Bye bye

As a newer DUer, I assumed that one of the interesting forum was R/T, and against all advice I tried it. I was wrong. I found it dominated not by those interested in the subject, but by those whose consuming passion was to bash religion and to castigate anyone with a religious impulse. I won't list the personal attacks I have received in the past few days. To assume you have the absolute truth and anyone who holds another view is either evil or stupid is the mark of fundamentalists, religious or secular. I continue to learn from literate agnostics and atheists and in other venues have serious discussions with them. But obviously not here. A closed mind is a closed mine. I will continue to post under "editorials' in which I will argue for justice for the poor and left out, the end of the wars, the just solution to the system in which the rich get richer and the poor get screwed, marriage and other rights for the GLBT community, the rights of unions and labor, the defeat of the Tea Party and the GOP---and much more, all of which have come to me out of my religious convictions.
thats my opinion

People are rude at times. The Gun forum has pro and anti gun people who attack each other the same.

You need to report/alert any poster who insults you.

I am an atheist myself but understand people who are religious.

Try staying around and alert the posters who are mean. The post will be locked or deleted.

Good luck!

(I kill myself):rofl:

You wouldn't know because

most non-atheists stopped

trying to talk over and against

the insults and bigotry

long ago.

Disagreement is.

like the law

are often open to "interpretation".

and if you don't like the result, take it up with them. I did a mod tour and I can guarantee you there is no conspiracy. It's a tough job, with alerts flying all over, and they do the best they can.

:cry:

But he was so GOOD.

Please forgive us!

Please come back and tell us what we are lacking!

We will discuss it with you respectfully!

:cry:

isn't enough. If you want to prove something you have to have an informed opinion. If you want to inspire you need an opinion that expresses something other than petulant indignation.

It's difficult to inspire people if you aren't really inspired yourself.

You know nothing of this man, yet you claim he lacks inspiration. You should feel proud to have joined the fundie mob in chasing a decent and honorable man out of here. How did you react to the bullies of your childhood? Did you stand up to them? Did you defend their victims? Or did you cheer them on? Remember, this site has a search function?

Please do show some example of what the hell you are talking about.

It gets really old. It really does. Just because people didn't just say "Oh, how right you are" and actually dared to challenge what was being presented, we are told that we are the same as the RW fundies. Fuck that.

Please point out the ones you think are worse than the RWers. If you want, you can PM the links to me and I'll post them so you don't take a mod hit if that is what you are worried about.

Until you can point me to the things that atheists have said in R/T that are as bad as RW fundies, your point is just hysterical posturing.

On re-reading some of the responses to his various threads, I see an outright dismissal of religious faith and anyone who claims that faith. I find the subject of religion and theology interesting and it often leads to lively debate. What I find here is little debate and lots of snark. Why do people have to attack the thinker, rather than the thought? I have family members who are RW fundies and have engaged in more civil conversation with them than I have seen here. I think it comes down to respect.

in statements is not "outright dismissal", nor is asking questions which the OP is free to respond to. Those things are the heart of meaningful discussion intended to get at the truth. Your characterization is pure baloney, as has already been pointed out to you. And yet you repeat it without justification, and wonder why you and your "friend" get so little respect here.

What "truth" are we trying to get at?

Whether any "god" or "gods" exist outside of the minds of their believers, and if so, what is their nature and what makes them "gods". And whether religion on balance is or has been a benefit or a detriment to human society.

Btw, thought you had said your piece. And will your "friend" be joining this discussion, or is this just another hit and run? And will you be making any attempt to justify your use of the term "outright dismissal", or are you going to dodge that as well?

and I doubt he would even recognize my screen name. I wish him well and have no further interest in discussing him.
So, moving on to gods and their existence, or lack thereof.
My thoughts on this subject are as follows:
1. I do not "believe" in a Creator God
2. I accept infinity as a scientific truth, which precludes both creation and the end of times.
3. When people ask me do I believe in God, I usually answer that God to me means infinity, thereby defying definition.
4. The biblical God is a mere construct designed to control and manipulate the masses. Some good stories. A little history. Lots of nonsense.
5. Organized religion, with few exceptions, has perpetrated more harm than good, by inciting warfare and hatred, peddling fear and subjugating women and exploiting the poor.
6. Despite all of the above, I respect the personal beliefs of others, including people of faith. I don't consider them to be more or less enlightened by their devotion.
7. I am very open to the possibility of a spiritual existence

1. Neither do I. Nor in a Protector God, or a god who hears prayers, sends angels, works miracles, heals diseases or makes the other team's field goal kicker miss.

2. I'm not convinced that this rises above the level of speculation. Our physics and cosmology simply have not reached the level where we know if the question "What happened before the Big Bang?" is meaningful, or more along the lines of "what's north of the North Pole?"

3. Well, that conception of "God" is a individual one, and as such, not really open to dispute. While I find it a curious phenomenon that some people seem to have a deep desire to call something in their life "god", regardless of whether it is supernatural or anything resembling it, as long as they don't demand special or public status for their personal notion, it doesn't really disturb me.

4. In the here and now, I don't disagree much, though if you go back to the roots, even the Hebrew god started as more than a "mere construct".

5. No disagreement there, but your friend seems to have a very different opinion, as do many apologists on this board. Should the truth be argued, or not?

6. If they stay strictly personal, other people's beliefs are no more than source of amusement or curiosity to me, and require no comment. But you know as well as I do that religious beliefs in this country are not kept personal. A significant number of people feel the need, and what's more, the right, to impose their beliefs on everyone, by whatever means possible.

7. "Spiritual" is a Rorschach word...it means something different to everyone...as such, each individual's spiritual life (however they chose to conceive it) is not something open to dispute.

Was that so difficult? Why should your friend have such difficulty with the same thing?

Regarding my friend, I don't speak for him or his beliefs. I love and respect him as a friend and human being. His faith belongs to him and I've never heard him impose it on another. He is the most atypical "Christian" I have ever met.

I feel so bad that he's leaving. Not.

"How did you react to the bullies of your childhood?"

I stood up to them, like I did to your friend. And they stopped being a bully to me, running away like the cowards they were. And look, there goes your friend. Coincidence?

That you would consider someone a bully because he professes his faith when surrounded by rabid fundamentalists, only goes to show that he found himself in a snake pit rather than a discussion forum. I agree with most atheist thinking, but the hostility and intolerance displayed by some atheists in this forum is as shameful as any displayed by the most right wing fundamentalists. Your rush to judgment does little to serve your cause.

and immediately became upset that it wasn't an echo chamber for his personal theology. Throw in the insults, as he did, and he/you are honestly surprised that people got upset? I guess it's us atheists that are supposed to "turn the other cheek" while someone bashes us. How dare we speak our minds and defend ourselves, lest we be compared to "snakes."

You assume he is upset. You're wrong. He's disappointed, because he thought there would be actual intelligent discussion. I'm not surprised that he decided to opt out. Have you guys devolved to the point where you no longer want to actually debate issues. He wasn't proselytizing. He wanted to engage in discussions and didn't realize how it worked around here. Now he does. Your loss.

"None of us would want to live in a society without some sort of an ethical sensitivity based on solid religious faith." - A broad brush smear and assumption that says anyone without faith is unethical or immoral.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x277790

"Right, Dawkins just represents another type of fundamentalist" - Making the accusation of atheist fundamentalism, an oxymoron and worn out ad hom against atheists who refuse to be silent, qualifies as flamebait here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x277387#277819

"Before I filed the first time I was warned not to because this was said to be the nastiest forum in the whole gamuts of topics, peopled basically by those who want to take cheep shots at religion, not by those interested in thoughtful conversation." - Whining, in an OP no less, about the fact that people here dare to discuss religion from all points of view by using a Chic-like characterization isn't going to endear him to anyone.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x277387#277819
(This whole OP was an exercise in insulting anyone who disagreed with him.)

"It is probably easier for you to be judgmental." - Once again attacking and insulting someone because they called his M.O.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x277387#277824

"First, I am curious why a sturdy handful seem to despise anything that has to do with religion and theology, and use their frequent comments for no other purpose than to attack the notion that religion and/or theology have anything to say." - Yet ANOTHER example of turning those who disagree with him into caricatures of themselves.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x278007
(You can see my full response to that full OP in #4, which he didn't bother responding to.)

There are more, but in short, every OP that your friend has posted (and how do you have such insight into this friend's thoughts, BTW?), except for the Adam and Eve one, was loaded with stereotypes and broad brushes, all in the guise of calling for "intelligent discussion." Your friend's name could be Genevieve. ;)

And that's what your friend acted like. I'm not surprised he decided to opt out either, given his bullying behavior and steadfast refusal to have any kind of dialog.

Here's just one of his insults:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=277790&mesg_id=277790
None of us would want to live in a society without some sort of an ethical sensitivity based on solid religious faith.

How the hell is a non-believer supposed to take that? He ignored every opportunity to clarify or, better yet, APOLOGIZE. But then, bullies never do.

I've posted in this forum and have defended people of faith here.

If you search enough you will find that I have already explained the value of faith to you and why your friend left. It might even be in my DU journal.

I'm an artist raised in the rural south. I've stood up to waaaay more religious bullies than you can count. And yet I've still defended people of faith right here. When you finally venture out of your own comfort zone maybe you'll understand why.

Try some humility. It might serve you well. You attack a man you do not know. A man who has spent a lifetime fighting for the rights we all enjoy today. Your outright dismissal of his ideas and beliefs is so out of line. Why do you feel a heated debate can't be conducted without personal attacks. Those who have demonstrated their prejudice towards this man because of his faith, have lost a wonderful opportunity to engage in an energetic, thoughtful and inspiring debate. That seems to be the M.O. in this forum, just like the Gungeon. Chase away anyone who disagrees with militant atheism so we can get back to our circle jerk. Kinda like FOX NEWS.

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=278135&mesg_id=278146

Which went unanswered. And the post above. Which also went unanswered. If your friend is the indomitable champion of the downtrodden you say he is surely he can withstand the slings and arrows of a few truculent athiests. If he got a theology degree at a university he had to put up with worse than this crowd. It appears his faith, much like your attitude toward self defense, requires a hothouse environment to thrive. In fact, your attitudes seem remarkably similar. Are you in the same hothouse? Or are you the same person?

Good grief, what planet do you and he live on, where questioning or challenging assertions constitutes "dismissal"? HE'S the one who strutted in here, professing to want meaningful discussion, but refusing to do anything but whine when his posts weren't greeted with rousing applause. If anything your "friend" is the one who dismissed any possible discussion of the issues that he himself raised by refusing to respond to anyone who didn't agree with him wholeheartedly.

And how the heck did we "chase away" anyone?

How can you tell me he is decent and honorable?

(See how that shit cuts both ways? Yeah, he didn't either.)

I've seen how he treats his fellow man, including those who disagree with him and do not share his faith, including me. I have read some of his books which are insightful and thoughtful. I know him to be a man who fights on the front lines for the common man and the impoverished and down trodden. I know him as a man who has fought for civil rights here and abroad for decades and continues to do so in his ninth decade. We all owe him and those like him who have fought and marched unselfishly without hatred, non violently for the rights so many of us enjoy today. That's how I can tell you. Now, how can you tell me he isn't?

Can we talk to Charles now?

I've said my piece.

that this was all just a stunt to gather material for his next attempt at a book.

So you'll all be relieved. Now let's move on to other discussions.

Have a nice day, though.

He could have been that prick that I saw screaming at his girlfriend(?) last night when I was at Rack Daddy's :P

"To assume you have the absolute truth and anyone who holds another view is either evil or stupid is the mark of fundamentalists"

Funny, because revealed religions (such as Christianity and Islam) claim explicitly to have the absolute truth about God and reality and decry all non-believers and heathens and heretics are all at once evil and to be converted or killed. To personally believe and practice otherwise makes you a less than devout follower which begs the question as to why you bother ascribing yourself to the religion in the first place.

The thing to ask yourself, if you honestly care to know the answer, is why do you feel that your convictions come as a result of your religion when you have obviously been exposed to many people here already whose same convictions did not; and do you honestly feel better off, those convictions aside, including the venomous and vile components of religion and the unmeasurable suffering it has brought to the human race.

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as a religious fundie who will not partake in a conversation.

I ask because atheism doesn't have any "fundamental" beliefs. How can you be a fundamentalist without fundamentals?

Words have meanings. And you are just tossing "fundamentalists" around as an ad hom.

individuals who don't actually understand the idea of atheism and seek to claim their principles and ideas as some sort of dogma to which all atheists conform. I would say that such a person isn't actually an atheist in the logically consistent sense but then I would be assailed from the religious claiming that I am guilty of a no true scotsman fallacy.

of someone trying to say that atheists are just as bad as the RW religious.

Tell tale signs include the phrases: ad hommnium, straw man, true scot's man and flamebait.

The definite tell is responding to a Boggatta poll.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry. I just couldn't resist. :hide:

:spank: Me bad.

Just treat the experience as you would cable-TV. You're not going to like all the programs, and certainly not all the characters and messages, so just change the channel if it gets tedious.

Move on, Charles. Move on.

Unfortunately, you are trying to pass off your inability to engage in a free discussion about why your beliefs mean anything as others being rude.

I have homework for you, if you want. Go out on any other forum on the internet where it is not moderated to just be an echo chamber and take on some of the people out there. It will make it feel like R/T is a room of warm fuzzies and hugs.

You're such a victim, you're so oppressed, waah, waah.

Some of us grew up in religious homes and finally began to question the tenets of the faith and its practitioners' often hateful, superstitious and/or fearful reactions to anything or anyone who dared to be "different," ie, to be themselves and not pretend to believe in a theology that insists on hurting others.

In my case, I had lots of deep questions, most of which were answered by "we won't know until we're dead," etc. One can only take that as an answer until reaching adulthood.

I finally took the time to read the bible from end to end, and by the time I was through I realized I don't—can't—believe it anymore.

I refuse to support the religion industry and encourage others with questions to step out of themselves momentarily and examine their belief systems and WHY they believe. In my case it was entirely fear-based. Fear is not a healthy reason to believe, or pretend to believe, anything.

Please, go back to your whining and persecution complex. But realize that others have ideas and beliefs of their own, and while browbeating or playing the victim has apparently brought you something in your own circle of friends, this is the real world and you can't make up your own "facts" or censor anyone who doesn't buy into your lifestyle choice.

Unless the subject was you.

You waltz into a well-established discussion forum with the expressed intent of debating large issues, but refuse to do so on any but your own terms. Did you think that would endear you to anyone? You plastered the room with OPs but, despite claiming to want meaningful discussion and despite repeated promises to answer challenges to your posts, you did not engage in a single substantive discussion with anyone who disagreed with your positions. NOT ONE. Instead, you ran off to start new OPs and to complain about "personal attacks" (while never citing one). Rather than using the attitudes of others here as an excuse to take your ball and go home, you might try re-evaluating your own attitude.

This room is about getting at the truth, not about the feelings of any one individual. Getting at the truth is not for the thin-skinned. If the only way you learn and improve yourself is by having people agree with you or treat your opinions with obsequious politeness, then this is definitely not the place for you.

More truth than he deserved...but thanks,
that was beautiful.

Perfectly stated.

You post a bunch of shit, refuse to answer the questions posed to you, and when you don't get the response you would like, you bail out and run away.


Good riddance, then.

:hi:

This is one of the few places where religion is questioned. If you don't like it, then tough shit.

Going out in flames with pouty insults and ridiculous non-sequiturs isn't going to make us feel any better about you.

If I play house negro will you deign to talk to me?

I will continue to post under "editorials' in which I will argue for justice for the poor and left out, the end of the wars, the just solution to the system in which the rich get richer and the poor get screwed, marriage and other rights for the GLBT community, the rights of unions and labor, the defeat of the Tea Party and the GOP---and much more, all of which have come to me out of my religious convictions.

Damn! How can I possibly top that? Being one of those nasty immoral atheists, I'll just continue to eat Xian babies, kick puppies and sodomize Bambi.

Of course, arguing for all those things on DU seems to be just another version of the self-congratulating echo chamber you wanted from this forum. If you want to participate in something even more useless and ineffectual than arguing for that stuff on DU, try prayer.

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Lots of them. The one I wrote for TMO was the very first one that got a refutation.

Classy.

A refutation that agreed with your contention that this was a rough crowd and told why?

And did you forget to mention that you told him yourself in that welcome that he needed to have his rough edges rounded off before he could do well? Or that he failed to respond to your question too?

those rough edges of his that you (not me) assumed needed smoothing out? Hardly a "nod and smile" by you, and your statement was directed right at him, while mine was not.

Let's face it, of course first of all we don't actually know for sure anything about the poster in spite of testimonials, but is appeared that he didn't quite see how an IMB works, particularly a competive and rough one like this. It also appeared he had limited internet access. Hard to know for sure one way or the other.

In a case like that, a few words to the wise can be sufficient. Like the old saying goes, "Lurk before you leap." I have a feeling that although that sort of words to the wise were available, they weren't wanted, but that's another story.

In any case, it's water under the bridge. Not the finest hour of R/T and I'm certainly not covered in glory.

Apart from other problems already noted by other posters in this thread, if you'd like a better reception from your fellow posters you might rethink the grating self-centered grandiosity of your mostly new-thread posts, maybe spend some time in a forum commenting on and contributing to existing threads instead of thinking that the best way to get involved is to waltz in with a "Hey, everybody! Aren't you happy I've shown up to get things going!" new thread, respond to little or nothing in that new thread, then start another equally obnoxious thread.

does seem to be a sub-plot here, doesn't it?

People can be moral without religion. People can figure out that it's wrong to lie, cheat and steal without reading a bible or any other religious text.

Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because they expect a reward in heaven.
It could be argued that atheists are more moral than Christians, because they do not expect a reward for doing good things.


The default position, under the rules of logic, on the existence of god is that there is no god. If you believe there is a god, it is your duty to prove it to the non-believers.

and tell us exactly what is "sad" about this situation.

clearly.

Sad that you think criticism of belief is the same as disrespect for a person. :puke:

I have only been in a theist group once by mistake.

Why do people with no interest in the group's point of view spend time there? They are different than a forum. I can't think of a reason I would want to go to the Catholic group unless I was hoping to spy on people. There's nothing there for me.

What would happen if an atheist went into one of the religion groups and started posting? I'll give you one guess.

"christian values" we hear so much about.

Look for a moment. I like to discuss. You and your cadre of friends do not want discussion of certain things, so, you stop it by being mean and mis-directing rather than engaging following posts you don't like.

We do not need to communicate further.

We love discussion. It's others that don't seem to want to discuss certain things that they determine to be untouchable.

Put me on ignore, then, if you're done with me.

Atheists are so unable to discuss anything on the topic of religion that they constantly tell other posters they have no right to be in the R/T forum.

Atheists are so unwilling to discuss certain things that we put everyone who doesn't agree with us on ignore.

Atheists are so sure that their POV is the only true progressive POV that they accuse others of being paid shills of the right.

Oh, no, wait...

Ahh, I love me some christian values.

between the Religion/Theology forum, and the various spirituality groups (there are several you may be more comfortable with, since they tend to be for people of the same viewpoint, www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=428 )

a forum labled Religion/Theology does give the first impression there will be some lively discussion on the topic. Finding instead a decidedly anti-Christian community can be a bit daunting, but it can also be a learning experience. And it is also one of the top places to come for those keeping an eye on radical atheism. So it does serve a purpose. Friendly discussion of religion, not so much.

if your definition of radical is when people don't take you seriously because you have no proof of any kind.

Now there's one for the records. Question is, do you know the difference?

I'm beginning to think you left a bridge unguarded.

were arguing that positivism had but a only a very minor connection to the Scientific Method, Bubba.

not just Christianity.
As I said in my thread, Not an Ecumenical Council.

Are we arming ourselves? Have we threatened to take control of the country and throw out all the Christians? Are we working diligently to pass laws restricting Christian's rights? What are we doing that makes us "radical"?

They are uncomfortable knowing that there are people who live without religion, and are just fine, thank you very much.
:hi:

Don't let on that we are moving cases of
rubber chickens across the country to arm
our glorious brothers and sisters.

Oh, I've just given us away.

Operation Rubber Chicken is OFF. I
repeat, OFF.

Our radical plans must all be re-written.

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B-)