jesus underwent in taking on the sins of the world - yours and mine included. He, though utterly innocent, was separated from the Father, with whom He was "one," (John 10:30) and had to bear the weight of the sins of billions of people, past, present and future. How can you compare some medieval torture device to that incomparable event?

I find your casual dismissal of the suffering of actual torture victims to be illiberal and, quite frankly, inhuman.

If I believed in a loving god, it wouldn't approve.

More like astounded out of my mind. Seriously Zeb...your like the one person on the planet who continually keep blowing my mind, lol.

"But I feel compelled to point out that you cannot possibly imagine the torment that Jesus underwent in taking on the sins of the world - yours and mine included."

Really Zeb, I think Jesus got a pretty sweet deal. I mean, he suffers for a couple of day, even with all those sins and all. Big whoop. Then he gets to spend eternity in heaven with his god-like powers. Where as I get to live a pretty good life...but then have to burn in hell for billions zilliions quintillion centillion years, while little demons prod me with swords and scythes. Cuz honestly, right now my chances of becoming Christian are like one in a billion....and I'd probably only do it to bang some church chick. And for the grape juice.

So really, Jesus has nothing on me. Man...I'm gonna suffer like he NEVER did. Cuz big daddy is pretty darn angry.

And honestly..I don't know what a billion sins feel like, but its got to be better than having all your bones broken, then your floppy limbs threaded through a wheel, and then turned. How much does one sin weigh anyways?

Nice counter.

Your a christian, your supposed to be on his side :rofl:

Thanks though. Any reasonable person, I would think, should see some holes in the that whole hell-god-angry-burn stuff. It just doesn't make any sense.

Us wingnuts gotta stick together!!!
But seriously...you make an excellent point. jesus supposedly 'suffered for us so we don't have to suffer through hell...but by going to hell for an eternity, how would we not be suffering far more than jesus did?
it's like george w. bush trying to come off as a war hero while painting john kerry as a pansy.
jesus died for us...so that noone should 'perish'...ever!

"that whoever believes in him shall not perish" not "so that no one should perish"

:)

When someone sacrifices themselves for you, really does it FOR YOU, then they should not expect thanks or worship. If jesus or god or whoevers "sacrifice" was altruistic, then they should expect nothing in return. Otherwise, it ain't really sacrifice, bud.

When I give money to charity, I don't do it for the tax break. I don't even TELL anybody (lol...I guess I just did in this thread though), because I do it because I care, not because I'm expecting gratitude or for a bigger return. If I sacrificed myself for my children, I would do it because I love them, not because I expect them to worship me.

You just can't get away from these simple facts:

God made a person/himself suffer, when he didn't need to. He's omnipotent...he should be able to forgive "sins" without needing to kill himself or anybody else.

Jesus's death wasn't altruistic. Jesus did it not because he loved us, but because he wanted people to worship in him. If it was all that mattered, the fact that he sacrificed himself should, of itself, be enough for us to enter heaven. The belief thing is just something god made up to make it harder for us. And again, its arbitrary...it says nothing about the person..a person who believes Jesus died is not less evil or more good, than one who does not believe. But god doesn't give a shit...his rules are completely fucked up.

Jesus's death was pretty much in vain, anyways, when probably less than half the people on the world are going to be saved. Again, if god really wanted more people in heaven, he would have come up with something a little more efficient then believing in some dumb book (which contains so many false "facts", its embarassing).

There is nothing inherently special in believing. And you can't control your what you believe. It just can't happpen. I've said this to you before...there is absolutely no way that I COULD (not would, but COULD) believe in the bible. Ever. NEVER. I'm doomed. So Jesus sacrifice, arbitrary thing that it is, was meaningless for me, because I can't ever believe it.

Anyhow, we should probably stop talking about this. Even delving this deep into your mythology has me feeling dirty. Dirty for talking as if Jesus and god actually existed and giving your sadistic god any of my thoughts or time. I don't buy any of it.

I discussed in the 'Message to Atheists' threads...did you join that party by any chance? =)
Faith isn't an active 'choice.'
You don't say 'I choose to hate God.' Or 'I choose to follow Jesus.' or 'I choose to be atheist.'
You just ARE what you ARE. That's not to say that what you are can't change, cause people change all the time.
Like...if I suddenly stop liking ice cream, it's not because I choose to not like ice cream. It's because ice cream no longer appeals to me. I WAS an ice cream lover, but no longer.
But if one day, I pick up an ice cream cone, and it tastes good again, why, I like ice cream again now!
Faith isn't too different. Children who grow up into fundies aren't given a CHOICE...if they rebel against scripture, they face being ostracized by the community. Children who question are quickly silenced. They are not given the CHANCE to develop alternative views, because are forcibly pushed upon them the minute they exit the womb.
And as life goes on, it gets harder to shake them.
Saying that we go to Hell for not believing in Jesus implies that people make a conscious choice to 'reject' God. I'm sure that some do, but for many others, whether they have faith or not, it's simply not like that.
It's because that is the way they are.
How would you answer a Muslim who told you that you were going to Hell because you're a Christian and not a Muslim?
What makes you right, and not him?

I think it was Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time. Or perhaps it was when I heard him speak in Portland (where he lives with his wife, who is an Episcopal priest).

Anyway, he talks about his upbringing in a strict variety of Lutheranism, where he was told, essentially, that he'd better believe or else. Even as a teenager, he says, he had trouble getting his head around the contradictary doctrines of "God loves us unconditionally" and "God will send us to hell if we don't believe every last doctrine of the church unconditionally."

...but you know how parents are supposed to love unconditionally? I don't recall my mother sentencing me to an eternity of hellfire and bloody damnation for breaking the window when i was 10 =)

for someone who thinks it is such a waste of time to give any of your thoughts to it.

God's sacrifice was necessary, because of God's immutable quality of being just. For every sin, there must be payment. Payment is made either by the sinner or by God. The sinner gets to choose.

The fact that many will not follow the straight and narrow path to salvation, but instead will travel the broad road to damnation, does not make Jesus' death on the cross "in vain." Instead, it just shows that God is not in the business of controlling your choices. He lets each of us decide for ourselves. Some choose Him, and some don't.

Part of being Just is realizing when a punishment fits a crime. If somebody stole your pencil, would you want them arrested and put in jail for the rest of theri life? If somebody hit someone with a car while DUI, would you want them stripped naked, beat with whips, raped, and then burned alive? Do these punishments fit the crime, zeb? Is that justice?

God is not just. If god were immmutably just, then he would be able to deal punishments that fit a crime. IF you honestly believe that someone like me, who has never stolen, killed, nor hurt anyone, deserves to burn in hell for eternity because I don't believe in Jesus, and claim that it is just, then I think both you and your god have some sort of "Justice Dysfunction".

Have you ever been angry at your fellow man?

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." Matthew 5:21-22

Disobeying God's law is a big, big, big crime. The biggest. That's why the punishment is so severe.

No sin is so small that it "doesn't count."

Please see the following:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal. 3:10.

You do realize the bible also promotes stoning and misogony among other unsavory things?
You can't just quote bible at us without accepting its warts too.
And if God is all-knowing, why did he get so angry at men when they disobeyed? Didn't he know it was going to happen? Isn't he God? Doesn't he know whether we're going to go to Hell or not? Isn't he God? Doesn't he know?
I hated the movie 'Star Trek V' but the 'What does God need with a starship' argument actually is a pretty damn good one.
Punishment for your emotions is just asinine. But a lot of things in the bible are asinine. I'm sorry, but noone can regulate their emotions. If a man kills your family, and you get angry at him, and then he kills you too, by your logic, you would go instantly to hell because you got mad at this guy who killed your family. Cause, you know, we're supposed to be God, too?
We pretty much end up in hell for anything. Our only way out of it is to believe in Jesus. But then there are SO SO many people in the world who never have any realistic opportunity to become Christians.
So they all get funnelled into hell by the bucketload.
Why do people feel the need to ascribe the worst of human emotions to God? Pettiness, judgementalism, narrowmindedness, hate, sadism.
So what DOES God need with a starship?

not me.

"And if God is all-knowing, why did he get so angry at men when they disobeyed?" If you tell your disobedient 12-year old not to smoke, and you know good and well that she will do it anyway, and then you find out that she did, does your foreknowledge make it impossible for you to be angry at her? Get serious. God's omniscience has nothing to do with it.

"Didn't he know it was going to happen?" Yes. "Isn't he God?" Yes. "Doesn't he know whether we're going to go to Hell or not?" Yes. "Isn't he God?" Yes. "Doesn't he know?" Yes, He does.

"I hated the movie 'Star Trek V' but the 'What does God need with a starship' argument actually is a pretty damn good one." Not familiar with either the movie or the argument. Can you elaborate?


"We pretty much end up in hell for anything." No, only one thing - sinning.

"Our only way out of it is to believe in Jesus." Now you're getting it.

"But then there are SO SO many people in the world who never have any realistic opportunity to become Christians." So what are you going to do about that? Jesus instructed you almost 2,000 years ago to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19. What have you done to give those people a "realistic opportunity to become Christians"?

"Why do people feel the need to ascribe the worst of human emotions to God? Pettiness, judgementalism, narrowmindedness, hate, sadism." Judgmentalism can be bad for humans to engage in; but not for God. Haven't you heard: "judgment is mine, sayeth the Lord"? And hate - hate can be good. God hates evil. He hates sin, because it separates Him from his beloved creations. He hates injustice. Don't you?

You claim that God hates injustice, but infinite punishment for finite crimes is by definition infinitely unjust. Your God sucks.

An objective standard? Your subjective standard? How is your subjective standard any better than God's standard of what is good and what is evil?

Hey Zeb, whassup? Starting up with the objective/subjective thing again? I once did a word search and you own the title for most uses in this forum, by far. To quote from another pretty good book, I don't think it means what you think it means. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Shintoists, et al, have their books, their tales, their history as well, and can point to them as objective sources of confirmation too.

God knew that the serpent would tempt adam and eve. He knew that eve would lead adam astray. he even knew that lucifer would betray him! If he knew all of this, and could've prevented it, why let it happen? Why become so angry and enraged by something you set in motion yourself, and that you know will happen, but fail to prevent for some unknown reason? Why not start over again?
And yeah, if I tell someone not to do something, and I know they're not going to do it anyway, especially in regards to the kids I work with, I do get angry or disappointed. But I deal with it calmly (most of the time :) ), and work towards generating solutions to help the child avoid having the same problem in the future. It's my job to be NON-judgemental and forgiving. I'm not perfect, i'm only human. Hard not to take things personal sometimes. But I try my best.
So I know it's gonna happen, but I can't always prevent it. If I can take pre-emptive steps, I will.
Anyway, the 'What does God need with a starship?' thing, questions why God would have need of things that are petty or human. Yeah, the movie is bad, laughably bad, but anyway...
What I mean is, what does God need with roasting so many people in hellfire? I mean, sure, you 'only' go to Hell for sinning...but so many things are sins! Even feeling certain emotions! SO it's not really 'only'.
What have I done? Uhm. I teach Sunday School...seems weird, right? I love Christianity, and being Christian. I just concede, like anything that I love, that it is not without its (many) flaws. I don't do missionary work, no. But do you? Ay yay yay.
Hate injustice? Yes. Sentencing someone to hell for eternity for getting angry = injustice.
Hate sin? No, I don't hate sin, because it is human nature and God made us that way. Is it a good thing? Nah. But it's there, and it's not worth the energy to hate it.
At what point, in your mind, does a child become elligble for hell?
...not a very savory question now, is it?

"let the little children come to me, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these." - Jesus

God knew the serpent would tempt Adam & Eve. Yes. But they still had the free will to succumb to the temptation or not.

Why let it happen? Because God created us, and the angels, including Lucifer, as independent beings, not automatons. Sure, God could control everybody's thoughts and actions if He wanted to, but then He would be alone in the universe with nothing but robots, and no one who chooses of their own free will to love Him.

I admire your work with the children. One of my dearest friends is a classroom assistant who works with severely developmentally disabled kids. She is a wonderful person. She was raised Hindu, but she is open to new ideas, and she came to church with me and even took communion. Her daughter came also, and I am thrilled to say that she has converted to Christianity. She's still working on her mom, as am I, by trying to live my life as a good example of the faith, and answering any questions that she has.

On Star Trek - I loved the show as a kid. I watched every episode dozens of times. The movies all pretty much blew. They got worse and worse, as sequels usually do. I guess I never saw V.

"Children are exempt, but the rest of you fuckers are going to pay."

Your theology doesn't even make any sense, because Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil until they ate from the Tree of Good and Evil.

and they ate anyway.

But it can't all be blamed on them. I would have done the exact same thing, and so would you.

The story says that they had no knowledge of Good and Evil, they had no knowledge of right and wrong. Therefore, it was impossible for them to know that going against God was wrong.

that children ARE elligible for Hell...once they reach like 7 or 8. Isn't that charming? Glad you don't share THAT perspective.
Yeah, working with kids is rough, at least I took a personal day tomorrow (friday)...looking forward to that.
Leading by example and answering questions...seems like the good way to get people interested in Christianity.
Can't stand those obnoxious 'join us or burn in Hell' types... obviously they don't do what they do out of love or concern for others. Or they just don't know anything about marketing.
i liked some of the movies...numbers 2 and 6 especially.
number 5 is worth watching if you want a laugh. it's really that terrible.

I've gotta go. Cheers!

You might want to beg your God not to send you to Hell, just in case.

:eyes:

You've never heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek">Star Trek, Zeb?

It was the brain child of the person who also said this:



That was Gene Roddenberry if you're Google-challenged.



He was also one of the first people to be buried in space.


You really should get out more, Zeb.







Live long and prosper.

because it must be the most unwelcome thing anyone has ever heard.

"You know human nature? How we all get angry with each other occasionally? Well, a single instance of anger is enough to get you eternally damned, never mind how much love or help you show your fellow humans before or after. And by the way, before I told you this, there was a chance you wouldn't be judged this way - but now you know, that's it. You're in The Dock, awaiting judgement.

The only way out of this is to believe something written in a book. The book says to forget human ideas of good and evil - just believe that there's a Supreme Being which demands infinite punishment for finite wrong, but a part of that god underwent the infinite punishment for anyone who believes it's true - though the infinite punishment only lasted a couple of days. The god doesn't have a choice about this punishment - it has to be undergone. There's no free will in that for the god.

The Purpose of Life isn't to enjoy it, or to help others enjoy it - it's to believe what a book says. Other books may be available, but they're irrelevant. Since the book was written, several centuries ago, human existence, both in reality and in some infinite life, has revolved around people believing it over any other book, or their experience in life."

It would seem to me that anyone preventing a missionary spreading that message is doing someone good - in the world view of the missionary, they're keeping people innocent, while in reality, they're stopping the spread of a depressing antisocial meme.

...and you can be as good as you want, a wonderful person, but if you ain't Christian, you go straight to hell.
Welcome to Jack T. Chick logic, my friends. In essense, as shown in the tracts of Jack T. Chick, a good person will go to Hell if they aren't Christian, but a mass murderer who accepts jesus just before his execution will be welcomed into heaven.
In other words, why bother being a good person, when you get a 'get out of jail free' card if you repent and accept Jesus?
Doesn't that entirely defeat the purpose of religion?

Not only does god not expect me to kill anybody, or lust, or masterbate (which is basically the fault of testosterone, really...which god made right?), now I can't even get angry. Lol...it so happens that the parts of the brain that register things like lust and anger are built into us (I would argue by evolution, you would argue by god). God is RESPONSIBLE for making able to feel anger. Its what we do with that anger that defines us. I have great control over my anger...better than ANYBODY I know. I never emotionallly lash out...by gf, who I have been living with for a year (oops...against god) and going out with for three years has NEVER seen me angry. But that time I almost got run over walking home from school....man did I get mad almost dying. But now I'm going to be sent to hell for that. Sweet.

God is so nice.

And no sin isn't so small that it doesn't count...thats fine Zeb...but that still doesn't help you with the Just punishment fitting the crime. God has no justice if he makes someone burn for eternity...ETERNITY...for disobeying him. Lol. What a joke. I can't believe anybody believes this shit...Zeb...you gotta do a little more analysis of your beliefs.

Evoman

who thought that they were leading more-or-less virtuous lives that they were sinners. Maybe a person had not committed the act of adultery, but he had lusted after a woman not his wife, which is sinning in his heart.

Yes, God made us able to feel anger, and able to murder, and able to commit adultery, and able to commit every other sin. The key word in your post is "able." God did not ever make me sin. I CHOSE to do it, just as you have, and everyone else on this board and everyone else on the planet.

Jesus' teachings are extremely challenging - which is one reason I lol at those who deride Christianity as an "easy" religion. Love my enemies? Turn the other cheek? Forgive those who trespass against me? Don't be angry at someone who almost runs me over while walking home from school? Sell all my possessions and give all my money to the poor? These are not easy. They run counter to our instincts. Part of growing as a Christian is learning to conquer those instincts and obey the Lord, even when doing so is hard.

Your ridicule of my beliefs does not change one iota of the truth about them. Jesus warned me that I would be mocked for believing in Him, and you have fulfilled that prophecy. Congratulations. You're in the Bible.

it's good to point out hypocrites when you see them, and in that regard Jesus was right on. He challenges everyone to better themselves, but he accepted and loved everyone as they were. Not a trait often seen in anyone of any religion.
I work with fragile/emotionally disturbed kids kids, and one of our most important philosophies, is you don't set the kids up for failure. You don't set them up to fall, cause they've fallen hard enough already. It's just common sense...you don't make unrealistic expectations or put them in situations where they are unfairly tricked, tested, or tempted. I've seen staff get up right in a kid's face and scream at them, and then they wonder why the kid punches them or shoves them away?
Following that...why would God give us emotions, then punish us for feeling them?
Why would God command us to follow and obey Christianity, but put multiple other religions, many very similar to Christianity, out there to confuse us?
Why would God leave 'false' evidence of evolution all over the planet to test us?
There's all kinds of question like this in my mind.
I just can't conceive of how God could be so capricious and petty.

according to Zeb, the only punishment for any infraction of any kind is eternal hellfire.
Unless of course you make the right pick and choose Jesus as your savior.
Those of you going with Allah, Judiasm, Buddah, Hinduism, etc. etc. are just plumb out of luck. Enjoy your fire and brimstone! Watch out for the pitchforks!

It always ends with my brains blown across the floor. I don't know why I keep getting sucked in....I must be deficient in some way, lol.

...when confronted with such views, to try to make some sort of impact.
the sort of impact your head makes when smacking against a brick wall...which is about the level of success you can expect to have here...but man, it's so tempting to try...

Yet it's so very satisfying.

Zeb's a noob, wasn't a believer until 3-4 years ago, got that noob's zeal and fixation on the bureaucratic edifice of Christianity. He's making his bones here, solidifying his sense of being a Good Christian. Hopefully, Zeb's view of God will become more charitable with time and experience, as it does with most Christians.

However, I don't have a lot of respect for anyone that can seriously accept the doctrine of Hell as espoused by Zeb here, even for a short period of time.

By the end of our conversations (which we enjoy having on the rare day), hes basically forced to admit, "I don't know" or "you make a good point".

But Zeb...man, you gotta appreciate how solid that wall is. Its like cult programming or something...I've never seen anything like it.

Sometimes they break free, sometimes they don't.

He never posts outside of this forum.

EVER.

I mean, I like a good religious brawl as much as anyone else, but come on, why does someone join DU and only post in the religion forum?

Stand up straight, make sure your hair is brushed. I'm sure others are looking in from whatever prayer group Zeb belongs to.

At least he's not one of those blow-dried, glittery Prosperity Christians, I'll give him that. Those guys make my teeth hurt.

In the meanwhile, adjust the attitude, get out your Atheist Bible, and re-read Subterfuge and Conquest Through Etiquette. Praise Carl!

How am I supposed to remember who or what I'm supposed to worship when they keep changing the rules?

Tell me you're joking, or we're gonna have a bigger schism than the Great Religious-Atheist Nonreligious-Atheist Split of 2006. Sonuvagun... I don't think I can endure another one of those.

Plus we're trying to keep the rumours to a minimum until someone can tell Sam.

I can sleep swaddled in the comfort of righteousness again. Y'know, you can cost a guy his faith in atheism with that kind of talk. Careful, please!

You sleep.

I'm hitting the rack too, I have to make sure I get plenty of sleep so that I don't lose my temper during the pray-fest at work tomorrow.

Our Christmas party is tomorrow. We'll have to say even more prayers than usual before we eat.

*BMUS gags*

Spike the eggnog with brandy and let everyone have a drink on me.

I had an overbearing fundiegelical boss once. Couldn't crack wise about his Napoleon for Jesus schtick, so I had to take refuge in ridiculing his plaid pants. I've had a small taste, so I know. Stay safe, stay sane.

If it wasn't for you guys, they'd have come for me with a net a long time ago...

And is trying to save us all, because we are so wicked.

You know, I'd almost believe that, but Zeb is almost completely reactive insted of proactive. He responds to questions...he very seldom has ever started a thread himself. I don't doubt he is trying to convert us, but he isn't trying very hard. Either that, or he really sucks at it,lol.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt....I mean, he hasn't been tombstoned yet, so the mods seem to think hes okay.

He's harmless.

Plus he gives us so much material to work with.

He's an atheist's dream come true.



on edit: I actually like Zeb. I'm not sure why except that he seems to be nothing like the evolving dominionists I work for and with.

I think he'd be fun to have a beer with.

...I don't like his views one whit, and he's reactive, but he's not an ass about it, either. He's certainly not as reactionary or paranoid as SOME of the religious types that post on R/T.
On a different note, if Dawkins is your High Priest, what kind of rituals do you engage in? Do you drink the blood of Christian babies, or simply partake in Satan worshipping parties?

and watch Doctor Who episodes. Praise be to the Holy Wife!

(What we do with our rubber chickens is, however, a secret we are under pain of death not to reveal.)

:toast:

We Pastafarians are going to the http://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/leaflet.pdf">real heaven.

Our heaven is WAY better. We've got a Stripper Factory AND a Beer Volcano.

you'd think he'd give a little more help to those people who choose other religions. Cause you know, they have their own holy books too, that claim that they are right.
I mean, honestly, how are we supposed to know what to choose? Cause the Bible says so?
Well the Koran and the Torah say so too.
What makes our Word superior to theirs?

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:47-48.

Those who had ample opportunity to accept the Lord - including virtually all Americans and members of Western civilization - reject Him at their peril. On the other hand, those who had no reasonable opportunity to accept Him seem to be granted a measure of leniency.

But really...I've been exposed to so many religions...islam, christianity, judaism....I've even been introduced to hinduism. Why would god expect me to choose the bible. I mean..god also expects me to choose the koran. And god also expects me to deny Jesus Christ as a saviour. From my point of view, there is no fucking difference between the bible and the koran..I suppose my next question is, if god wanted me to accept Jesus Christ, why would he expose me to so many different religions. How do I know I should accept Jesus, or instead go to Mohammed. Or Vodoo-man. Or Xenu.

Its all rather ridiculous.

and false prophets does not negate the truth of Scripture. In fact, Scripture repeatedly warns about such false teachings and false prophets.

God expects you to choose His Word over false teachings. I don't see how that is an unfair expectation. His Word is widely available. It is, in fact, the most widely available book in the history of mankind.

"Sure, there's absolutely no reason to believe this book over any other book, but God still punishes not believing it with an eternity of torment."

"there's absolutely no reason to believe this book over any other book" Is that really what you believe? That's shocking, if true.

Give one good reason why one should be a Christian as opposed to a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist or anything else.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. He said it Himself. Do you call Him a liar, or an idiot, or an evil person trying to trick people? If so, what evidence do you have for that opinion?

Oh, wait... you can't.

"The Bible says so!"
"Why should we trust the Bible?"
"The Bible says so!"
:rofl:

If Scripture does not support your position, you just claim that the Scripture is made up - and for some unknown reason, no one thought to point out at the time it was written that it was made up? I say it happened, and I cite the historical document to prove it. The Gospel of John. You attempt to cast doubt upon that document, but you have no basis. You don't cite any reason to doubt the truth of the Gospel of John.

Do you really think that so many Christian martyrs would have gone to their deaths if they knew that what they were professing to believe in was a hoax? Why would they?

I'm utterly surprised at your failure of reasoning. Truly. Really.

Do you really think that so many Christian martyrs would have gone to their deaths if they knew that what they were professing to believe in was a hoax?

No, but that doesn't mean that what they believed was the truth. People die for things all the time.

The Gospel of John. You attempt to cast doubt upon that document, but you have no basis. You don't cite any reason to doubt the truth of the Gospel of John.

I have no more basis to believe the Gospel of John than I have to believe the Eddas. I guess I should start prepping for Ragnarok, eh?

Let's review. You claim that God condemns people for not only actions, but thoughts. Not only this, but your God endorses infinitely unjust punishment. All of this is justified, in your mind, because it's God. You endorse a philosophy of might makes right, which is abhorrent and disgusting. If God does possess the traits you claim, he deserves nothing more than contempt for his evil acts. It's views like yours that makes Gnosticism make sense, with your hateful evil God as the Demiurge.

...with a starship?

"your God endorses infinitely unjust punishment." Did I say that? I'd like to see where. I think I said the exact opposite. God's punishment - like all God's acts - is infinitely just.

"You endorse a philosophy of might makes right" Nope. Where did I say that?

"If God does possess the traits you claim, he deserves nothing more than contempt for his evil acts." Evil according to what objective standard? Or if you are saying that God is evil only as to your SUBJECTIVE standard, then who is to say that your standard is any more correct than God's?

By definition, it's unjust - the punishment is infinitely worse than the crime.

Evil according to what objective standard? - Evil according to the principle that "might makes right" is not morality, but merely a raw, naked exercise of power. You claim that you do not endorse "might makes right," yet your posts in this thread make clear that you believe god can do whatever he wants because he can.

Is your standard of what is evil objective or subjective?

Abuse of power is objectively evil. Are you arguing that it isn't?

That's circular reasoning. That's like saying "malfeasance is wrong." The statement has no meaning, because you are merely making a definitional statement.

How do you determine if an exercise of power is "abuse"? Let me guess: If it's evil, its "abuse"; and if it's "abuse," then its evil.

Why are things sins? Because they "anger" God.

Your God is an abusive stepfather with infinite power. Forgive me if I'm less than impressed with his so-called splendor.

God's law is designed for harmonious living. Things would be pretty nifty if people obeyed God's law, wouldn't you agree?

The laws you postulate are impossible to obey, because they lead to impossible conclusions.

...the Koran and the Torah and all of those other books I am sure, also warn of such things.
And they all expect us to accept them over Christianity.
What I'm saying is...if God wanted us to follow him, like REALLY wanted to save us...then wouldn't it be made just a bit clearer?
I mean, it's hard enough to follow all the rules, but you ALSO gotta worry about not having made the right choice?
With all the choices out there, how are we supposed to know the right one?
'The Bible says so' isn't a valid argument.
The Torah and Koran says so too. How are they less valid?

He doesn't even play safe, sane, and consensual! Apparently that's just fine for some people, though.

Not all religious books are equivalent. The Torah is true. However, it must be read together with the New Testament. The Koran is untrue.

Some statements are true, and some statements are false. If I you make a statement that is true, and I come along and make a false statement, is it correct to say that our statements are equivalent, and there is no distinguishing one from the other? Of course not.

As my one-time Greek landlady is fond of saying: "Truth is truth!" She's right.

How do you justify that the Bible is true and the Koran is false? From our vantage point, both are equally "justified" - which is to say, not at all.

That settles it.

If you don't want to believe it, that's your choice, and that is the beauty of free will. God doesn't make you believe in Him or follow Him.

That's the most absurd epistemology I've ever heard of. And I've heard of some pretty retarded epistemologies.

God doesn't make you believe in Him or follow Him.

If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to say "Fnord" and you say it, is it accurate to say that you weren't "made" to say that? No.

All my subject lines are 'yeah, but...'!
That argument still isn't much different from 'the Bible says so!'
I mean, you argue that the Bible is 'true' and the Koran isn't.
According to who? The Bible?
That's like saying 'George tells me he's napoleon. Frank tells me that HE's napoleon. Since George said it, he MUST be Napoloeon, but Frank is obviously lying.'

Napoleon tells me he's Napoleon. Frank tells me that HE's Napoleon. Since they contradict each other, neither can be Napoleon.

Try again.

The situation is precisely like:
"A says he's Napoleon. B says he's Napoleon. I have no more evidence to believe A than to believe B. If I guess incorrectly, I got shot."

Actually, it's not "precisely" identical, because being murdered is still finite.

I've gotta go now. Cheers!

"Sure, I believe you're going to suffer infinite punishment just for disagreeing with me, but have a good night!"

:eyes:

...where we're going, we'll be very, very warm.

Hell sounds vastly better than a place filled with self-righteous fucktards.

Look, a variation on 'yeah, but...' I'm on a roll!
I guess I used a poor example, since obviously, Frank can't be napoleon =P
HEre's a better one.
A stranger says 'I have a million bucks.' and another stranger says, 'nah, that guy's lying, it's ME that has a million bucks.'
No reason to believe one or the other. What they say is theoretically plausible, but have no way of knowing which, if either, is telling the truth.
Again 'the Bible says so!' doesn't really fly here...and 'God says so!' is pretty much arguing the same thing...

Oh man...Zeb, dude....seriously...lol..I'm at a loss for words, man.

Evoman: *knowing nothing about religion* Which is right, Koran or Bible?

Christian: Bible.

Mulsim: Koran.

Evoman: How do you know?

Christian: Bible says so, koran is wrong.

Muslim: Koran say so, bible is wrong.

Evoman: Wow...the choice seems to much clearer now. *throws both books in the garbage*

Evoman: Ah..much better *reads science book*

I read the arguments of people like this, and I almost, almost, see where Harris is coming from with his arguments against theism in general.

It's disgusting, really.

At least hes semi-liberal. Imagine all the people out there who believe this stuff, but also HATE. Zeb is at least polite when he tells us we are hell bound, lol.

Yeah, its enough to make you go hmmmm. And that why I always argue against applying the term Atheist Fundamentalist. Because I have yet to meet even the most "hardcore" atheist who is this thick.

I know I argue with the atheists around here a fair bit, but I hope that the differences in the respect I accord atheists and the respect (more accurately, lack thereof) I accorded Zeb is apparent. While I may disagree with you on justifications for theism, I don't hold atheists in any sort of contempt.

Believers in Hell, however... I find myself wishing there was a :spit: emote.

I don't know why someone would believe something so fervently. I'm wondering if maybe hes in some sort of cult, and its got me a little worried. I really try not to take things personally here.

And for your information, I did notice a difference in respect you accorded...and thank you kindly for having my back, hehe. Although, I'm sure, the only thing that resulted from it was both are heads (and Elronds head) hurting from smacking that damn wall.

I mean...well...I'm too tired to be coherent, lol. Bedtime. Thanks for all the interesting discussion. I'm sure zeb will be back for another round tomorrow.

which exists regardless of our beliefs about it. You are also right in saying that there is truth and there is falsehood. So then the question becomes,"How do you know?" How do you know that God exists, number one, and number two, what he/she/it is like? If you say the Bible, I would note that I could write a book featuring real historical characters, and real historical places, and have it take place during real historical events, only that book would proclaim me the messiah or the prophet, and tell of the wonderful miracles that I have performed, and claim that it has God's divine guarantee of truth. Could you claim I was wrong? Apparently you would try, because you just claimed the Koran is untrue, and it is the equivalent of the book I have just described. Again, I would ask: How do you know it isn't? What basis do you have for rejecting any set of Holy Scriptures, if you are willing to rely on someone elses' claim of divine guarantee?

Ok, so if not the Bible, where does knowledge about objective reality come from? The best method for experiencing objective reality is through the senses, although even those can be fooled. So what if you had a sensory experience of God and God's nature? Well, how do you know it was God? It might be any number of things that aren't God. What is the standard? Isn't personal experience the ultimate subjectivity? A person in India might have personal experience of Vishnu, and a person in America a personal experience of Jehovah, and a person in South America have experience of female spirits with wands in their genitalia.

So again I ask, how is knowledge of God possible? Perhaps it isn't. Perhaps we are supposed to take it on faith. But faith in who? As demonstrated we don't have the knowledge to make that determination, and what if we get it wrong? Eternal consequences, that's what?

In summary, the whole thing is arbitrary and an illegitimate grounds for any sort of authority. That is why I no longer claim to know anything about God's nature, or the existence of heaven or hell.

Saying that the people who wrote them have the logical reasoning skills of a two-year old is an insult to two-year olds.

for your valuable insight. Your words carry great weight, and you have given me much to think about.

Garbage in, garbage out. :shrug:

Why don't you post something intelligent, and we'll have a look?

Argument from cause fails because assuming that there is a "first cause" and that the first cause is the God described by the Bible, is an unjustified leap. We just don't know, and as of yet, have no way of finding out. Far better to admit that, and wait for more certainty, than leap to conclusions.

Argument from design fails because creationists have yet to find life that can be demonstrated to have arisen other than via the process of evolution.

Argument from morality fails because supernatural causes are not required to explain the rules that preserve communities. Simply put, any society that didn't have rules against murder and thievery would collapse in short order.



Archaelogical evidence suggests that the Old Testament began to be written and compiled in the 8th Century B.C.E. Why? Because some of the places listed as being inhabited weren't until that time period. It's also inaccurate in suggesting that Israel had always worshipped Jehovah, and that the periods of falling away that God is supposed to have punished were outside the norm. In fact, it was the other way around. Israel was polytheistic until, again, the 8th century, when the monotheistic priests triumphed politically.

Why the eighth century? At the time, the ruler of Judah, King Josiah was attempting to pick up the pieces of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, left over from the defeat of the Assyrians. At the same time, Egypt was attempting to extend its influence by moving North. Josiah had the Old Testament compiled and written in order to create a common history between the Northern Kingdom and Judah to justify Judah taking over, and, at the same time, inspire the people against Egypt. Thereafter, it was used to keep the Hebrews together during the Babylonian captivity.

These and other interesting archaeological conclusions can be found in the book UNEARTHING THE BIBLE by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. The summary is that the Old Testament (which I remind you is the fundamental source of the prophecies used by the Gospel writers to "prove" Jesus was the messiah), was actually a political document used to try to unify a nation and inspire conquest, and then as comfort during exile.



I could write a book in which I perform miracles, and it would have exactly the same credentials as the Bible's accounts of Jesus's miracles.
As for the impact of Christ on mankind, it's true, the story of Jesus has had a tremendous impact on humanity. How does that prove supernatural origins?
As for the prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled ,read CONSTANTINE's SWORD by James Carroll to discover that in all likelihood, the claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecies grew up as the disciples remembered Jesus using the traditional understandings of the Jewish messiah, which they thought he was, but symbolically, not literally. Then the next generation of Christians took the claims of fulfilled prophecies literally. That was the start of anti-semitism.



I could write a book...see where this is going?



I dealt with this already. Personal experiences are subjective unless, at the very least you can demonstrate them to others. Remember, we are talking about objective reality here.

I'd go on to the second link, but I think the point has been adequately made.

Somehow I doubt that it'll do any good, though.

Thanks for taking the time to refute the links, very helpful =)

universally accepted among Christians.

You're very well indoctrinated and can quote the standard evangelical/fundamentalist lines with the best of them, but I come from a tradition that is based on the "three-legged stool" of Scripture, tradition, and reason, and nobody tells me that I have to believe certain doctrines to be on the right path.

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Micah 6:8

]"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, 'Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'
He said unto him, 'What is written in the law? how readest thou?'
And he answering said, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.'
And he said unto him, 'Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.' Luke 10: 25-28.

I am hard-pressed to understand how that person can consider herself a Christian. It seems to me that substitutionary atonement is the very heart of Christian belief.

Consider the following passages:

“Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (Isa. 53:4-6). “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). “Christ also suffered for us...who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness–by whose stripes you were healed” (1 Pet. 2:21,24). “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13). “Christ was offered to bear the sins of many” (Heb. 9:28). “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3). The “Lord Jesus Christ...gave Himself for our sins” (Gal. 1:3-4). “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many” (Mt. 20:28; cf. Mk. 10:45). He “bore our sins in His own body on the cross” (1 Pet. 2:24). "By His wounds you are healed" (1 Pet. 2:24) "For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised." (2 Cor. 5:14-15)

Must all these passages be ignored, in your view? If so, what is left of Christianity? And whence comes salvation? Do we earn it by doing good works? "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

suggests that Isaiah is not necessarily talking about someone in the future, but possibly about someone in his own time. Many of the Scriptural passages commonly considered prophecies of Christ's coming were retroactively applied and are not necessarily about Jesus if you look at their contexts.

We are saved by the grace of God, and while Jesus death on the cross figures in there, the idea of him simply taking our condemnation, "God demanded restitution, so Jesus gave it" is too simplistic. While crucifixion is a horrible way to die, it's not suffering on the cosmic scale that one would think necessary for paying for the sins of all humanity for ever more.

I don't know HOW God's grace works, only that it works, just as I don't understand exactly HOW my computer works, only that it does. Paul thought he knew the mechanism by which God's grace occurs, but did he really? Does any theologian?

I'm also not a hard and fast Christ-is-the-only-true-way type of Christian, either. I believe that God is too vast and complex for any human to understand, and so we are all like the fable of the blind men and the elephant. Our cultures determine what aspects of God we emphasize, and these religious concepts influence our cultures in a never-ending feedback cycle. Our religions are limited by what we as humans can understand.

I have a feeling that EVERYONE is in for a big surprise when they die.

The big shining faceless man in a robe from Jack T. Chick's tracts, we're ALL fucked.

'For sinning.' That doesn't answer 'why.' I'm asking how that makes it justifiable.

'Sin.' Again. The word 'sin' doesn't fly with me. Every single person on Earth is a sinner. All fall short of righteousness. We live constant lives of sin. What makes the soul of one lighter than the soul of another? God's judgement? Is it God's purpose to nitpick and pore over every detail of our lives and thought we ever had?

'Yeah, it's awful, but no one has to choose that.' How is that a choice? Some people never even hear about Jesus. Do they have a choice? Or are they just damned automatically? Some people never get a chance to be converted. Did they have a choice, or are they damned automatically? Why would God let a person suffer for their entire life, and then subject to an eternity of torture after their death because they weren't Christian? That seems horribly sadistic and cruel to me. How is that an example of love?

'There is just 'reality.' One of is right and the other is wrong.' So what makes you right and me wrong? The passages in the bible referring to 'Hell' can be interpreted very broadly, due to translation issues and interpretation. After all, we can't take the Bible literally...at least, not without self-contradiction.

'That doesn't make it disappear. It either exists or it doesn't, regardless of your rejection of the notion. I say it exists because Jesus said so.' See above answer.

'That seems remarkably cavalier to me.' I say what I said...because if I died and found out that there is a hell...that would crush every spirtual notion I have ever had. It would cause me untold despair.
Anyway, supposedly, if I refuse to accept Hell, I'm damned to it anyway. What am I supposed to do?

I really and seriously doubt that you do.

Everything I have seen you say is in strict accordance with your very narrow, rigid, fundamentalist understanding of the Bible and overall way of thinking.

I really have to wonder how you or anyone can really live with believing the kind of God you believe in. How can you love and joyfully serve that kind of God?

How can you get any joy and enjoyment out of life if you know that many of your fellow humans are headed for hell if they happen to miss out on accepting Christ in this lifetime? How can you accept the awful duty of telling others about Christ, motivated by such a concern?

Zeb, I am not exactly certain where you are on the political spectrum, but I see your rigid thinking and regurgitation of talking points from the Bible and from other fundamentalist Christians to be no different from the stubborn loyalty of the 30% of Americans who still support shrub, or from the attitude of shrub himself, "stay the course in Iraq".

In fact I really don't see your rigid adherence to the Bible and to fundamentalist Christianity to be any different from the unquestioning loyalty and obedience which "good" Germans gave to Hitler, the Fuhrer. Both you and the "good" Germans unquestioningly submit to a higher authority.

It is not much of a leap from believing in the kind of God you believe in, to committing atrocities against others, supposedly motivated by your concern about their "salvation" and their "own good". In fact that seems to be the precise motivation of atrocities committed by Christians in the past, such as the Inquisition, the Salem witch burnings, etc.

As Voltaire said, as long as people believe absurdities, they will continue to commit atrocities.

I know that I, for one, am not going to be intimidated into accepting your God's so called "gift" of "salvation" under the terms which you believe he offers such "gift".

Even if I do accept your God's "gift" for purely selfish reasons, i.e. for fire insurance, I know that I would be living a lie to really accept it. For instance, I totally reject the grim obligation and duty to worry about whether other people are "saved" or "unsaved", and to tell others about Christ motivated by such a concern.

In fact, there is a vast gulf between us on this issue - but probably not on other issues. Politically, I support social justice, protection of individual rights, conservation of environmental resources and protection of the natural environment, good government, fairness, the rights of workers, protection of children, etc. I oppose racism, anti-Semitism, oppression, unfairness, crime, sexual exploitation, corruption, and hypocrisy. That said, I am undoubtedly not as liberal as many on this board. Still, I am confident that you and I could agree on most things. Religion is apparently the exception.

You complain of my "regurgitation of talking points from the Bible," and cite that as evidence that I have no thoughts of my own. I will wear that as a badge of honor. I could not think of a better source of "talking points" that God's own Word.

Contrary to your apparent view of me, I am not "rigid" in the sense of being intellectually incurious. I am, in fact, very interested in other people's points of view. That's one of the reasons I like DU.

I take exception to your comments about me being akin to a "good German" who supported the Nazis. I don't know whether that is intended to be funny or ironic, but it is neither. Of all posters in this forum, I think that I stand out as the one who has most often expressed opposition to anti-Semitism. Also, I have repeatedly pointed out the evils of Nazism in the numerous threads regarding good and evil, including the thread I originated entitled "How do you define evil?" Please do not smear me with the Nazi label. It is unfair and inaccurate.

The Nazis served Hitler. I serve God. There is a difference.

'God's own word' does that mean you think that the Bible should be interpreted literally?

It should be read in a manner that harmonizes with other Scripture.

what you mean by that.

"The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly." Westminster Confession I, 9

linky

That explains a lot.

and Hobbes. Dilbert, too ;)

The underlying psychology of absolute unquestioning acceptance of any authority, whether Hitler or the Bible, is the same. I stand by my comparison of you with a "good German", and do not apologize for it. I think it is perfectly fair, and right to the point.

This is true even if I either fully or generally agree with your positions on political issues, which I am happy to hear about, and even if you are not guilty of anti-Semitism, or of any of the specific sins or crimes of the Nazis.


No, I don't agree with you that there is a difference between the two, given the character which you ascribe to your God, which character you make abundantly clear in posts elsewhere on this thread.

This paragraph by Alice Miller, in her book titled For Your Own Good, and subtitled Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence illustrates the psychology behind unquestioning obedience to any authority.



(My emphasis added)

http://www.nospank.net/fyog10.htm#central

In her book Alice Miller describes the brutal upbringing, or "poisonous pedagogy", which especially pervaded childrearing in the past, but is not completely gone today. She particularly notes that of all the perpetrators of the Nazi holocaust, they all without exception had a "strict", or brutal upbringing. In particular she has a chapter on Hitler.

Incidentally, the phrase "for your own good" was one my father used many, many times. Many times when I would make an honest mistake, honestly forget something, or something was not in accordance with my dad's standards, he would decide, in Godlike fashion, that I needed to be yelled at like I had committed a terrible crime or sin. And he would always say he was doing it "for my own good", and that he was doing it with the best of motives.

I came to realize, about a year after my dad died, the abusive nature of the way he had treated me many times, particularly when he was doing it "for my own good". I came to realize how angry I still was with him, and I also came to realize that Christianity had not helped me to deal with him those times when he was borderline abusive. That is the biggest single issue which led me to my dissatisfaction with Christianity, and eventually parting company with outward practice of the faith.

I have been in therapy to deal with my issues about my dad.

And since I don't fear my dad any more, and realize the abusive nature of his treatment of me, I don't fear a God envisioned by fundamentalist Christians who will send me to hell if I don't accept the absolute authority of everything in the Bible.