Santa Claus is why i became an Atheist at age 5, when i found out santa was a lie, i figured the

rest of the Xmas story was bullshit too.. like gOD always spying on me and gonna burn me in hell for stupid crap. after i got out of the cynical phase it was a liberating experience, i studied the greek, nordic and other pantheons and found out that gODs have Raped Human Women throughout the ages.. nothing new there.

when i discovered Buddhism with their gOds stuck and suffering in their own hells i was HOME.. Buddhism is based on logic and 'Training the Mind' not plugging it up with crap and fear.

but we all have to start where we are, i am just glad i started at age 5..

Santa's the secular part. Jesus is the religious part. Even my Jewish in-laws have Santa come and visit their children/grandchildren.

:shrug:

NT

:shrug:

...not so much if either exists, but how you act in your belief towards it. Most religious people do not have faith beyond the analogy I made. DUers of faith are probably in the rare 1-2% of people of faith that truly do good in the name of their faith instead of horrible, horrible things.

You almost sound like the kind of people who think that only 3% of the population is gay because they've never met any.

Just as an example, the relief center on the Mississippi Gulf Coast where I volunteered last January had a pretty steady stream of volunteers from churches throughout the nation coming in week after week. (About 150 people at a time can sleep on their cots in a gym, and they're usually full. No proselytizing done, either.)

It's true that of the less than 1/3 of people in Oregon who have a religious affiliation, the majority are fundamentalists or Mormons, but Oregon is unusual, and even in Oregon, the two largest churches in Portland are First Unitarian and Trinity Episcopal Cathedral, both of which do a lot for the community.

Here in Minnesota, most people do have a religious affiliation, and they're mostly pretty normal, with most of the fundamentalists being a recent product of suburban alienation and 25 years of dumbing down.

I have rarely met intelligent faithful people-- even in Oregon. In MA, most of the Catholics are insane, and in Utah, the Mormons are 99% insane. FWIW, highest estimations of total % of self-identified gay individuals rarely is higher than 10%. Even if 1 in 10 people of faith "get it", the numbers are still apalling.

We'll probably find little to agree on, so I'll leave it here. I find organized religion to be misused in most situations.

Namely Springfield Mo, Ashcroft country, Talent country, home of world headquarters of Assembly of God churches and Fawell's alma mater, Baptist Bible College. It is fundy hell there, and yet even so I find that your estimate is off, by at least one order of magnitude. Many people of faith do ongoing acts of good in the name of their faith, whatever faith that is. Yes, much evil has been done in the name of various religions, but much good has been done also.

things **because it's the right thing to do** rather than to do it "in the name of their faith". The latter seems like being good because Santa's watching and you want more stuff, or like buying your way into heaven.

Except in the case of Santa Claus.

I was raised in a Catholic family and was taught to do good things because doing good is the right thing to do.

I also think it's self-defeating to say one "type" of morality is more evolved than another.

Children believe in Santa with absolutely no evidence to back up his existence.

Likewise, adults believe in gods.

"santa" derives from "saint nicholas", and is therefore quite religious, christian to be specific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

yes, there are jews who assimilate into america's christian culture and adopt some of the christian rituals and so on, but that does not make it secular.

Just like "good-bye" is secular, though it derives from "god be with you." Etymology alone can't make something secular or sectarian; the thing has to be judged on its context and cultural manifestation.

The modern Santa Claus owes much more to Thomas Nast as to St. Nicholas.

That's why arguments can get so heated when discussion religion.

My religion has no name, as it is my own deeply held spiritual beliefs based on my own feelings of God and our personal relationship. It is based on strict logic as well. But I, like everyone else, think my logical religion is better than your logical religion LOL

:P

;)

I am a Christian myself, but by no means a mainstream one.

If I am wrong, I gave up some good sinning here on earth! :rofl:

:toast:

(though truth be told, I've done my share of sinnin... Let's hope the good Lord does his share of forgivin! LOL)

there is no argument on anything, you are invited to explore for yourself, if it works for you great, and if not you dont go to hell, no one argues or judges you.. just move on..

Reincarnation, for example? If so, then it's a religion.

If it does not maintain a belief in the supernatural, then I guess we can call it a philosophy instead of a religion.

in Islam, it is all Faith.. there is no logic in a spirit..ghost that is all powerful and created the universe and rules it jealously, which is actually a quality of a Demi-gOD, and will send you to a burning hell for ever for not believing in him and showering him with adoration, with no empirical data to prove it.. i fail to see any logic in that.

i do see see the logic that there is suffering and it has a cause, desire, and the freedom is from it, which is a methodology found in the 8 fold path.. which is essentially living a peaceful live and training the mind not to believe all the crap .. religion deems it's followers special and chosen.. Budddhism sees all beings as one, all equal, all unrealized Buddha's

And I say that's one of the most illogical things I've ever heard. But to each their own. But you say everyone else's spirituality but yours is illogical, well I say yours is too. That's the way it is. Everyone has their own view.

That's why we must be tolerant and not spew provocative junk such as "You're beliefs aren't logical, mine are".

noticing a "oneness" with a rock, with trees, etc.
The notion that the physical being that I am, although separate, is a part of the whole is quite compelling.

Every day, you and I drink dinosaur piss. There is nothing that you take in through breathing, eating, or drinking that is not recycled someone else.
The analogy concerning numbers of molecules in a spoon full of water was particularly useful--the one that says, given enough time, if you pour a teaspoon full of piss into the ocean, eventually it will mix to the point that you could not remove a teaspoon of water from the ocean anywhere on earth without it's containing at least one molecule of that original teaspoonful you poured in.

To me , living in this air ocean of bits of dead creatures,spare dna, wastes and so on floating in it, we all are taking in and excreting bits of dead Jesus and the food he ate, the water he drank.

That helped a lot on the "oneness" thing. We are all, people, animals, rocks, trees, right down to the lowliest microbe, one thing.
I find it all rather pleasing and comforting.

from contant bombardments of small asteroids and particles as we dance around the Universe avoiding any further big collisions. But, to conclude your analogy, you are generally breathing, eating and drinking a lot of space dust, with some local flavours added.

TRYPHO

Is it worship Christ or try to act as Christ is said to have advocated? I think there is a lot of logic is some types of Christianity, but little in fundamentalismityness

That word, god, is so loaded.

We forget that all language is hypothetical and all too often confused with the "reality" that it only models.

I don't believe in what I think many people mean when they use the word "god", the average concept of this word is pretty immature.

Why should we necessarily be capable of SAYING anything true about whatever a "god" is? Wouldn't it be impossible to say anything right, accurate, true about a "god", by it's own nature a divinity cannot be defined by the finite and language is definitely finite.

words, is an error. If you disagree with me about the nature of language, you'll have to demonstrate to me how it can, indeed, define anything "divine" and also how doing so is not blasphemy. Examples please.

I also do not think Buddhism is a religion, nor is it about whatever a "god" is. Tell me how it is in fact religious and concerned with "god(s)".

There is a difference between "faith" and "religion".

The American Taliban are good at religion, but faith doesn't seem to be in the lexicon. I had a discussion about this in the summer with an episcopal priest (a man who is also a scientist) this past summer. The shoulds and musts in religion blind folks to the giving and doing part of faith.

transgressions

And that is all ... I'm not chasing any flame bait today.

...because there IS a Santa Clause.

But first you must learn what the meaning of "IS" is.

When you have done that, look around and you will see that there has always been a Santa Claus - and there will always be a Santa Claus.

Meanwhile take some time and go see "The Natvity Story". It may inspire you and dispel some of the harm done to you as a child.

I unfortunately found nothing inspiring about that particular movie. Mary looked like a bored spoiled gum chewing teenager throughout the first half of the movie, and then she was carried around by either long suffering Joseph or that poor donkey throughout the entire second half. I think God chose this woman because she was tough and strong and resilient. I bet she walked along with her husband next to the donkey for most of the trip and probably did the cooking and washing as well. I did like the guy who played Herod, though. He was thoroughly reprehensible and made me squeamish every time he appeared on the scene.

I was around that age myself, or younger. My father was a Baptist minister and pastored a small country church. He had agreed to mentor a young man who wanted to preach. It was not necessary to attend seminaries back then. Anyway, the young man wanted to deliver the Christmas sermon, and my father agreed to let him do it. When it came time for the sermon to begin, the young man changed what he was suppose to speak on, and instead spoke on the evil of Santa Claus. Before my father could gather his wits and intercede, most of the children were in tears.

My parents explained to me, as they had the older children when they got old enough to know the truth, that Santa Claus was not a lie, but a teaching tool to help children understand the spirit of Christmas was the spirit of giving. I won't get into the religious aspect of it, but I never felt lied to, neither did my children when I taught them the same lesson.

I am no longer religious per se, but I do believe there is something "out there" than is more powerful than we human beings. Whether it is a supreme being or whatever, I am not sure. I believe you should come to peace with your own beliefs and (as long as it does not hurt or exploit anyone else) believe what you will. What I personally do not believe in is organized religions.

age of 15 to perceive beyond the realm of religion.. it is a tribal behavior, when the mind expands to the next level, the world view it can never go back.. that is why they do anything to keep the Truth from you even lie to children, then crush their joy and happiness and humiliate them.

that is why the religions denie that evolution exists.. it mean they are only a step in a larger process.. they are not unique, chosen or special, there are no baby sitters, no quick fix, no free lunch salvation.. you have to work for it, there is no grace..

I believe you have the right to believe anything you want to, but you do worry me. Your anger and bitterness are not healthy. It is not my place to pass judgment on you but if your writings here are evidence of your true self, then you may need to somehow find peace for your own sake. Hatred is a heavy burden to carry. Good luck to you.

Put down that broad brush before you put someone's eye out.

I am an anti-theist too, but I don't use the "all religion" stereotype because it's unfair and inaccurate.

Most liberal believers don't practice their religion with the malevolence you attribute to them.

They don't use it as a weapon.

And from what I've read about Buddha, he wouldn't want you to use his religion that way either.

because our kid likes it. When she'll stop liking it, he'll stop coming.
It's a myth, a tradition - quite at odds with fundamentalist - I saw one of the TV evangelists shooting Santa on stage in a purist statement.
We all take journeys that may start or end in different places. It's important that we take them - it's part of our growing up.

Thanks to someone who chose to remain nameless my little boy was very surprised to find a stocking with candy and a DVD movie hanging on the back door.

I don't go for the mythology, but the spirit is what counts. That's the biggest lesson I learned this year thanks to my kids, my DU friends and those Santa's who give anonymously.

I read an item in Dear Abby of all places, which recounted how a struggling mom found an extra $3,000 in her checking account. She thought the funeral home had not cashed the check for her father's funeral. But it had cashed the check, and she found, through looking at bank records, somebody had deposited $3,000 into her account, on Christmas Eve, yet. She never found out who it was.

Santa's all of us, if you want to put it simply. You could also say that God is all of us, too.

..."There is no Santa Claus and the Teacher is pregnant." (both were true at the time).

I barely remember it, but am also told that my statement resulted in a great wailing and gnashing of teeth among my fellow students. I was apparently sent to the principle's office, to await a meeting with my Teacher and my mum.

Anyway, early realizations of truth are always good...

"Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan was the devil, and the government is lying about September 11th..." *Riot ensues*

Back in 3rd grade I said that Hawaii shouldn't be a state. Everyone just kinda laughed. :shrug:

My daughter got angry with me, but I thought why lie to the child?

That wasn't your decision to make.

How a child learns the "truth" about Santa, and from whom, can have a negative effect on them.

So now your granddaughter thinks her mom lied to her and that good old granny is the only one who can tell her the truth.

You must be so proud of yourself. :puke:

that wasn't your place, unless her mother and father asked you to do so, which they obviously didn't. Why would you do something like that?

Various people approach spirituality in various ways that work for them:shrug:

I know Buddhism is totally based on mocking others religious beliefs. :eyes:

Incidentally, Christmas has about as much to do with Christianity as an All You Can Eat Dim-Sum bar has to do with Buddhism.

"Incidentally, Christmas has about as much to do with Christianity as an All You Can Eat Dim-Sum bar has to do with Buddhism."

True indeed.

but I look at stuff like pictures from the Hubble telescope, or huge waterfalls, or all the intricate systems that go to make up a living being...
I really have trouble believing that whatever might be responsible for this is going to give a flying BFD about every single action by everybody who's ever shown up on this particular planet. :shrug:

It wasn't that I equated Santa and Jesus, it was that I figured if my mom fibbed about Santa she probably fibbed about Jesus, too.