Of course this makes us doubt God's existence

Sunday Telegraph
By Rowan Williams
(Filed: 02/01/2005)

The photographs that stay with us, haunt us, are always those of particular faces: one mother's grief, one child's nightmare bewilderment and loneliness. Last week, we learned in Canterbury of the death in the Asian disaster of a 14 -year old from the King's School, with her mother and grandmother. And because of that, people here experienced what had happened in a different way. The number of deaths horrifies us – but what most painfully reaches our feelings is the individual face of loss and terror.

In 1966, when the Aberfan disaster struck, I was a sixth former beginning to think about studying theology at university. I remember watching a television discussion about God and suffering that weekend – with disbelief and astonishment at the vacuous words pouring out about the nature of God's power or control, or about the consolations of belief in an afterlife or whatever.

The only words that made any sense came from the then Archbishop of Wales, in a broadcast on Welsh television. What he said was roughly this: "I can only dare to speak about this because I once lost a child. I have nothing to say that will make sense of this horror today. All I know is that the words in my Bible about God's promise to be alongside us have never lost their meaning for me. And now we have to work in God's name for the future."

He was speaking from the experience of losing one child; but he was able to speak about a much greater tragedy simply because of that, not because of having a better explanatory theory. "Making sense" of a great disaster will always be a challenge simply because those who are closest to the cost are the ones least likely to accept some sort of intellectual explanation, however polished. Why should they?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/01/02/do0201.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/02/ixportal.html

consistant proof of god's non-existance.

I don't see how any 'god' could allow so many innocent children to die. If I did believe in God this would tax my belief. Luckily I do not, so I see it as a human tragedy brought about by underestimating the force of nature in that area of the world and not having proper alerts in place to help minimize any loss of life.

before, those folks knew that building in those area's were a bad deal. but choose to do so any way, now poverty does play a part in those choices but they should put foot in their governments ass.

it's the same thing in the US, folks build right on the beach and then bitch about getting wiped out. go figure.

he'd be your mommy.

Or do you think the majority of folks who died or were wiped out and weren't tourists or hoteliers were there because they chose to be? I could be wrong, but I don't think it was a matter of choice for most people.

excuse for not issuing a warning this time, is because one was issued and nothing happened. so everybody on that beach was aware that sometimes it might get flooded, but they took a chance.

this doesn't mean I don't feel for them, I just don't blame god for our decisions.

philosophy?

"It is reasonable to assume that without plate tectonics, no planet
could be habitable."

From an absolutely fascinating article, whether one is a theist or not:
http://www.origins.org/articles/bradley_existenceofgod.html

The extraordinary fact is that belief has survived such tests again and again – not because it comforts or explains but because believers cannot deny what has been shown or given to them. They have learned to see the world and life in the world as a freely given gift; they have learned to be open to a calling or invitation from outside their own resources, a calling to accept God's mercy for themselves and make it real for others; they have learned that there is some reality to which they can only relate in amazement and silence. These convictions are terribly assaulted by all those other facts of human experience that seem to point to a completely arbitrary world, but people still feel bound to them, not for comfort or ease, but because they have imposed themselves on the shape of a life and the habits of a heart.

Most importantly in this connection, religious people have learned to look at other human faces with something of the amazement and silence that God himself draws out of them. They see the immeasurable value, the preciousness, of each life. And here is one of the paradoxes. The very thing that lies closest to the heart of a religious way of life in the world, the passion about the value of each and every life, the passion that makes religious people so obstinate and inconvenient when society discusses abortion and euthanasia – this is also just what makes human disaster so appalling, so much of a challenge to the feelings. Sometimes a secular moralist may say in contemporary debates: "Nature is wasteful of life; we can't hold to absolute views of the value of every human organism." That is not an option for the believer. That is why for the believer the uniqueness of every sufferer in a disaster such as the present one is so especially harrowing. There are no "spare" lives.

That is also why the reaction of faith is or should be always one of passionate engagement with the lives that are left, a response that asks not for understanding but for ways of changing the situation in whatever – perhaps very small – ways that are open to us. The odd thing is that those who are most deeply involved – both as sufferers and as helpers – are so often the ones who spend least energy in raging over the lack of explanation. They are likely to shrug off, awkwardly and not very articulately, the great philosophical or religious questions we might want to press. Somehow, they are most aware of two things: a kind of strength and vision just to go on; and a sense of the imperative for practical service and love. Somehow in all of this, God simply emerges for them as a faithful presence. Arguments "for and against" have to be put in the context of that awkward, stubborn persistence.

What can be said with authority about these terrible matters can finally be said only by those closest to the cost. The rest of us need to listen; and then to work and – as best we can manage it – pray.

Who the hell is God anyway? One thing that I do know is that God isn't our nanny. Maybe the victims who died are the lucky ones. It may be that they went to a better existence.

the Moslem's see such things as God TESTING their Faith.. which is a laughable concept, being if they convert they will be killed under Sharia law. so I guess, you have to keep taking more shit from god or die..:shrug:

the Christian view is just lame... it all boils down to you believe what you do because you choose to, unless you are a Moslem and you believe it or they kill.

I have heard of some converts, who said their friends and family apparently envied them, but didn't have the guts to do it themselves..

hell, in Egypt singers are murdered in public while performing for changing the rhythm of songs...because that is an abomination to god. I really feel for them.

i heard that the Right Wing Imams{spl} are using the "War on Islam" to tighten up the 'Flocks' who were evolving Islam into a "Personal experience". they fear losing control, power and wealth.. and call that a Demonic western influence.

The problem isn't Islam it is the totalitarian structure of the present religion.

us not even know all that much about our own christian faith. And most of what we hear these days about islam is western propaganda.

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Remember Fallujah!

and caring person it has value.. otherwise it is superstition and just lame crap...Used for ripping off people and manipulating them for profit and power.

I believe the Founding Fathers intended the Constitution to keep us
FREE FROM RELIGION..

Religion needs to be taught at home and in the church.. Period

leave it out of the school and the government

and this F'n MORON president is not doing either

They recognize that this transient world inescapably includes suffering and that suffering cannot be avoided. But the ultimate truth of Buddhism as I understand is discovering the capacity to joyfully participate in the sufferings of the world, work joy from loss - in other words, it is a very hopeful philosophy and faith.

"the Christian view is just lame"
You mean like this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=5780&mesg_id=5780

I'm not trying to come off as ego centric in referencing my own post twice in this thread. I apologize if that's what you decide to think of me. My point is just to illustrate that there are more ways for Christan's or anyone else to look at questions about suffering and God than just the tired old stereotypical ways. And many people do look at it differently than a lot of non-believers generally assume.

Sel

Believing God is something like a dear old daddy is kind of childlike...

If God is all-embracing as he/she must surely be he/she includes the dark side, too... And I think the concept of God is much more than our puny earthly existence.

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Remember Fallujah!

maybe a hyena is a better typecast....or a carrion vulture?.... But obviously, all this universe doesn't exist in infinite eternity, at this very exact time/place, w/out some kind of guidance or control (iow creation) as that would be mathematically impossible (that's basically thomas aquinas' proof that god exists, aint it?) tragedies like those in s. asia have beset life since ...well since before reagan raped, iow a long time ago....but in 2004 you could think that we know enough (didn't a hurricaine catastrophe just tear apart the caribbean, and parts of US?) about natural disaster to be able to react worldwide with the speed bushinc, for instance, reacts to any threats to their evil doings!....but noooo, as jon stewart puts it: NOOOOO! And god's role in mankind's intractable ignorance (ignorace is rooted in word 'ignore') especially the rich and fat piggy class, suggests God has fukked up worse then any harried, distracted bureaucrat trying to do relief logistics, And regardless of what type of person god is...he failed creation by letting the busheviks be born, live and prosper....god's a poor idiot, a loser, and his son Jesus wasted his time.
otoh i maybe wrong (?)
"Living is preparation for eternity"

on this thread that I noticed.

If this tragedy was allowed, or caused by God, what must his Heaven be like? Upwards of 100,000+ people died.
A kind benevolent God?
Or no God to be involved?

I see no contridiction in this, there are too many of us where we do not belong.